293 réponses à ce sujet

[Fraevar]

Thank you for that video, smudboy. Was great fun to watch and I agree with your assessment that it is great to finally see some semblance of a working plot in the ME2 universe. And loved the Transformers closer ;-)

[smudboy]

Pacifien wrote...

Well, unlike the others, Liara did meld with Shepard regardless of romantic encounters and witness the same prothean vision because of it. That probably gives her a different perspective on matters.

True.  She's like the non-protagonist Whistle Blower who's aware of the impending doom of the universe.

But how does that coincide with "I couldn't let you go"?  If she said "I couldn't let you go, because I know we need you to survive."  Then that would definitely make sense as to her motives: she's on a mission to save the galaxy.

However, if that's also the case, she would join up with Shepard as soon as they entered her office, and wouldn't care about petty revenge.  She'd be on a mission to help stop the Reapers.  Regardless, the narrative did not tell us this, so non-ME1 players are still meeting a stranger for the first time.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Smud, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the "Because I couldn't let you go..." bit said if and only if Liara is your love interest from ME1?

[Giggles_Manically]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

Smud, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the "Because I couldn't let you go..." bit said if and only if Liara is your love interest from ME1?

She says that to a non-romanced shep as well.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

Smud, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the "Because I couldn't let you go..." bit said if and only if Liara is your love interest from ME1?

She says that to a non-romanced shep as well.

I never got the line (5 playthrough's!).

Is it dependent on the selected dialog options by any chance?

Modifié par FieryPhoenix7, 26 septembre 2010 - 03:49 .

[smudboy]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

Smud, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the "Because I couldn't let you go..." bit said if and only if Liara is your love interest from ME1?

She says that to a non-romanced shep as well.

I never got the line (5 playthrough's!).

Is it dependent on the selected dialog options by any chance?

When you finish her quest with the 5 Observers, and you choose the left dialog option and then the top left most one, you lose the option of selecting the bottom left option (check the youtube video here) where she tells you.  However, I noticed LOTSB overwrites this part of the main game, so I'm not sure if it's possible to play through...(which means Nyxeris still lives.)

[Fiery Phoenix]

smudboy wrote...

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

Smud, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the "Because I couldn't let you go..." bit said if and only if Liara is your love interest from ME1?

She says that to a non-romanced shep as well.

I never got the line (5 playthrough's!).

Is it dependent on the selected dialog options by any chance?

When you finish her quest with the 5 Observers, and you choose the left dialog option and then the top left most one, you lose the option of selecting the bottom left option (check the youtube video here) where she tells you.  However, I noticed LOTSB overwrites this part of the main game, so I'm not sure if it's possible to play through...(which means Nyxeris still lives.)

Ah, I see what I did then. Thanks for the explanation, Smud.

[FlyinElk212]

smudboy wrote...
Think about this:
Would you prefer:
"I couldn't let you go, because I love you.  But more than that: you're the most important person in the galaxy.  If we don't have you, I feel none of us are going to survive the Reapers.  You're special.  I can't quite...you are..." Liara turns around, being too emotional to continue.

Or

"I couldn't let you go?"

If you're happy with the second?  Good.  For.  You.  We're done.

To start, I agree on most of your points when it comes to anything storywise with Mass Effect 2, but in this particular instance I disagree.

As a writer, you have to give your audience some credit: writing everything out and hitting your audience over the head with information can really ruin story immersion. Instead, you have your character make inferences, and through their body language and carefully constructed sentences, you make believable reactions to certain situations.

If Liara went with your option one, heck, if the Bioware writers structured ALL of their writing like that, it'd make the characters seem less believable. People don't walk around stating, "I did _________ because of _____________", or "I feel ______________ because of ______________" all the time. In Liara's instance, perhaps she didn't want to divulge too much. Maybe she didn't WANT Shepard to know that her reasoning for bringing Shepard back was more personal/emotional and less about saving the galaxy. It's a believable reaction, and more importantly, is a much more clever way to reveal that tidbit of info without hitting us over the head with it.

That's my intepretation of the situation, anyway: the writers have PURPOSELY made Liara say option 2, while inferring option 1. I know you're a guy who likes details, and would probably still prefer option 1, but doing so means the character's believability, dialogue, and overall storytelling all takes hits.

Modifié par FlyinElk212, 26 septembre 2010 - 04:43 .

[Iakus]

smudboy wrote...


When you finish her quest with the 5 Observers, and you choose the left dialog option and then the top left most one, you lose the option of selecting the bottom left option (check the youtube video here) where she tells you.  However, I noticed LOTSB overwrites this part of the main game, so I'm not sure if it's possible to play through...(which means Nyxeris still lives.)

I also noticed you only got one chance to see this bit of dialog.  If you don't take that path, it's permanently locked out, and you never get that little bit of dialog.  I found that to be....not good....as it was the only time before LOTSB where you got any kind of explanation (even an inadequate one) for her behavior.

[Fiery Phoenix]

iakus wrote...

smudboy wrote...


When you finish her quest with the 5 Observers, and you choose the left dialog option and then the top left most one, you lose the option of selecting the bottom left option (check the youtube video here) where she tells you.  However, I noticed LOTSB overwrites this part of the main game, so I'm not sure if it's possible to play through...(which means Nyxeris still lives.)

I also noticed you only got one chance to see this bit of dialog.  If you don't take that path, it's permanently locked out, and you never get that little bit of dialog.  I found that to be....not good....as it was the only time before LOTSB where you got any kind of explanation (even an inadequate one) for her behavior.

Indeed. I always chose the boring upper left option on my previous playthroughs, but that's out of habit, since I start from the upper left when I investigate.

[smudboy]

FlyinElk212 wrote...

smudboy wrote...
Think about this:
Would you prefer:
"I couldn't let you go, because I love you.  But more than that: you're the most important person in the galaxy.  If we don't have you, I feel none of us are going to survive the Reapers.  You're special.  I can't quite...you are..." Liara turns around, being too emotional to continue.

Or

"I couldn't let you go?"

If you're happy with the second?  Good.  For.  You.  We're done.

To start, I agree on most of your points when it comes to anything storywise with Mass Effect 2, but in this particular instance I disagree.

As a writer, you have to give your audience some credit: writing everything out and hitting your audience over the head with information can really ruin story immersion. Instead, you have your character make inferences, and through their body language and carefully constructed sentences, you make believable reactions to certain situations.

If Liara went with your option one, heck, if the Bioware writers structured ALL of their writing like that, it'd make the characters seem less believable. People don't walk around stating, "I did _________ because of _____________", or "I feel ______________ because of ______________" all the time. In Liara's instance, perhaps she didn't want to divulge too much. Maybe she didn't WANT Shepard to know that her reasoning for bringing Shepard back was more personal/emotional and less about saving the galaxy. It's a believable reaction, and more importantly, is a much more clever way to reveal that tidbit of info without hitting us over the head with it.

That's my intepretation of the situation, anyway: the writers have PURPOSELY made Liara say option 2, while inferring option 1. I know you're a guy who likes details, and would probably still prefer option 1, but doing so means the character's believability, dialogue, and overall storytelling all takes hits.

Allowing the audience to use inferences, or allusions to, or implications, is all well and good.  The question is: what exactly is Liara alluding to?

I also do not need to be hit over the head with a simple answer, but I still need an answer.  Redundancy is better than nothing though; that is to say, we can express the same as "I love you" via "I love you", and body language, tone, dress, and everything else. I cannot decipher Liara's motive as to why she couldn't let Shepard go.  If love is her motive, a simple hug OR kiss, and nothing more, is not love to me, regardless of her information network seeking urges.  What really motivated Liara to risk everything for Shepard, and Feron?

I'm used to reading stories where motive is very, very important (murder mysteries), so being able to understand where a person is coming from is kind of important when things like people killing people are involved.  In this case, it's the character change from a timid shy girl to a revenge seeking woman who's lost/not lost her friends from life and death situations, with the whole universe at stake, whose spent 2 years on revenge on a person she's not even sure exists, then throws it out the door because one of them might be alive, which somehow ends up in killing the target of her revenge anyway.  Now I've read entire stories on revenge: she's not completely typical, and her attitude is more of a facade, but we don't quite understand any of that.  Can you even call it character development?  I don't see how revenge seeking Liara is any different than SB Liara.  But even then, I can't quite decipher what kind of change that is.  I can guess she's happier now that her revenge is over with, and she has her two friends back, but she's still sifting through data, trying to save the galaxy, I guess, because of Shepard.  I think.

[Killjoy Cutter]

smudboy wrote...

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

Smud, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the "Because I couldn't let you go..." bit said if and only if Liara is your love interest from ME1?

She says that to a non-romanced shep as well.

I never got the line (5 playthrough's!).

Is it dependent on the selected dialog options by any chance?

When you finish her quest with the 5 Observers, and you choose the left dialog option and then the top left most one, you lose the option of selecting the bottom left option (check the youtube video here) where she tells you.  However, I noticed LOTSB overwrites this part of the main game, so I'm not sure if it's possible to play through...(which means Nyxeris still lives.)

She's dead in both of my full playthroughs of ME2 since installing LotSB.  

Just don't talk to Liara about the leads from Cerberus until after you get the info on the five contact and radio her about it.  The receptionist's desk is then empty.

[Killjoy Cutter]

smudboy wrote...

FlyinElk212 wrote...

smudboy wrote...
Think about this:
Would you prefer:
"I couldn't let you go, because I love you.  But more than that: you're the most important person in the galaxy.  If we don't have you, I feel none of us are going to survive the Reapers.  You're special.  I can't quite...you are..." Liara turns around, being too emotional to continue.

Or

"I couldn't let you go?"

If you're happy with the second?  Good.  For.  You.  We're done.

To start, I agree on most of your points when it comes to anything storywise with Mass Effect 2, but in this particular instance I disagree.

As a writer, you have to give your audience some credit: writing everything out and hitting your audience over the head with information can really ruin story immersion. Instead, you have your character make inferences, and through their body language and carefully constructed sentences, you make believable reactions to certain situations.

If Liara went with your option one, heck, if the Bioware writers structured ALL of their writing like that, it'd make the characters seem less believable. People don't walk around stating, "I did _________ because of _____________", or "I feel ______________ because of ______________" all the time. In Liara's instance, perhaps she didn't want to divulge too much. Maybe she didn't WANT Shepard to know that her reasoning for bringing Shepard back was more personal/emotional and less about saving the galaxy. It's a believable reaction, and more importantly, is a much more clever way to reveal that tidbit of info without hitting us over the head with it.

That's my intepretation of the situation, anyway: the writers have PURPOSELY made Liara say option 2, while inferring option 1. I know you're a guy who likes details, and would probably still prefer option 1, but doing so means the character's believability, dialogue, and overall storytelling all takes hits.

Allowing the audience to use inferences, or allusions to, or implications, is all well and good.  The question is: what exactly is Liara alluding to?

I also do not need to be hit over the head with a simple answer, but I still need an answer.  Redundancy is better than nothing though; that is to say, we can express the same as "I love you" via "I love you", and body language, tone, dress, and everything else. I cannot decipher Liara's motive as to why she couldn't let Shepard go.  If love is her motive, a simple hug OR kiss, and nothing more, is not love to me, regardless of her information network seeking urges.  What really motivated Liara to risk everything for Shepard, and Feron?

I'm used to reading stories where motive is very, very important (murder mysteries), so being able to understand where a person is coming from is kind of important when things like people killing people are involved.  In this case, it's the character change from a timid shy girl to a revenge seeking woman who's lost/not lost her friends from life and death situations, with the whole universe at stake, whose spent 2 years on revenge on a person she's not even sure exists, then throws it out the door because one of them might be alive, which somehow ends up in killing the target of her revenge anyway.  Now I've read entire stories on revenge: she's not completely typical, and her attitude is more of a facade, but we don't quite understand any of that.  Can you even call it character development?  I don't see how revenge seeking Liara is any different than SB Liara.  But even then, I can't quite decipher what kind of change that is.  I can guess she's happier now that her revenge is over with, and she has her two friends back, but she's still sifting through data, trying to save the galaxy, I guess, because of Shepard.  I think.

I guess I missed where Liara throws revenge agains the SB out the door after finding out that Shepherd is alive.  I recall her telling me that she couldn't come with me because she had to get the SB. 

Her motivation for trying to help Ferron?  She says he was captured making sure that she got away with Shep's corpse, doesn't she?  Some people are motivated by the sense that they owe someone.

As for why she cares for Shep, and goes to those lengths to save him, well, it's not as if we need to have that spoon fed to us, it's pretty obvious if you pay attention.  And you actually do have to talk to the characters in the games.  Non-coversational clues as to these things aren't going to be very common, it's not the way that ME1 or ME2 is constructed. 

[smudboy]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
I guess I missed where Liara throws revenge agains the SB out the door after finding out that Shepherd is alive.  I recall her telling me that she couldn't come with me because she had to get the SB. 

Feron.

Where?

Her motivation for trying to help Ferron?  She says he was captured making sure that she got away with Shep's corpse, doesn't she?  Some people are motivated by the sense that they owe someone.

I am not arguing that revenge for what the SB did to Feron is an issue.  That fact that is clear.  It becomes lampshaded when she discovers Feron is alive, and instead of getting more angry, she just says "I've spent two years plotting revenge.  Now I have the chance to make it a rescue."  So out the door goes the revenge.

As for why she cares for Shep, and goes to those lengths to save him, well, it's not as if we need to have that spoon fed to us, it's pretty obvious if you pay attention.  And you actually do have to talk to the characters in the games.  Non-coversational clues as to these things aren't going to be very common, it's not the way that ME1 or ME2 is constructed. 

I paid attention.  It's not obvious.  Due point out where and why she states she goes to those great lengths, if you please.

[TMA LIVE]

Smud, why won't you except that "Because I couldn't let you go" means "I love you even if you don't love me, and I didn't want you out of my life, even as a friend"? It doesn't sound that complex to not understand.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 26 septembre 2010 - 08:59 .

[Sorwis]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

Great stuff, as always.

Pretty much this.

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

blocked me for laying a legitimate criticism, guy is a total child.

[TMA LIVE]

smudboy wrote...

I am not arguing that revenge for what the SB did to Feron is an issue.  That fact that is clear.  It becomes lampshaded when she discovers Feron is alive, and instead of getting more angry, she just says "I've spent two years plotting revenge.  Now I have the chance to make it a rescue."  So out the door goes the revenge.

My guess is that, in the beginning, all she cared about was saving Feron because he's responsible for saving both Liara and Shepard's corpse (I think one of her dialogue scenes even claims he's "the man that's responsible for both us of being alive right now". Or something like that.)  Also in the comics, she had to pick between saving him and saving Shepard's corpse. So that's deep guilt right there. However, after 2 years have gone by, she somewhat gave up on Feron still being alive, and decided to just avenge him to make up for leaving him behind to die. Then Shepard comes by, and shows he's still alive, and where he might be. Thus, she drops revenge, and settles on just saving him.

Here's my question for you Smud:

Do you consider it insane that she did all this to save one man she's known for one day? From making an information business which involved threating costumers, killing Shadow Broker agents just for data, and doing work where the bodies still smell, plus getting people killed and willing to do it again?

[AmstradHero]

smudboy wrote...

Like I said: agree to disagree.
Peace out.

Nope.  That comment is for fools who can't achieve proper reasoning.

Ah, right. So everyone who disagrees with you can't reason properly?

Here I was thinking that accepting that other people can have different opinions was a sign of basic courtesy. Thanks for pointing out the error of my ways, smudboy.

Goodbye.

Modifié par AmstradHero, 26 septembre 2010 - 09:52 .

[wulf3n]

Pretty good video, though not as good as your others. I didn't understand the point of the whole calling Feron, Thane. Maybe you were trying to imply that the drell are too similar, but i don't think it really added anything to the video. Also the condescending voices you did in this one, seemed a bit...tackier i suppose, for lack of a better word, almost as if you were doing the whole baby talk thing.

[smudboy]

TMA LIVE wrote...

Smud, why won't you except that "Because I couldn't let you go" means "I love you even if you don't love me, and I didn't want you out of my life, even as a friend"? It doesn't sound that complex to not understand.

I think I know what she's trying to say.  I have a few good ideas, but she's not telling or showing me.

[smudboy]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

blocked me for laying a legitimate criticism, guy is a total child.

I block people who are total toolboxes, or swear for no reason.  You're not helping.

Got a legitimate criticism?  Go right ahead.

[smudboy]

TMA LIVE wrote...
Do you consider it insane that she did all this to save one man she's known for one day? From making an information business which involved threating costumers, killing Shadow Broker agents just for data, and doing work where the bodies still smell, plus getting people killed and willing to do it again?

Insane is one large blanket word for it.  It's hard to say.  I didn't see that part of the story (is that the comic?). How it was presented, for us to figure out what's going on, would be very important, but I'm guessing that format isn't big on exposition.

It could be her trying to emote what she's feeling over Shepard: that if another came by and tried to save her, she would want to help.

[TMA LIVE]

smudboy wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Smud, why won't you except that "Because I couldn't let you go" means "I love you even if you don't love me, and I didn't want you out of my life, even as a friend"? It doesn't sound that complex to not understand.

I think I know what she's trying to say.  I have a few good ideas, but she's not telling or showing me.

Well, if it's love, that's it. But if it's "I love you even though you don't love me", she might think it's shameful. I mean, she told most Shepard's she's attracted to him, and he turned her down and went for someone else. Or is with someone else. Saying I did this out of love despite him not loving her back, and probably never will, is probably a bit hurting for her. She even says she thought he'd hate her. I mean, would you even have the emotional guts to say more?

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 26 septembre 2010 - 10:24 .