207 réponses à ce sujet

[Moiaussi]

Shandepared wrote...

If the Council couldn't find the motivation to attack the geth when they were slaughtering the quarians in the billions, if they couldn't find the motivation to attack the geth when they were invading Attican Traverse and stealing Prothean beacons, if they couldn't find the motivation to attack the geth after they attacked the Citadel and killed tens of thousands, then I don't think they'll find the motivation to attack the quarians if the quarians attack the geth.

That war was over before it began, and too quickly for the Council to mobilize and intervene. They might have been able to avenge, but there was suggestion that the Council was not certain of victory, so they took a defensive posture instead.

After the attack on the Citadel, they were too busy rebuilding to consider themselves ready to mobilize, and by the time ME2 starts, there has been no sign of any further attacks, so they put it all down to Saren's influence and convinced themselves that the Geth were not a major threat without an outside influence (they were more or less right, but for the wrong reasons. It was the lack of Sovereign rather than Saren).

They are still rebuilding the fleets though, two years later, which should give some indication of the magnitude of the losses.

[Moiaussi]

Shandepared wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

That war was over before it began, and too quickly for the Council to mobilize and intervene.

Tali says the war was long and bloody.

There is no suggestion that the Council was not sure of victory. The reason given for them not destroying the geth was that they felt the quarians had attempted genocide when they tried to shut them down.

I don't remember that, but I'll take your word for it on the length. I do remember though the Council being reluctant lest it become another Rachnii or Krogan situation. The bit about the Quarians deserving it was more rationalization than strategy.

[InHarmsWay]

Moiaussi wrote...

InHarmsWay wrote...

This is why I hate the Council with a passion. The Quarians were pressured into killing all Geth because of that anti-AI law. I actually don't see anything in Council history to give reason why they should ban AIs. No Terminator style wars.

I don't recally the Council position regarding AI's being any part of Tali's defence of her people's starting the Morning War. It is logical that it could have been a concern, but is there any actual evidence? Near as I can tell that is just rampant anti-Geth propeganda. It is not even clear if that law pre-dated the Morning War or if it was enacted in response to said war.

The AI law existed long before the Morning War. It's in the codex.
Even Tali mentions that. Though they never explained why the Council
enacted the law. Tali clearly says that the major reason why her people
tried to destroy the geth was to avoid punishment by said law.

[Moiaussi]

InHarmsWay wrote...

The AI law existed long before the Morning War. It's in the codex.
Even Tali mentions that. Though they never explained why the Council
enacted the law. Tali clearly says that the major reason why her people
tried to destroy the geth was to avoid punishment by said law.

The law is in the codex, but not when it was created. Tali doesn't clearly say anything of the sort either. She says that the Geth were treated as slaves and therefore were sure to rebel, therefore the Quarians had to strike first.

If you can cite evidence to the contrary, please do so. I am pretty certain I posted Tali's dialogue regarding the war in a prior war/Geth related thread, but could likely find it again if need be.

[Dean_the_Young]

In general, my summation of views:



If you believe that a war between the Quarians and the Geth is inevitable, Tali's Father's research could be vital for a Quarian victory.



If you believe that a war with the Geth in general is inevitable (such as, say, a Shepard who has no reason to believe there is such a thing as 'Heretics', and rather that the Geth will fight again), the Alarai research could be vital for galactic survival in order to defeat a Reaper ally.



In short, if you haven't recruited Legion and don't know the situation of the Heretics, then the Alarai research looks more and more necessary in the long run. You don't have basis to believe in the Geth split, and whatever the Quarians past crimes the Geth are a clear and present danger.



It's only after Legion comes into the picture, and if you trust him, that things get a bit more muddled. Still plenty of reasons to preserve the Alarai data (you don't trust the Geth, you don't think the Geth as a whole wouldn't split in the face of peace much like the Quarians, you think the Quarians will go to war anyway and you'd rather they win conclusively, etc.).

[Moiaussi]

Shandepared wrote...

From where? I don't remember that at all. Give me a source.

That isn't part of the conversation I posted before, so will have to dig a little deeper.

Tali's dialog implies the law was already in place. If when she's explaining
how the geth became sentient you respond with "Why didn't the Council
step in and stop you?" Tali replies that nothing the quarians were doing
was technically illegal.

Actually she defends the research decisions based on the AI result being unintentional (starting at about 6:08 in this recording).

The rational for the war occurs at around 8:15, and is purely on the assumption the Geth would violently oppose their having been treated as slaves, pre-awakening.

[DPSSOC]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
In short, if you haven't recruited Legion and don't know the situation of the Heretics, then the Alarai research looks more and more necessary in the long run. You don't have basis to believe in the Geth split, and whatever the Quarians past crimes the Geth are a clear and present danger.

I'm afraid I must disagree.  The Geth threat is in the process of clean up so one could easily view them as an annoyance rather than a true threat.  If the Geth believed Sovereign was their god why would they not send everything they had for his grand strike against the organics?  Presumably with no or few reinforcements coming from beyond the Veil and those this side scattered and disorganized it's entirely reasonable for Shepard to assume the Geth threat is over.

[Dean_the_Young]

DPSSOC wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
In short, if you haven't recruited Legion and don't know the situation of the Heretics, then the Alarai research looks more and more necessary in the long run. You don't have basis to believe in the Geth split, and whatever the Quarians past crimes the Geth are a clear and present danger.

I'm afraid I must disagree.  The Geth threat is in the process of clean up so one could easily view them as an annoyance rather than a true threat. If the Geth believed Sovereign was their god why would they not send everything they had for his grand strike against the organics?  Presumably with no or few reinforcements coming from beyond the Veil and those this side scattered and disorganized it's entirely reasonable for Shepard to assume the Geth threat is over.

Because lord forbid the Geth actually, I don't know, reconsolidate and rebuild. Honestly, I don't think you thought this through yet, or else you have very scewed views of reasonable threat assessment.

 The Geth threat is only defeated if you think that their invasion was all they would ever have. No one, Alliance or Council, has even tried to take out Geth space: nothing has been done about the Geth defense forces, the Geth factories, the Geth resource extractors, the Geth research efforts. All of the means of war for the Geth remain intact: all that was beaten was their initial invasion force. Saying that with the loss of it the Geth threat is gone is as rational as saying that if the US got kicked out of Iraq and Afghanistan, it could do nothing else again.


Why did the Geth not send 'everything' with Sovereign? Any number of reasons can be found, ranging from impracticality (clogging the relays that were to be shut anyway) to alrady being spread out in a galaxy-wide conventional war to machine-logic strategy (too obvious a buildup) to machine-logic who knows what else (a desire to protect their flanks). They only need one reason of 'why not'.

[brfritos]

kaiki01 wrote...

I think I have heard of irony...

www.youtube.com/watch

and your analogy of the human embryo and the chicken egg is still fallacious

Why I'm fallacious?

Chicken are decent and people are not. 

[Moiaussi]

Shandepared wrote...

Right. Your point being?

I think it is to be expected that the quarians were more worried about the potentially violent and destructive A.I.'s arising in their midst than they were about possible Council sanctions.

My point is that Tali doesn't mention any concern about Council sanctions at all. There is no hint at all that was even considered, contrary to suggestions otherwise made in this thread.

[Moiaussi]

Shandepared wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

My point is that Tali doesn't mention any concern about Council sanctions at all.

I never said she did so why argue with me about it?

InHarmsWay did, and you (possibly inadvertantly) stepped into that part ot this thread disagreeing with me. Hence you get argued with about it

[CroGamer002]

MACGRUBER7691 wrote...

Tali's father performed horrific and dangerous expiraments, in the hopes that it would help the quarians if they ever went to war with the geth. These expiraments came back to bite him in the ass however when the geth parts being expiramented on fought back. You know the rest.

Back at the flotilla we had to face the board that would judge tali. Tali before hand told me  not to incriminate her father, she did not want to see him get shuned. With a very high paragon score I had three choices. Blame it on tali but restore fathers honer, persuade the board that tali has already earned thier trust, and saving both tali's and her fathers loyalty. Or the choice I made revealing what tali's father did and making sure they know what would happen if they tried it again. I told them to forget the geth and move on, don't get in a war. I wanted them to know what tali's father did was wrong even if his heart was in the right place and sweeping it under the rug wouldn't solve anything. Tali rightly so was angry at me but I feel like I made the right choice, did I?

Modifié par Mesina2, 25 septembre 2010 - 06:12 .

[Moiaussi]

Shandepared wrote...

What I said however you did not disprove. I'll repeat: at one point in the conversation Shepard can ask why the Council did not step in and stop the quarians before the geth ever became sentient. Tali replies that nothing the quarians were doing was illegal.

The implication is that the Council's A.I. laws were in existence before the Morning War.

I effectively conceded that point in my reply. In point of fact, the option Shepard had (even if it wasn't specificly what he said) was 'aren't AI's illegal).

Now I never said that fear of Council reprisal was the main reason that the quarians tried to shut the geth down. So in that case I agree with you. If they considered that at all it would be after they assessed the immediate more physical threat the geth represented.

You might not have, but the context was that of the other poster making such a claim, so since the link agreeing with you was also evidence backing my position against said other poster, I felt it prudent to mention that as part of the same post, rather than make two posts

[elearon1]

So? The point is the Quarians perceived the Geth as a building threat and wanted to stamp them out before they could become a self aware peoples and were still machines. Tali states that they did not realize just how far the Geth had progressed until they were at war - so it wasn't so much genocide as attempting to destroy a malfunctioning tool.



Considering the way the war turned out, the Quarians are understandably lacking any sympathy for the Geth - and the Geth themselves have done little to engender any good will from the other races.



What it comes down to is the Quarians identified a growing threat and preemptively struck to try and eradicate it before it was too late ... any intelligent race is going to do the same. Taking a "let's wait and see" approach is never the better option in such a situation. Not to mention, if they had been silly enough to wait and try to build good relations with the Geth - knowing nothing about how the race would evolve and perceive their creators - they would have still been in breach of the Council laws restricting the creation of AI's and tossed into yet another mess. (I can well see the Council asking "Why didn't you terminate the Geth at the first indication they might be progressing toward AI status, rather than waiting for them to achieve it?") Politically it would have been a mess no matter what they did.

[Nightwriter]

I'm not sure how you can say that immediately killing them is the better option and a "wait and see" approach isn't when deciding to kill them cost millions of quarian lives, cost everything.

[elearon1]

The result turned out worse than expected - but possibly no worse than it might have if they'd waited. (there is simply no way to know) Any time a race goes to war it takes the chance it will be defeated, but naturally you don't go in expecting to lose. (at least you try not to)

[Nightwriter]

If they had waited I honestly believe things would have turned out better. The geth were innocent at this time - incredibly innocent. I think it would've taken a substantial amount of time for them to start processing such notions as "freedom" and "revolt". They were only just beginning to understand the world around them.

Pretty much the only thing that could've compelled them to action is if they saw they were about to be destroyed.

[Nightwriter]

My. This is an awful lot of reading matieral you have assigned me.

... Yes, I can see why you'd like this text.

So I suppose I'm to believe that the quarians absolutely had to try and kill the geth because a fight for survival was imminent at some point, and the rift between synthetics and organics was too great for there to ever be peace.