105 réponses à ce sujet

[CalJones]

Point is elves no longer live that long (unless you're Zathrian and have indulged in blood magic). He's pretty much saving you from certain death. And whilst there's no guarantee you'd survive the joining, some chance is better than nothing, no?
I don't think it'd be unreasonable for a Dalish to mistrust Duncan (he is a shem, after all) or be upset to be torn from your clan, but the alternative isn't very pleasant.

Modifié par CalJones, 26 septembre 2010 - 03:38 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Thank you Cal, for making my points clearer. Duncan comes of very differently in each origin, and thus, your individual milage with him may vary. Unless you are a seriously unimaginitive roleplayer, each origin is very different, and the character one is playing in each will be different from others, in terms of attitude, prospects, worldview, ect. And the circumstances of each being recruited into the Wardens vary alot, as well as a character's willingness.



It is possible to play a human noble that is quite happy to join, looks forward to the opportunity, ect. Or a mage that doesn't want to leave the circle, or a CE or DC that wants to take their chances and stay with their families. Or a DN that wants to die honorably in the deep roads, ect. However, it is just as likely for a character to feel the opposite, as mine have, and it is perfectly logical and valid.



Like Cal said, as a player, I feel differently than my characters do. There are many ways to see Duncan: Savior, Ruthless Bastard, Useful ticket out of your problems, mentor, ect.

[Sarethus]

CalJones wrote...

You are confusing Skadi's and my characters' opinions with our actual opinions as players. As Skadi said, the different origins give varying views of Duncan - he is a saviour to some, but less so to others. If someone wants to roleplay their character as feeling hard done by, then that's perfectly fine.
Still, to address your points:

1) Metagaming. A lot of recruits die in the joining. Duncan doesn't know the Cousland kid will survive. He thinks they have a chance to, but there's no guarantee.

2) Of course it occurs to me. Your missing my point. Duncan obviously hopes the Cousland kid will survive. He needs recruits, after all. But he has no way of knowing that they will survive so his promise to Bryce Cousland is false. Hoping for something and guaranteeing it are two different things.

It's been a bit of time since I played the HN origin but did Duncan promise that he would make certain that the Cousland kid would survive no matter what or that he would survive the night (Howe's attack)? Those are two separate things and to be honest I always thought it was the latter.  

[Reika]

I just did the HNO again, he promised to get the kid out of the castle and to Ostagar.

[Bahlgan]

CalJones wrote...

You are confusing Skadi's and my characters' opinions with our actual opinions as players. As Skadi said, the different origins give varying views of Duncan - he is a saviour to some, but less so to others. If someone wants to roleplay their character as feeling hard done by, then that's perfectly fine.
Still, to address your points:

I have never heard Skadi's personal opinion on the matter. What you said is a given, based on the reactions of how many people love or hate him on this thread.

1) Metagaming. A lot of recruits die in the joining. Duncan doesn't know the Cousland kid will survive. He thinks they have a chance to, but there's no guarantee.

Hoping the Warden survives the joining doesn't make him anywhere, ANYWHERE near being a cold heartless bastard. MIght want to rethink on your diction, because your previous statement contradicts to me your understanding of his dreams.

2) Of course it occurs to me. Your missing my point. Duncan obviously hopes the Cousland kid will survive. He needs recruits, after all. But he has no way of knowing that they will survive so his promise to Bryce Cousland is false. Hoping for something and guaranteeing it are two different things.

I don't recall Duncan guaranteeing anything except that Howe will be dealt with. He never explained how or when. Besides, Duncan has only the best of intentions for his recruits and though he understands that not all his pick-ups were to survive the joining, it doesn't make him a cold heartless bastard. All other recruiters perform their business in the very same manner (in fact some might be worse). Duncan was VERY hesitant to recruit the Cousland at first because he didn't want to risk another exile or any direct miscommunication with the Teryn. Duncan merely responded "cold and heartlessly" when he knew that the warden had a chance to get payback against Arl Howe. A chance, yes, not a guarantee, but it was better than watching the warden die at the castle. Quite frankly, I see absolutely no warrant for your hasty claim that Duncan is heartless. If anything, he has a bigger heart than most in the DA universe for caring enough to give that Warden a chance to become something greater than anything he/she has become.

[Giggles_Manically]

Well Duncan is no paragon of virtue either.



He does whatever it takes to defeat the darkspawn. Also I do think he is cold, in the way he guts Jory like a fish. Then again thats just my view on him, I actually like the character just fine.

[Reika]

Well, he gutted Jory because Jory attacked him, can't say I blame him. You can see in that cutscene that Duncan really didn't want to do it, but what other choice did he have? If he disabled Jory, he'd either have to force Jory to drink from the chalice, or kill him anyway to keep him from causing trouble.



As for the HN recruitment, Duncan didn't want to, but his hand was forced by the whole situation. Besides once they were out of Highever, Duncan could use his status as Commander of the Grey to protect his new recruit.

[TJPags]

Keep in mind the circumstances under which Duncan makes those promises to Bryce. No, he never says "I'll make sure you're child survives to live a long life". But what is Bryce asking? Exactly that - make sure my child gets out of here and lives.



So while he doesn't actually lie, he sure does (IMO) mislead a dying man.



And he does tell the HN that he had gone to Ostagar to recruit Bryce's kid, so he clearly had that im mind.

[Persephone]

Reika wrote...

Well, he gutted Jory because Jory attacked him, can't say I blame him. You can see in that cutscene that Duncan really didn't want to do it, but what other choice did he have? If he disabled Jory, he'd either have to force Jory to drink from the chalice, or kill him anyway to keep him from causing trouble.

As for the HN recruitment, Duncan didn't want to, but his hand was forced by the whole situation. Besides once they were out of Highever, Duncan could use his status as Commander of the Grey to protect his new recruit.

Jory did not attack him. He backed up against the wall. The fight started when Duncan went for his dagger.

[Reika]

Persephone wrote...

Jory did not attack him. He backed up against the wall. The fight started when Duncan went for his dagger.

Jory backed up to the wall with his sword drawn and waving it around. That's a pretty clear threat.

[Wulfram]

Reika wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Jory did not attack him. He backed up against the wall. The fight started when Duncan went for his dagger.

Jory backed up to the wall with his sword drawn and waving it around. That's a pretty clear threat.

It's a clear threat to stay back and leave him alone.  Duncan chose instead to draw his dagger and approach.

[Persephone]

Reika wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Jory did not attack him. He backed up against the wall. The fight started when Duncan went for his dagger.

Jory backed up to the wall with his sword drawn and waving it around. That's a pretty clear threat.

He was afraid. Scared. He wasn't attacking. Duncan however DID attack. 

[Reika]

I certainly took his actions to be threatening. But we all have our own ways of seeing things.

[Persephone]

Reika wrote...

I certainly took his actions to be threatening. But we all have our own ways of seeing things.

Indeed.

[naledgeborn]

Jory drew his sword first. Duncan just had the stones to finish the fight before it started.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Duncan saved me trouble of gutting Jory.Afraid or not, Jory chose to be a Warden, practically threw himself at their order. He got to the point of no return, then backed out. Punk. It's [retty much stated in every origin that the Warden breaks ties with their past, family included. Jory would know this, he still volunteered, yet thought he was going back to his wife. It's his own fault, and Duncan did not kill Jory lightly.

[Obadiah]

Unfortunately, it was as Duncan had said: once they became recruits they were not volunteers. Duncan did execute Jory, who at that point was backup up against a wall and waving his sword in fear because he only wanted to escape.

I think at some point in recent history most armies executed deserters (maybe they still do) even if they were conscripts - same principle. Or maybe Jory's actions are similar to disobeying a direct order.

Was his execution by Duncan murder? Probably. It's debatable though...

EDITED.

Modifié par Obadiah, 26 septembre 2010 - 07:57 .

[Reika]

Quite frankly on any of my characters, none of them could stand Jory. He was as big of a gloryhound as Cailan and probably even more brainless. The fact he married a girl from Highever just made it that much worse for my HNF.

[Obadiah]

Reika wrote...

Quite frankly on any of my characters, none of them could stand Jory. He was as big of a gloryhound as Cailan and probably even more brainless. The fact he married a girl from Highever just made it that much worse for my HNF.

I liked the character. His comment about dwarf masons to my Dwarf Commoner annoyed me, and then when I called him on it, his response had me taking a second look at that chip on my shoulder that I was carrying. He deserved a better death - no one really deserves to be killed they way he was.

That scene sort of distilled the whole notion of duty and sacrifice of the Grey Wardens. The game engine doesn't really support the kind of nuanced expression to bring this across, but my impression was that executing Jory was not something Duncan wanted to do, but it was his duty, and he sacrificed a bit of his humanity for it.

I'm sure that's not much of a comfort to Jory, his widow, or their unborn child.

Modifié par Obadiah, 26 septembre 2010 - 08:08 .

[Reika]

Obadiah wrote...

I liked the character. His comment about dwarf masons to my Dwarf Commoner annoyed me, and then when I called him on it, his response had me taking a second look at that chip on my shoulder that I was carrying. He deserved a better death - no one really deserves to be killed they way he was.

That scene sort of distilled the whole notion of duty and sacrifice of the Grey Wardens. The game engine doesn't really support the kind of nuanced expression to bring this across, but my impression was that executing Jory was not something Duncan wanted to do, but it was his duty, and he sacrificed a bit of his humanity for it.

I'm sure that's not much of a comfort to Jory, his widow, or their unborn child.

Ah, see I've only played female characters so far, each one he's made a snide remark about women being allowed in the Grey Wardens. It's even worse when playing a female elf.

Then on my HNF he gets all flustered if I chose the option to mention that her father was the Teyrn and gets all grovely. Annoying either way.

[CalJones]

He practically craps himself if you're a mage.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

CalJones wrote...

He practically craps himself if you're a mage.

Yeah, lol. Serious class benefit. People hate you, but still crap their pants at the sight of you.

[Reika]

CalJones wrote...

He practically craps himself if you're a mage.

Hm, he didn't do that on my elf mage, he just kind of sneered. Maybe I'll try a mage sometime again.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

I've only played human mages, and both times, you could almost hear him staggering back nervously, wetting himself when he finds out you're a mage. It's the only origin I've played so far where Jory has no stupid assinine comments or questions about your character.

[Bahlgan]

My question is why in the world does Duncan refuse to explain his story to the mage if you play the mage origin. Does willpower substitute as an awesome replacement to strength or cunning when using coercion? I tried to persuade him, but he kept firm stating "It is not my place to discuss".

Ah, see I've only played female characters so far, each one he's made a snide remark about women being allowed in the Grey Wardens. It's even worse when playing a female elf.



Then on my HNF he gets all flustered if I chose the option to mention that her father was the Teyrn and gets all grovely. Annoying either way.

Hah women are truly mistreated, given the theme. My human noble male is given such praise by Jory because he is the son of former Teryn Bryce. Sorry to hear that your noble female is given much more annoyance by Jory. I feel bad, and in this case understand why many would want Jory to be killed... Sort of lol