207 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Oh, here we go.



Koris' strategy is much safer all around, considering our knowledge of the geth's not-being-evil.

[Moiaussi]

Shandepared wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Koris' strategy is much safer all around, considering our knowledge of the geth's not-being-evil.

It's safe, but his strategy doesn't necessarily have anything to do with getting back the homeworld. He'd be just as happy to settle somewhere else. If your goal is to get the homeworld back then Xen's strategy is the best war-plan. Koris' attempts at peace should be tried first, but don't ever melt your swords into plows and shovels.

They should never be melted regardless, even if the Geth were eliminated.

[MadCat221]

Shandepared wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Koris' strategy is much safer all around, considering our knowledge of the geth's not-being-evil.

It's safe, but his strategy doesn't necessarily have anything to do with getting back the homeworld. He'd be just as happy to settle somewhere else. If your goal is to get the homeworld back then Xen's strategy is the best war-plan. Koris' attempts at peace should be tried first, but don't ever melt your swords into plows and shovels.

One problem with Xen, unfortunately: I'm not thinking she'll be amenable at all to considering the Geth as anything more than inanimate things.  If peace moves forward, expect to end up dealing with Xen in an extreme manner lest she derail the process.

Modifié par MadCat221, 23 septembre 2010 - 03:38 .

[ShadyKat]

MACGRUBER7691 wrote...

kaiki01 wrote...
If you tell the admiralty board then Tali gets hurt.
If you don't tell them, then Tali doesn't get hurt.

With
either choice it is possible for Tali not to be exiled. So I would say
the right choice is not to tell them. If you do Tali is hurt and
nothing is really gained. The experiments were still conducted and
Tali's dad is still dead. Nothing is gained from the emotional torment
you would inflict on Tali by telling.

You kind of missed my entire point. The quarians needed to know what tali's father did was wrong. They need to know that doing expiraments like that will have dire consequences. Whose to say that they won't just do the same expiraments again if they don't know what happened. I think that Talis father was trying to do what was right but what he did was wrong and had dire consequences. The quarians need to know what happens when you take advantage of and dominate another race. Apperantly they didn't learn that the first time. They just need to move on and find another world and forget about the damn geth. Sweeping what tali's father did under the rug would have done nothing to bring those issues to light. Remember those who do not learn from thier history are doomed to repeat it.

Why do you think the Quarian people would think what Tali's father did was wrong? The Geth are not alive, and have no notion of self. Plus most of the Quarian if not all I bet are fine at testing new weapons on Geth if it helps them get their world back. So imo, Shep really gains nothing by turning in the evidence. Only thing it does is hurt a trusted friend who helped you save the universe.

Modifié par ShadyKat, 23 septembre 2010 - 04:00 .

[JJ Long]

Tali's father is dead. He and the crew paid for what they were trying to do. Telling the Board what he did accomplishes no positive effects. Nothing you say will bring those dead back. There is no justice brought by giving the evidence. Some might say that it will teach the Quarians not to go down the path he went down.   Just because someone fails doesn't mean someone won't pick back up on that path. Xen appears insane enough to do just that.

The political climate was clearly off balance. Giving the evidence basically splits the fleet. Not to mention it could make the Quarians very much so question their leadership if an Admiral would try such an experiment.
The Reapers are coming, a united Quarian people would be a strong ally in a fight against them. And you as Shepard have to deal with the Collectors. Having Tali's loyalty is important to the mission and she is also your friend. To give the evidence is a betrayal to her friendship and might cost her her life.

To me, not revealing the evidence and saving Tali from exile is the best option. And that is what it is about, your opinion on the best option. I just gave my personal perspective.  This was my choice.

Everyone has their own reasons for doing what they did. There is no right answer and trying to force your opinion on others as the "right" choice to make is a bunch of crap.

There is no right choice, there is only YOUR choice.

Modifié par JJ Long, 23 septembre 2010 - 04:14 .

[Nightwriter]

I actually don't think Xen would go out of her way to make trouble if she saw that the overwhelming majority were favoring peace.

She's a nutty ambitious gal, but she can tell which way the wind is blowing.

[JJ Long]

I got the vibe she was on her own crusade rather than your average politician who does blow with the wind.

[elearon1]

I don't know, so far I've always played a Renegade and ultimately my character cares more about Tali than whether or not anyone deserves the truth. The question was never "which is the morally correct choice" but, "how do I help my friend?".



Telling the Admiralty board what happened wouldn't prevent someone from making the same mistake anyway - if history tells us anything it is that anyone can justify their actions by saying "That won't happen to me!".

[Kusy]

"Taking back the homeworld" seems like a bad idea altogether, I'm the only one who thinks it's a bit weird they don't even call it by the planet's name anymore? It's like with jews and the promised land to some point and from what Legion says it doesn't even seem like the Quarians would have to "take anything back"... more like just ask for it nicely? (for anyone suprised, take Tali and Legion to the Urdnot camp and trigger Tali's conversation, same place where Grunt's comment on Tuchanka was activated if I recall right).

Quarians decided to exterminate a newly sentient race, it's made really clear in both of the games that they attacked fitrst. There was no space left for the Geth for negotiation at that point, it was get rid of the Quarians or extinct - imagine you just gained conscience and free will years of not having it... you don't let go easily on things like that.

Quarians never even considered an option that their AI could behave peacefully, they never considered releasing Geth from slavery (because the moment they gained self awarness it's no longer ethical to make them work) and I think this is the biggest problem - instead of accepting the fact that they are more than machines and it's wrong to continue this, the assumed that the Geth will rebell IF they continue this. It's most likely right because oppression like this allways end with a rebellion, but they failed to consider that they no longer have to oppress anyone.

Another factor is that developing AI was strictly against Citadel Space rules, most likely Quarians were too ashamed or too afraid of reparations to addmit the newborn Geth as inteligent and decided it will be better to deal with them the hard way and leave no evidence of such experiments... but their quick genocide turned into a blodbath because they had no idea how far the Geth developed.

Both ways of dealing with the situation are wrong - war and attempts to reestabilish controll over the Geth, first one, as mentioned requires a base, who cares if you have the biggest fleet in the galaxy when you have nowhere you can repair ships, when you have nonmilitary personel on every one of those ships, when half of them are crumbling? It would be a kamikaze run, anything goes wrong anywhere and the whole Quarian race is done, and absolutely anything can go wrong since they don't even have proper inteligence about what they are up against while the Geth are all over the Extranet, they could track the Migrant Fleet anywhere in the galaxy as long as it's inhabited by anyone sentient enough to use an omnitool. The exacly same thing might happen while trying to permahack the Geth collective, they have no idea what they are up against. That virus we used in Legion's mission was Reaper technology, I doubt Quarians will be anywhere close the that level and we are talking about doing the same thing - altering their logic so they would be obedient.

Also, I had the feeling Xen had a very specific idea about what the Geth should be used for after they are brought under Quarian controll... and I didn't like the words "biggest synthetic army in the galaxy" comming out of her... mask. It happened before in our history, more than once, oppressed nation gets their land, gets their hands on arms, they start gettinc cocky and insted of reestabilishing economy and culture they turn itno military states and start wars around them... *cough*... *cough* jews *cough*...*cough*

Modifié par Mr.Kusy, 23 septembre 2010 - 12:00 .

[brfritos]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

This a potentially destructive society to begin with. Setting themselves up with isolation. Isolation leads to failure. Their leaders continuing hostile and aggressive acts against their primary opponent that could lead to their destruction (as it does in that isolated case) is testament to this.

This is absolutely not true, the quarians are isolated because they lost their homeworld and the prejudice of the galaxy, not because they want to.
You can see this on the Citadel with the struggling quarian and in the first ME1, when Udina explains this to Shepard.

Also they send their youngs on travels (Pilgrimage) to learn how the galaxy works and because they don't want them to become isolate.
And they had a embassy on the Citadel before, remember?

It's the opposite of what you say.

Daro'Xen is in favor to use the data you collect in Tali's loyalty mission to enslave the Geth again.
Han'Gerrel and Rael'Zorah are in favor of war.
Shala'Raan is inclined in peacefull solutions - and she states is against the war, but fear not having enough power to prevent it - as well Zaal'Koris.

So you can see this is not a homogeneous group, with all the same "destructive and isolationist" ideas.

Yes, the Quarians made a mistake and are prejudice against the Geth, but you have the opportunity to make things better and try to unity them.
And your better idea is to let them kill each other, by turning a evidence that could have the possibility to start a war or make things worse?

Modifié par brfritos, 23 septembre 2010 - 12:41 .

[Uber Rod]

Mr.Kusy wrote...

"Taking back the homeworld" seems like a bad idea altogether, I'm the only one who thinks it's a bit weird they don't even call it by the planet's name anymore? It's like with jews and the promised land to some point and from what Legion says it doesn't even seem like the Quarians would have to "take anything back"... more like just ask for it nicely? (for anyone suprised, take Tali and Legion to the Urdnot camp and trigger Tali's conversation, same place where Grunt's comment on Tuchanka was activated if I recall right).

Quarians decided to exterminate a newly sentient race, it's made really clear in both of the games that they attacked fitrst. There was no space left for the Geth for negotiation at that point, it was get rid of the Quarians or extinct - imagine you just gained conscience and free will years of not having it... you don't let go easily on things like that.

Quarians never even considered an option that their AI could behave peacefully, they never considered releasing Geth from slavery (because the moment they gained self awarness it's no longer ethical to make them work) and I think this is the biggest problem - instead of accepting the fact that they are more than machines and it's wrong to continue this, the assumed that the Geth will rebell IF they continue this. It's most likely right because oppression like this allways end with a rebellion, but they failed to consider that they no longer have to oppress anyone.

Another factor is that developing AI was strictly against Citadel Space rules, most likely Quarians were too ashamed or too afraid of reparations to addmit the newborn Geth as inteligent and decided it will be better to deal with them the hard way and leave no evidence of such experiments... but their quick genocide turned into a blodbath because they had no idea how far the Geth developed.

Both ways of dealing with the situation are wrong - war and attempts to reestabilish controll over the Geth, first one, as mentioned requires a base, who cares if you have the biggest fleet in the galaxy when you have nowhere you can repair ships, when you have nonmilitary personel on every one of those ships, when half of them are crumbling? It would be a kamikaze run, anything goes wrong anywhere and the whole Quarian race is done, and absolutely anything can go wrong since they don't even have proper inteligence about what they are up against while the Geth are all over the Extranet, they could track the Migrant Fleet anywhere in the galaxy as long as it's inhabited by anyone sentient enough to use an omnitool. The exacly same thing might happen while trying to permahack the Geth collective, they have no idea what they are up against. That virus we used in Legion's mission was Reaper technology, I doubt Quarians will be anywhere close the that level and we are talking about doing the same thing - altering their logic so they would be obedient.

Also, I had the feeling Xen had a very specific idea about what the Geth should be used for after they are brought under Quarian controll... and I didn't like the words "biggest synthetic army in the galaxy" comming out of her... mask. It happened before in our history, more than once, oppressed nation gets their land, gets their hands on arms, they start gettinc cocky and insted of reestabilishing economy and culture they turn itno military states and start wars around them... *cough*... *cough* jews *cough*...*cough*

Well the reason the Quarians attacked first was because AI research was banned by the Council. If it came to light that they had created AI beings, they would be in a huge pile of crap. So they panicked and tried to wipe out the Geth before the Council could find out. And they lost.

However it seems that at the present if they approach the Geth peacefully and apologized and ask to live on their homeworld, they would be allowed to. But most Quarians still want to try a military approach that is doomed and will weaken both races when the Reapers arrive.

But back to the original topic. I always figure with the loyalty missions that it is their mission and I'm just there to help. I will do whatever they want because it's their show. Because that will get me their loyalty, which I need above all else.

Modifié par Uber Rod, 23 septembre 2010 - 12:44 .

[Asheer_Khan]

Another Geth vs Quarians war would be similar to battle using WW I ships against modern Carrier Task Force.



Quarians chance of surviving direct battle with Geth Assault fleet = close to zero.

Peace in this case means trust, and you can't just have trust. It needs to be earned, it needs to be guaranteed. Right now neither side has any reason to trust the other and with good reason.

Problem is that Geth are machines free from any kind of emotions when Quarians still hold thier grudges for what happened 300 years early, so if there is side which in this case CAN'T be trusted then Quarians like Xen.



Did anyone try to figured out why Geth never attacked Migrant Fleet during this entire time despite fact that they poses in off power to simply steamroll Quarians?

Furthermore i think Xen greatly overestimated her chances and her behavior put Fleet at really high risk.

Not only because she follow on path leading to Flotilla's destruction but as well made her potential target of Council fleet if they would (and soon or later news about Quarians continued toying with AI would reach Citadel) learn about her plans.... and that's why i will not hesitate to remove her (if there will be such necessity) from board as Security threat for Migrant Fleet.

[nelly21]

Actually, the geth didn't destroy the Migrant Fleet because they don't know where the hell it is. No one does. They use shifting coordinates and set up in remote systems.

To be honest, I really don't think of the geth as people so to the OP, no, I don't think you did the right thing. Rael was trying to find a way to win a war that looks impossible for them to win. These "attrocities" he commited were putting together inactive geth in order to figure out the best way to do that. Am I a criminal when I replace the cpu in my computer? No.

Hell, if you guys insist that geth are living things then technically, they should of thanked Rael. They were junk when he got them and he brought them back to life.

Modifié par nelly21, 23 septembre 2010 - 01:40 .

[Kusy]

Shandepared wrote...
Sure, kid, if only it were that easy. Peace in this case means trust, and you can't just have trust. It needs to be earned, it needs to be guaranteed. Right now neither side has any reason to trust the other and with good reason.

Thank you Captain Obvious. Your faithfull companion Sarcasm Boy is right behind you.
Following your optimistic logic, there would be no peace in the universe, ever, and people would never leave their homes... since thre's no such thing as good will.

Also, Legion is as individual as individuality goes amongst the Geth... but still he is voice of the whole nation, he only provides data, he doesn't have his own opinion on things - it's the Geth opinion, he's the ultimate emissary. If he says that True Geth (nonheretic) have no intention of violence towards the creators or any other organics, we have no reason not to belive him.

[Kusy]

nelly21 wrote...

Actually, the geth didn't destroy the Migrant Fleet because they don't know where the hell it is. No one does. They use shifting coordinates and set up in remote systems.

To be honest, I really don't think of the geth as people so to the OP, no, I don't think you did the right thing. Rael was trying to find a way to win a war that looks impossible for them to win. These "attrocities" he commited were putting together inactive geth in order to figure out the best way to do that. Am I a criminal when I replace the cpu in my computer? No.

Hell, if you guys insist that geth are living things then technically, they should of thanked Rael. They were junk when he got them and he brought them back to life.

And that's bullpoop. Geth are hooked on extranet, information about Migrant Fleet's coordinates are transmited there everytime Quarians get near any inhabited system as a warning. It's a) Geth don't have the resources to directly attack the Fleet, they are bussy with something else, c) they don't have such plans.

[Kusy]

Shandepared wrote...

Mr.Kusy wrote...

Also, Legion is as individual as individuality goes amongst the Geth... but still he is voice of the whole nation, he only provides data, he doesn't have his own opinion on things - it's the Geth opinion, he's the ultimate emissary. If he says that True Geth (nonheretic) have no intention of violence towards the creators or any other organics, we have no reason not to belive him.

He implies the geth have no intention of pre-meditated violence against the creators. However he makes it clear that the geth will only accept peace if they are certain the quarains will stick to it. This means that if at any point the geth decide they no longer trust the quarians that they'll attack.

With this in mind the quarians cannot easily trust the geth. They'll be living in the fear that they might one day inadvertently provoke another mass genocide like they did the first time.

Captain Obvious is necessary in this case because concepts which should come naturally to you evade you. I'm here to help. Call it tough love.

That is why I'm generaly against Quarians goint back to their homeworld, They shouldn't go to war and they shouldn't stick to that planet like it was some kind of a holly grail. As a matter of speculation, if the Quarian Fleet would be able to build a peace with the Geth and sucessfully communicate with them on peacefull level (without necesairly living in the same space with them) they would take credit for removing one of the biggest know potential threats to the council, they could as well settle down on some garden planet and ask for help from outside when it comes to aclimatization. They are too closed for offworld (offfleet?) help to maintain a civilization even if they recapture the homeworld. Tali is talking about ages they would need to spend on aclimatization... I'm sure it would take less with help from the council, terraforming and genetical enchancments wise... again IF THEY WOULD ASK FOR IT. But they feel so offended and wronged that they preffer to throw their whole species in an egoistical attempt at reclaming a long lost planet... just because they want to see the sunrise with their own eyes in this generation. That's ducking selfish isn't it?

[Asheer_Khan]

Shandepared wrote...

Asheer_Khan wrote...

Another Geth vs Quarians war would be similar to battle using WW I ships against modern Carrier Task Force.

Quarians chance of surviving direct battle with Geth Assault fleet = close to zero.

You of-course base this theory on absolutely nothing.

Yesss... i already see 300 years old junkie ships blowing up vaves of advanced Geth Assault ships...<_<.

In case you didn't noticed Migrant Fleet consist in MAJORITY civilian and transport ships... and seeing how [airquote] great fighters Quarians are [/airquote] on Freedoms Progres (whole team wiped out by single MIRV because one of them try to play a "hero") or Haelstrom i really thing that Quarians should be protected from themselfs... because slowly i think that in thier quest to reclaim homeworld they completely lost reality check...

[nikki191]

the admirals to me lost all integrity when they used a trial of tali as a pissing match over whether to go to war, none of them deserved the truth and the right action for me was to call them out on their actions