293 réponses à ce sujet

[YourFunnyUncle]

Shandepared wrote...

Only to simple minded people who nobody should care about offending.

I just don't see why you need to use playground-level abuse in an otherwise intelligent setting. I'm not even saying that he shouldn't have the right to, just that it lowers the tone of his arguments for no good reason. Sorry if you can't see the logic in that.  Can we get back to discussing the OP's video, now?

Modifié par YourFunnyUncle, 23 septembre 2010 - 10:03 .

[arcuido27]

Was missing some comment about the Dossiers and the Investment Opportunities at the Shadow Broker Base and how your Character cant talk about it with his Squadmates and Liara.

But the Videos were entertaining, for me, thank you.

Modifié par arcuido27, 23 septembre 2010 - 10:21 .

[TMA LIVE]

AwesomeEffect2 wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

I'm still questioning why Vasir didn't destroy the Shadow Broker data, so Shepard would stop chasing her, and the Shadow Broker remains hidden.

Because the SB ordered her to retrieve the data.

Ok, well besides learning who leak what about what, why retrieve the data instead of destroying it if forced to choose? Because I think at the end of the day, the Shadow Broker would really rather that data get destroyed.

[YourFunnyUncle]

  Also, your idea of Liara replacing the role of TIM at the beginning of ME2 is an interesting idea. I wonder how different the game could have been if this were the case.

It is an interesting idea, but it seems that they're setting up Liara for that very role in ME3, so we may well get to see how that plays out. Personally, despite the rather clunky and implausible  "bringing Shep back from the dead" scenario. I liked the idea that you had to accept TIM's help to track down the collectors, as he's the only person who believes that they are a threat and has the resources to back you.

I think that the tension created by that scenario, and the fact that you could consinstently make choices which weren't in TIM's best interests made the game interesting. It made for a nice "dark second act" to the trilogy. I like the fact that the two games have a different feel; in the first you are strugging against bureaucrats who won't see the truth, and in the second your backer supports you but you don't trust his motives. It seems that in the third you will have the backing of a trusted ally to face the full force of the reapers, giving the game a different feel again. I think that this variation of scenario is what Bioware were setting out to acheive and I'm pleased that they chose that path.

Modifié par YourFunnyUncle, 23 septembre 2010 - 12:36 .

[smudboy]

YourFunnyUncle wrote...

An interesting analysis. For a DLC you claim to have enjoyed, it seems that you focused a little too much on the negative, but your style is up to you. I have to say though, just so that you realise that it's not just those that dismiss you out of hand who think this, that using "gay" as a synonym for bad really lowers the tone of the whole video. It truly does you no favours.

I loves loaded words.  Your interpretation unfortunately chose but one meaning.  Monkey + anything gay (like Shakespeare) = awesome.

Also, I had a "good", "bad", and "ugly" section.  The "ugly" was actually "destructively good", but Clint Eastwood soundtrack and titles are more compelling than Photoshop font.

I'm unsure as to why you have a problem with the ambiguity of Liara's motivations. It seems to me that the very nature of the story (that you may or may not have romanced her) makes it clear why they did this. The very fact that you can think of your own reasons that she would feel this way demonstrates that the story is strong enough to back up different interpretations, and as this is a role playing game where the player is able to follow the same basic story with very different moral outlooks, the ability to interpret as you see fit would seem to me to be a strength.

How is that clear?  If they require supplemental material to tell her story, and that supplemental material is a goddamned comic book, then there is a huge disconnect by how they attempted that explanation.

This isn't an issue of me inducing her motives, like Jenny from Forest Gump, who was a complex character.  This is literally Liara telling us "I cannot let you go."  And I'm like "ok, why is that?"  Again, if it's profound, show us that idea, or mental state, in a body language, or some other way, without words.  All we get is an awkward kiss or hug, and that sentence.  We NEED to know how Liara changed over these 2 years, drove her into revenge, and became Benezia 2.0.  Contrast Liara's infobroker revenge lifestyle, with Canderous as the new Mandalore: we aren't guessing why or how he became as such, nor does his new mantle cause a drastic change in personality.

Many of your more “nit-picky” points such as the decor in Liara’s flat did occur to me too but I find that this holds true for much of sci-fi, which is always bogged down to an extent in the technology of its day. Also the floating car chase was a massive sci-fi cliché but it was one I enjoyed immensely. Actually I find that a big part of the fun of watching/reading/playing any sci-fi or fantasy story is to pick holes in it. It doesn’t mean that I’m not enjoying the experience.

I don't recall ever not liking a scene, aside from the long ship hull romp.

I also agree that you could easily have landed nearer the entrance in the Shadow Broker’s ship, but I’m willing to forgive them this as it gave them the chance to showcase the “storm riding” technology which I found to be one of the most original concepts that they’ve come up with in the whole Mass Effect universe.

Edit: fixed formatting weirdness.

I can't, because they didn't provide any reason or excuse not to.  So what if the level was interesting?  Content is supposed to be interesting.  The existence of the scene still has to be explained when you are in space, flying around on a shuttle that can go anywhere.

[smudboy]

Midnight_Thirty wrote...

oh, and Shepard is a "shallow" character because you allow him to be. Shepard is about player choice, what you do to define him, you define him as nothing but the illustrations and therefore he is such. Just an illustration in your mind, nothing deeper. In my mind he is a reflection of me, and that is what a good RPG can portray.......yourself

Unfortunately, you're wrong.  If Shepard is a shallow character, and I make them out to be like that, that means the game can make them out to be non-shallow, and I choose to make them not.  The fact is, there are no scenes of character growth, and at best you can get Shepard to express an emotion here or there.  Emotions, unless they are deeply seated in ideology or some driving force pushing the character along, are not depth.

It's not my job to illustrate Shepard; it's the story's.  Choosing to buy a ship model, choosing P/R, choosing who to romance: these are not examples of character growth.

Now if your imagination works your way, then that's your opinion, and more power to you, but that's now how the game, or storytelling, works.

[smudboy]

PurePareidolia wrote...

It was an enjoyable analysis to listen to, and I agree on a lot of points.
I had a very different reaction to Vasir's comments about our Cerberus alliegence - frantically searching for the dialogue option that let me go "I know, right?" and dosing her with enough medi-gel to stabilize her (not enough to follow - don't want to be attacked again) and going in "peace" because she was absolutely one of the best characters I'd seen. Then, when Liara takes over, we now have a Spectre ally who can continue to serve as a great foil to Shepard.

Which raises the question - When we were gathering the galaxy's best and brightest, why did we never try to get any Spectres? Wouldn't working with a Spectre still on the council's payroll help communicate both our lack of ill will that working with Cerberus would imply, and the validity of our points, as we're clearly convincing one of their best operatives? Also Spectres are almost by definition the most badass warriors in the universe, as are Asari Commandos, which we didn't get either, unless you count Samara which I don't. I know I'm going off on a tangent here, but hey, the central theme of this DLC is lampshading things.

I was just glad LOTSB had a Spectre.  It was a shame that they killed her off becaue she wanted to kill Liara.  And yes, we needed that magical omni-tool medigel scene with her.  Just imagine if we kept her alive, and then Liara became the SB?  Boom, instant Spectre squadmate.

The problem with the choices in ME are the lack of, well, choice.  It's either positive, negative, or P/R.  There needs to be at least 4: positive, negative, neutral, and neither (something else), as well as the P/R system.  This makes things inherently complex, but that's how situations are dealt with.  This is why Tali's trial has one of the best choices in the game (there are 5, with 7 different reactions.)

It seems the DLC was almost all about lampshading, kind of like an apology, which ME2 desperately needed.  While I do wish we had a Spectre on board, and I'm sure Shepard would be able to garner one, TIM wouldn't allow a Council agent on a Cerberus mission.  Although this would be some rather compelling co-op modes if ME3 does go that path (highly unlikely.)

[Anacronian Stryx]

We don't get character building moments anymore..that's archaic - no no we get a shiny Paragon/Renegade meter so you can see what your character "is" on a scale, that's far more efficient anyway.



There is no need to build character - you chose from the beginning what you want to be and then you just better continue down that path or else you won't be able to see all the game have to offer.



Character building ..pffft all it would ever do is getting in the way of blowing things up anyway..

[smudboy]

arcuido27 wrote...

Was missing some comment about the Dossiers and the Investment Opportunities at the Shadow Broker Base and how your Character cant talk about it with his Squadmates and Liara.

But the Videos were entertaining, for me, thank you.

Well that's a massive effort on behalf of the developers, and would open up so many cans of worms.  I thought the point of using text was a simple way of providing exposition, without having to talk to everyone about such things.

Although now that I think about it, a very cool private email correspondence with everyone would've been quite interesting.

[AntiChri5]

You really couldnt find where the enemies were coming from at the last "roof" part?

[YourFunnyUncle]

smudboy wrote...
I loves loaded words.  Your interpretation unfortunately chose but one meaning.  Monkey + anything gay (like Shakespeare) = awesome.

If you were truly using the word in the sense it is meant in "gay Paris" then fair enough. It didn't come across that way to me, especially when you juxtaposed it with the word "awesome" used in its modern context.

How is that clear?  If they require supplemental material to tell her story, and that supplemental material is a goddamned comic book, then there is a huge disconnect by how they attempted that explanation.

This isn't an issue of me inducing her motives, like Jenny from Forest Gump, who was a complex character.  This is literally Liara telling us "I cannot let you go."  And I'm like "ok, why is that?"  Again, if it's profound, show us that idea, or mental state, in a body language, or some other way, without words.  All we get is an awkward kiss or hug, and that sentence.  We NEED to know how Liara changed over these 2 years, drove her into revenge, and became Benezia 2.0.  Contrast Liara's infobroker revenge lifestyle, with Canderous as the new Mandalore: we aren't guessing why or how he became as such, nor does his new mantle cause a drastic change in personality.

So what you're saying is that they should've provided a bit more of a resumé of the events in the comics? I can go with that, although I think there's enough to go on in the events of ME1. You saved her life, introduced her to a new and exciting existence outside of the realms of academia, and freed her from the shadow of her mother. She helped you to save the galaxy, and was part of a battle in which many lost their lives. Meeting Shepard completely changed her life. You couldn't say this to the same degree for any of the ME1 companions, with the possible exception of Tali. Tali however had the migrant fleet to return to.

I can't, because they didn't provide any reason or excuse not to.  So what if the level was interesting?  Content is supposed to be interesting.  The existence of the scene still has to be explained when you are in space, flying around on a shuttle that can go anywhere.

Fair enough. It just shows that we have a different level of tolerence for these things.

Modifié par YourFunnyUncle, 23 septembre 2010 - 01:52 .

[smudboy]

Flies_by_Handles wrote...

  I found the videos entertaining. What I would like to see from you Smudboy is a little more emphasis on what you liked about this DLC, which is something that you obviously enjoyed playing based on what comments you made so far. When you focus so much on the negative, you end up alienating some viewers who may otherwise have agreed with some of your points.

  Your criticism of the ship landing is nitpicky. I appreciated that segment for what it was: a unique level design that was a nice change up from the usual interior settings. I would have been less impressed with the Shadow Broker ship had we all been dropped inside immediately. A game is a game and while I prefer it have a great story, I also accept that there may be some suspension of disbelief to benefit actual gameplay.

  Also, your idea of Liara replacing the role of TIM at the beginning of ME2 is an interesting idea. I wonder how different the game could have been if this were the case.

The main reason I did this analysis is I loved LOTSB, more than the actual game.  It's like this was a massive after thought that could've been the foundation of ME2.  Instead, we get a comic book.  I thought Liara having and carrying the dogtags with her whenever she's out of her office was very telling of her character, almost as if the idea of Shepard is what's pushing her along, not the actual realization of Shepard in front of her.  (But if that was the case, it needed to be shown how such a transformation from hero-worship-symbolism, to Cyber Jesus in the flesh impacts and changes her.)

Luckily, all of my gripes don't take much away from the experience (aside from the lack of proper Liara and Shepard exposition, of which there is some already.)

[glacier1701]

I see I've missed a lot by playing Civ V last couple of days. Nice video and hit the complaints, the very few I did have about LotSB,  pretty accurately. The devs still seem attached to the rule of cool rather than logic which is why we got to fight on the outside of the ship. Would have been more logical to have had the door hack scene at the start and a long involved firefight through the interior still hitting the engine area and scenic views through windows as we did  so. It really is a pity that this kind of thought was allowed to be thrown out for ME2 during the 'No RPG' period they had.

[smudboy]

Flies_by_Handles wrote...
 

Smudboy wrote.....

  The main reason I did this analysis is I loved LOTSB, more than the actual game.  It's like this was a massive after thought that could've been the foundation of ME2. 
.........
   Luckily, all of my gripes don't take much away from the experience (aside from the lack of proper Liara and Shepard exposition, of which there is some already.)

  I understand that but only from reading your posts on these forums and not from your video. This is just my opinion, and I'm obviously not the one making these videos, but you may benefit from making it clear that you liked the content at the beginning of your analysis.

I start it off with a family-gathering analogy, whereupon LOTSB = the hot librarian, being better than the family gathering.
"For the most part, it's good."
"This one's (DLC) got action, romance, gags, bunch of random dead guys, music that came out of MGS, and yes a plot."

I don't know how much more clear you want me to be.  Oh wait.
*plays Handel's Messiah*

I then downplay the plot (because there's not much to it, but that's fine), mention it's a bridge, then give the idea that it's more damning than good, because it's better than the game it's coming from.

I reinforce this idea in the conclusion.

[AlexMBrennan]

I think that you are a bit fast to assume the less reasonable reasons for the characters' actions - e.g. the regarding the Shadow Broker:

Shepard just killed one of his more capable agents and dozens of mooks. Presumably, his HQ was his best defended ship/outpost/whatever, so fighting Shepard may have been the most sensible option (other than blowing the ship up with Shepard on board).

Besides, he's nearly invincible thanks to his shield, so fighting Shepard one-on-one is probably more likely to work than trying to dodge the Normandy's guns in a shuttle or escape pod.

[Xeranx]

I liked the analysis as usual.  I do wish they would stop killing off people that could be potential allies later.  

Modifié par Xeranx, 23 septembre 2010 - 07:04 .

[phatpat63]

smudboy is my new hero.

[Whereto]

I would like to see what your idea of a good plot is. People can comment on it but its hard to write a good book let alone a game with many outcomes and options, also combine that with the fact there is a development cost and time frame thus alot of stuff could of been better. Not saying mass effect 2 was a good story but it was better than a lot others though you make it sound horrible. But all in all you are correct about this dlc

Modifié par Whereto, 24 septembre 2010 - 01:19 .

[glacier1701]

Whereto wrote...

I would like to see what your idea of a good plot is. People can comment on it but its hard to write a good book let alone a game with many outcomes and options, also combine that with the fact there is a development cost and time frame thus alot of stuff could of been better. Not saying mass effect 2 was a good story but it was better than a lot others though you make it sound horrible. But all in all you are correct about this dlc

Amongst the comments made in the review there is some info on elements that Smud says would have made it a more interesting story/plot. It does get a bit lost among all the other things said but it is there. Boiled down though some more exposition by Liara on why she has been so focused on revenge and the change when it becomes clear that the driving force behind her for 2 years is suddenly gone. Vasir being used more (perhaps even survives) rather than as a throwaway superboss. And perhaps a bit more detective work. That at least would have given the DLC a higher rating than what it already gets. Oh and as always some more 'conversation' from Shepard showing how they are changing/growing due to the events going on.

[smudboy]

Whereto wrote...

I would like to see what your idea of a good plot is. People can comment on it but its hard to write a good book let alone a game with many outcomes and options, also combine that with the fact there is a development cost and time frame thus alot of stuff could of been better. Not saying mass effect 2 was a good story but it was better than a lot others though you make it sound horrible. But all in all you are correct about this dlc

I use the classic example from Forster.

Liara wants to save Feron from the SB out of gratefulness.  That is the plot, but I thought it was going to be "Liara wants to kill the Shadow Broker out of revenge and save Feron if they're alive."  And that's what it magically becomes.  That data on Feron being alive was a maybe (and that's just a bloody picture of the dude with the Hagalaz background.)

A good or bad book is really up to the reader.  A well put together book (and thus a necessary good book) is one whose grammar, writing and exposition are clear for us to interpret.  If things are just happening, and happen to coincide with what's desired  (Liara originally wanting to kill the Shadow Broker, changes her tune, then ends up doing it anyway with Shepard (sans 3rd squadmate)), then it feels contrived; there was nothing stopping Liara from expressing her feelings about stopping the Shadow Broker and trying to rescue Feron in the first place.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Lizardviking wrote...

Not nearly as good as your character and plot videos. But still okay.

Also i'm suprised you didn't bring up the fact that Shepard never questions Tela Vasir's presence in the first place (which was the only "problem" I had with the story of the DLC).

Shephard immediately trusting Vasir was a big speedbump for me as well, and the one thing that kept LotSB from being a 10 really.  (Other than the majority of the Dossiers and "spycam videos", which at this point I'm just ignoring as one of the interns at Bioware having an idiot lulz moment.)


But in general, I've learned to tune out Smudboy's hipper-than-thou, smarter-than-thou, ivory-tower-academia lit-crit rantings, and his gratuitous belittlement, insults, and condescension.

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 24 septembre 2010 - 04:58 .