293 réponses à ce sujet

[Nightwriter]

I'd say this is them chickening out of explaining why Liara loves Shepard because that would require canonizing something about Shepard or inventing several different lists of reasons that apply to all versions of playable Shepards.

It's not unexpected that they didn't do this. I don't think they'd be able to devote that level of time and attention to it.

[smudboy]

Nightwriter wrote...

I'd say this is them chickening out of explaining why Liara loves Shepard because that would require canonizing something about Shepard or inventing several different lists of reasons that apply to all versions of playable Shepards.

It's not unexpected that they didn't do this. I don't think they'd be able to devote that level of time and attention to it.

I hardly believe adding a single sentence of dialog is a great endeavour.  Or an email.

[Killjoy Cutter]

smudboy wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Smud, why won't you except that "Because I couldn't let you go" means "I love you even if you don't love me, and I didn't want you out of my life, even as a friend"? It doesn't sound that complex to not understand.

I think I know what she's trying to say.  I have a few good ideas, but she's not telling or showing me.

Maybe next time Bioware will spoon feed everything to make you happy, then.  Heck, they already have characters repeating themselves half the time.

I don't read mystery novels, maybe that's how they're written.  But really, I don't care, either.

[smudboy]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Maybe next time Bioware will spoon feed everything to make you happy, then.  Heck, they already have characters repeating themselves half the time.

I don't read mystery novels, maybe that's how they're written.  But really, I don't care, either.

If it's so clear to you, by all means, show and tell.

Liara isn't scoring any points for a great portrayal of a tragic heroine a la Medea.  We know she's out for revenge, but we don't understand how and why, and it seems the comic book didn't illuminate anything about her character either.  What follows is a contrived enactment of killing someone but not out of revenge, but out of freeing a friend she thought long dead, who was instead imprisoned and tortured.  This should have driven home the concept of vengeance and retribution, but I found the commentary toward the third squadmate and Liara's deduction of what species the SB was to be more memorable and poignant.  Aside from her cathartic moment, to change her from...something...it's really two years of "GRR SHADOWBROKER" which accumulates to not much.

[theelementslayer]

Smuddy, if you would use a bit of extrapolation of her words and the actions maybe you would be able to piece it together.
1) She is a lonely palentologist whos very young, and very, well emotionals not the right word but very impulsive Ill say.
2) She has no friends besides Shepard.
3) She has strong feelings for Shepard-very quickly too. And even if you dont return them maybe, just maybe, she still has those feelings. Ever liked a girl who didnt like you back? I know I have. And even if they say no, feelings dont change.

Fast forward ME1, Shepard just saved mankind. Pretty big heroic thing, and really, she saved Liaras life way more then once. So Liara feels indebted. And horrible after shepard dies. So shes seen her friend die, found out that she is alive, saved shepard, and then out of all of that is foiled by the Shadow broker. After almost saving shepard she is forced to hand her over to cerberus to save sheps life. In the meantime another person, Feron, steps in to save her life again. And gets caught in the process. She feels indebted.

I dont see why Liara wouldnt want revenge, and I dont see how " because I couldnt let you go" plus all those actions of hers cannot really convey the reason of why she a) wants to kill the shadow broker and save feron.

I dont want to be spoonfed, and I hope BioWare doesnt do it, but its just a personal opinion, as is yours.

[smudboy]

theelementslayer wrote...

Smuddy, if you would use a bit of extrapolation of her words and the actions maybe you would be able to piece it together.
1) She is a lonely palentologist whos very young, and very, well emotionals not the right word but very impulsive Ill say.

That's what I thought she was.  Now she's a 2 year long vengeance seeking Benezia.

2) She has no friends besides Shepard.

I fail to see where you get this or what you mean.

3) She has strong feelings for Shepard-very quickly too. And even if you dont return them maybe, just maybe, she still has those feelings. Ever liked a girl who didnt like you back? I know I have. And even if they say no, feelings dont change.

I'm sure she does, but which?  The only ones I can think of are admiration and hero worship, because you have to factor in not talking to anyone in ME1.

Fast forward ME1, Shepard just saved mankind. Pretty big heroic thing, and really, she saved Liaras life way more then once. So Liara feels indebted. And horrible after shepard dies.

The heck does fast forward to ME1 mean?  How does her feeling horrible correlate to her going on a "fetch the body" quest for Cerberus in hopes of resurrecting him work?  Look, I'm not saying these instances aren't relevant or can't be figured out, but there's no evidence of it.  She could've been feeling awesome and it would've made no difference.  She still fights the SB, and is still revengeful toward him: and that's what she holds onto for 2 years, perhaps that's all she holds onto, because that's all we see, some pissed off person who doesn't really care much for anything else.

So shes seen her friend die, found out that she is alive, saved shepard, and then out of all of that is foiled by the  Shadow broker.

Feron's a she?  Who's she, Shepard?  What?

After almost saving shepard she is forced to hand her over to cerberus to save sheps life. In the meantime another person, Feron, steps in to save her life again. And gets caught in the process. She feels indebted.

When was she forced into doing anything?  Feron saved her life again?  If she was forced I clearly don't recall hearing about that.

I dont see why Liara wouldnt want revenge, and I dont see how " because I couldnt let you go" plus all those actions of hers cannot really convey the reason of why she a) wants to kill the shadow broker and save feron.

I'm not arguing the revenge isn't real; in fact it's all I'm hanging on to here.  It's inception certainly asks a few questions, because we don't know what happened aside from Feron saving her life in some way, and that's fine.  How she expresses herself (and lack thereof) towards her motives about Shepard, and what that means, is questionable, especially since she's one of the few people who not only know of the Reapers, she's seen the visions, and she's intricately involved in bringing Shepard back.  But "I couldn't let you go" is not a clear motive.  I'm not even sure what that totally means, or what specific memory she's holding on to.  It's the equivalent of answering "I climbed the mountain, because."  You do not give the audience a vague motive and expect us to know what you're going on about, especially when it became the basis of an entirely different personality and plot we never get to experience.  Liara is not one to do something just because.  I think it's because she loves Shepard, sees them as a hero, and a few other things, but the character in front of me right now is not the Liara I remember, nor is she alluding to anything when "I'm doing this for you."  Something's changed.  Something about revenge.  If Shepard's death drove her to such extremes, there is no mention of that development and progression: Liara is a stranger and we don't know what happened to her.

I dont want to be spoonfed, and I hope BioWare doesnt do it, but its just a personal opinion, as is yours.

The hell is wrong with you people and the term "spoonfed?"  I can guarantee you: every story you've ever read, can be made better, through clarity.  Simplicity.  That's not to say having a character come up to the protagonist and going "I'm Person X and this is my motive!"  Not very creative, but I'd argue you'd at least understand what was going on and not spending time trying to interpret the plot.  The most obvious is a way of putting a character through conflict or series of, and giving them a choice to act in a certain way.  But we can't do that since the change in Liara already happened, so one of the few things the narrative can do is tell us a story or flashback.  I do not know the circumstances of Liara's background or development, aside from her telling me she's seeking revenge.  We do not know what she really went through, what conflicts she transgressed, and what choices she's made to be this revenge-only seeking character.  I would've imagined they structured it so that the comic book or whatever alternate material fleshed that out.  The revenge angle was Liara's new character, and I don't have a problem with the revenge, because that's all she is, which seems to stem from Feron.  But that gets chucked out the door as soon as we find out Feron's still alive, instead of multiplying the rage or vengeance she's feeling.  Whose effects -- the death of the SB -- end up happening anyway.

So why even go through this massive revenge persona, when it was really all about Liara finding her friend?  It still doesn't explain why she wouldn't join up with Shepard in some capacity, though, as her retcon didn't involve her removing her memory of the threat of the Reapers, or intelligence, as to understand they're more important than some double crossing rogue who happened to save her life.

[Lady1Aph]

smudboy ur video is pretty good and u have some valid points that i can agree with.
But am i the only one who wondred why u cant use the dossier (how ever its spelled) when talking to squad or npc´s cause some of the things in them are pretty valid to the game, like for example that the Illusive Man who seems to be no fan of aliens yet he has alot of alien erm dancers at his bidding. Hell i would have loved if u could have used that against him at some point.

it would probaly be something like this

Shepard: the human race or just Cerberus

the Illusive Man: Cerberus is the human race.

Shepard: Say the man that hires asari dancers.

Modifié par Lady1Aph, 28 septembre 2010 - 01:07 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

smudboy wrote...
I can guarantee you: every story you've ever read, can be made better, through clarity.  Simplicity. 

(Emphasis added.)

Well, at least now we know where you're coming from on this.

[smudboy]

Lady1Aph wrote...

smudboy ur video is pretty good and u have some valid points that i can agree with.
But am i the only one who wondred why u cant use the dossier (how ever its spelled) when talking to squad or npc´s cause some of the things in them are pretty valid to the game, like for example that the Illusive Man who seems to be no fan of aliens yet he has alot of alien erm dancers at his bidding. Hell i would have loved if u could have used that against him at some point.

it would probaly be something like this

Shepard: the human race or just Cerberus

the Illusive Man: Cerberus is the human race.

Shepard: Say the man that hires asari dancers.

The Suicide Mission is multi-species, so I don't see the argument.  To hire that many voice actors for
a DLC probably wouldn't be cost effective.  Although I agree there should be arguments with the fellow, not just head nodding whenever he opens his mouth.

[smudboy]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

smudboy wrote...
I can guarantee you: every story you've ever read, can be made better, through clarity.  Simplicity. 

(Emphasis added.)

Well, at least now we know where you're coming from on this.

I hold very true to that statement.

My favorite movie, The Princess Bride, gets this perfect, although I'm sure other people enjoy it for it's obvious high adventure motif.

[Lady1Aph]

The Suicide Mission is multi-species, so I don't see the argument.  To hire that many voice actors for
a DLC probably wouldn't be cost effective.  Although I agree there should be arguments with the fellow, not just head nodding whenever he opens his mouth.

I think what i was trying to say is that why are those dossier there when u cant use them for anything execpt from just reading them, it kinda seems pointless to have them and not be abel to use them for anything, like the videos u can watch in the base, what are they for when u cant use them.

also another thing i i found wierd is that when u have had Liara up for drinks, and she tells u about the squard mates she met, wouldent it be logical that when u talk to them next, that they would comment on meeting her or something in those lines. its kinda wierd that she talks about them but they act like they never met her, u would kinda expect that someone like Kasumi would comment on that since she comments pretty much everything u do. lol

i know i know its a DLC

Modifié par Lady1Aph, 28 septembre 2010 - 02:54 .

[smudboy]

Lady1Aph wrote...

The Suicide Mission is multi-species, so I don't see the argument.  To hire that many voice actors for
a DLC probably wouldn't be cost effective.  Although I agree there should be arguments with the fellow, not just head nodding whenever he opens his mouth.

I think what i was trying to say is that why are those dossier there when u cant use them for anything execpt from just reading them, it kinda seems pointless to have them and not be abel to use them for anything, like the videos u can watch in the base, what are they for when u cant use them.

also another thing i i found wierd is that when u have had Liara up for drinks, and she tells u about the squard mates she met, wouldent it be logical that when u talk to them next, that they would comment on meeting her or something in those lines. its kinda wierd that she talks about them but they act like they never met her, u would kinda expect that someone like Kasumi would comment on that since she comments pretty much everything u do. lol

i know i know its a DLC

I know what you mean.  After playing Alpha Protocol, the power of the dossier, or information, can turn a conversation in a completely different way.  The Collector threat could've been a mysterious, intriguing journey the player embarked on, with varying information brokers buying, selling and trading on intel of various sources, giving us several leads to follow: some are false, some are good, some are traps, and some are complete surprises (new tech, a destroyed colony, a mysterious geth base, etc.)  Reminscent of how side-quests in AP worked: they were all related to the main quest.  ME2 could've been a big question on who to trust, why, and which direction to go -- which I thought it would've been -- considering there were so many factions and this looming threat of the Collectors is always happening in the background.   Roleplaying involves which relationships or groups to sign up with, what categories one places the character into.  Trust did not end up being a theme, which doesn't make sense, since we have to earn peoples "loyalty", which was a compelte cop out, in favor of some other stories that have nothing to do with anything.  Also there's still that previous tie in with ME1's Shadow Broker agent who "will remember" when Shepard needed intel in the future, considering they based the entire plot of ME2 around a secret organization: why didn't they go all the way and make it a theme?  That would've fleshed out the ME universe much more than the Cerberbus.

It's something I'm assuming the ship now knows: Liara's the Shadow Broker, and the people from ME3 on the down-low will acknolwedge that.

[Lady1Aph]

yea ive played Alpha Protocol aswell and i must admit i liked the power dossier has. Even in a game like ME they could prove both usefull and powerfull tools for Shepard, cause if u look at it in a logic way, then who would in their right mind have someone on their team without checking up on them first, hence the importance of dossier´s. I for one think they should have been introduced into the game much soner. also that SB agent from ME1 should have had some kind of role in ME2 since he did mention to Shepard that he/she would probaly need help in the future.

[TMA LIVE]

AwesomeEffect2 wrote...


And seriously, why did Vasir kill all those people at the Azure hotel? I can understand why she lied to Shepard, manipulated him, tried to kill him, betrayed the Council, took a hostage and threatened to kill her, killed the Shadow Broker agent, blew up a building full of innocent civilians, etc. I can see some excuses on why she did these things but I seriously can’t see any when it comes to what she did in the hotel. So unless I’m wrong, this completely kills off her “don’t you dare judge me” line.

Each dead body had a gun next to them, which makes then security.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 29 septembre 2010 - 07:07 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

TMA LIVE wrote...

AwesomeEffect2 wrote...


And seriously, why did Vasir kill all those people at the Azure hotel? I can understand why she lied to Shepard, manipulated him, tried to kill him, betrayed the Council, took a hostage and threatened to kill her, killed the Shadow Broker agent, blew up a building full of innocent civilians, etc. I can see some excuses on why she did these things but I seriously can’t see any when it comes to what she did in the hotel. So unless I’m wrong, this completely kills off her “don’t you dare judge me” line.

Each dead bodiy had a gun next to them, which makes then security.

Being such a badass biotic, she didn't really need to kill them to get away, did she?

[Verit]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
Being such a badass biotic, she didn't really need to kill them to get away, did she?

Well, she was a Renegade after all...

smudboy wrote...
So why even go through this massive revenge persona, when it was really all about Liara finding her friend?

Was it about Liara finding a friend or was it simply all about turning Liara into the new SB, while using the revenge persona to make it more believable that she would accept that role? I was somewhat surprised to see the happy ending to the DLC (in other words rescuing Feron). Bioware could easily have killed Feron and continue with the revenge plot. Of course, a Paragon player probably wouldn't want to go through with such a mission and would expect an option to convince Liara to forget about the SB, so turning it into a rescue mission avoids that problem.

smudboy wrote...
It still doesn't explain why she wouldn't join up with Shepard in some capacity, though, as her retcon didn't involve her removing her memory of the threat of the Reapers, or intelligence, as to understand they're more important than
some double crossing rogue who happened to save her life.

In bringing back Shepard she already did a lot to counter the Reaper threat. The remaining ME1 party members pretty much forgot about the Reapers altogether. It's a good question though, but I think her reduced role may have had to do with limited resources on Bioware's part. Parts of the SB DLC were already in the main game, so I wouldn't be surprised if Liara was at some point supposed to be a party member with a loyalty mission (meaning she would in fact join your team, but you'd have to help her save Ferron to gain her loyalty).

Modifié par -Draikin-, 28 septembre 2010 - 11:57 .

[Yojimbo_Ltd]

The second that I saw the part that mentions how the shadow broker sends probes through the relay, I nearly DIED laughing.



I remember that being one of your strongest points in the plot analysis. Oh, the irony...

[glacier1701]

Been doing a little research on one particular area of the vid that I agreed with Smud on but now find that perhaps its not as bad as it first seemed. Smud comments on the kitchen and the appliances etc found in that area. I admit that my first thought when entering this area for the first time was oh come on surely things will have changed especially since its an alien culture. However I would say that it is not entirely unplausable at it would seem.

In terms of cutlery it would seem that the knife, fork, spoon and chopsticks are pretty much it in terms of the forms we have on Earth. While exact specifications have changed and the odd hybrid those have been with us pretty much since people thought about eating with something other than the fingers. Since the Asari have the same finger and mouth structure as we do its not impossible that they came up with the same solutions. As for glasses, plates etc what we have are the most logical forms and do the job. Its only when we move onto appliances that perhaps we find things less believable.

When cooking basically there are 3 main ways of transferring 'heat' to the the object being cooked - conduction, convection or radiation. As technology advanced all that really occured was a refinement of the way this was applied to the process of preparing food for consumption. New 'energy' forms would be more convenient but would not necessarily change the look of a major appliance that much. So seeing an electricf stove much like we have on Earth is not unbelievable for Illium. Its the smaller applainces that might be different. So in essence then what we saw is not totally out of whack with the Asari physiology as we have seen it since it seems so much like ours. So a bit of thought and research suggests that that area is not as bad as it would seem at first.

[Killjoy Cutter]

glacier1701 wrote...

Been doing a little research on one particular area of the vid that I agreed with Smud on but now find that perhaps its not as bad as it first seemed. Smud comments on the kitchen and the appliances etc found in that area. I admit that my first thought when entering this area for the first time was oh come on surely things will have changed especially since its an alien culture. However I would say that it is not entirely unplausable at it would seem.

In terms of cutlery it would seem that the knife, fork, spoon and chopsticks are pretty much it in terms of the forms we have on Earth. While exact specifications have changed and the odd hybrid those have been with us pretty much since people thought about eating with something other than the fingers. Since the Asari have the same finger and mouth structure as we do its not impossible that they came up with the same solutions. As for glasses, plates etc what we have are the most logical forms and do the job. Its only when we move onto appliances that perhaps we find things less believable.

When cooking basically there are 3 main ways of transferring 'heat' to the the object being cooked - conduction, convection or radiation. As technology advanced all that really occured was a refinement of the way this was applied to the process of preparing food for consumption. New 'energy' forms would be more convenient but would not necessarily change the look of a major appliance that much. So seeing an electricf stove much like we have on Earth is not unbelievable for Illium. Its the smaller applainces that might be different. So in essence then what we saw is not totally out of whack with the Asari physiology as we have seen it since it seems so much like ours. So a bit of thought and research suggests that that area is not as bad as it would seem at first.

Agreed.

If form follows function, then there are only so many ways to hold liquids, transfer heat, move food from dish to mouth, etc.  The Asari body layout and the Human body layout are very similar, the basic mechanics of holding utensils, eating the food, and so on are therefore going to be very similar. 

180 years ago, people were facing the same issues as we are and using what were for all intents pots, pans, skillets, stoves, ovens, knives, forks, spoons, and so on.  Some of the rich had iceboxes even then.

Coming up with radically different solutions for 180 years in the future is just tossing random design at something for the sake of superficially appearing "all futurey".

[TMA LIVE]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

AwesomeEffect2 wrote...


And seriously, why did Vasir kill all those people at the Azure hotel? I can understand why she lied to Shepard, manipulated him, tried to kill him, betrayed the Council, took a hostage and threatened to kill her, killed the Shadow Broker agent, blew up a building full of innocent civilians, etc. I can see some excuses on why she did these things but I seriously can’t see any when it comes to what she did in the hotel. So unless I’m wrong, this completely kills off her “don’t you dare judge me” line.

Each dead bodiy had a gun next to them, which makes then security.

Being such a badass biotic, she didn't really need to kill them to get away, did she?

Well, she just got out of a car crash.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 29 septembre 2010 - 07:17 .

[TMA LIVE]

About the ship bit, just because the loading screen shows a 3d version of the ship, doesn't mean they had a scan of the ship that showed them where to land in order to get to a door faster. After all, all they had was the location of the base, and it's designed to be undetectable. It's also possible that because of the ship's location or devices on the ship, they can't get a scan.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 29 septembre 2010 - 09:40 .

[smudboy]

TMA LIVE wrote...

About the ship bit, just because the loading screen shows a 3d version of the ship, doesn't mean they had a scan of the ship that showed them where to land in order to get to a door faster. After all, all they had was the location of the base, and it's designed to be undetectable. It's also possible that because of the ship's location or devices on the ship, they can't get a scan.

Then how could Liara determine there was a cargo bay, and that it had doors, and that its doors were locked?

[December Man]

I agree with most of what Smudboy said in all of his videos. Well done.

[TMA LIVE]

You mean the shuttle bay right? Hmm, well they probably were able to get visual or a weak exterior scan and determine that, because Liara says, "The shuttle bay is locked down. We need to land the ship and hunt for a hatch." So they're able to tell the main door is locked, but don't know where the nearest hack is.

EDIT:

Also, Liara says it's hard to pinpoint because of the lightning, but is picking up a signal near the back after landing.

Why they don't call the shuttle back, and ride it to the back after finding this out? I'm guessing because of the lightning might hit the shuttle or them, but really, *shrugs* it's gameplay.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 30 septembre 2010 - 11:51 .

[smudboy]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
Agreed.

If form follows function, then there are only so many ways to hold liquids, transfer heat, move food from dish to mouth, etc.  The Asari body layout and the Human body layout are very similar, the basic mechanics of holding utensils, eating the food, and so on are therefore going to be very similar. 

180 years ago, people were facing the same issues as we are and using what were for all intents pots, pans, skillets, stoves, ovens, knives, forks, spoons, and so on.  Some of the rich had iceboxes even then.

Coming up with radically different solutions for 180 years in the future is just tossing random design at something for the sake of superficially appearing "all futurey".

This is a really, really minor issue, and a glib comment by me at an almost non-descript location of the apartment.  It's more or less the idea of a design for a modern kitchen, set in the ME universe, but resembles something from an IKEA showroom.  Hell if I know, it might even be.  We have the Normandy's kitchen as a set example to compare.  Whereas I'm not concerned with utensils and other such artefacts, if we have a universe where everything is controlled by ME fields, I'd imagine a few breakthroughs in the design, layout and function of such a thing.  Food storage, preparation, presentation, disposal, a talking kitchen, etc.  Something to give it that "oh yeah, this is where Liara eats, and you're in the future, on an alien planet" deal.  The fact we have a person, Gardner, we can point and talk to, and we're on a special human covert-ship on a specific mission to facilitate that is content enough.  The minimalism design motif is a common theme in sci-fi, so I'm not really in any great argument on my side.

The other issue is also minor, but much more positive, which is the human personalization of such a space, and thus the lack thereof.  Which is exactly as I'd have thought, as we are in the (minimalist design) future, and we can guess not much happens in this kitchen, a la SHADOW BROKER hunter.