207 réponses à ce sujet

[InHarmsWay]

Shandepared wrote...

InHarmsWay wrote...

It isn't that he revealed the truth. It's the fact that he practically doomed her race to extinction!

Shepard never could have predicted the fleet would break apart. In any case breaking apart the fleet doesn't doom the race to extinction.

You talk to the admirals and they are damned split over the future over their species. Considering they are the leaders of their specie, it's doesn't take half a brain to realize that pushing them over the edge would have dire consequences.

Koris for example (a very public geth sympathesizer). An Admiral wouldn't be a geth sympatheizer, unless they were many more like him. Being a geth sympathizer would be political suicide among Quarians, so the only way he would be an Admiral was if there were many more people like him who share his point of view (which is proven true when the fleet splits).

And you must have been in a coma if you don't think the fleet spliting would cause their extinction. This weakens their fleet so when the Reapers show up, lo and behold, easy pickings.

The faction that wants to go to war will try and fight the geth but by having roughly only a third of the population, they will get slaughtered by the geth.

Most of the military will be with Gerrel, so Koris' factions will stand little chance when the Reapers show. Xen's faction will have the most scientists, but again few military. Both will not stand a chance against the Reapers.

There you go. Quarian extinction. Congratulations.

Modifié par InHarmsWay, 22 septembre 2010 - 04:59 .

[camoboy_19]

InHarmsWay wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

InHarmsWay wrote...

It isn't that he revealed the truth. It's the fact that he practically doomed her race to extinction!

Shepard never could have predicted the fleet would break apart. In any case breaking apart the fleet doesn't doom the race to extinction.

You talk to the admirals and they are damned split over the future over their species. Considering they are the leaders of their specie, it's doesn't take half a brain to realize that pushing them over the edge would have dire consequences.

Koris for example (a very public geth sympathesizer). An Admiral wouldn't be a geth sympatheizer, unless they were many more like him. Being a geth sympathizer would be political suicide among Quarians, so the only way he would be an Admiral was if there were many more people like him who share his point of view (which is proven true when the fleet splits).

And you must have been in a coma if you don't think the fleet spliting would cause their extinction. This weakens their fleet so when the Reapers show up, lo and behold, easy pickings.

The faction that wants to go to war will try and fight the geth but by having roughly only a third of the population, they will get slaughtered by the geth.

Most of the military will be with Gerrel, so Koris' factions will stand little chance when the Reapers show. Xen's faction will have the most scientists, but again few military. Both will not stand a chance against the Reapers.

There you go. Quarian extinction. Congratulations.

So I think the moral of the story is that "Ignorance is Bliss" more or less. You have a loyalty to your friend, the  Admiralty board doesnt split up the Quarians, and theres a chance for peace between Geth and the Quarians. Sometimes lying is a good thing.

[Onyx Jaguar]

There is no way you would know either way at that point. In that moment there is only one right decision, one corrupt decision and a token "I'm a lawyer hear me roar" decision.

Modifié par Onyx Jaguar, 22 septembre 2010 - 05:09 .

[JJ Long]

There is no right decision.

[Onyx Jaguar]

JJ Long wrote...

There is no right decision.

Of course there is.

Someone did something illegal in their societies norms and got their entire crew killed.  Bringing them to justice after their death is just.

[Major Truth]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

JJ Long wrote...

There is no right decision.

Of course there is.

Someone did something illegal in their societies norms and got their entire crew killed.  Bringing them to justice after their death is just.

The trial was a charade, the admiralty board were not so much interested in Tali and her alleged involvement in activating Geth, but rather the question of what should be done surrounding the Geth going forward.

Shepards role at the trial was to defend Tali and help prove her innocence. R'al broke the law in reactivating Geth and he paid for that with his life. Nobody aboard the ship lived to repeat the act, or follow up on any reasearch.

R'al was a respected admiral, held in high regard by his people and by revealing what actually happened you may sway Quarians whom previously did not think of conflict,  to war with the Geth. This would not benefit anyone

Telling the truth regardless of the consequences is not always the morally responsible thing to do. The "Tell the truth at all costs" mantra is more something that childeren are told when their growing up to help them tell right from wrong.

Their is of course also the responsibility you have towards Tali as a friend and crew mate

[Anacronian Stryx]

MACGRUBER7691 wrote...

Tali's father performed horrific and dangerous expiraments, in the hopes that it would help the quarians if they ever went to war with the geth. These expiraments came back to bite him in the ass however when the geth parts being expiramented on fought back. You know the rest.

Back at the flotilla we had to face the board that would judge tali. Tali before hand told me  not to incriminate her father, she did not want to see him get shuned. With a very high paragon score I had three choices. Blame it on tali but restore fathers honer, persuade the board that tali has already earned thier trust, and saving both tali's and her fathers loyalty. Or the choice I made revealing what tali's father did and making sure they know what would happen if they tried it again. I told them to forget the geth and move on, don't get in a war. I wanted them to know what tali's father did was wrong even if his heart was in the right place and sweeping it under the rug wouldn't solve anything. Tali rightly so was angry at me but I feel like I made the right choice, did I?

If you feel like you have made the right choice then you have.

[JJ Long]

Sometimes the lie can better serve the people than the truth. They went over this hypothetical scenario in The Dark Knight. Batman takes the blame for the murders Two-Face did rather than let the public know that Harvey Dent went insane.

[InHarmsWay]

Shandepared wrote...

InHarmsWay wrote...

You talk to the admirals and they are damned split over the future over their species. Considering they are the leaders of their specie, it's doesn't take half a brain to realize that pushing them over the edge would have dire consequences.

So do you think American Civil War II will begin in 2012 or what?

That doesn't work as an analogy.

[coinop25]

I think it's really cool that Bioware was able to set up a situation that feels like a complicated moral and ethical issue.



That said, I think it's really disappointing that, in terms of gameplay, the only "right" choices are the Paragon and Renegade options, and they're both functionally the same choice: "Dodge the question to save Tali." I would have rather been forced to face the consequences of a choice than have an obvious "instant win" button that nets me the most points, keeps everyone happiest, and (probably) sets things up best of all options for ME3.

[Xilizhra]

Shandepared wrote...

Comic-book logic at its finest.

Fictional logic for a fictional universe getting you down?

Having Tali's loyalty compromised would endanger her and others on the suicide mission, thus potentially leading to the smoothification of the entire human race. Also, if you call the admirals out, there's a definite sense that all of the ones who aren't crazy (everyone who isn't Xen) are willing to talk things out more peacefully, thus potentially leading to the quarian/geth peace that would be the optimal outcome.

That said, I think it's really disappointing that, in terms of gameplay, the only "right" choices are the Paragon and Renegade options, and they're both functionally the same choice: "Dodge the question to save Tali." I would have rather been forced to face the consequences of a choice than have an obvious "instant win" button that nets me the most points, keeps everyone happiest, and (probably) sets things up best of all options for ME3.

Every problem has a best solution.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 22 septembre 2010 - 05:17 .

[brfritos]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

JJ Long wrote...

There is no right decision.

Of course there is.

Someone did something illegal in their societies norms and got their entire crew killed.  Bringing them to justice after their death is just.

No, I agree with him, there's no right decision, there is your decision.

Tali's father was wrong in my opinion, let's make it clear, and wish he pays for his crimes.
So you are saying that I should give the evidence?
But this evidence also will bring the entire society on the verge of war against another race and this war will have a impact in the entire galaxy.

That's why it's called "politics"

[Alexein]

I think this whole scenario shows just how awesome Mass effect is as as story.



It makes us confront very big and very important moral and ethical choices.



The brute-force rules of always being truthful and honest can sometimes come in conflict with the need to save life and preserve peace. But ofcourse choosing to lie for a "greater good" calls into question your integrity and self-righteousness.



Maybe you made the choice just to keep tali loyal. Are you then extremely selfish by helping to cover-up the misguided, and possibly monstrous, experiments of an overzealous father just so you can be on good terms with his daughter?



There are other angles too, like the political nature of the trial just so the admirals can advanced their own agendas. Just because they're @sses does that let you off the hook? Is being ethical only important when facing similar people, or is being ethical a standard for you to hold yourself to and only you?





THIS is what makes Mass Effect great.

[Xilizhra]

I believe that when ethical standards clash with what would actually produce the most good in the world, they're no longer valid. This is why in DA:O, I'd support Bhelen over Harrowmont (though my dwarf noble who was personally betrayed by Bhelen may think differently).

[mopotter]

Tali is a political scapegoat. I've done the speeches, and they are moving, but I usually raly the crowd. My Shepard knows that the trial is a scam and no matter what Tali's father did, she should not have been brought to trial.



Since I always make sure Kal'Reegar survives, since Tali asked me to, and I wouldn't turn anyone over to Cerberus, Veetor and Kai'Reegar stand up and tell the Admiral's what they can do with their 'justice".



I agree with Anacronian Stryx. What every you decide is the correct response. Even if it's not what I would choose.

[Vamp-Willow]

Xilizhra wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

Comic-book logic at its finest.

Fictional logic for a fictional universe getting you down?

Having Tali's loyalty compromised would endanger her and others on the suicide mission, thus potentially leading to the smoothification of the entire human race. Also, if you call the admirals out, there's a definite sense that all of the ones who aren't crazy (everyone who isn't Xen) are willing to talk things out more peacefully, thus potentially leading to the quarian/geth peace that would be the optimal outcome.

That said, I think it's really disappointing that, in terms of gameplay, the only "right" choices are the Paragon and Renegade options, and they're both functionally the same choice: "Dodge the question to save Tali." I would have rather been forced to face the consequences of a choice than have an obvious "instant win" button that nets me the most points, keeps everyone happiest, and (probably) sets things up best of all options for ME3.

Every problem has a best solution.

:wizard:Agreed!

[coinop25]

Xilizhra wrote...

Every problem has a best solution.

If that were true, we wouldn't have a phrase for "damned if you do, damned if you don't." I suppose the go-to phrase for Mass Effect games is "the lesser of two evils" instead, but I feel like the most interesting moral choices are of the other variety (e.g., what to do about Balak in BDtS, choosing between Ash and Kaiden, and, arguably, overwriting vs. destroying the geth heretics, though something tells me they'll say the Paragon choice was the "right" decision eventually).

[kaiki01]

MACGRUBER7691 wrote...

Tali's father performed horrific and dangerous expiraments, in the hopes that it would help the quarians if they ever went to war with the geth. These expiraments came back to bite him in the ass however when the geth parts being expiramented on fought back. You know the rest.

Back at the flotilla we had to face the board that would judge tali. Tali before hand told me  not to incriminate her father, she did not want to see him get shuned. With a very high paragon score I had three choices. Blame it on tali but restore fathers honer, persuade the board that tali has already earned thier trust, and saving both tali's and her fathers loyalty. Or the choice I made revealing what tali's father did and making sure they know what would happen if they tried it again. I told them to forget the geth and move on, don't get in a war. I wanted them to know what tali's father did was wrong even if his heart was in the right place and sweeping it under the rug wouldn't solve anything. Tali rightly so was angry at me but I feel like I made the right choice, did I?

If you tell the admiralty board then Tali gets hurt.
If you don't tell them, then Tali doesn't get hurt.

With either choice it is possible for Tali not to be exiled. So I would say the right choice is not to tell them. If you do Tali is hurt and nothing is really gained. The experiments were still conducted and Tali's dad is still dead. Nothing is gained from the emotional torment you would inflict on Tali by telling.

[DPSSOC]

InHarmsWay wrote...
Koris for example (a very public geth sympathesizer). An Admiral wouldn't be a geth sympatheizer, unless they were many more like him. Being a geth sympathizer would be political suicide among Quarians, so the only way he would be an Admiral was if there were many more people like him who share his point of view (which is proven true when the fleet splits).

Last I checked Admiral, even amongst the Quarians, was a military rank not an elected position.  If Koris is an Admiral it's because he earned it, regardless of his views.  Or I guess he sucked up to the right people, either way.

InHarmsWay wrote...
And you must have been in a coma if you don't think the fleet spliting would cause their extinction. This weakens their fleet so when the Reapers show up, lo and behold, easy pickings.

The faction that wants to go to war will try and fight the geth but by having roughly only a third of the population, they will get slaughtered by the geth.

Most of the military will be with Gerrel, so Koris' factions will stand little chance when the Reapers show. Xen's faction will have the most scientists, but again few military. Both will not stand a chance against the Reapers.

There you go. Quarian extinction. Congratulations.

If they go extinct they go extinct and were meant to go extinct (one could say deserve to).  If however they decide to stop behaving like children ("I don't wanna play anymore I'm taking my ball and going home"), grow up, and realize their are bigger issues at stake than personal ideology then we should be good.

Having said that I usually call the Admirals out because Tali is a friend and has asked me not to reveal what her father did.  However I can see turning in the evidence as it is the just thing to do.  He comitted a crime, a rather serious one if Tali is to be believed, that got a lot of people killed.  His reputation, and Tali's feelings, do not elevate him above justice.

[Xilizhra]

His reputation, and Tali's feelings, do not elevate him above justice.

No, but his being dead makes "justice" kind of pointless. Nothing can punish him or resurrect the people who died on the Alarei; the data's been destroyed, so the best thing possible is to do what keeps people together.

[DPSSOC]

Xilizhra wrote...

His reputation, and Tali's feelings, do not elevate him above justice.

No, but his being dead makes "justice" kind of pointless.

 
Which is part of what keeps me from ratting the weasel out.  Disgrace in memory is small comfort to the families of the victims.

Xilizhra wrote...
Nothing can punish him or resurrect the people who died on the Alarei;

 
Says the dead Spectre

Xilizhra wrote...
the data's been destroyed, so the best thing possible is to do what keeps people together.

Again a good point, though one could argue the value of attempting to force the Quarians to take a long hard look at themselves.

[Xilizhra]

Again a good point, though one could argue the value of attempting to force the Quarians to take a long hard look at themselves.

Two looming wars may make it a bad time to do this.

[Fiery Phoenix]

All I know is that I never exiled Tali on all of my 5 playthrough's. I just didn't like the idea at all; not after what she did in ME1. 

Modifié par FieryPhoenix7, 22 septembre 2010 - 08:03 .