207 réponses à ce sujet

[elearon1]

Because they could only assume that a fight would ultimately emerge if the Geth developed a sense of self preservation - because the Geth would see how different they were from everything else, and the distrust the rest of the galaxy had for them. They would be given a choice - wait and hope nobody decides we are a threat and wipes us out, or be proactive and eliminate our most immediate threats while simultaneously demonstrating not only a will, but an ability to fight for survival. It is a very logical course of thought and so one that would occur quickly to any artificial intelligence. And if that intelligence decided to research the history of the other galactic species first it would only find evidence to support its logic.



Additionally, two intelligent species developing on the same planet are going to come into conflict over resources and both are going to imagine they have rights to those resources. Even if the Geth only decided they had claim to half the planet's resources (how long would that last?) that would mean the Quarians must surrender 50% of their resources - thus putting a strain on their society. Because it is unlikely you'll ever convince the Geth not to partake of their "fair share", you will have no choice but to fight with them over it ... and if you have the chance it is always better to crush a potential enemy while it is still building its resources than wait until it is established.



Again, they simply were not prepared for how effective the Geth would be in a war.

[Nightwriter]

But that is not what I am saying at all. I am saying it is unwise to try to destroy a synthetic race without finding out how intelligent it's become or how far along in its development it is.

If you have cause to shut them down, you have cause to find out if trying to shut them down will trigger a sentient attack.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 25 septembre 2010 - 10:13 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Nightwriter wrote...

I'm not sure how you can say that immediately killing them is the better option and a "wait and see" approach isn't when deciding to kill them cost millions of quarian lives, cost everything.

That's a purely retroactive outlook which ignores the context and the weight of considerations at the time of the choice. It also misses that the Quarians could have actually lost everything, including extinction, had they waited longer and things gone wrong. Trying to shut off the Geth wasn't a clearly doomed option that obviously would lead to near extinction: the Quarians thought  that the majority of Geth would simply respond to the turn off commands, and that only a few might resist and need to be turned off by force. Not that they would be faced with a Geth-wide rebellion: that was their fear if they didn't act now, and then 'negotiations' didn't work. Trying to prevent the worst led to the worst, but it wasn't an obvious foreseen consequence.


Sometimes the best/safest choice can lead to the worst outcome simply because you make choices without perfect understanding (which, as a concept, is impossible to ever make). In the case of the Quarians, they didn't know just how fast, how far, and how wide the Geth had developed. Waiting might have told them more... or might not of, and simply made them more desperate as well.

[DPSSOC]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Because lord forbid the Geth actually, I don't know, reconsolidate and rebuild. Honestly, I don't think you thought this through yet, or else you have very scewed views of reasonable threat assessment.

 

A little from column A a little from column B.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
The Geth threat is only defeated if you think that their invasion was all they would ever have. No one, Alliance or Council, has even tried to take out Geth space: nothing has been done about the Geth defense forces, the Geth factories, the Geth resource extractors, the Geth research efforts. All of the means of war for the Geth remain intact: all that was beaten was their initial invasion force. Saying that with the loss of it the Geth threat is gone is as rational as saying that if the US got kicked out of Iraq and Afghanistan, it could do nothing else again.

Let's review what Shepard knows about the battle of the Citadel.  The battle was their big push, the one strike that was to end the conflict (bring the Reapers) so it stands to reason that all of their forces, minus what was protecting Ilos perhaps, would have been present.  So their loss, and subsequent issues with the Alliance, would have devastated their military capabilities.  Now they can still rebuild but that's going to take time..

Furthermore with their leader, their god, destroyed there's reason to believe it will give them pause.  It won't stop them but it makes direct confrontatiln less appealing.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Why did the Geth not send 'everything' with Sovereign? Any number of reasons can be found, ranging from impracticality (clogging the relays that were to be shut anyway) to alrady being spread out in a galaxy-wide conventional war to machine-logic strategy (too obvious a buildup) to machine-logic who knows what else (a desire to protect their flanks). They only need one reason of 'why not'.

True.

[Tony_Knightcrawler]

MACGRUBER7691 wrote...

Tony_Knightcrawler wrote...

I got Tali exonerated of the charges without telling the truth about her dad to anyone. Not something I would normally do, but it's Tali, and the one responsible is already dead; telling the truth wouldn't have helped anyone.

Warning the quarians about dangerous research, informing them that the attack was not unprovoked and involved the geth defending themselves thus lessening the quarians anger, giving warning to admiralty board to keep watch out for expiramentation, telling them the negativs of going down the path of war, making xen's push for developing technology for war in political jepordy I don't know about you but those sound like some good benifits to telling the truth. Yes I know tali would be hurt and I didn't want that but I did what I thought was best for the quarians, the geth and peace. If you lie to the quarians they think it was an unprovoked and planned attack by the geth increasing thier anger and you give them no warning against the dangers of expiramenting on geth.

The Quarians already knew that there were experiments going on onboard the ship, so it could be surmised that what provoked the attack wasn't necessarily in the norm of Geth activity. You are right about making sure they knew the Geth were acting in self-defense, though. However, I still was able to tell them no to go to war.

As far as the fate of the research, I figured if I told them that'd make them want to continue the research even more. Turns out that even if you don't tell anyone, the research is still found.

[Schattenkeil]

Many folks in this thread seem to believe that it would somehow be safer in the interest of Quarians to accuse Tali's father. I wouldn't know how that may be. The Quarians are aware that the Tali's father analyzed Geth parts to develop better weapons against Geth. They do have the result of their research. The do know that the Geth somehow became active and networked and thus took over the ship. They do not know how or why if you don't tell them. I don't quite see how knowing that Tali's father is to blame would make them become more careful. I think the loss of a ship should be enough evidence that you gotta be careful with Geth.

As for the email you get, as far as I remember it's just about using the research results for further study, not about assembling more geth in the middle of the fleet.

[Spectre_907]

Getting Tali exiled is the ethical thing to do. Never turn your closest friends and allies into enemies for the sake of blind adherence to the truth. Exile makes the most political sense as well. The evidence is too detrimental to the fleet in its current state to reveal publicly.

[Schattenkeil]

Hm. You can prevent Tali from being exiled without revealing the truth about her father. Depends on your "heroic" and "renegade" score though.

[Wildhide]

Schattenkeil wrote...

Hm. You can prevent Tali from being exiled without revealing the truth about her father. Depends on your "heroic" and "renegade" score though.

While I tend to prefer Paragon charms, I do have to say the Renegade one is so much better here.  I just like seeing Shepard say "Screw you guys, I'm going home!"

[lovgreno]

There are no right or wrong choices in the Mass Effect games. But personaly I think this was an internal quarian problem where a quarian like Tali are better to make the decision. So I trusted her judgment in the matter and kept the truth about Rael Zorahs actions secret and used a renegade or paragon dialouge option to convince the admirals to drop the issue. But this is a typical case of seeing whatever you want in the situations.

[Giggles_Manically]

I only use the rally the crowd option.

It just seems so silly to go:

RAAGHGHAGH! YOU DONT NEED TO SEE OUR EVIDENCE!!! YOURE ALL A BUNCH OF MEANIE FACES!

We dont need to see his evidence.



urgh.

[Spectre_907]

Schattenkeil wrote...

Hm. You can prevent Tali from being exiled without revealing the truth about her father. Depends on your "heroic" and "renegade" score though.

I simply cannot wrap my mind around the fact that Tali can be exonerated without any evidence just by yelling at the Admirals about how innocent Tali's past service makes her, so I ignore it.

[Siansonea]

I LOVE tattling on Rael'Zorah. It sends Buckethead into a tailspin, and it's always nice to see her upset. Then I can send her through the vents and she'll die. Gravy!

[anubis969]

DPSSOC wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Because lord forbid the Geth actually, I don't know, reconsolidate and rebuild. Honestly, I don't think you thought this through yet, or else you have very scewed views of reasonable threat assessment.

 

A little from column A a little from column B.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
The Geth threat is only defeated if you think that their invasion was all they would ever have. No one, Alliance or Council, has even tried to take out Geth space: nothing has been done about the Geth defense forces, the Geth factories, the Geth resource extractors, the Geth research efforts. All of the means of war for the Geth remain intact: all that was beaten was their initial invasion force. Saying that with the loss of it the Geth threat is gone is as rational as saying that if the US got kicked out of Iraq and Afghanistan, it could do nothing else again.

Let's review what Shepard knows about the battle of the Citadel.  The battle was their big push, the one strike that was to end the conflict (bring the Reapers) so it stands to reason that all of their forces, minus what was protecting Ilos perhaps, would have been present.  So their loss, and subsequent issues with the Alliance, would have devastated their military capabilities.  Now they can still rebuild but that's going to take time..

Furthermore with their leader, their god, destroyed there's reason to believe it will give them pause.  It won't stop them but it makes direct confrontatiln less appealing.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Why did the Geth not send 'everything' with Sovereign? Any number of reasons can be found, ranging from impracticality (clogging the relays that were to be shut anyway) to alrady being spread out in a galaxy-wide conventional war to machine-logic strategy (too obvious a buildup) to machine-logic who knows what else (a desire to protect their flanks). They only need one reason of 'why not'.

True.

Well one thing to consider in regards to the Geth's current military strength is that the Geth that followed Sovereign were only a small percentage of the Geth.

These Heretics as they were called no doubt suffered a major blow during the battle of the Citadel however as the "true" Geth never took part, their forces will be mostly undamaged. Also for the "true" Geth Sovereigns death only served to strengthen their believes. It proved that the reapers are not gods, and more importantly; they can die.
 
One more thing, the entire Geth threat ceased during Legions loyalty mission. At least for the far see able future anyway as the Heretics no longer exist regardless of which choice you make and the "true" Geth have little interest in organics. They're quite happy in their corner of the galaxy living in isolation. For now anyway.

Of cause when I say the Geth are no longer a threat this is assuming that no one is foolish enough to attack them .

[NICKjnp]

Siansonea II wrote...

I LOVE tattling on Rael'Zorah. It sends Buckethead into a tailspin, and it's always nice to see her upset. Then I can send her through the vents and she'll die. Gravy!

I like to take Legion's side and send her into the vents.  Gravy with a big of cranberry sauce!

[Moiaussi]

Spectre_907 wrote...

I simply cannot wrap my mind around the fact that Tali can be exonerated without any evidence just by yelling at the Admirals about how innocent Tali's past service makes her, so I ignore it.

Past and present service. She did take down the Geth that multiple full Quarian squads were not able to handle. The facts are that she didn't send any active Geth parts back to the fleet, so if she was convicted, it would have just been on circumstantial evidence anyway.

The fact remains that she was innocent, she really is the Quarian's leading authority on Geth, and when Admiral Xen revealed the 'master plan' of controlling the Geth (exactly what her father was researching), Tali's response was 'You're insane," which indicates a lack of motive.

If they do choose to go to war against the Geth, they would need Tali's expertise. She hacks and fights real Geth, not just 'frankenGeth' rebuilt from spare parts in some lab, which Quarian regulars weren't able to take down.

On what basis do you feel Tali should have been convicted? Simply the fact that she sent things back to her dad?

[Pacifien]

I do believe discussing sending Tali through the vents (as I have seen a couple people do on this page alone) is another aspect of the game beyond the original topic of what to do during her loyalty mission. In fact, I can think of only one reason why you'd pay particular attention to that part of the game in this thread so stop doing it. Reacquaint yourself with the site rules, particularly section 3.

Modifié par Pacifien, 29 septembre 2010 - 05:02 .

[JaegerBane]

Schattenkeil wrote...

Many folks in this thread seem to believe that it would somehow be safer in the interest of Quarians to accuse Tali's father. I wouldn't know how that may be. The Quarians are aware that the Tali's father analyzed Geth parts to develop better weapons against Geth. They do have the result of their research. The do know that the Geth somehow became active and networked and thus took over the ship. They do not know how or why if you don't tell them. I don't quite see how knowing that Tali's father is to blame would make them become more careful. I think the loss of a ship should be enough evidence that you gotta be careful with Geth.

As for the email you get, as far as I remember it's just about using the research results for further study, not about assembling more geth in the middle of the fleet.

Exactly. I think certain posters are getting themselves locked into a mode of thinking that justice must be served irrespective of how much damage it does or the lack of benefit it brings.

Everyone who deserved to be punished for the antics on the Alairai is already dead. Lecturing the Admirality about the experiments doesn't make them any more cautious of experimenting with Geth than they were already (evidenced by the fact that the entire trial is being pursued on that very charge of bringing Geth to the fleet).

Shep revealing the truth and prancing around like he's bloomin' Captain America undermines the unity of the Quarian Fleet (and thus weakening a potential future ally), it ruins the strength of mind of one of his team mates (and thus lessening the chances of success in his own mission) and gains him absolutely *nothing* in return. It's an act of pure, unadulterated stupidty on every level. The only actual defence for it is if Shep is a literal imbecile and he isn't intelligent enough to correctly assess the situation, in which cas he should be in home somewhere being looked after, not in charge of a state-of-the-art stealth destroyer on a mission to save the galaxy.

Hiding the truth and giving the admiralty a telling off accomplishes all objectives. The threat of the Geth alone will be enough to deter any sensible quarian from attempting the same work (lunatics like Daro'Xen are going to try it no matter what, so trying to please her is a lost cause). The Admiralty (and to a lesser extent, the Conclave) are shaken out of trying to run a show trial to serve ulterior motives, the safety and security of the fleet is maintained, Tali is left with the full knowledge of the confidence and trust that the admiralty have in her (and therefore has something to fight for) and hence is left in the best possible state of mind for the Collector mission. It's abjectly clear that hiding the truth is the optimal method of handling the situation.

 

Modifié par JaegerBane, 29 septembre 2010 - 08:34 .

[JaegerBane]

Shandepared wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

On what basis do you feel Tali should have been convicted? Simply the fact that she sent things back to her dad?

Interesting that Tali had to risk her life to find proof of her innocence or else be convicted, as opposed to the court needing to prove her guilt in order to convict her. Quarians have a backwards legal system.

Freakin' barbarians.

I think it's made clear in the mission that the entire trial was effectively illegal and/or baseless.

Indeed, unless I misunderstood, that is Shepard's entire point when he makes the Paragon argument - that ultimately, this trial is trying to convict not just any member of the fleet, but a member in good standing, based on nothing more than assumptions, for no other reason than to serve an agenda. It didn't even match the actual definition of a trial, and therefore was both meaningless and symptomatic of a greater problem.

[Dean_the_Young]

It was a politically motivated farce, but it was a legal farce.

Most civil trials put the burden of proof on the accuser, but military tribunals work from the other direction: when accused, the defendant has to prove their innocence. The Quarian structure, still nominally under military law, reflects that: Tali send geth parts, geth overran the ship, and so it's up to her to prove that she followed protocols properly.

Paragon Shepard wasn't making an argument that the trial was illegal. He, and Renegade Shep, were attacking the underlying motivations for the trial, which were clearly not related to whether Tali was wrong or not. Perhaps Tali could have been tried on those grounds, but she wasn't. Compare it to if you have the authority to force someone to do something, but rather than use it because it needs to be done you use it because you want to punish someone you dislike. Same authority, unacceptable usage.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 29 septembre 2010 - 01:08 .

[Moiaussi]

It is almost too bad that Shepard couldn't have chided the Quarians for sticking to martial law. They lost their war 300 years ago, yet seem to think they are still fighting it.

Modifié par Moiaussi, 29 septembre 2010 - 01:10 .

[Skyblade012]

Actually, I think the best decision may be to reveal the truth. It's the one thing that actually seems to help slow down Admiral Xen. As much as I like her, she's one crazy lady. If she succeeds in rewriting the geth, a lot is going to go wrong.



Also, did anyone else realize that if you don't talk to the admirals before you leave for the Alarei, the dialogue at the end changes quite a bit, since the war isn't publically revealed?

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...

It is almost too bad that Shepard couldn't have chided the Quarians for sticking to martial law. They lost their war 300 years ago, yet seem to think they are still fighting it.

They are still fighting it.

Tali's conversations in ME1 imply that, while varying from ship to ship, civil law and democracy largely do reign across the Flotilla. The Admiralty Board, after all, can only overrule the elected officials on condition of losing their posts. Treason trials are rare and already exceptional as it is, and as Tali says usually only come with a very strong indication of wrong doing.