207 réponses à ce sujet

[Asheer_Khan]

I maintain that if the Admirals are even considering war then they've already determined victory in war is at least viable.

War without access to strategic industrial resources, food reserves, shipyards to fix damaged ships and build new ones... and of course being on the constant risk of attack from Citadel Fleet if  Council start to think that Quarians plans to repeat path from before Morinig War... so yes... odds for Quarian victory in two front war are very promising...<_<

Modifié par Asheer_Khan, 23 septembre 2010 - 03:21 .

[GenericPlayer2]

I agree with the OP. Of course revealing the truth is the correct course of action. The Quarians fragment somewhat after that but that is not your concern. Those who say otherwise see Shepard as a father/mother figure for the Quarians - as if it was Shep's job to lie to them for their own good or hold their hands.



Due to the rabid legions of fans that Tali has, the "have your cake and eat it too options" is the most popular. Bioware really missed an opportunity to have a tough choice in the game and instead provided 3 ways a player could get Tali acquitted and keep the secret.

[Eldareus]

Giving the losing record the Quarians have against the Geth, it would be mass suicide for the Quarians even to comtemplate a war against the Geth. I agree with Qwib-Qwib on this. The Quarians should have focus all their attention on genetically altering their race to improve their weak immunity issues and then find a new world to colonize.

[Xilizhra]

Those who say otherwise see Shepard as a father/mother figure for the Quarians

Shepard's one for the entire galaxy. Keeping the quarians together is nothing special, and if nothing else, having Tali's mind be stable during the suicide mission is safest for the entire team.

[InvaderErl]

GenericPlayer2 wrote...

I agree with the OP. Of course revealing the truth is the correct course of action. The Quarians fragment somewhat after that but that is not your concern. Those who say otherwise see Shepard as a father/mother figure for the Quarians - as if it was Shep's job to lie to them for their own good or hold their hands.

Due to the rabid legions of fans that Tali has, the "have your cake and eat it too options" is the most popular. Bioware really missed an opportunity to have a tough choice in the game and instead provided 3 ways a player could get Tali acquitted and keep the secret.

Its is COMPLETELY your concern. Perhaps you missed the part where Shep is all "stay united because the Reapers are coming", I did my best to keep the major races on track for the game - the Rachni, the Quarians and the Krogan all.

I think a Shepard who ends up destabilizing the regional powers with a Reaper invasion on the horizon is a short sighted Shepard.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 23 septembre 2010 - 05:44 .

[Lebrine]

I made the decision of not telling them, I didn't see the benefits to causing a mass panic and betrayel of a friend. If they decide to go mess later then thats up to them. I done the right thing at the time as far as im concerned

[mopotter]

GenericPlayer2 wrote...

I agree with the OP. Of course revealing the truth is the correct course of action. The Quarians fragment somewhat after that but that is not your concern. Those who say otherwise see Shepard as a father/mother figure for the Quarians - as if it was Shep's job to lie to them for their own good or hold their hands.

Due to the rabid legions of fans that Tali has, the "have your cake and eat it too options" is the most popular. Bioware really missed an opportunity to have a tough choice in the game and instead provided 3 ways a player could get Tali acquitted and keep the secret.

Rabid fans?  silly.  Not all who don''t tell about her father are rabid devoted fans.   I like her but she has died in at least one of my game and I didn't restart to save her.  I disagree with this label totally.  

As for the choices, they are fine just the way they are.  Want to tell them, great, you can do so.  Don't want to tell them, then don't.  Talk to the 3 admiral's before you leave and you can tell where they stand.  One would continue the experiments for war purposes; one would continue in order to turn back time and control the geth and one would be appalled.  Find the information and you can tell what they will do with it.  

If Shepard feels the truth must be told no matter what, then that Shepard is also acting as mother/father figure feeling that the children must be told the truth no matter how much it hurts.  Parents both lie and tell the truth.

My Shepard is not there to do anything except show the Quarian population, that it's a sham of a trial,  and that they are using Tali as a political pawn.   Because as Shepard tells Tali, she would never do anything to endanger the Migrant Fleet.  

[brfritos]

nelly21 wrote...

Hell, if you guys insist that geth are living things then technically, they should of thanked Rael. They were junk when he got them and he brought them back to life.

Again this "geth are not living beens" thing? 

Then answear to me why aborting a baby is called "killing" and aborting a chicken egg is called "omelet"?

- Polite

[kaiki01]

brfritos wrote...

nelly21 wrote...

Hell, if you guys insist that geth are living things then technically, they should of thanked Rael. They were junk when he got them and he brought them back to life.

Again this "geth are not living beens" thing? 

Then answear to me why aborting a baby is called "killing" and aborting a chicken egg is called "omelet"?

- Polite

Because hens can lay unfertilized eggs that can never turn into chicks. The eggs you use to turn into omelets are unfertilized. That is the difference.

[InHarmsWay]

Uber Rod wrote...

Mr.Kusy wrote...

"Taking back the homeworld" seems like a bad idea altogether, I'm the only one who thinks it's a bit weird they don't even call it by the planet's name anymore? It's like with jews and the promised land to some point and from what Legion says it doesn't even seem like the Quarians would have to "take anything back"... more like just ask for it nicely? (for anyone suprised, take Tali and Legion to the Urdnot camp and trigger Tali's conversation, same place where Grunt's comment on Tuchanka was activated if I recall right).

Quarians decided to exterminate a newly sentient race, it's made really clear in both of the games that they attacked fitrst. There was no space left for the Geth for negotiation at that point, it was get rid of the Quarians or extinct - imagine you just gained conscience and free will years of not having it... you don't let go easily on things like that.

Quarians never even considered an option that their AI could behave peacefully, they never considered releasing Geth from slavery (because the moment they gained self awarness it's no longer ethical to make them work) and I think this is the biggest problem - instead of accepting the fact that they are more than machines and it's wrong to continue this, the assumed that the Geth will rebell IF they continue this. It's most likely right because oppression like this allways end with a rebellion, but they failed to consider that they no longer have to oppress anyone.

Another factor is that developing AI was strictly against Citadel Space rules, most likely Quarians were too ashamed or too afraid of reparations to addmit the newborn Geth as inteligent and decided it will be better to deal with them the hard way and leave no evidence of such experiments... but their quick genocide turned into a blodbath because they had no idea how far the Geth developed.

Both ways of dealing with the situation are wrong - war and attempts to reestabilish controll over the Geth, first one, as mentioned requires a base, who cares if you have the biggest fleet in the galaxy when you have nowhere you can repair ships, when you have nonmilitary personel on every one of those ships, when half of them are crumbling? It would be a kamikaze run, anything goes wrong anywhere and the whole Quarian race is done, and absolutely anything can go wrong since they don't even have proper inteligence about what they are up against while the Geth are all over the Extranet, they could track the Migrant Fleet anywhere in the galaxy as long as it's inhabited by anyone sentient enough to use an omnitool. The exacly same thing might happen while trying to permahack the Geth collective, they have no idea what they are up against. That virus we used in Legion's mission was Reaper technology, I doubt Quarians will be anywhere close the that level and we are talking about doing the same thing - altering their logic so they would be obedient.

Also, I had the feeling Xen had a very specific idea about what the Geth should be used for after they are brought under Quarian controll... and I didn't like the words "biggest synthetic army in the galaxy" comming out of her... mask. It happened before in our history, more than once, oppressed nation gets their land, gets their hands on arms, they start gettinc cocky and insted of reestabilishing economy and culture they turn itno military states and start wars around them... *cough*... *cough* jews *cough*...*cough*

Well the reason the Quarians attacked first was because AI research was banned by the Council. If it came to light that they had created AI beings, they would be in a huge pile of crap. So they panicked and tried to wipe out the Geth before the Council could find out. And they lost.

However it seems that at the present if they approach the Geth peacefully and apologized and ask to live on their homeworld, they would be allowed to. But most Quarians still want to try a military approach that is doomed and will weaken both races when the Reapers arrive.

But back to the original topic. I always figure with the loyalty missions that it is their mission and I'm just there to help. I will do whatever they want because it's their show. Because that will get me their loyalty, which I need above all else.

This is why I hate the Council with a passion. The Quarians were pressured into killing all Geth because of that anti-AI law. I actually don't see anything in Council history to give reason why they should ban AIs. No Terminator style wars.

[AdamNW]

Pacifien wrote...

AdamNW wrote...
There was no reason to tell the rest of the board, because it was an isolated incident.

The email you get from Daro'Xen after not revealing the evidence indicates otherwise.

I don't Metagame, thank you very much.

[AdamNW]

cachx wrote...

MACGRUBER7691 wrote...
You kind of missed my entire point. The quarians needed to know what
tali's father did was wrong. They need to know that doing expiraments
like that will have dire consequences.

The thing is, if you tell what Tali's father was doing, the result is that the Flotilla fractures and separates, potentially dooming them. (You find this by talking to Tali later).

The problem is that the game gives you no indication that is going to happen.

My first time through the game I delivered the evidence because it seemed like the paragon thing to do. The results were so bad I reloaded the game and did the whole mission again.

I know I just said I don't metagame (if you want to consider this as such), but the option WAS in the renegade part of the wheel...

[MACGRUBER7691]

InHarmsWay wrote...

Uber Rod wrote...

Mr.Kusy wrote...

"Taking back the homeworld" seems like a bad idea altogether, I'm the only one who thinks it's a bit weird they don't even call it by the planet's name anymore? It's like with jews and the promised land to some point and from what Legion says it doesn't even seem like the Quarians would have to "take anything back"... more like just ask for it nicely? (for anyone suprised, take Tali and Legion to the Urdnot camp and trigger Tali's conversation, same place where Grunt's comment on Tuchanka was activated if I recall right).

Quarians decided to exterminate a newly sentient race, it's made really clear in both of the games that they attacked fitrst. There was no space left for the Geth for negotiation at that point, it was get rid of the Quarians or extinct - imagine you just gained conscience and free will years of not having it... you don't let go easily on things like that.

Quarians never even considered an option that their AI could behave peacefully, they never considered releasing Geth from slavery (because the moment they gained self awarness it's no longer ethical to make them work) and I think this is the biggest problem - instead of accepting the fact that they are more than machines and it's wrong to continue this, the assumed that the Geth will rebell IF they continue this. It's most likely right because oppression like this allways end with a rebellion, but they failed to consider that they no longer have to oppress anyone.

Another factor is that developing AI was strictly against Citadel Space rules, most likely Quarians were too ashamed or too afraid of reparations to addmit the newborn Geth as inteligent and decided it will be better to deal with them the hard way and leave no evidence of such experiments... but their quick genocide turned into a blodbath because they had no idea how far the Geth developed.

Both ways of dealing with the situation are wrong - war and attempts to reestabilish controll over the Geth, first one, as mentioned requires a base, who cares if you have the biggest fleet in the galaxy when you have nowhere you can repair ships, when you have nonmilitary personel on every one of those ships, when half of them are crumbling? It would be a kamikaze run, anything goes wrong anywhere and the whole Quarian race is done, and absolutely anything can go wrong since they don't even have proper inteligence about what they are up against while the Geth are all over the Extranet, they could track the Migrant Fleet anywhere in the galaxy as long as it's inhabited by anyone sentient enough to use an omnitool. The exacly same thing might happen while trying to permahack the Geth collective, they have no idea what they are up against. That virus we used in Legion's mission was Reaper technology, I doubt Quarians will be anywhere close the that level and we are talking about doing the same thing - altering their logic so they would be obedient.

Also, I had the feeling Xen had a very specific idea about what the Geth should be used for after they are brought under Quarian controll... and I didn't like the words "biggest synthetic army in the galaxy" comming out of her... mask. It happened before in our history, more than once, oppressed nation gets their land, gets their hands on arms, they start gettinc cocky and insted of reestabilishing economy and culture they turn itno military states and start wars around them... *cough*... *cough* jews *cough*...*cough*

Well the reason the Quarians attacked first was because AI research was banned by the Council. If it came to light that they had created AI beings, they would be in a huge pile of crap. So they panicked and tried to wipe out the Geth before the Council could find out. And they lost.

However it seems that at the present if they approach the Geth peacefully and apologized and ask to live on their homeworld, they would be allowed to. But most Quarians still want to try a military approach that is doomed and will weaken both races when the Reapers arrive.

But back to the original topic. I always figure with the loyalty missions that it is their mission and I'm just there to help. I will do whatever they want because it's their show. Because that will get me their loyalty, which I need above all else.

This is why I hate the Council with a passion. The Quarians were pressured into killing all Geth because of that anti-AI law. I actually don't see anything in Council history to give reason why they should ban AIs. No Terminator style wars.

That is not an excuse for exterminating sentient beings. That'd be like saying since using child labor is illeagal the sweatshop bosses have an excuse to kill all thier kids if they are in danger of being discovered. The quarians are the ones at fault here not the council.

[brfritos]

kaiki01 wrote...

brfritos wrote...

nelly21 wrote...

Hell, if you guys insist that geth are living things then technically, they should of thanked Rael. They were junk when he got them and he brought them back to life.

Again this "geth are not living beens" thing? 

Then answear to me why aborting a baby is called "killing" and aborting a chicken egg is called "omelet"?

- Polite

Because hens can lay unfertilized eggs that can never turn into chicks. The eggs you use to turn into omelets are unfertilized. That is the difference.

Do you understand the concept of "irony", right? 

Hummm...let's see...

Geth alone have the the intelligence of a animal, but they have consciousness. If you  join one thousand of them this make them more intelligent.
Because of this Legion tells you that the ultimate goal of the Geth is to build a massive structure similar to Reapers ships, so all the AI's can be togheter since geth hubs are ineficient.

They don't have the technology to do this yet and wish to achive it by themselves, not because other entity wants give to them.

Even when they are alone they still have consciousness, albeit the intelligence aspect is diminished, as Legion also explains to you.
But they stil have awareness of themselves.
So, if humans are considered different from a animal because of this and is considered a sapient creature, why the geth aren't?

[kaiki01]

brfritos wrote...

kaiki01 wrote...

brfritos wrote...

nelly21 wrote...

Hell, if you guys insist that geth are living things then technically, they should of thanked Rael. They were junk when he got them and he brought them back to life.

Again this "geth are not living beens" thing? 

Then answear to me why aborting a baby is called "killing" and aborting a chicken egg is called "omelet"?

- Polite

Because hens can lay unfertilized eggs that can never turn into chicks. The eggs you use to turn into omelets are unfertilized. That is the difference.

Do you understand the concept of "irony", right? 

Hummm...let's see...

Geth alone have the the intelligence of a animal, but they have consciousness. If you  join one thousand of them this make them more intelligent.
Because of this Legion tells you that the ultimate goal of the Geth is to build a massive structure similar to Reapers ships, so all the AI's can be togheter since geth hubs are ineficient.

They don't have the technology to do this yet and wish to achive it by themselves, not because other entity wants give to them.

Even when they are alone they still have consciousness, albeit the intelligence aspect is diminished, as Legion also explains to you.
But they stil have awareness of themselves.
So, if humans are considered different from a animal because of this and is considered a sapient creature, why the geth aren't?

I think I have heard of irony...

www.youtube.com/watch

and your analogy of the human embryo and the chicken egg is still fallacious

[MrnDvlDg161]

I don't know... hasn't anyone ever discovered the truth about something and decided to tell the other person something different in order to keep the peace or by-pass a bad situation? I have. The truth indeed sometimes hurts but there is also a gray area here in that...sometimes, just because you can do it doesn't mean you should.

In this case, Tali wants her father to be remembered as the hard working man of the fleet that he was for years... then you have the current political situations of the migrant fleet to take into account as well. So what do you do. I believe that not only covering for the old man and keeping some stability to the Migrant fleet is a win win situation although in the E-mail afterwards, its clearly stated that the more militant group of the Quarians are going to use it...and even a threat that the Humans also have missed a chance at a super weapon of some kind.  --- was the right one.

If someone was willing to throw their life on the line with me against impossible odds even when they didn't have to then I think its only justified and right to defend that person when they are found in a nasty situation --- its what brothers and sisters forged from combat are supposed to do. 

Unless your flat out wrong, but in this case, there wasn' t a concrete  Paragon or Renegade in my view.

In the end I thought the choice of saving Tali's father's name as well as telling the trial council to go F-off because she faced an unfair, stacked court that wanted fixed answers...not things that would actually promote justice for Tali.

Its the same grey area when you decide to keep Thane's son under the radar with the C-Sec captain.

Modifié par MrnDvlDg161, 24 septembre 2010 - 04:59 .

[nikki191]

Ive been thinking a lot about the quarian choice to try and stop the geth initially.. honestly i think i would of ordered the same thing.. yes with hindsight we know now the geth are willing at least to live in peace with the quarians, but up until meeting legion all we really knew about the geth was that they were trying to kill organics, pretty much like every other AI in the game world...

honestly if faced with the realisation that your robots were becoming self aware and potentially were across all your inhabited worlds would you let them? when there is a very real possibility of them going skynet on you and proceeding to slaughter every organic in sight.

the geth can be seen as a successful transition for robotics making the leap to self aware non organic life but the risk is still there it could of gone even worse than it did, resulting in the extermination of the quarians and eventually all organic life.

would you risk your life on letting the geth achieve self awareness? would you risk your family? your entire species?

people often say you should always tell the truth.. but when it hurts those close to you? or can fracture an entire species? hard questions to answer

i have to applaud bioware for the story arc with the geth and the quarians, for people to be discussing this, debating the ethics, opinions, etc of this says alot about their story telling ability when people walk away from the game and still play over the choices and consequences in their mind.. kudos bioware

Modifié par nikki191, 24 septembre 2010 - 05:36 .

[nikki191]

MrnDvlDg161 wrote...

I don't know... hasn't anyone ever discovered the truth about something and decided to tell the other person something different in order to keep the peace or by-pass a bad situation? I have. The truth indeed sometimes hurts but there is also a gray area here in that...sometimes, just because you can do it doesn't mean you should.

In this case, Tali wants her father to be remembered as the hard working man of the fleet that he was for years... then you have the current political situations of the migrant fleet to take into account as well. So what do you do. I believe that not only covering for the old man and keeping some stability to the Migrant fleet is a win win situation although in the E-mail afterwards, its clearly stated that the more militant group of the Quarians are going to use it...and even a threat that the Humans also have missed a chance at a super weapon of some kind.  --- was the right one.

If someone was willing to throw their life on the line with me against impossible odds even when they didn't have to then I think its only justified and right to defend that person when they are found in a nasty situation --- its what brothers and sisters forged from combat are supposed to do. 

Unless your flat out wrong, but in this case, there wasn' t a concrete  Paragon or Renegade in my view.

In the end I thought the choice of saving Tali's father's name as well as telling the trial council to go F-off because she faced an unfair, stacked court that wanted fixed answers...not things that would actually promote justice for Tali.

Its the same grey area when you decide to keep Thane's son under the radar with the C-Sec captain.

i hope to crush admiral morrigan's plans with kal reagor, tali and legion backed by quarian marines and geth primes in ME3 .. shapeshift your way out of that!

Modifié par nikki191, 24 septembre 2010 - 05:39 .

[Moiaussi]

Shandepared wrote...

Asheer_Khan wrote...

Another Geth vs Quarians war would be similar to battle using WW I ships against modern Carrier Task Force.

Quarians chance of surviving direct battle with Geth Assault fleet = close to zero.

You of-course base this theory on absolutely nothing.

Ah yes, your theory that the Quarians have managed to completely modernize their fleet without the benefit of any bases, stardocks, or colonies, while the Geth who have all those facilities and resource sources have done absolutely nothing for 300 years.

And your theory is based on what, exactly?

[Moiaussi]

InHarmsWay wrote...

This is why I hate the Council with a passion. The Quarians were pressured into killing all Geth because of that anti-AI law. I actually don't see anything in Council history to give reason why they should ban AIs. No Terminator style wars.

I don't recally the Council position regarding AI's being any part of Tali's defence of her people's starting the Morning War. It is logical that it could have been a concern, but is there any actual evidence? Near as I can tell that is just rampant anti-Geth propeganda. It is not even clear if that law pre-dated the Morning War or if it was enacted in response to said war.

[GuardianAngel470]

MACGRUBER7691 wrote...

I guess the driving point for me was to make sure the admiralty board knew what caused the geth attacks. I wanted them to know so they wouldn't just do the expiraments again. What would be the point of telling just one person. Everyone on the board needs to know why this was wrong. Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Your problem is assuming they would.  They have had 300 years to accept their mistake in attacking the Geth but have they? No.  What makes you think they would recognize what Rael did was wrong?

[Tony_Knightcrawler]

I got Tali exonerated of the charges without telling the truth about her dad to anyone. Not something I would normally do, but it's Tali, and the one responsible is already dead; telling the truth wouldn't have helped anyone.

[MACGRUBER7691]

Tony_Knightcrawler wrote...

I got Tali exonerated of the charges without telling the truth about her dad to anyone. Not something I would normally do, but it's Tali, and the one responsible is already dead; telling the truth wouldn't have helped anyone.

Warning the quarians about dangerous research, informing them that the attack was not unprovoked and involved the geth defending themselves thus lessening the quarians anger, giving warning to admiralty board to keep watch out for expiramentation, telling them the negativs of going down the path of war, making xen's push for developing technology for war in political jepordy I don't know about you but those sound like some good benifits to telling the truth. Yes I know tali would be hurt and I didn't want that but I did what I thought was best for the quarians, the geth and peace. If you lie to the quarians they think it was an unprovoked and planned attack by the geth increasing thier anger and you give them no warning against the dangers of expiramenting on geth.

Modifié par MACGRUBER7691, 24 septembre 2010 - 10:22 .

[MACGRUBER7691]

[quote]MACGRUBER7691 wrote...

[quote]Tony_Knightcrawler wrote...

I got Tali exonerated of the charges without telling the truth about her dad to anyone. Not something I would normally do, but it's Tali, and the one responsible is already dead; telling the truth wouldn't have helped anyone.[/quote]

Warning the quarians about dangerous research, informing them that the attack was not unprovoked and involved the geth defending themselves thus lessening the quarians anger, giving warning to admiralty board to keep watch out for expiramentation, telling them the negativs of going down the path of war, putting xen's push for developing technology for war in political jepordy I don't know about you but those sound like some good benifits to telling the truth. Yes I know tali would be hurt and I didn't want that but I did what I thought was best for the quarians, the geth and peace. If you lie to the quarians they think it was an unprovoked and planned attack by the geth increasing thier anger and you give them no warning against the dangers of expiramenting on geth.

Modifié par MACGRUBER7691, 24 septembre 2010 - 10:24 .