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#51
AlanSJF

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Yara Cousland wrote...

Thank you, Dahlia. I could not load the module...probably this a connected to the lvl files. I have just run the exterior1 cutscene...had the impression that I have heared sound. I have to run it again...would be the first time for me. (I use the same level with the same audio setting.)


exterior1 is the scene using the party camp, right? You should have sounds with that one.

I hope you and Dahlia can get the more recent cutscenes to run as well - with the ogre, genlocks, etc. If all 3 of us can run all the test scenes in-game with sound - as I can - then we'll all be at the same stage and we can figure out where to take things next.

#52
Yara C.

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[quote]AlanSJF wrote...

exterior1 is the scene using the party camp, right? You should have sounds with that one.
[/quote]
Regrettably not - only the ambient sound in the party camp.Posted Image

[quote]AlanSJF wrote...
I hope you and Dahlia can get the more recent cutscenes to run as well
[/quote]
No problem. And some animations of the Darkspwan are rather amusing Posted Image

I have just send you and Dahlia a pm, a more detailed test report.
In general - I was overwhelmed to hear so much sound associated to animations. Posted Image
Only in cutscene 3 and the exterior1 it did not play. Posted Image
[/quote]

Modifié par Yara Cousland, 12 novembre 2010 - 10:38 .


#53
AlanSJF

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I've now added a werewolf to the latest test cutscene, the one with 3 humanoid creatures all performing combat animations at the same time.



I'd used a number of werewolves in my 'Night Attack' cutscene, and none of their animations played with sound. I used 7 of the same animations in this latest test using the single werrewolf - and once again all the animations play with sound.



So far, then, all these test cutscenes have one thing in common: the base 32x32 level for the area where the scenes take place. The humans, ogres, nug, genlocks, hurlocks and now werewolf have all been given animations that have sound, and they are all animations I've used in my previous cutscenes, cutscenes that played with no or minimal sound in-game.



So is it a case that the more complex the cutscene - a detailed level/area, a large number of creatures, numerous animations linked with transitions and altered in one way or another (weight, start/end offset) the less likely it is that animation sounds will play? And there's also the fact that these are all exterior cutscenes, and the single - relatively complex - interior cutscene I've done did run in-game with all animation sounds audible.








#54
DahliaLynn

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I want to make note of something you mentioned. (I sent you both PMs too :)

You said you hear minimal sounds.

What do you mean by this? there is something called ducking, which is some sort of compressor I believe, which lowers sounds of certain things and allows for others to become more audible.



Regardless of this, the fact that you hear *something* says a lot. Can you tell me what circumstance you heard minimal sounds?


#55
Yara C.

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The findings seem to indicate this. But I doubt that 'complexity' is the only relevant factor. Not in my case. I have conducted enough tests with less complex areas (i.e dwynne´s house with 3 rooms), 1 human actor, few not manipulated animations...)
I am just switching the area of one my cutscenes to your area test_2.

Modifié par Yara Cousland, 12 novembre 2010 - 11:04 .


#56
AlanSJF

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DahliaLynn wrote...

I want to make note of something you mentioned. (I sent you both PMs too :)
You said you hear minimal sounds.
What do you mean by this? there is something called ducking, which is some sort of compressor I believe, which lowers sounds of certain things and allows for others to become more audible.

Regardless of this, the fact that you hear *something* says a lot. Can you tell me what circumstance you heard minimal sounds?


I'll have to go back and re-watch all my original cutscenes to give you a comprehensive list - I'll make that my last task before I call it a night - but in my second cutscene 'Into the Deep Woods' there's sound when the elf starts to walk at the start of the scene, then no sound at all until she touches one of the stones and get's knocked back (though I think that sound is associated with the vfx I used), and I think there's also a sword swish or two when she's fighting the skeletons, before the remainder of the scene plays out in silence. That's the kind of thing I'm refering to when I say 'minimal sounds'.

Modifié par AlanSJF, 12 novembre 2010 - 11:13 .


#57
DahliaLynn

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AlanSJF wrote...

DahliaLynn wrote...

I want to make note of something you mentioned. (I sent you both PMs too :)
You said you hear minimal sounds.
What do you mean by this? there is something called ducking, which is some sort of compressor I believe, which lowers sounds of certain things and allows for others to become more audible.

Regardless of this, the fact that you hear *something* says a lot. Can you tell me what circumstance you heard minimal sounds?


I'll have to go back and re-watch all my original cutscenes to give you a comprehensive list - I'll make that my last task before I call it a night - but in my second cutscene 'Into the Deep Woods' there's sound when the elf starts to walk at the start of the scene, then no sound at all until she touches one of the stones and get's knocked back (though I think that sound is associated with the vfx I used), and I think there's also a sword swish or two when she's fighting the skeletons, before the remainder of the scene plays out in silence. That's the kind of thing I'm refering to when I say 'minimal sounds'.


then this is good, since you might want to take notice of any changes/animations/settings you have in the cutscene editor throughout the audible/non-audible parts.if you check each change you may be getting closer. 

Also make sure you see if this sound on /off is consistent each time you play the cutscene.

Modifié par DahliaLynn, 12 novembre 2010 - 11:21 .


#58
AlanSJF

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And some animations of the Darkspwan are rather amusing Posted Image


Yes, they are. Not enough people exploit the inherent comedic value of genlocks. :)

#59
AlanSJF

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DahliaLynn wrote...

AlanSJF wrote...

DahliaLynn wrote...

I want to make note of something you mentioned. (I sent you both PMs too :)
You said you hear minimal sounds.
What do you mean by this? there is something called ducking, which is some sort of compressor I believe, which lowers sounds of certain things and allows for others to become more audible.

Regardless of this, the fact that you hear *something* says a lot. Can you tell me what circumstance you heard minimal sounds?


I'll have to go back and re-watch all my original cutscenes to give you a comprehensive list - I'll make that my last task before I call it a night - but in my second cutscene 'Into the Deep Woods' there's sound when the elf starts to walk at the start of the scene, then no sound at all until she touches one of the stones and get's knocked back (though I think that sound is associated with the vfx I used), and I think there's also a sword swish or two when she's fighting the skeletons, before the remainder of the scene plays out in silence. That's the kind of thing I'm refering to when I say 'minimal sounds'.


then this is good, since you might want to take notice of any changes/animations/settings you have in the cutscene editor throughout the audible/non-audible parts.if you check each change you may be getting closer. 

Also make sure you see if this sound on /off is consistent each time you play the cutscene.



Good thinking. Across 5 cutscenes, I'd like to think there'd be some overlap when it comes to if/when/how sounds play or don't play.

#60
Yara C.

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AlanSJF wrote...

Good thinking. Across 5 cutscenes, I'd like to think there'd be some overlap when it comes to if/when/how sounds play or don't play.


Overlap - that matches my impressions in another context. Sometimes placed sound is dimmed completely by vo, but not always.

BTW, activated my creatures in your 32x32 area, pasted their animation´s tracks - sound played.

#61
AlanSJF

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Yara Cousland wrote...

BTW, activated my creatures in your 32x32 area, pasted their animation´s tracks - sound played.


More success - good stuff!

Now, prompted by DahliaLynn's suggestion I've gone back to review my 4 exterior cutscenes, making a note of what sounds did play. I watched each cutscene 3 times in-game, and here are the results after comparing the cutscenes in the cutscene editor. BTW, you can find Youtube links to all 4 in the cutscene samples thread, though bear in mind the basic in-game versions are slightly different, as in some cases I added music later, etc.

1) 'The Rescue'

269.1 seconds
64x64 level/area
15 cameras (!)
20 characters/creatures

- Leliana's shuffle/look left animation had sound: no GAD but an Ease In transition from the previous animation (though there is a gap between them)
- Female warden's fold arms animation had sound: no GAD though Ease In transition from the preceding overlapped animation
- When Morrigan, Leliana, the warden & Alistair start to run forward just before the combat starts there are some dim sounds: no GAD or transitions used for their individual animations.
- This is an interesting one: when you cut from a side to a back view of them running you can see the ogre in the distance, performing the ogre warcry animation - which you can partially hear. No GAD or transitions used for that warcry animation, and it is occurring a good distance away from the active camera, yet some sound is audible.
- One of the female warden's deathblow attacks has sound: no GAD or transitions used for that animation
- Around half of the ogre animations have some dim/muffled sound - sidestepping, moving forward, running: no GAD or transitions used for the animations (ditto the ones that play with no sound)
- All 3 of the animations I used for the High Dragon at the end played with sound: no GAD for any of them, but there's one Ease In/Out transition between the 1st and 2nd

I could detect no differences at all when I watched the cutscene a second and third time in-game.

2) 'Into the Deep Woods'

220.3 seconds
64x96 level/area
5 cameras
8 creatures/characters

- The female Elf's initial walk/stop animation had sound: GAD & a Linear transition to the next animation
- The 'shockwave' VFX had sound (obviously, no GAD/transitions needed there)
- One of the skeleton 'draw weapon' animations had sound: no GAD but an Ease In transition from the preceding (overlapping) animation
- The 5th skeleton attack move had sound: no GAD, no transitions
- The 6th skeleton's attack move also had sound: no GAD but an Ease In transition from the previous animation and an Instant transition to the next animation (slight overlap)

This time there were some differences on the second and third viewings:

Second viewing:
- There was sound when the 3rd skeleton falls and dies: no GAD or transitions
- Also, several other combat sounds played, but very dim/muffled

Third viewing:
- virtually identical to the first viewing, apart from the 'draw weapon' animation having no sound.

3) 'Night Attack'

320 seconds
96x160 level/area
8 cameras
33 creatures/characters

*Note before viewing in-game, I removed all sound emitters from the area and the cutscene, so all I'd hear was any animation sounds; if you watch this one on Youtube much of what you hear is sound from those emitters.

- The boy clapping animation had sound: no GAD or transitions
- At the same time the Mabari playing/barking animation had sound (barking): it's a looped animation, with an Ease In transition to the following overlapped animation
- I used cs_fclan.fc_idle02 for the female rogue standing on the dock, and this animation had sound: I used GAD, but no transitions
- The male rogue turning/walking away animation had sound: I used GAD and there's an Ease In transition to the next animation
- Here's another interesting one. During the next sequence, I've given the Mabari a number of barking animations. Most of them play with sound, but in some cases the barking is louder when the active camera is focused elsewhere (eg, a different camera focused on the male and female rogue characters). When the active camera switches to the one focused on the Mabari, the barking is still audible, but at a decreased volume. There's no GAD or transitions employed for any of these animations.
- When the male dwarf walks to join the group around the Mabari, his animation has sound: there's GAD plus an Ease In/Out transitions to the subsequent overlapping animation
- When the group around the fire walk over to join the others, some animations play with sound (you cane hear armour clanking, for example): GAD was is use here, but no transitions
- Out of dozens, only a single werewolf attack animation had sound: it had GAD but no transitions
- One elf archer draw/fire bow animation had sound: no GAD, no transitions
- There are a number of dim/muffled animation sounds just about audible during the next combat sequence. There's a lot going on all at the same time, but I'm pretty sure the animations that had sound all used transitions and 2 used GAD
- When the dwarves hug near the end the male dwarf's animation had sound: GAD was used, but no transitions

There was no detectable difference on a second and third viewing.

4) 'The Bloodplague'

179.5 seconds
128x160 level/area
3 cameras
51 creatures/characters

-This one's easy to summarise: during the battle sequence a total of 5 animations played with some sound; some had transitions and used GAD, others didn't. The rest of the cutscene played in-game with no (audible) animation sounds. It was exactly the same on second and third viewing.

Modifié par AlanSJF, 13 novembre 2010 - 10:50 .


#62
DahliaLynn

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Good stuff! It seems you have a lot of info to work with here.
2 quick questions:

1. Are there any similarities between the animation *names* or naming categories for those that worked/didn't work?
2. In the scenes where you heard stuff muffled or low, have you been using the FOV parameter for example, setting FOV to 20 or less when showing a particular scenario?

Can you place a link here to the 2nd video so that we can know how you reference the "third skeleton" sound/no sound in second run issue (in fact you can link them all for reference in general :)

Modifié par DahliaLynn, 13 novembre 2010 - 01:46 .


#63
DahliaLynn

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Sharing some info:
This is where Audio is added to animations (Yara talked about going into this more) :)
Sharing the link for now :
http://social.biowar...end_tree_editor

Modifié par DahliaLynn, 13 novembre 2010 - 02:21 .


#64
AlanSJF

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DahliaLynn wrote...

Good stuff! It seems you have a lot of info to work with here.
2 quick questions:

1. Are there any similarities between the animation *names* or naming categories for those that worked/didn't work?
2. In the scenes where you heard stuff muffled or low, have you been using the FOV parameter for example, setting FOV to 20 or less when showing a particular scenario?

Can you place a link here to the 2nd video so that we can know how you reference the "third skeleton" sound/no sound in second run issue (in fact you can link them all for reference in general :)


And two quick answers:

1) I didn't make note of the names/naming categories, but should have, so let me get back to you on that one.

2) As to FOV, I'll go back and double check that too, though there were plenty of instances where only some animation sounds played during the same shot, and wouldn't you expect FOV to effect all the animations (and their sounds) in any given shot?

Anyway, here are the links (same order as above):

www.youtube.com/watch

www.youtube.com/watch

www.youtube.com/watch

www.youtube.com/watch

R.e. the Event Editor - I don't really understand it, truth be told, I mean exactly what it's for. I just use it as a reference source when I want to know if an animation has sound or not. :) 

Modifié par AlanSJF, 13 novembre 2010 - 05:39 .


#65
DahliaLynn

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I'm mentioning FOV because it has to do with the distance of the camera to the actual event. So if you have a camera placed far from an event but with a low FOV perhaps creatures farther away in the shot would be affected. (even though they seem closer since FOV is low)

#66
Sunjammer

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How are you calling the various cutscenes that have sound/no sound? By which I mean what combination of object and event: is it area + postloadexit, or trigger + enter, or plot + set flag?

#67
AlanSJF

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Sunjammer wrote...

How are you calling the various cutscenes that have sound/no sound? By which I mean what combination of object and event: is it area + postloadexit, or trigger + enter, or plot + set flag?


Er, here's my ignorance showing again - I don't know what you mean, Sunjammer. Could you break this down for me, please?

#68
Yara C.

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@Dahlia, to differ between the animation blend editor and the event editor (2nd part of the wiki page):
It is rather easy to add and manipulate sounds associated to animations with the event editor if they do not play automatically (and we think they should do). To search for a specific animation and post it to local seems to be still time-consuming.
(If someone knows how to select a whole branch or several animations at once and post them to local - your recommendation would be appreciated very much!)

What I hope to figure out exploring the mysterious animation blend tree editor is if it can provide us with some automatism. The animation blend tree editor could / should reduce or ease our work with the curve editor when ever we want to use the same combination of animations.
But I have no idea what the connection between the animation blend tree editor and the event editor could be. Provided that there is an integration of the latter I hope that it could be used to design sets of animation including the associated sounds.

To share some complimentary info: (where to find an adequate sound in the tree structure)
In this post I describe where to find an overview on the sound resources: http://social.biowar...5068992#5209617


@Alan, that is a good basis for a comparison to figure out what the similarities could be. Related to the muffled sound: I have observed this as well during my tests with your test cutscenes. I left this out in my test report. If you want this additional info I can send it. But I believe enough stuff to work with.


When the active camera switches to the one focused on the Mabari, the barking is still audible, but at a decreased volume.

Sounds strange. It would suppose that the distance between active camera and Mabari has decreased. What was distance to the active camera? Distance to the camera is a factor for the volume.

I would be very glad to get a clue why you can hear sound in the test_scene_exterior1 and I can not. I have compared every audio parameter and other parameters of your area with those I have set for the camp. It was identical beside the setting of the position of the reverb volume. It seems you have made a duplicate of the camp´s area from the single player module, right? I couldn´t do this (mismatching IDs of resources); I had to set the ambient sounds separetely.

Modifié par Yara Cousland, 13 novembre 2010 - 06:07 .


#69
Yara C.

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Always these delays between writing a post and reloading the page...

@Sunjammer, like Alan I do not understand all (can only imagine) to what you refer.
But different to Alan I do not use anymore a trigger. I load a cutscene with the -autologin -runscript script command.

Modifié par Yara Cousland, 13 novembre 2010 - 06:01 .


#70
DahliaLynn

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I've been wondering about scripts being the possible cause of the no sound issue.

What sunjammer is asking is if you load the cutscene by  "area + postloadexit", which is a script that tells the game that when you enter the area, the cutscene should fire,

"trigger + enter" would be setting a trigger in a particular zone in an area you physically walk into that triggers the cutscene.

"plot + set flag" is something I can only assume has to do with your advancement through the game (a conversation?) causing a particular plot to set a flag triggering the cutscene to fire, but I'm not sure of this one.

Edit: of course if I am inaccurate please correct me Sunjammer :whistle:

Modifié par DahliaLynn, 13 novembre 2010 - 07:01 .


#71
AlanSJF

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DahliaLynn wrote...

I'm mentioning FOV because it has to do with the distance of the camera to the actual event. So if you have a camera placed far from an event but with a low FOV perhaps creatures farther away in the shot would be affected. (even though they seem closer since FOV is low)



Okay, here's the info:

1) 'The Rescue':

The animations that played with sound - in some cases dim/muffled - were from various categories. mh.dg_, mh.po_, fh_m, mh_m, c_dsogre, mh_c, c.highdragon. In all cases FOV was 45.

2) 'Into the Deep Woods':

Again, different categories: mov., fxa_, m.ua_, mh_c. FOV was either 40 or 30.

3) 'Night Attack':

Various categories: mh.dg_, c_dog, cs_f, cs_crowd, c_shka, mh_c., mh.cu. FOV ranged from 30 to 55. During the Mabari barking sequence I mentioned, the barking was loudest when the active camera (not focused on the Mabari, in fact about a 3rd of the map's distance away from it) FOV was 45; when the active camera switched to the one actually focused on the Mabari FOV was 40, the camera was obviously much closer, yet the barking wasn't as loud.

4) 'The Bloodplague':

As I said before only a few combat sounds played, all from the mh_c group. A single camera was used for the battle sequence, and FOV switched between 35, 38 and 45.

So, when it comes to camera proximity/FOV, I'm not sure what to think. There's the instance of the ogre warcry being audible in 'The Rescue', when there was practically the entire length of the map between the ogre and the active camera; yet when the active camera was much closer filming the ogre, not all of the ogre animations had sound, and those that did were muffled.

Also, during the 'The Bloodplague' battle sequence or during the fight with the skeletons in 'Into the Deep Woods', the scenes where only some sounds played have me scratching my head. Why would you get some animations playing with sound and not others taking place in the same scene, or even at the same time? More so, why not when the animations are all from the same group (eg all mh_c combat animations)?

#72
AlanSJF

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DahliaLynn wrote...

I've been wondering about scripts being the possible cause of the no sound issue.

What sunjammer is asking is if you load the cutscene by  "area + postloadexit", which is a script that tells the game that when you enter the area, the cutscene should fire,

"trigger + enter" would be setting a trigger in a particular zone in an area you physically walk into that triggers the cutscene.

"plot + set flag" is something I can only assume has to do with your advancement through the game (a conversation?) causing a particular plot to set a flag triggering the cutscene to fire, but I'm not sure of this one.

Edit: of course if I am inaccurate please correct me Sunjammer :whistle:


Ah, okay. Well as I mentioned yesterday the trigger script I use is the first one on this page:

social.bioware.com/wiki/datoolset/index.php/Useful_Scripts

So that would be "trigger + enter", right?

Oh, and Yara, you mention above using the event editor to add sounds - how does that work, exactly? Do you have to link the sounds to the animations, or to the actors using them? Or if you post to local from the event editor does that mean sounds will play, or at least should?

Modifié par AlanSJF, 13 novembre 2010 - 07:19 .


#73
Yara C.

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Thx for your explanation, Dahlia. I have already created a small campaign to honor my brother´s GW who got lost in the fade between DAO and Awakening - and of course for learning purposes. So it is not completely strange to me.

"area + postloadexit" - that´s what is unknown to me.
I have tested with a trigger too: always with a negative result. Setting a flag should be superflous because there is no plot outside of the cutscene(s).

But you are right: I have already asked myself too if scripting/ script references/ module properties could be a relevant factor. Beside this, my language setting is German and I am not certain if this could have an impact as well.

Modifié par Yara Cousland, 13 novembre 2010 - 07:19 .


#74
AlanSJF

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Onwards with the testing ...

After pouring over my previous exterior cutscenes where animation sounds have failed to play with any consistency or regularity, and comparing them to the comparatively simple test scenes I've put together over the last couple of days, the question I've been asking myself is might the problem be with the amount of information the engine is having to cope with when it comes to playing the more detailed, complicated scenes in-game?

With that in mind I've created a new 32x32 level, this time making it more detailed than the previous test level. I deformed the terrain a bit, added some grass and a few trees, a few rocks, a camp fire. I also made changes in the Exportable Area Properties- all the atmospheric settings - before turning this new test level into a new test area.

To this new area I added my three test creatures, and then in the cutscene editor I activated them and made a start on a short cutscene. Continuing with the idea of adding detail and complexity, I've made the creatures perform some of their animations at the same time, changed the weight of some of these animations, used transitions, and moved the camera a few times.

So far so good; I exported the cutscene and all the animations that have sound played with sound in-game.

The idea now is to keep adding to the scene - one or two more creatures at a time, a broader range of animations and alterations to those animations, extending the cutscene by 20-30 seconds at each stage, to see if I reach a point where the animation sounds stop playing, or become muffled, or if any sounds associated with the new animations fail to play at all.

Modifié par AlanSJF, 14 novembre 2010 - 01:08 .


#75
Yara C.

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Wow, during the last hours I came to the insight what an ignorant idiot I was. Nearly 2 monthes ago that I have cared about scripts; it was too comfortable with the runscript command. I was aware of the apr_base.gda and did not think about the basic scripts I need to extend. Did not count 1 and 1 together. Unbelievable!  (Annotation: That is the worksheet where sound associated to animations is referenced)

AlanSJF wrote...
Oh, and Yara, you mention above using the event editor to add sounds - how does that work, exactly? Do you have to link the sounds to the animations, or to the actors using them?

The wiki provides the relevant informant although some more detailed information is missing. You have used it already as a reference source to see if an animation has sound or not. You have already added an event to the timeline and seen that the animation has audio? That is more than half the way.

 (- Right click on the timeline to play the sound.)
 - Select the event in the tree editor - choose Menu Tools- Export- Post to local.
You should now see the events in your_module - core - overide- toolsetexport folder. The sound should be available when you will load again your module.

-  If you want to see a preview of the animation in the viewport of the event editor: 
 Activate the objector inspector. There you can choose any creature or  a placeable.

- If you want to modify the sound:
Right click on a single audio element on the timeline  (or draw a rectangle to select several) to delete it
Left click on a single audio element and change the setting in the object inspector.
If you select a movement animation you can i.e change the movement scale for a footstep from small to medium.

I believe I have already associated sound to an animation where there was none before. But I have to refresh my memory...

Or if you post to local from the event editor does that mean sounds will play, or at least should?

Yes, it should. The experiences posted in this forum are rather similiar to mine:
Sound plays like desired - volume can be too low - (sound does not play)

Edit: Good approach, Alan!

Modifié par Yara Cousland, 14 novembre 2010 - 01:22 .