101 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanSJF]

Thanks for the info r.e. the events editor, Yara. I'll have to experiment with that at some point.



Right, stage 2 of the new test.



I've added the following to the new cutscene: headtracking, a second camera, a few animations to one of the test creatures, a new ash demon test creature - my own, placed into the area and activated in the cutscene editor - a vfx and animation for the ash demon.



Result of testing the extended scene in-game: all animation sounds play, original and new.



Next, that ash demon needs a whuppin'



More later ...

[Yara C.]

I am still in the process of reorganizing my stuff and getting rid of the mess I have created by working with duplicates and destroying references etc.
But the first breakthrough in my case: I have triggered  a cutscene and all sounds associated to animations played. Fully audible.
I have run the same cutscene by the -autologin -runscript command and could hear only the two sound events which I had already posted to local via the event editor. The sound was muffled.

So, there seems to be a significant difference how this is handled by the engine.

@Sunjammer,
for people whose focus is on Machinima and who would like to trigger different cutscenes in the same area - do you see any possibility to organize the trigger scripts more hierarchical? What I have in mind is: could it be possible to use base scripts for the trigger event where the rCutscene parameter could be assigned as a variable? (Sorry, I do not know how to express this clear enough in English.)
Alan has already asked something similiar. Actually we need to write several scripts for different cutscenes (and areas). I would be now more  willing to dive in scripting if there would be a chance to organize this more hierarchical.

Modifié par Yara Cousland, 14 novembre 2010 - 03:06 .

[Sunjammer]

Yes you could stack up an number of cutscene calls in the same script or you can have each cutscene set a plot flag when it finishes and have that plot flag start the next cutscene. Several ways to skin this cat.

[AlanSJF]

Yara Cousland wrote...
But the first breakthrough in my case: I have triggered  a cutscene and all sounds associated to animations played. Fully audible.
I have run the same cutscene by the -autologin -runscript command and could hear only the two sound events which I had already posted to local via the event editor. The sound was muffled.

So, there seems to be a significant difference how this is handled by the engine.

Good stuff, Yara.

You provided a few details in your PM, but can I ask about the level/area where the scene takes place? Also, you mentioned not moving the master object to the centre of the scene - do you usually do so - i.e., did you move it in previous attempts where animation sounds did not play?

[AlanSJF]

Some more results with the new test:

I've extened the new test scene by around 15 seconds, enough time for the 3 test creatures to react to the ash demon's appearance, draw weapons, and quickly deal with it. Then I exported to test in-game.

Result: all animation sounds played, however this time there are some points to note:

- One of the animations I've used is mq_p.pp_ste_en, an animation that has sound AND music associated with it. On first viewing the sound played, but not the music. So I ran the scene twice more, and on second and third viewing both the sound and music played.

- Also, the sound for the combat animation I gave the test creature fighing the ash demon played on all 3 viewings, but there were differences each time. They were subtle, a slight dip or rise in volume, but definitely there.

Interesting ...

Modifié par AlanSJF, 14 novembre 2010 - 06:29 .

[Yara C.]

@Sunjammer:  That is a good incentive. I hoped so, knowing a bit more about other scripting languages. And supposed  already that setting plot flags could be an approach. To stack up a number of cutscene calls in the same script sounds most appealing.
Could you give me a hint which would be the best method to progress in  understanding the Toolset scripting with this goal? Any interesting link available beside the scripting tutorial & overview and the event & cutscene functions I should know? 

@Alan, it is still to early too deduce something. That´s why I didn´t mention more in this thread.
I have just found out why one script did not fire and will continue to test and compare.

Right, I have forgotten to mention the level/area. It was the den312d level I have used for this cutscene.
6 rooms. The center of the scene is at the bar of the Pearl. The master object - not moved - is not in the center of the area, it is located in the neighbour room with the barrels. The quality of the volume did not change. It was always on the same level, for animations in the entrance hall or at the bar. And even for the nearest to the master object, an animation of a bouncer.
Edit: To be more precise: There was no muffled sound. The volume varied in relation to the camera´s distance. (only small variations)

Also, you mentioned not moving the master object to the centre of the scene - do you usually do so - i.e., did you move it in previous attempts where animation sounds did not play?

That is completely different. I will observe this during my tests. Yes, I have moved it in previous attempts where animation sound did not play. (It made no significant difference. But that´s irrelevant because it didn´t play because of the missing script / runscript method I have used.)

Modifié par Yara Cousland, 14 novembre 2010 - 07:23 .

[AlanSJF]

den312d - that's interesting Yara, because the only success I've had getting animation sounds to play as they should in my 'proper' cutscenes was the one time I also used interiors. The problem remains getting the same results with exteriors, custom or otherwise.

[Yara C.]

Yes, my findings are now converging to yours. Meanwhile have I tested 3 areas and 3 cutscenes:
2 area variations with the den312d level associated to 2 different cutscenes. And a duplicated area with the brc999d level which I have associated to a duplicate of my camp cutscene which you know. In the latter I have removed all sound resources I have set in the cutscene editor.

Result:
- When I used the runscript command the associated sound never played. (!)

- Triggered in-game I could hear associated sound in all 3 cutscenes. 
- The area music played dimmed - I have neither choosen a music preset for the areas nor set a music volume (How is it in your cutscenes? If this would not be controllable... )

- Interior scenes:
All sounds played. Good quality.

- Exterior scene:
I missed some sounds. Okay, footsteps on this ground will have an low-occlusion-factor of 40 or below. But armour clanking and vfx sound should be audible.
And - keyword Mabari:  I had forgotten that I had experimented with a 'howling sad' - animation and didn´t remove it. It did not play in my original cutscene because the distance to the camera was too high. (Mabari at the pond, active camera focused on Sten, FOV 45).
But now the volume was incredible high, dominating everything, even the voice-over. ??

At least, I have moved the master object of the exterior cutscene from the outer corner to the center of the scene to compare it: no difference. 

Modifié par Yara Cousland, 14 novembre 2010 - 08:48 .

[AlanSJF]

Yara Cousland wrote...

Yes, my findings are now converging to yours. Meanwhile have I tested 3 areas and 3 cutscenes:
2 area variations with the den312d level associated to 2 different cutscenes. And a duplicated area with the brc999d level which I have associated to a duplicate of my camp cutscene which you know. In the latter I have removed all sound resources I have set in the cutscene editor.

Result:
- When I used the runscript command the associated sound never played. (!)

- Triggered in-game I could hear associated sound in all 3 cutscenes. 
- The area music played dimmed - I have neither choosen a music preset for the areas nor set a music volume (How is it in your cutscenes? If this would not be controllable... )

- Interior scenes:
All sounds played. Good quality.

- Exterior scene:
I missed some sounds. Okay, footsteps on this ground will have an low-occlusion-factor of 40 or below. But armour clanking and vfx sound should be audible.
And - keyword Mabari:  I had forgotten that I had experimented with a 'howling sad' - animation and didn´t remove it. It did not play in my original cutscene because the distance to the camera was too high. (Mabari at the pond, active camera focused on Sten, FOV 45).
But now the volume was incredible high, dominating everything, even the voice-over. ??

At least, I have moved the master object of the exterior cutscene from the outer corner to the center of the scene to compare it: no difference. 

I have used music presets in some of my cutscenes, but I've been adding/removing/changing stuff so much recently I'll have to go back and see if I can dig up any notes I might have made for the original settings. That said, I'm pretty sure the music played as it should, and removing it hasn't had any noticable impact on the animation sounds in those scenes (playing or not playing).

The Mabari thing is weird - maybe something specific to that particular set of animations, as I also experienced odd volume responses with the Mabari barking animation I used.

Maybe too soon to say, but the fact we've both had some success using trigger scripts is pointing to scripting being the key to this after all - which is good and bad, as it means I should probably try getting to grips with that side of things. It'll be interesting to see what Sunjammer comes up with ...

And no real surprise r.e. the master object. I was just curious.

[Yara C.]

I hope you will figure something out following the 'complexity' approach. I can not really follow on this path. Made 2 last tests this evening. The findings match the earlier ones.
Interior area (castle): sound played; exterior area (lake): sound played (low complexity)

Okay, next step is to learn how to skin this...onion. We stayed tuned.

Modifié par Yara Cousland, 14 novembre 2010 - 11:17 .

[DahliaLynn]

My internet was dead. What I can say about the master object is that its effect is mainly regarding the LOD , and as far as cutscenes go, it is how your keys have a point of reference. They all are calculated relative to where you place your master object I believe. (as well as if you change it's location) I think, this gives your cutscene a point of reference for the areas to use when you key positions of your objects. (again I can't say for certain but it should make sense) Other than that, I don't see how it would affect sounds since LOD is graphics related when used.

Modifié par DahliaLynn, 15 novembre 2010 - 01:14 .

[AlanSJF]

DahliaLynn: Yeah, it's hard to see how the master object would have any impact on animation sounds (or audio in general) - like I said, I was only really curious about it.



As far as my latest test goes, I've one quick update. I've now thrown a Revenant into the mix, and testing the newly extened scene in-game all animation sounds continue to play. Though one again the sten animation 'intro' music failed to play on first viewing, but did when I watched the scene a second and third time.



Here's something else to consider, which of course may or may not have any relevance: aside from the size and amount of detail in the level/area I'm using, the only thing that differs in the approach I'm taking with these tests - I mean differs from my previous (exterior) cutscenes - is the fact I'm adding to the cutscene a little at a time, and exporting to test in-game at each stage. With those exterior cutscenes where animation sounds have been so problematic, I never did this; I worked on the scenes start to finish in the cutscene editor, and only then exported. In most cases I did go back, make changes and then export again, but the point is I was exporting the whole scene, never just the first 20, 40, 60 seconds, as I'm doing now.



So, could that make any difference, or do the words 'clutching' and 'straws' spring to mind?

[Yara C.]

@Alan, applying such an incremental method sounds rather rational to explore this further.
With regard to the percentage of associated sound which does not play it should be considered eventually how much time is worthwhile to find a causal connection (and solution)  for the exemptions or if it is better to spend the time on complimentary solutions to fill the remaining gap (means to use the event editor or place a sound object in the cutscene editor). Emphasis on eventually. I do not want to cushion your inquiring mind. (BTW - what is your estimation in regard to the percentage?)

I have had a look in the core audio script. It includes two warning functions related to one possible bug and a less severe error.May be a relict of the test phase? I have not seen a similiar warning in other core scripts I have peeked into. So we can not exclude that there are still remaining bugs or errors which are not trapped by the scripts.

To my opinion we have been successful until now. With regard to earlier posts in this forum which broached the issue of 'sound associated to animations' in cutscenes I started in the believe that the problem would be the rule. It is nice to know now that is more an exemption.

I am still on the track too but now related to scripts. I have a script scenario and some fragments how it could be done in mind but as a novice to the DAScript I will progress more slowly. Testing incrementally as well...

DahliaLynn wrote...

They all are calculated relative to where you place your master object I believe. (as well as if you change it's location) I think, this gives your cutscene a point of reference for the areas to use when you key positions of your objects. (again I can't say for certain but it should make sense)

I can confirm this. In case I haved moved the master object the purpose - beside a test - always was to get placeables in a better starting position for a 'link to actor' action.

Modifié par Yara Cousland, 15 novembre 2010 - 11:28 .

[AlanSJF]

Yara Cousland wrote...

@Alan, applying such an incremental method sounds rather rational to explore this further.
With regard to the percentage of associated sound which does not play it should be considered eventually how much time is worthwhile to find a causal connection (and solution)  for the exemptions or if it is better to spend the time on complimentary solutions to fill the remaining gap (means to use the event editor or place a sound object in the cutscene editor). Emphasis on eventually. I do not want to cushion your inquiring mind. (BTW - what is your estimation in regard to the percentage?)
 

As far as 'complimentary solutions' go, Yara, I agree the emphasis should absolutely be on 'eventually.' More work needs to be done on how the Events Editor plays into this, but I don't really see using placables - emitters - as a long-term solution. Taking my cutscene 'Night Attack' as an example, I placed over 30 emitters into that scene to try to plug some of the gaps where animation sounds should have played; I would have needed close to three times as many to fill all the gaps. Also, it's not always possible to replace a missing animation sound with an emitter, because there are none that match that sound.

The point is, the animation sounds should play, and likewise there should be an explanation for why they don't. For me getting sound to work is hugely important, primarily because, at this stage at least, I'm not using any dialogue or conversation in my cutscenes. Despite that I'm still trying to work with narratives, to create atmosphere, and what you can hear is as important as what you can see.

Okay, mini rant over ...

You asked about my estimation of the percentage - do you mean the percentage of animation sounds that play/don't play? If you do, with my four exterior cutscenes it varied, but the numbers are low. The best of the bunch was probably 'Night Attack', where around 20% of the animation sounds played; bottom of the pile would be 'The Bloodplague', where I'd say it was around 2, maybe 3% Not good.

Actually, I might go back and get some definitive numbers; how many animations I used in each cutscene, how many had associated audio, how many actually played with sound in-game.

Modifié par AlanSJF, 16 novembre 2010 - 12:02 .

[Yara C.]

You asked about my estimation of the percentage - do you mean the percentage of animation sounds that play/don't play? If you do, with my four exterior cutscenes it varied, but the numbers are low. The best of the bunch was probably 'Night Attack', where around 20% of the animation sounds played; bottom of the pile would be 'The Bloodplague', where I'd say it was around 2, maybe 3% Not good.

Strange we had no exchange before about the percentage. I did not expect that it would be so low for your scenes: between 2 and 20%?! That is really bitter.
When I referred to a remaiming gap I thought of 80-90% of the animation sound playing. In my case the percentage bounced up from 0 to 90%. The 'complexity' factor seems to have a high impact. I know the factor is high in your cutscenes (areas build from scratch, many creatures).
To cover a remaining gap of 10-20% - where animation sound does not play- by other means seems then to be more acceptable. Placing sound objects was only an example. The use of the event editor would be more economical (one 'post to local', sound available every time you use the same animation) if the quality of the volume would be more constant. And I assume the experts would consider a script solution too if an important sound should play.
At least, I have already seen the "Shut up, Mabari" command  

If you want I could take a second look at your test scenarios of this week-end during the next days. (Actually, I miss a bit the work on cutscenes ...I need a break)

Modifié par Yara Cousland, 16 novembre 2010 - 10:31 .

[John Epler]

Hey folks, still waiting on a response from the people involved - unfortunately it's that time of the project where five minutes is a valuable and precious commodity!



I'm wracking my brain to try and figure this one out - the only possibility I've come up with is that it might be a memory issue, but even then I'd imagine there'd be more consistency in when the sounds do/don't play.



I'll keep you posted if I hear anything!

[AlanSJF]

^^ Appreciate the update. Good to know there's another brain doin' some wracking over this.



That said, I'm tried up with non-toolset stuff atm, and likely will be for the rest of the week, but I'll resume testing asap ...

[Yara C.]

Thank you very much, John!

A memory issue - that could match our findings. The higher the complexity level, the lower the chance that animation sound plays.

[John Epler]

Yara Cousland wrote...

Thank you very much, John!
A memory issue - that could match our findings. The higher the complexity level, the lower the chance that animation sound plays.

I think the way it works -might- be similar to a priority list. Depending how much memory is available, the engine will cut out certain audio events to preserve memory (possibly by kicking them out of the preload queue). I think maybe animation sounds are close to the 'bottom' of that list? As in, the first to go. However, I'm not a tech guy, but when I get a definitive answer I'll let you know.

[AlanSJF]

JohnEpler wrote...

Yara Cousland wrote...

Thank you very much, John!
A memory issue - that could match our findings. The higher the complexity level, the lower the chance that animation sound plays.

I think the way it works -might- be similar to a priority list. Depending how much memory is available, the engine will cut out certain audio events to preserve memory (possibly by kicking them out of the preload queue). I think maybe animation sounds are close to the 'bottom' of that list? As in, the first to go. However, I'm not a tech guy, but when I get a definitive answer I'll let you know.

In which case, one very quick question: in your experience do exterior cutscenes generally use more memory than interior cutscenes, or is it the overall' complexity' (size of the level/area, number of characters, duration, etc.) of the cutscene that's important? 

I ask because the one interior-based cutscene I've done had no animation sound issues, wheras all the exterior ones did.

[John Epler]

AlanSJF wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...

Yara Cousland wrote...

Thank you very much, John!
A memory issue - that could match our findings. The higher the complexity level, the lower the chance that animation sound plays.

I think the way it works -might- be similar to a priority list. Depending how much memory is available, the engine will cut out certain audio events to preserve memory (possibly by kicking them out of the preload queue). I think maybe animation sounds are close to the 'bottom' of that list? As in, the first to go. However, I'm not a tech guy, but when I get a definitive answer I'll let you know.

In which case, one very quick question: in your experience do exterior cutscenes generally use more memory than interior cutscenes, or is it the overall' complexity' (size of the level/area, number of characters, duration, etc.) of the cutscene that's important? 

I ask because the one interior-based cutscene I've done had no animation sound issues, wheras all the exterior ones did.

I'm tempted to say 'yes', but I'm honestly not sure. As I said, our audio work is mostly done by the audio team - we don't really delve too deeply into it. Though it's possible that it might also be materials based - footsteps sound different on brick than metal, for example, and that might be baked into the animation?

Wish I could be more helpful 

[DahliaLynn]

I suppose one thing I can ask you John, is if there are any do's or don'ts they tell you when setting up a scene. For example: Never use *x* animation with "y" creature, or only use the activated creatures placed in the area, (don't insert new ones in the editor itself). I'm just trying to see if there are any rules they impose on you when you make a cutscene to be used in the game itself (not a bik for example)

Are there? or are you free to insert what you want and use any animations you feel appropriate?

These things may seem second nature to you, but we aren't exposed to any rules they may have told you about. If there is anything you can share based on your own experience it would be appreciated

[AlanSJF]

JohnEpler wrote...

AlanSJF wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...

Yara Cousland wrote...

Thank you very much, John!
A memory issue - that could match our findings. The higher the complexity level, the lower the chance that animation sound plays.

I think the way it works -might- be similar to a priority list. Depending how much memory is available, the engine will cut out certain audio events to preserve memory (possibly by kicking them out of the preload queue). I think maybe animation sounds are close to the 'bottom' of that list? As in, the first to go. However, I'm not a tech guy, but when I get a definitive answer I'll let you know.

In which case, one very quick question: in your experience do exterior cutscenes generally use more memory than interior cutscenes, or is it the overall' complexity' (size of the level/area, number of characters, duration, etc.) of the cutscene that's important? 

I ask because the one interior-based cutscene I've done had no animation sound issues, wheras all the exterior ones did.

I'm tempted to say 'yes', but I'm honestly not sure. As I said, our audio work is mostly done by the audio team - we don't really delve too deeply into it. Though it's possible that it might also be materials based - footsteps sound different on brick than metal, for example, and that might be baked into the animation?

Wish I could be more helpful 

No worries, John.

I'll second DahliaLynn's request, above; if there are any more general cutscene rules or guidlines you could share, that'd be appreciated.

[Yara C.]

@ Alan, I have just tested once more one of the problematic test scenarios, changed something (GAD-related) and got a positive result: all sounds beside one played. I will send you a more detailed pm. Perhaps you can countercheck it and see if it will improve your percentage of animation sounds playing.

Modifié par Yara Cousland, 18 novembre 2010 - 09:08 .

[Yara C.]

It seems it will take much more time before a new insight will be contributed here.

Therefore I would like to summarize essential aspects on this topic we know so far to give a quick overview for everyone who finds this thread by a search in the forum. (Because...yes, it is a rather long thread)

It could be a used as basic information for beginners and as a check list as well if the sound does not play. Therefore I will include steps which have been mentioned repetitively before in the forum.

Topic: Sound associated to animations in cutscenes

1. Cutscene property
"Play Sound Event " must be set to true.

2. Creatures
Creatures have to be placed in the area and should be activated then in the cutscene editor.
Right click on the creature -> Activate area objects
(For creatures only placed in the cutscene editor sound associated to animation will not  play.)

3. Run cutscene by -autologin -runcutscene vs. Run a cutscene from a trigger
The engine handles this differently. Sound associated to animations will not play if the -autologin -runcutscene command is used.

4. Animations
- without associated sound
There are some animations without associated sounds. This can be checked with the Event Editor .
If no sound is associated to a specific animation sound can be added by two complimentary methods:

a) Event Editor:
'Add event' (Right click in the time line) -> select the event -> set properties for the event in the object inspector - finally Post to Local

Cutscene editor:
Just place a sound resource in the viewport. To find an adequate sound resource: worksheets in the local folder your_DAO_installation_ path - tools - source - 2DA will provide on overview.

- GAD animations
We know: "It's important to set at least one set of keys for an object using GAD." Otherwise "unexpected and unpredictable errors could occur later".
It has an impact on sound associated to animations too. Without the setting of a key frame or incorrect setting for the GAD animation (i.e GAD = true for Non-GAD animations) sound associated to animations will more probable not play.

5. Volume
The volume of a sound associated to an animation is dependent on:

- the distance to the active camera
- the item material or the ground of an exterior area
(low occlusion factor in worksheet sound_material_types in the local folder your_DAO_installation_ path - tools - source )

Assumptions
There are some findings which indicate further aspects which could have an impact on sound associated to animations. But nothing finally proven. The assumptions are related to the complexity of a cutscene (i.e. size of level/area, number of creatures) and the memory usage.

If I should have forgotten something unintentionally, feel free to add.

Modifié par Yara Cousland, 26 novembre 2010 - 07:29 .