293 réponses à ce sujet

[smudboy]

AmstradHero wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Like I said: agree to disagree.
Peace out.

Nope.  That comment is for fools who can't achieve proper reasoning.

Ah, right. So everyone who disagrees with you can't reason properly?

Here I was thinking that accepting that other people can have different opinions was a sign of basic courtesy. Thanks for pointing out the error of my ways, smudboy.

Goodbye.

No.  I feel everyone who uses the "agree to disagree" is either tired of beating a dead horse, or unable to comprehend what the other is arguing.

It is not a sign of courtsey to think improperly.  That is the worst thing I could do.  I have already seen the other side of the argument: the acceptance of everything at face value, to conjure up your own ideas as to why Liara could be acting this way, how someone with vengeance on their mind for 2 years should behave (after realizing said person isn't alive and has been TORTURED for 2 years), the dismissal of said vengeance, and then the contrived conclusion of killing said previous target of revenge.  Also how Liara became this way, and her lack of interest in Shepard, still aren't shown or told well.

Hello.

[smudboy]

TMA LIVE wrote...

smudboy wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Smud, why won't you except that "Because I couldn't let you go" means "I love you even if you don't love me, and I didn't want you out of my life, even as a friend"? It doesn't sound that complex to not understand.

I think I know what she's trying to say.  I have a few good ideas, but she's not telling or showing me.

Well, if it's love, that's it. But if it's "I love you even though you don't love me", she might think it's shameful. I mean, she told most Shepard's she's attracted to him, and he turned her down and went for someone else. Or is with someone else. Saying I did this out of love despite him not loving her back, and probably never will, is probably a bit hurting for her. She even says she thought she'd hate her. I mean, would you even have the emotional guts to say more?

But we don't know.  You can play ME1 without talking to any crew members, I think.  I also believe she's articulate enough to express herself.  If the feeling of what Shepard means to her and the realization that they're Jesus is so profound, well, she certainly didn't look or act like the Second Coming.

For one, I do not know how the mind of a person would be, who risked everything on the chance that they could become Jesus would feel.  I'm guessing a humble hero complex.

If you are planning revenge, that is, one has a hatred for another for 2 years, and have spent every day toward that goal, then dash it aside because you find said revenge may involve saving the proposed target from the cause of that revenge, and then end up being revengeful in the end anyway because of Evil Bad Guy Electric Torture Device #10 is hooked up to the Matrix, there's a disconnect.

"We need to rescue Feron, and kill the Shadow Broker" would've been just fine.

[smudboy]

wulf3n wrote...

Pretty good video, though not as good as your others. I didn't understand the point of the whole calling Feron, Thane. Maybe you were trying to imply that the drell are too similar, but i don't think it really added anything to the video. Also the condescending voices you did in this one, seemed a bit...tackier i suppose, for lack of a better word, almost as if you were doing the whole baby talk thing.

Did you see what happened when Feron got free?

[TMA LIVE]

smudboy wrote...
But we don't know.  You can play ME1 without talking to any crew members, I think.  I also believe she's articulate enough to express herself.  If the feeling of what Shepard means to her and the realization that they're Jesus is so profound, well, she certainly didn't look or act like the Second Coming.

Yeah, but I can say the same with Tali being in love with Shepard despite being treated like crap in ME1. Or why Garrus respects Shepard, despite being ditched at the elevator in ME1.

I'm just saying, if she did do it out of love, which could have, hell, happened in the short month after ME1 before the Normandy got attacked, or whatever, but Shepard is in love with someone else, most would shy away from telling him that. She wouldn't tell him "I did all this because I love you, even though you'll never love me, and already with Ash, Miranda, or whatever. Plus risked Cerberus turning you into a Terminator because I care that much." It's like if you're best friend did crazy **** for you because she loved you (and some of it behind your back), but doesn't want to tell you because you're with someone else, and she doesn't want to screw things up between you and her.

smudboy wrote...
If you are planning revenge, that is, one has a hatred for another for 2 years, and have spent every day toward that goal, then dash it aside because you find said revenge may involve saving the proposed target from the cause of that revenge, and then end up being revengeful in the end anyway because of Evil Bad Guy Electric Torture Device #10 is hooked up to the Matrix, there's a disconnect.

"We need to rescue Feron, and kill the Shadow Broker" would've been just fine.

The hatred probably came from thinking Feron is dead, and she has to avenge him. But with him officially not being dead, don't you think she'd rather "Save Feron, revenge later" if Feron was her true goal?

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 26 septembre 2010 - 10:51 .

[wulf3n]

smudboy wrote...

Did you see what happened when Feron got free?

Ok, i think i understand now. I still think it could have been explained better in the video.

[TMA LIVE]

smudboy wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...
Do you consider it insane that she did all this to save one man she's known for one day? From making an information business which involved threating costumers, killing Shadow Broker agents just for data, and doing work where the bodies still smell, plus getting people killed and willing to do it again?

Insane is one large blanket word for it.  It's hard to say.  I didn't see that part of the story (is that the comic?). How it was presented, for us to figure out what's going on, would be very important, but I'm guessing that format isn't big on exposition.

It could be her trying to emote what she's feeling over Shepard: that if another came by and tried to save her, she would want to help.

Well, in the comic, Liara is running to get inside a ship with Shepard's body. She turns around and sees Feron getting the **** beat out of him, while he's telling her to go. She then turns around and see's a Collector about to enter the ship, and kicks him off, enters the ship, and flies away.

Later, after learning that Cerberus isn't going to go after Feron, Miranda tells her to do what she wants to do. And Liara says that's exactly what she's going to do because she now has another friend to save.

Why they don't go into the details in ME2? *shrugs* They want you to buy comics.

[TMA LIVE]

Anyways, 2 years later, she still hasn't been able to save him. She doesn't know if he's dead or being interrogator, and hasn't seen any proof of either. At that point, the only way to pay him back is to get revenge for his death. Plus stop the Shadow Broker for trying to sell Shepard's corpse, and working with the Collectors (and from what Feron says, Shepard wasn't the only thing the Shadow Broker did for them).

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 27 septembre 2010 - 12:29 .

[smudboy]

TMA LIVE wrote...

Yeah, but I can say the same with Tali being in love with Shepard despite being treated like crap in ME1. Or why Garrus respects Shepard, despite being ditched at the elevator in ME1.

I'm just saying, if she did do it out of love, which could have, hell, happened in the short month after ME1 before the Normandy got attacked, or whatever, but Shepard is in love with someone else, most would shy away from telling him that. She wouldn't tell him "I did all this because I love you, even though you'll never love me, and already with Ash, Miranda, or whatever. Plus risked Cerberus turning you into a Terminator because I care that much." It's like if you're best friend did crazy **** for you because she loved you (and some of it behind your back), but doesn't want to tell you because you're with someone else, and she doesn't want to screw things up between you and her.

The question of what kind of new personality she has would contradict whatever she's currently going through if the issue becomes "she doesn't want to share for reason n": we either are told or shown what happened, or there is a reference or hand wave as to why we can't be told or shown to that information.  We get neither.  The narrative must acknowledge the change in a person if there was supposed to be any development.  We can't know the multi-faceted reasons of the Liara character if all she says is "I couldn't let you go" and having spent 2 years of revenge (which just seems to be information gathering.)  As such, Liara could've been Conrad Verner, Tali, or anyone new for that matter.

]
The hatred probably came from thinking Feron is dead, and she has to avenge him. But with him officially not being dead, don't you think she'd rather "Save Feron, revenge later" if Feron was her true goal?

Yes her priorities change, as one would want to save the person which caused one to be all revengeful -- however -- we're talking about having someone as a prisoner for 2 years.  1) "OMG!  My friend's alive!  I must go save him. THEN 2) I am going to crush the SB...slowly.  One goal can supercede the other, but it doesn't void the other: quite the opposite, it emphazies and accentuates it.  But we never get that from a 2 year long vengeful woman, who wants to crush the SB into the size of a coffee cup.  But magically, the SB ends up dying anyway.  Instead of being this great cathartic closing to her story of vengeance that should've been built up as we go, it becomes a story of necessity in order to free and save Feron's life.

[TMA LIVE]

smudboy wrote...

Yes her priorities change, as one would want to save the person which caused one to be all revengeful -- however -- we're talking about having someone as a prisoner for 2 years.  1) "OMG!  My friend's alive!  I must go save him. THEN 2) I am going to crush the SB...slowly.  One goal can supercede the other, but it doesn't void the other: quite the opposite, it emphazies and accentuates it.  But we never get that from a 2 year long vengeful woman, who wants to crush the SB into the size of a coffee cup.  But magically, the SB ends up dying anyway.  Instead of being this great cathartic closing to her story of vengeance that should've been built up as we go, it becomes a story of necessity in order to free and save Feron's life.

Yeah, I get what you're saying. But after reading the comic, and listening to what she says, her reasons for revenge were pretty weak from the very beginning. In the comic, her hatred for the Shadow Broker was because he was trying to sell Shepard's corpse, and it made her ANGRY! And her other reason was for imprisoning or killing Feron. Though I can understand a need to stop him, her "I HAVE TO DESTROY HIM! YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT HE DID! I'M GOING TO TAKE HIM DOWN!" attitude didn't really match. So I think they tried to do a repair job, and turn it into a focus on Feron.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 27 septembre 2010 - 02:46 .

[hitorihanzo]

smudboy wrote...

(1 of 2) Video Analysis of ME2: Lair of the Shadow Broker

... That was the worst **** I've ever heard.  I turned it off after a minute.  One, don't have a pleasant voice to listen to.  Two, you're like, the "Anti-Funny".

[smudboy]

TMA LIVE wrote...

Yeah, I get what you're saying. But after reading the comic, and listening to what she says, her reasons for revenge were pretty weak from the very beginning. In the comic, her hatred for the Shadow Broker was because he was trying to sell Shepard's corpse, and it made her ANGRY! And her other reason was for imprisoning or killing Feron. Though I can understand a need to stop him, her "I HAVE TO DESTROY HIM! YOU DON'T YOU WHAT HE DID! I'M GOING TO TAKE HIM DOWN!" attitude didn't really match. So I think they tried to do a repair job, and turn it into a focus on Feron.

That doesn't sound too appealing.

Comics on average aren't the greatest medium for character exposition, but sometimes I'm surprised (Lone Wolf and Cub does a superbly epic tale of revenge, and being the definitive samurai comic.)  Liara's revenge is really all that's clear in ME2 as to why she's going after the SB.

If Feron wasn't involved, we'd have an even harder time believing what the hell happened to Liara.  From some jpgs of previews it seems she turned into a typical action hero, not too different from LOTSB scenes of Liara biotic punching guards out of her way as she chases Tela.  As I stated in the vid, without Feron, there's 2) only her hatred for having them taking Shepard's body (upon which, I'd imagine the SB would've been seeking revenge on Liara, not the other way around, since she foiled his business deal), and 3) the SB's potential relationship with the Collectors and their other potential activities, which are bad, or something.  Feron's loss is really all she's got, and after two years, his discovery should not have voided her other, murderous, and much more interesting motive: we might've actually learned what's going on under that murderous facade.

[xlavaina]

hitorihanzo wrote...

smudboy wrote...

(1 of 2) Video Analysis of ME2: Lair of the Shadow Broker

... That was the worst **** I've ever heard.  I turned it off after a minute.  One, don't have a pleasant voice to listen to.  Two, you're like, the "Anti-Funny".

Don't make comments that aren't necessary. If you can't convey your opinion in a mature way don't voice it. 

Shandepared wrote...

The comic should have been about Tali. It'd have been a lot more believable. She'd have to work with Cerberus despite them being very recent enemies of her people. Furthermore if she found out that the Shadow Broker planned to murder her along her desire for revenge might be a little believable. Plus, we saw her doing badass commando **** when we first met her.

Agreed. I just hate the fact that the damned comics are about Miranda and Jacob and Cerberus and TIM and bleh.... Not something I want to read: a comic on purely new characters. Then theres Liara and her "bloodthirstyness", which as smudboy accurately pointed out, has no reason to exist from a character development standpoint. I don't want to read about that either. 

Give me more old ME1 characters. Lets hear a little bit on Joker's background. How he overcame all odds of Vrolik's syndrome and became the best of the best. As you said, how about Tali? There's so much to discuss when it comes to her its almost painful to think about. Then there's Garrus, who has the perfect setup as being the polar opposite of Tali: we know almost nothing about him. Lets learn more about him! 

K sorry I'm diverging. 

[earthbornFemShep]

eh, I can see some of your points, but I don't agree with most of them.



I was, however, upset by the fact that you can't save Vasir. I would think that at the end of that boss fight you could have a paragon interrupt to give her some medigel after your little chat with her. I would have saved her because I honestly don't see her as a completely irredeemable character. She just shouldn't have ****ed with Shep's friend.



There should have been a way to reason with her and get her as an ally if you decided to save her. Through her conversations with Shep, she seems to have a genuine respect for her/him (even though she was using Shep to find Liara). It was a shame they let her die.

[earthbornFemShep]

Shandepared wrote...

The comic should have been about Tali. It'd have been a lot more believable. She'd have to work with Cerberus despite them being very recent enemies of her people. Furthermore if she found out that the Shadow Broker planned to murder her along her desire for revenge might be a little believable. Plus, we saw her doing badass commando **** when we first met her.

I disagree.  Tali puts her duty to the fleet above all else.  She had a responsibility to go back to her people and finish her pilgramage.  Though she admires Shepard immensely, I don't see her risking life and limb to save a corpse.  (This is not to say that she wouldn't have mourned Shep.)  She's just too practical and takes her quarian honor very seriously.  Going off to chase a dead spectre would not (directly) help the fleet. 

Liara on the other hand is far more passionate and impetuous  (both in general and about Shepard).  Also, she is a young asari!  (As we have seen, young asari do many impulsive and potentially dangerous things: merc groups, "dancing", prostitution, etc.)  She also just lost her only parent (that she knows of) and couldn't bear losing someone else that was so important to her. I think it makes sense that she be griefstricken enough to find her friend's body.  Her revenge against the Shadow Broker is also believable because she did grow quite fond of Feron.  (You seem to be forgetting how few friends Liara has had--being as secluded as she was as an archeologist.  I think she is a bit overprotective of the few she has).

EDIT:  Though, yes, I concede that there is no explanation for why she became such a badass.  In the first comic she seemed to have a completely different personality...  with absolutely no explanation except that Shep might be dead.

Modifié par earthbornFemShep, 27 septembre 2010 - 05:21 .

[earthbornFemShep]

Shandepared wrote...

My point was that if Liara can go from being a mildmannered archeologist to a badass commando all because Cerberus thinks they can bring Shepard back to life then so can Tali. 

I think where we differ is in our interpretations of Tali's character.  I just don't see her being as easily manipulated as Liara is by the loss of Shepard.  But I can see your point: if Liara's character can change so drastically, why can't Tali? 

That being said, I think Liara was the right choice.  Tali's character has no shortage of backstory and potential future threads (mainly due to the potential of war with the geth).  I think scripting Liara to take over as the Shadow Broker is the right move.  The Shadow Broker is an important position to keep alive in the ME universe.  I don't see Tali wanting to take that role if she were to defeat him.

EDIT:

Shandepared wrote...
I get the impression he was turned into a badguy simply becaue the
writers felt having two information brokers (the other being TIM) was
too much.

In the end I feel the Shadow Broker plot is just clutter, much like the excessive number of squadmates. 

I think that this was set up from the start.  At the end of ME2 (no matter if you keep or destroy the base) Shepard and the Illusive Man have some serious words that indicate hostility and suspicion.  You can even cut ties with him. (Jacob mentions you quitting and Miranda even resigns from Cerberus if you take her to kill the human reaper.)   I think that in ME3, Liara will be a primary focus and will replace TIM.  That is why she needed to become the Shadow Broker.  The SB was an important plot device, just not in the way I originally expected.

Modifié par earthbornFemShep, 27 septembre 2010 - 06:12 .

[cihimi]

Yawn

[Gibb_Shepard]

Shandepared wrote...

earthbornFemShep wrote...

I think that this was set up from the start.

No, you misunderstood me. I mean that the Shadow Broker plot that started in Redemption, which ultimately includes the recent DLC, was un-necessary.

The lead up to the recent DLC should have been handled differently, but the ending of the DLC is a very necessary part of the overall plot. We now have a reliable information source who is not politically based (The Alliance/Council) and not untrustworthy (TIM).

Modifié par Gibb_Shepard, 27 septembre 2010 - 06:37 .

[Gibb_Shepard]

[Edit 27 Sept 2010: Removal of a slightly less indirect insult. -- Pacifien]

Modifié par Pacifien, 27 septembre 2010 - 07:49 .

[Gibb_Shepard]

[Edit 27 Sept 2010: Removal of a direct insult. -- Pacifien]

Modifié par Pacifien, 27 septembre 2010 - 07:51 .

[Pacifien]

Okay, once again, I'd like to remind people that I have a zero tolerance policy about insults here. So for the third time, which I guess makes the first sentence in the quote incorrect, my warning:

Pacifien wrote...
This is going to be my one and only warning to everybody who posts to this thread.

This is someone's review. He is not forcing you to watch it. If you do watch it, feel free to discuss the points he made in that review. If you start insulting each other, I'll ban you. If you think it's okay to insult someone because they insulted you first, I'll ban both of you. If you insinuate an insult, I'll ban you.

Read the Site Rules which you all agree to abide simply by posting here. No flame wars. Thank you.