157 réponses à ce sujet

[Stanley Woo]

Lord Gremlin wrote...

Hm, why so secretive about budget anyway? We just wish to know what scale we're talking about - huge budget, like 40,60, 100 millions dollars, or something way smaller, like around 10 millions.

It's not like we want to judge the game by budget, like people usually do it for movies...

Because ultimately, a project's budget is a business decision that has absolutely no effect on you, the consumer. no matter how big or small the budget is, no matter what we do wtih it or how we allocate those funds, you won't care as long as the finished product is released adn you either buy it or don't.

In short, you don't make your buying decisions based on a game's budget and it's really none of your business.

[Rubbish Hero]

Yea, it's none of your business.

[AlanC9]

Sarah, would you please stop equating Bio's old fans with yourself. I find it extremely annoying

[Sanzee]

It's probably about 15-18 million

[David Gaider]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
And you wonder why I find most of your replies condescending. When EA shutters you guys in 5 years after the addh crowd gets bored of Bioware games and moves on to something else, maybe you'll care again about the old fans.

It has very little to do with entitlement, obviously you guys are going to, and should make the game you want to make, I would just hope you'd keep a few of the old timer's likes in mind. But apparently thats soooo much to ask, and makes one an elitist. Ok sure there Gaider whatever you say.

No, the part that makes you an elitist is the part where you assume that anyone who isn't an "old timer" (these people who you seem to speak for and who you threaten will abandon us if we don't give them what 'they' want) is an... what's one of the phrases you used? One of the "addh crowd"? So they're essentially action-addicted simpletons? Not as loyal as the old timers, not as smart or as worthwhile providing anything for?

That doesn't seem elitist to you?

I get that you want what you want. It's one thing to say, however, that we can and should make the game we want to make and quite another to actually give that concept more than lip service in the rest of your post. My calling you on your codescension towards people who don't like what you like is not condescending, despite your assertation. I don't think I'm better than you, nor do I think the "old timers" aren't worth providing content for (as I do, in fact, think there's plenty for them here to love). I do think, however, that your attitude is unfortunately self-serving.

[ENolan]

David Gaider wrote...

The Director wrote...
Ouch. Talk about customizing your fireballs, huh? I can feel the scroch marks from here. But if I ever saw real response to something, THIS would be it.

What? I'm just making my opinion known. Can't be anything wrong with that.

I never said there was anything wrong with that. I should have added a subtitlle to my comment: I'm so used to people coddling other people even when they obviously don't mean it that your statement was rather refreshing.

Sorry, I have spent a lot of time watching and in the wrong forums of a different place. It's oftentimes atrocious the replies people make there.

[JeanLuc761]

David Gaider wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
And you wonder why I find most of your replies condescending. When EA shutters you guys in 5 years after the addh crowd gets bored of Bioware games and moves on to something else, maybe you'll care again about the old fans.

It has very little to do with entitlement, obviously you guys are going to, and should make the game you want to make, I would just hope you'd keep a few of the old timer's likes in mind. But apparently thats soooo much to ask, and makes one an elitist. Ok sure there Gaider whatever you say.

No, the part that makes you an elitist is the part where you assume that anyone who isn't an "old timer" (these people who you seem to speak for and who you threaten will abandon us if we don't give them what 'they' want) is an... what's one of the phrases you used? One of the "addh crowd"? So they're essentially action-addicted simpletons? Not as loyal as the old timers, not as smart or as worthwhile providing anything for?

That doesn't seem elitist to you?

Unfortunately, a lot of people seem to have that attitude which is, of course, amplified by internet anonymity.  I recall the same whining and elitism with Mass Effect 2 and it was just as pointless then as it is now.

Glad to see you guys standing up for yourselves and not taking any BS.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

David Gaider wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
And you wonder why I find most of your replies condescending. When EA shutters you guys in 5 years after the addh crowd gets bored of Bioware games and moves on to something else, maybe you'll care again about the old fans.

It has very little to do with entitlement, obviously you guys are going to, and should make the game you want to make, I would just hope you'd keep a few of the old timer's likes in mind. But apparently thats soooo much to ask, and makes one an elitist. Ok sure there Gaider whatever you say.

No, the part that makes you an elitist is the part where you assume that anyone who isn't an "old timer" (these people who you seem to speak for and who you threaten will abandon us if we don't give them what 'they' want) is an... what's one of the phrases you used? One of the "addh crowd"? So they're essentially action-addicted simpletons? Not as loyal as the old timers, not as smart or as worthwhile providing anything for?

That doesn't seem elitist to you?

I get that you want what you want. It's one thing to say, however, that we can and should make the game we want to make and quite another to actually give that concept more than lip service in the rest of your post. My calling you on your codescension towards people who don't like what you like is not condescending, despite your assertation. I don't think I'm better than you, nor do I think the "old timers" aren't worth providing content for (as I do, in fact, think there's plenty for them here to love). I do think, however, that your attitude is unfortunately self-serving.

Way to blow what I said out of proportion David. Its not the end of the world either way, I'll prolly still buy DA2 regardless, because I usually enjoy Bioware games. So no I wouldn't say this old fan is abandoning you. But if the game leaves me with a ME2 taste, well, I prolly won't enjoy it much personally. Which would be a shame since Origins is a great game.

Why wouldn't my attitude be self serving? I'm speaking for my likes and desires, or should I just blindly praise like half of the people on this forum do?  Gotta love the Politically Correct generation where god forbid you criticise something, its the end of the world.  

[AlanC9]

SteveGarbage wrote...

That is true - the animation is one variable that I can't account for and I doubt that would be one I could turn up data on what it costs. I have no idea how they do lip-synching type stuff from the developer side. I have this assumption that it's probably tedious and time consuming work, which is where you would rack up a lot of hours. But again, it's lip synching for two characters (although large characters) among a cast of hundreds. I can't speak to those costs and they probably are there.

Hmm.... I'm not sure "two among a cast of hundreds" is a good way to talk about this. Most conversations in the game involve the PC, don't they? Cutscenes won't , and banter between party members won't. But what percentage of the total dialogs would that be?

Let's say 80% of all dialog in the game involves the PC. Unless the PC has less words than the people he's talking to -- obviously true in DAO, but not in DA2 -- then we need to add another 160%, assuming there are two PC voices.

It's really not like adding a couple of new characters.

@ Sarah: Is DG really blowing what you said out of proportion? I thought he read it about right. Then again, I'm one of the folks you personally insulted so I might not be all that objective here.

Modifié par AlanC9, 24 septembre 2010 - 07:17 .

[JrayM16]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
And you wonder why I find most of your replies condescending. When EA shutters you guys in 5 years after the addh crowd gets bored of Bioware games and moves on to something else, maybe you'll care again about the old fans.

It has very little to do with entitlement, obviously you guys are going to, and should make the game you want to make, I would just hope you'd keep a few of the old timer's likes in mind. But apparently thats soooo much to ask, and makes one an elitist. Ok sure there Gaider whatever you say.

No, the part that makes you an elitist is the part where you assume that anyone who isn't an "old timer" (these people who you seem to speak for and who you threaten will abandon us if we don't give them what 'they' want) is an... what's one of the phrases you used? One of the "addh crowd"? So they're essentially action-addicted simpletons? Not as loyal as the old timers, not as smart or as worthwhile providing anything for?

That doesn't seem elitist to you?

I get that you want what you want. It's one thing to say, however, that we can and should make the game we want to make and quite another to actually give that concept more than lip service in the rest of your post. My calling you on your codescension towards people who don't like what you like is not condescending, despite your assertation. I don't think I'm better than you, nor do I think the "old timers" aren't worth providing content for (as I do, in fact, think there's plenty for them here to love). I do think, however, that your attitude is unfortunately self-serving.

Way to blow what I said out of proportion David. Its not the end of the world either way, I'll prolly still buy DA2 regardless, because I usually enjoy Bioware games. So no I wouldn't say this old fan is abandoning you. But if the game leaves me with a ME2 taste, well, I prolly won't enjoy it much personally. Which would be a shame since Origins is a great game.

Why wouldn't my attitude be self serving? I'm speaking for my likes and desires, or should I just blindly praise like half of the people on this forum do?  Gotta love the Politically Correct generation where god forbid you criticise something, its the end of the world.  

No one is saying that you can't criticize the game.  I encourage such criticism since it provides me with some moderately intellectually stimulating debate.  

However,  with a statement like the one I have bolded and underlined for you, I don't think you can claim that David blew anything that out of proportion.  You explicitly stated a prediction that Bioware will be shut down by EA in a few years because of the changing game market.  David was in my opinion generous to continue his conversation with you after you proclaimed that his job and livelyhood will be destroyed because of his company's current direction. 

Before you go after me by saying that you didn't intend that statement like that, I'll say that I would believe you.  The intent of that statement was probably not meant as I and most others would initially interpret it, that you left out context that would make the statement seem less offensive.  I hope so, because such an accusation is extremely callous, especially in these bad economic times, and belittles your entire argument.

Moving on from that, I would like to address your actual argument.  While you may not realize it consciously, everything in you and others' arguments comes back to entitlement.   What is you justification for wanting Bioware to make more of a game you want to play?  It is that you are a loyal, longtime fan of their games.  However, this is basically entitlement, whether you realize it or not. 

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

AlanC9 wrote...
@ Sarah: Is DG really blowing what you said out of proportion? I thought he read it about right. Then again, I'm one of the folks you personally insulted so I might not be all that objective here.

I never said I spoke for every old fan, just myself and the few I've talked to who didn't much care for ME2. Sorry that you took it so personal.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

JrayM16 wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
And you wonder why I find most of your replies condescending. When EA shutters you guys in 5 years after the addh crowd gets bored of Bioware games and moves on to something else, maybe you'll care again about the old fans.

It has very little to do with entitlement, obviously you guys are going to, and should make the game you want to make, I would just hope you'd keep a few of the old timer's likes in mind. But apparently thats soooo much to ask, and makes one an elitist. Ok sure there Gaider whatever you say.

No, the part that makes you an elitist is the part where you assume that anyone who isn't an "old timer" (these people who you seem to speak for and who you threaten will abandon us if we don't give them what 'they' want) is an... what's one of the phrases you used? One of the "addh crowd"? So they're essentially action-addicted simpletons? Not as loyal as the old timers, not as smart or as worthwhile providing anything for?

That doesn't seem elitist to you?

I get that you want what you want. It's one thing to say, however, that we can and should make the game we want to make and quite another to actually give that concept more than lip service in the rest of your post. My calling you on your codescension towards people who don't like what you like is not condescending, despite your assertation. I don't think I'm better than you, nor do I think the "old timers" aren't worth providing content for (as I do, in fact, think there's plenty for them here to love). I do think, however, that your attitude is unfortunately self-serving.

Way to blow what I said out of proportion David. Its not the end of the world either way, I'll prolly still buy DA2 regardless, because I usually enjoy Bioware games. So no I wouldn't say this old fan is abandoning you. But if the game leaves me with a ME2 taste, well, I prolly won't enjoy it much personally. Which would be a shame since Origins is a great game.

Why wouldn't my attitude be self serving? I'm speaking for my likes and desires, or should I just blindly praise like half of the people on this forum do?  Gotta love the Politically Correct generation where god forbid you criticise something, its the end of the world.  

No one is saying that you can't criticize the game.  I encourage such criticism since it provides me with some moderately intellectually stimulating debate.  

However,  with a statement like the one I have bolded and underlined for you, I don't think you can claim that David blew anything that out of proportion.  You explicitly stated a prediction that Bioware will be shut down by EA in a few years because of the changing game market.  David was in my opinion generous to continue his conversation with you after you proclaimed that his job and livelyhood will be destroyed because of his company's current direction. 

Before you go after me by saying that you didn't intend that statement like that, I'll say that I would believe you.  The intent of that statement was probably not meant as I and most others would initially interpret it, that you left out context that would make the statement seem less offensive.  I hope so, because such an accusation is extremely callous, especially in these bad economic times, and belittles your entire argument.

Moving on from that, I would like to address your actual argument.  While you may not realize it consciously, everything in you and others' arguments comes back to entitlement.   What is you justification for wanting Bioware to make more of a game you want to play?  It is that you are a loyal, longtime fan of their games.  However, this is basically entitlement, whether you realize it or not. 

To be honest? I wouldn't be surprised to see it happen. Wheres Origin these days? Or Westwood, or more recently and aquired at the same time as Bioware, Pandemic? Would I like to see that happen? No of course not. What worries me is with EA calling the shots and holding the purse strings, games will be rushed out, in an 18-24 month frame, features will be cut to be made into paid DLC, and the quality will in the long run tarnish Bioware. With EA you're only ever one game with lower than expected sales away from the axe.

So basically what you're saying is that everyone that has an arguement in not wanting a sort of Mass Effect 2 pew pew make over, is doing so out of entitlement. I'm sorry if I have a hard time following that line of logic. So because one likes that sort of traditional CRPG that most studios no longer make because titles like the Fallouts and Oblivions make more money and appeal to at some extent a difference audience, we're entitled in hoping that Bioware will still make that type of traditional RPG that made us all loyal fans in the first place? Yeah still not getting it.

[JrayM16]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

JrayM16 wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
And you wonder why I find most of your replies condescending. When EA shutters you guys in 5 years after the addh crowd gets bored of Bioware games and moves on to something else, maybe you'll care again about the old fans.

It has very little to do with entitlement, obviously you guys are going to, and should make the game you want to make, I would just hope you'd keep a few of the old timer's likes in mind. But apparently thats soooo much to ask, and makes one an elitist. Ok sure there Gaider whatever you say.

No, the part that makes you an elitist is the part where you assume that anyone who isn't an "old timer" (these people who you seem to speak for and who you threaten will abandon us if we don't give them what 'they' want) is an... what's one of the phrases you used? One of the "addh crowd"? So they're essentially action-addicted simpletons? Not as loyal as the old timers, not as smart or as worthwhile providing anything for?

That doesn't seem elitist to you?

I get that you want what you want. It's one thing to say, however, that we can and should make the game we want to make and quite another to actually give that concept more than lip service in the rest of your post. My calling you on your codescension towards people who don't like what you like is not condescending, despite your assertation. I don't think I'm better than you, nor do I think the "old timers" aren't worth providing content for (as I do, in fact, think there's plenty for them here to love). I do think, however, that your attitude is unfortunately self-serving.

Way to blow what I said out of proportion David. Its not the end of the world either way, I'll prolly still buy DA2 regardless, because I usually enjoy Bioware games. So no I wouldn't say this old fan is abandoning you. But if the game leaves me with a ME2 taste, well, I prolly won't enjoy it much personally. Which would be a shame since Origins is a great game.

Why wouldn't my attitude be self serving? I'm speaking for my likes and desires, or should I just blindly praise like half of the people on this forum do?  Gotta love the Politically Correct generation where god forbid you criticise something, its the end of the world.  

No one is saying that you can't criticize the game.  I encourage such criticism since it provides me with some moderately intellectually stimulating debate.  

However,  with a statement like the one I have bolded and underlined for you, I don't think you can claim that David blew anything that out of proportion.  You explicitly stated a prediction that Bioware will be shut down by EA in a few years because of the changing game market.  David was in my opinion generous to continue his conversation with you after you proclaimed that his job and livelyhood will be destroyed because of his company's current direction. 

Before you go after me by saying that you didn't intend that statement like that, I'll say that I would believe you.  The intent of that statement was probably not meant as I and most others would initially interpret it, that you left out context that would make the statement seem less offensive.  I hope so, because such an accusation is extremely callous, especially in these bad economic times, and belittles your entire argument.

Moving on from that, I would like to address your actual argument.  While you may not realize it consciously, everything in you and others' arguments comes back to entitlement.   What is you justification for wanting Bioware to make more of a game you want to play?  It is that you are a loyal, longtime fan of their games.  However, this is basically entitlement, whether you realize it or not. 

To be honest? I wouldn't be surprised to see it happen. Wheres Origin these days? Or Westwood, or more recently and aquired at the same time as Bioware, Pandemic? Would I like to see that happen? No of course not. What worries me is with EA calling the shots and holding the purse strings, games will be rushed out, in an 18-24 month frame, features will be cut to be made into paid DLC, and the quality will in the long run tarnish Bioware. With EA you're only ever one game with lower than expected sales away from the axe.

So basically what you're saying is that everyone that has an arguement in not wanting a sort of Mass Effect 2 pew pew make over, is doing so out of entitlement. I'm sorry if I have a hard time following that line of logic. So because one likes that sort of traditional CRPG that most studios no longer make because titles like the Fallouts and Oblivions make more money and appeal to at some extent a difference audience, we're entitled in hoping that Bioware will still make that type of traditional RPG that made us all loyal fans in the first place? Yeah still not getting it.

I never even said entitlement is bad in the first place, however there is no other word to actively describe your justifications.  Besides,  I perused some of your earlier psots ofn this thread which I missed and you get pretty needlessly aggressive towards the people who disagreed with you, who were(mostly) being quite reasonable. 

My real problem isn't that you're criticzing Bioware, or even that in my opinion you're doing so out of entitlement.  My real problem is that your manner of speaking to people about your ffeelings on the game is in such a callous and unfriendly manner that you are not only derailing all constructive and reasonable conversation on the thread(not to mention bringing it waaaaay off topic) you are also reinforcing any notions that other posters and Bioware may hold that people who hold your opinions are a bunch of spoiled brats, thus you are actively contributing towards exactly what you were arguing against in the first place.

To find an example of how someone who is in disagreement with something Bioware has done approaches the topic with any level of decency, check out the "Fight for the Love" thread on the Mass Effect General discussion forum.  While not all of the discussion is as nice and constructive as it should be, the OP lays out their complaints about Bioware's exclusion of gay relationships in ME2 in a totally non-combative manner, actually taking into account criticism of their ideas, and offering actual solutions to the problem presented, all while respectfully acknowledging the argument sof those against and coming up with suggestions on how to compromise on these points. 

So please, I 'm not asking you to stop expressing your views, I encourage it.  Please do so with respect to those whom you are talking to and with rational justification, and most of those whom you talk with will most likely acknowledge this and show you the respect you deserve in conversation.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Sure, I'll try and walk on eggshells and be politically correct from now on. :innocent:

[SirOccam]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

So basically what you're saying is that everyone that has an arguement in not wanting a sort of Mass Effect 2 pew pew make over, is doing so out of entitlement. I'm sorry if I have a hard time following that line of logic. So because one likes that sort of traditional CRPG that most studios no longer make because titles like the Fallouts and Oblivions make more money and appeal to at some extent a difference audience, we're entitled in hoping that Bioware will still make that type of traditional RPG that made us all loyal fans in the first place? Yeah still not getting it.

I don't think that's what he's saying at all. He (and Gaider) are saying that YOU are doing so out of a sense of entitlement.

Not everyone who dislikes what they've heard about the game is trying to use "being a loyal customer" as a reason for why the game should be made the way they want. Nor are they disparaging people who DO like the changes as having ADHD or otherwise being sort of beneath notice.

Anyway, on a side note: anyone else getting sick of the phrase "pew pew?"

[addiction21]

SirOccam wrote...


Anyway, on a side note: anyone else getting sick of the phrase "pew pew?"

Been sick of it for a while. Just as I am sick of the buzz words/phrases like "dubming down" or "consolazation"

[JrayM16]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Sure, I'll try and walk on eggshells and be politically correct from now on. :innocent:

There's a difference between being politically incorrect and rude.  Political incorrectness can often be more constructive because it takes into account truths that many aren't willing to bring up. 

I'm just trying to say that being more polite and constructive will make you sound more convincing and maintain a level of sanity on the boards.

Thank you.

[JrayM16]

addiction21 wrote...

SirOccam wrote...


Anyway, on a side note: anyone else getting sick of the phrase "pew pew?"

Been sick of it for a while. Just as I am sick of the buzz words/phrases like "dubming down" or "consolazation"

Yes, it's all just buzzwords to act as a substitution for a convincing argument.  Which is a shame, because many people actually have a point, but are drowned out by all the loud ones.  Just like politics.

[HTTP 404]

this is getting off topic and topic question has been answered with a resonding "none of your business"

LOCKDOWN!

oh wait I dont have that power.

[addiction21]

JrayM16 wrote...


Yes, it's all just buzzwords to act as a substitution for a convincing argument.  Which is a shame, because many people actually have a point, but are drowned out by all the loud ones.  Just like politics.

Pretty much and HTTP 404 I share the feelings.

[Maconbar]

HTTP 404 wrote...

this is getting off topic and topic question has been answered with a resonding "none of your business"

LOCKDOWN!

oh wait I dont have that power.

I wouldn't mind if this one was locked and I don't even have addh, or whatever it was refered to as, and didn't play ME2.

[hexaligned]

Short answer: Enough to feed a third world country for a year.



They have more than enough funding to make an enjoyable game. The real question is what percentage of that money peripheral (I consider them) things like VO got budgeted, over things like real content and QA.

[AlanC9]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...


I never said I spoke for every old fan, just myself and the few I've talked to who didn't much care for ME2. Sorry that you took it so personal.

Pew pew? Addh kids? I f you don't want to insult people, don't be insulting.

And yes, I'm sick of "pew pew" too.

[AlexXIV]

I don't blame Bioware for what they are doing and neither do I think they are making bad games either in future or past. I am just wondering why the only companies who dare to put more effort into RPG features are usually small, new companies who fail mostly because of bad execution imo. One of the best examples I know is Vampirse the Masquarade: Bloodlines. The game was a flop but not because of the concept but rather bad execution, as in bugs, unfinished stuff, etc.

The thing that made the game great for me though was that you had different options to finish quests. Aside from the general atmosphere. But it is rather easy in a vampire game since it is always night/dark and that's about as much scary feeling you need. So in this game you could finish a quest without killing anyone, or could finish it by slaughtering everyone. Some of them even gave more reward for not getting spotted at all. Another option would be to dress up in enemy uniform or whatever and talk your way to your objective.

I mean it is kind of sad if in an RPG the only option to solve quests is kill things. I know I repeat myself. There are action games for action people, but what about the roleplay crowd? I know in DA:O most combat was to me just some sort of nuisance to get on with the story. Maybe in DA2 the combat will be more fun for me, I liked it in ME2 too. But liking the game doesn't change my opinion about dumping RPG aspects of a game.

I feel like people always mix up compaints about RPG features and the question whether the game is going to be successful. I just find it kind of unfair that it seems that the general opinion is that RPGs don't sell if the only ones who tried and failed did so rather because of their budged and exexution than the actual concept.

And to AD&D or D&D based products I can only say, the ruleset was never properly or completely implemented in any of their computer game titles. They mostly only took the combat rules part. You can start with BG or even earlier, it doesn't matter. I don't think any of these titles really deserved to be called 'classical RPG'.

[DespiertaLosNinos]

AlanC9 wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...


I never said I spoke for every old fan, just myself and the few I've talked to who didn't much care for ME2. Sorry that you took it so personal.

Pew pew? Addh kids? I f you don't want to insult people, don't be insulting.

And yes, I'm sick of "pew pew" too.

Why would that be insulting? Clearly if your views on entertainment differ from CoS Sarah Jinstar's than you suffer from a mental disorder (see. ADHD) because no long term fan could have possible enjoyed Mass Effect 2 

Excellent use of egocentrism Jinstar, thumbs up