35 réponses à ce sujet

[Ares Caesar]

(Would've posted in strategy/build forums, but I dont meet the requirements...?)

Assuming access to ALL weapons in the game (DLC+various editions)

What would you (I guess some of this will be opinion), consider to be the best squadmate weapon setup?

I'm having a hard time deciding what assault rifles to use for my squad, as squadmates are so incredibly accurate with the high ROF weapons, but a gun like the Mattock is such high base damage.

Between the Submachine guns, I've had a small amount of difficulty choosing as well, because the Locust seems to provide more squadmate survivability in that they dont seem to stay out of cover as long, and do more damage per volley, but the Tempest clearly does more damage in general due to squadmates insane accuracy with it. I tend to favor the Tempest, but given how I've seen squadmates seem to get hit less with the Locust, I'm wondering what other players have found.

Please list your thoughts, and observations, I realize much of this is opinion, not fact, but from a general consensus of opinions, I think we can at least get some basis of "fact"

*ps* do NOT reply with "They're all good, its just up to what you choose!" because that does not contribute anything helpful to the discussion... if I wanted a vague answer, I'd ask a game promoter being paid to boast about the game, not the hardcore players like myself who also post here as well. 

Thanks in advance for all serious replies.

[Chiyeko]

Vindicator for assault rifles

Incisor for snipers

Locust for SMG

MP5/6 or something heavy pistol (DLC one)

GPS



that's is what I use, but I am not a high difficulty player.

[Ares Caesar]

Chiyeko wrote...

Vindicator for assault rifles
Incisor for snipers
Locust for SMG
MP5/6 or something heavy pistol (DLC one)
GPS

that's is what I use, but I am not a high difficulty player.

Thanks for the reply

I was very disappointed after buying the Incisor for my infiltrator only to find out using the Viper or Mantis was much more effective/easier to use, but was pleasantly surprised to find out how AWESOME it is for squadmates. My team of Garrus and Thane with the Incisor practically allow me to not shoot at all, and simply micro manage powers lol.

[Chiyeko]

Ares Caesar wrote...

Chiyeko wrote...

Vindicator for assault rifles
Incisor for snipers
Locust for SMG
MP5/6 or something heavy pistol (DLC one)
GPS

that's is what I use, but I am not a high difficulty player.

Thanks for the reply

I was very disappointed after buying the Incisor for my infiltrator only to find out using the Viper or Mantis was much more effective/easier to use, but was pleasantly surprised to find out how AWESOME it is for squadmates. My team of Garrus and Thane with the Incisor practically allow me to not shoot at all, and simply micro manage powers lol.

Yes it is great for squad mates and I got it from the game anyway, prefer the viper myself, though I play mostly as adept

[hooahguy]

Locust, GPS, Mattock,Phalanx pistol, Incisor.

For all members to each their own.

[Pacifien]

Thread move!

[lazuli]

Some people argue for the Shuriken as its burst fire might keep companions in cover more often. Odds are good that your SMG wielding companions aren't along for their weapon damage alone, so this might help keep them alive long enough to get some use out of their powers.

[Simbacca]

Carnifex
Tempest
Geth Plasma Shotgun
Vindicator
Incisor

[Ares Caesar]

lazuli wrote...

Some people argue for the Shuriken as its burst fire might keep companions in cover more often. Odds are good that your SMG wielding companions aren't along for their weapon damage alone, so this might help keep them alive long enough to get some use out of their powers.

I've read that suggestion from a few others. My thoughts on the idea of that would be if you played a character with NO ammo powers or decided to go for heavy ammo version rather than squad version, since the damage would be so incredibly low and the addition of any real ammo power (other than maybe squad cryo) would be negligable as far as squad damage increase via the ammo power. So I think thats definitely a valid strategy (-high cover, high power use, low shooting-especially on harder playthroughs). Anyone else agree or disagree?

Simbacca wrote...

Carnifex
Tempest
Geth Plasma Shotgun
Vindicator
Incisor

This seems to be the consensus loadout I'm getting from most people.

The most interesting ones to me (which is sad) is that the Tempest is SO much better for squadmates than the Locust (I'm still trying to determine if they cover more with the Locust than Tempest), and that the Mattock doesnt seem to have the same squadmate value that it does for the player. Is the Vindicator superiority because of higher ROF? Does anyone feel (similar to earlier issue between locust vs tempest vs shuriken) that the Mattock offers more cover/survivability for squadmates than the Vindicator?

I realize that in the end, it seems to make little difference if you play well and manage squadmates well... but this is a strategy forum, and I'm one of those nutballs who has to have the most efficient setup (not to mention what other nerdy/obsession things would I be talking about otherwise?)

Modifié par Ares Caesar, 23 septembre 2010 - 05:43 .

[ryoldschool]

This is exactly the question I wanted to figure out. I tried to compare the Tempest vs the Locust on squadmates. Ran thru the IFF mission ( before the core ).



Had all upgrades, playing soldier, with squad cryo on Insanity, on xbox. Shepard used the cryo ammo on all guns also, no heavy weapons ammo used.



Miranda and Samara ( both on SMG ) Tempest 981, Locust 960

Miranda and Kasumi ( both on SMG ) Tempest 947, Locust 991

Mordin and Kasumi ( both on SMG ) Tempest 983, Locust 934



Measured the seconds to clear the areas ( skipping cutscenes )



They do a lot of shooting on this map, and only have to worry about the Scions killing them as long as you keep them close to you. You do a lot of shooting also. It looks like the other gameplay factors matter more than the difference in the SMG - neither is superior.

[Alamar2078]

I could be wrong but I prefer to give "easy to use" weapons to my squadmates.



Assault: Geth [pull the trigger and bullets fly] ... They don't fire Mattock & Vindy often enough

SMG: Tempest

Pistol: Carnifex

Sniper: Incisor

Shotty: Geth [Except for Grunt]



Note: If the Shuriken or the burst weapons keep folks alive longer they become something to look at hard!!

[OniGanon]

Just from general observation, I've noted that squadmates with the Locust fire very small bursts (it sounds like 5 shots), while with the Tempest they empty the whole clip. Miranda's Tempest does a noticeable chunk of my damage and freezing. I never really notice the same from Kasumi's Locust.

[EffectedByTheMasses]

I normally go carnifex for pistols, viper for sniper rifles, katana for shotguns, Avenger/GPR for assault rifles and tempest for smgs, the logic being that katana/carnifex/viper/tempest are all effective freeze guns with squad cryo, and avenger/GPR have good suppressing fire.



Note: I don't have any dlc at the moment. From what I've seen I would give squadmates GPS and incisor if I had them.

[Chugster]

is the incisor better than the Widow for Legion? or should i just leave Garrus, Thane and Zaeed with the incisor?

[PrinceLionheart]

Chugster wrote...

is the incisor better than the Widow for Legion? or should i just leave Garrus, Thane and Zaeed with the incisor?

Legion should definitely take the Widow.

[Alamar2078]

Ooops ... I should have said Legion gets the Widow [I forgot him]

[demersel]

Ok. That is on my mind also. and a lot. No tests just pure gameplay. I tried to compare weapons on Overlord mission, but that is not conclusive. Insanity difficulty



assault rifle: avanger. vendicator is close second. Higher rate of fire gives avanger a supressing value, Squadmates can break burst and cover any time (they actually do that, when taking damage). With vindicator they seem to be in need to fire at least 3 series of burst before considering taking cover. Mattock doesn't really do much. it's ok but not noticable. Collector assault rifle is useless. Squadmates seem to do NO damage at all with this weapon. Haven't used Geth rifle much, couse of the broken model display. (it appears lower than it should when holstered - that is major ugly)



SMG: not much diffirence. Tempest seem to be better, though shuriken seem to rule in close combat... Tempest.



Pistol: Predator is better then cornifex on squadmates.



Shotgun: Eviscerator. Or GPS



Sniper rifles: Take any. they miss anyway (at least for me)







SMG:

[cruc1al]

I'm pretty sure Mattock > Vindicator for squadmates in terms of damage, and also Carnifex > Phalanx for damage. Also, Tempest on shield/barrier missions, locust on armor missions. Tempest is really accurate when used by squadmates, beats locust v. shields. Incisor is by far the most damaging sniper, but I consider it a bit broken... Though I'd keep Widow on Legion.

[ScroguBlitzen]

I don't use DLC weapons personally since I consider them a bit OP, but here is where I think they make sense on your squad mates (for immersion reasons):

Zaeed -> Mattock

Kasumi -> Locust

Tali -> GPS

Thane -> Incisor

[Ares Caesar]

It seems to me, that if not staggered or interrupted they(squadmates) fire about half a clip for each weapon between cover-burst-cover, and given the likely programming, it seems a fair assumption at least as far as easy math is concerned for both my following calcs and the programming aspects. Of course if anyone can offer more concrete evidence PLEASE DO, because I'd love to really crunch some numbers, and its pretty hard to get an accurate assessment given the massive amount of variables involved in even collecting data on this stuff. Below I've listed some VERY ARBITRARY calcs for the SMGs... again I dont know exactly how many shots a squadmate is programmed to fire, but from some general info such as shots per trigger pull, clip size divided by trigger pull, and just "empirical data" (i.e. what others have thought, and what it seems like based on my playthroughs)


DAMAGE VALUES - Based on 1/2 clip bursting between cover

Locust-ShotsPerBurst-10*25damage= 250 damage per burst

Tempest-ShotsPerBurst-25*14damage= 350 damage per burst

Shuriken-ShotsPerBurst-12*20.5damage= 246 damage per burst

RESULTS = That means the Locust and Shuriken do approx. 30% LESS damage per burst, making the Tempest a CLEAR winner in the damage department.


SURVIVABILITY(Time spent shooting between cover), if each burst is 1/2 clip, then cover, here's the numbers on that;

Locust-550rpm= 9.16(RoundsPerSecond)/10(ShotsPerBurst)= 1.09 seconds of shooting between cover

Tempest-925rpm= 15.41(RoundsPerSecond)/25(ShotsPerBurst)= 1.62 seconds of shooting between cover

Shuriken-700rpm= 11.66(RoundsPerSecond)/12(ShotsPerBurst)= 1.02 seconds of shooting between cover

RESULTS = As some other "expert players" have suggested simply based on their empirical observations, the Shuriken is actually the most survivable weapon for squadmates, with the Locust in a close second, and the Tempest while providing FAR MORE damage, offers FAR LESS survivability.

FINAL THOUGHTS = Its a clear trade off on what you want your squad to provide. If you are playing on easier difficulties, using your squadmates more for powers than weapon damage or usually try to place yourself in the action more often as a damage sponge(Tanking), the Tempest is THE best weapon without a doubt, however if you're playing on Insanity or Hardcore and fighting ranged without taking the bulk of the enemy fire the Shuriken or Locust are better clearly as that HALF SECOND MORE of burst fire is easily enough damage from the enemy to significantly wound/kill squadmates. Between the Locust and Shuriken, I'd say it depends on the mission, if you're fighting Geth/Blue Suns the Shuriken looks to be the better weapon, where as against Bloodpack/Collectors and Multi-Shielded Mini Bosses/Bosses the Locust wins. I dont play on Insanity a lot, but I've been told that there is a lot more armor on insanity, so I'd say the Locust probably is the best choice, but that probably depends on what squad ammo powers you equip and what casting powers you have for armor. I also would question the value of the Tempest because of the likelyhood that each burst probably will nearly kill an enemy, especially with ammo powers and max research upgrades, and less enemies=less damage returned from enemies=less damage squadmates will likely take per burst, possibly improving its "survivability"... though health+shield recharge times might negate that aspect as well, probably again improving the survivability for the Locust and Shuriken. Its just so hard to get true values because of all the variables to account for.

*AGAIN LET ME STATE THAT THESE NUMBERS ARE ENTIRELY BASED ON ARBITRARY CALCULATIONS AND EMPIRICAL DATA NOT PROVEN FACT*
(so dont respond telling me I'm wrong, because I'm not saying I'm right in the first place, I'm just suggesting numbers based on what is easily calculated)

Also numerical values for weapons all taken from masseffect.wikia.com

Modifié par Ares Caesar, 25 septembre 2010 - 03:13 .

[ryoldschool]

Ares - that is why I ran my testing ( see earlier post this thread ) on Locust and Tempest with four different teammates. Not only was there not a 30% difference, there was no difference. Maybe on a map where there was a bunch of shields you might see a difference.

[Ares Caesar]

ryoldschool wrote...

Ares - that is why I ran my testing ( see earlier post this thread ) on Locust and Tempest with four different teammates. Not only was there not a 30% difference, there was no difference. Maybe on a map where there was a bunch of shields you might see a difference.

The only problem is you used SUCH a large and broad sample size to measure results.

You're looking at the 30% less damage dealt per burst inaccurately. It cannot be measured over the entire play of a mission, ESPECIALLY if you the player are involved in the shooting at all. Really the only way to measure is by taking about 100+ different situations of players individual battle scenarios (i.e. just a wave of enemies, not the entire mission). I mean really, what I'm hoping will work the best is the start of a mission such as one of those N7 side missions where the blue suns come out of the base right away and your squadmates are able to cover, pop out and shoot a burst(counting how many shots they fired), then return to cover. 

I mean its simple math that *if* they shoot a certain # of bullets at a certain rate of fire, and then return to cover (without getting hit/staggered/interrupted), that a certain weapon may provide more damage than another. However, thats not ALL that matters, especially if playing insanity or hardcore where the enemies are deadly accurate and every tenth of a second your squadmates spend out of cover means the difference between life and death. Hence the importance of finding out the "if ideal situations exist, squadmates equiped with weapon "X" will do the most damage with this weapon, where as with weapon "Y" they will perhaps do less damage but likely survive battles more often because they spend less time out of cover" which is important when playing high cover classes that tend to sit back and squadmates get fired at more often on account of it. Thus the need to understand which weapon actually would make them more survivable, as you(shepard) tend to deal the most damage, and your squadmates actually provide the bulk of damage via powers. Since you cant FORCE your squadmates to cover only and NOT use guns, its not as if you can bring them along and tell them to stay in cover and provide power support rather than weapon support.

Quite frankly, the more I think about it, the more I want to suggest to Bioware the implementation of "tactics" for squadmates, in that you can tell them HOW to play, so they arent just standing there blasting away at the scion while their shields are down and nearly dead and the scion is shockwaving the cr@p out of them.

Unfortunately, I'm stuck trying to create my OWN tactics via weapon selection based on how squadmembers tend to play with them.

[ryoldschool]

I disagree with your idea about measuring weapon effectiveness because you want to see a difference when you are actually playing a real mission. Your suggestion that you look at removing shepard from the shooting ( to measure a difference ) is not how the game is played and differences you see under those conditions would maybe not translate to real playing conditions.



I like your idea of being able to tell your squad to be agressive or not take risks by using a command - that would be an interesting concept for bioware to think about for ME3.

[Ares Caesar]

ryoldschool wrote...

I disagree with your idea about measuring weapon effectiveness because you want to see a difference when you are actually playing a real mission. Your suggestion that you look at removing shepard from the shooting ( to measure a difference ) is not how the game is played and differences you see under those conditions would maybe not translate to real playing conditions.

I like your idea of being able to tell your squad to be agressive or not take risks by using a command - that would be an interesting concept for bioware to think about for ME3.

The point of removing Shepard(yourself) is that you are likely going to taint the results, considering its nearly impossible to pay attention to the "average/programmed" Cover-Burst-Cover tactics of your squad while you're blasting away (how will you be able to count the shots?), not to mention how can you accurately measure the damage done from yourself each time unless you shoot an exact # of bullets.

I think I'm miscommunicating the point to you, because in reality if you kick butt, its not likely to be a HUGE difference between any of the weapons, but in that if you're trying to define HOW your squad will act so you may act in a desired way and your squad will best cooperate with the strategy/tactics you're trying to employ with your character/class.

Certain weapons clearly will lead to characters sticking out of cover longer (risking their lives-dead squadmates cant use powers) thus an emphasis on using weapons that make them pop in and out of cover for shorter durations(less damage received), and certain weapons will provide more damage between cover-shoot-cover, but might take longer for the whole process, likely resulting in more deaths with a certain weapon equiped.

From what I've seen, the Locust does seem to have shorter burst time then return to cover progression-meaning they would likely take less damage when using it-(hard to be sure when we're still only talking about a half second, but a half second can mean the difference of getting hit with 1-10 bullets from the enemy-depending on enemys weapon/rate of fire-) However when I've had the Tempest equiped I watch my squadies practically handle the enemies themselves with weapons alone if they arent getting blasted at (i.e. I'm taking most of the enemy fire), but it seems they also stick out of cover shooting for longer durations(meaning each burst time then return to cover is longer and they could potentially take more damage in return), so you have a trade off between damage provided, vs the chance they will survive longer because they arent sitting with their **** hanging out getting destroyed by the enemy.

But yes, the IDEAL situation would be in the character powerup menu that you could select some sort of options between supressing fire, high survival emphasis(stay in cover and shoot less) with heavy power support, aggressive forward enemy position assaulting(move forward from cover to cover aggressively) and various other tactical decisions. All of this would allow you to actually PLAY your character and micromanage squadmates less hopefully.

So the point of my calculations is that certain weapons artifically CREATE different tactics because of how quickly they shoot a typical burst and then return to cover, and the damage each burst tends to provide.

*edited a couple times hoping the idea is a bit more clear*

Modifié par Ares Caesar, 25 septembre 2010 - 06:47 .

[mosor]

ryoldschool wrote...

This is exactly the question I wanted to figure out. I tried to compare the Tempest vs the Locust on squadmates. Ran thru the IFF mission ( before the core ).

Had all upgrades, playing soldier, with squad cryo on Insanity, on xbox. Shepard used the cryo ammo on all guns also, no heavy weapons ammo used.

Miranda and Samara ( both on SMG ) Tempest 981, Locust 960
Miranda and Kasumi ( both on SMG ) Tempest 947, Locust 991
Mordin and Kasumi ( both on SMG ) Tempest 983, Locust 934

Measured the seconds to clear the areas ( skipping cutscenes )

They do a lot of shooting on this map, and only have to worry about the Scions killing them as long as you keep them close to you. You do a lot of shooting also. It looks like the other gameplay factors matter more than the difference in the SMG - neither is superior.

Not really a good location to judge SMG's because it all depends on how long does it take for cryo to kick in. With a carnifiex pistol it's 1 shot, with the smg, it's a lot more random. With the numbers as is though, your numbers are not really statistically significant when factoring in margin of error, which is going to be much greater than 3%.