252 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

Let's face it: Miranda's dossier is a bunch of contradictions. As you can expect, this has been discussed to death in the Miranda thread. But I'd like to have a broader picture of what people think about it. In particular concerning the following topics:

(1) What do you think about the dating service thing?
The most widespread assumption seems to be she did it to become pregnant. Arguments against that include
(a) It doesn't make sense to to that on your way to a suicide mission, which is why some people interpreted it as having taken place before the start of ME2, which for even others makes no sense because of the SR2 in her username, and while we're talking about the username a character like Miranda wouldn't choose a username including snippets of her real name and SR2 in the first place....
( If the sole objective is to get pregnant with a child from a healthy father, there are better methods to ensure this than a dating service.
This lead to the alternative assumption that she just wanted to have sex with minimized risk for her own health (thus the medical reports). Against which people have argued she wouldn't do that while having a romance with Shepard, to which was replied that the last instance of it was on Illium, likely before the romance even started.
The role of her medical report in the interpretation of her use of a dating service is also undecided. The fact that it appears after the dating service transcripts seems suggestive, but the evidence is not conclusive that they are connected.

(2) What do you think about the infertility issue?
This is even more riddled with inconsistencies and contradictions. I won't repeat it all here, for those who are interested, I've included the whole wall of text as section IV of the Miranda Lawson FAQ (scroll down to part IV).

(3) Do you think it's all a joke that shouldn't be taken seriously?
There is the opinion that it's all so over-the-top, silly and inconsistent that it can't be taken seriously. Arguments against that include that a serious problem like infertility isn't a joking matter, or that the inconsistencies are intentional to keep the matter open to different interpretations.

[maxulic]

I think people are reading too much into it. It is just to be taken lightly not seriously, each dossier has some funny facts and that's all the point of this, bringing a smile on your face not getting a headache.

[kraidy1117]

maxulic wrote...

I think people are reading too much into it. It is just to be taken lightly not seriously, each dossier has some funny facts and that's all the point of this, bringing a smile on your face not getting a headache.

How is adding sex chats to a character that is already over sexulised ment to be funny?

[maxulic]

kraidy1117 wrote...

maxulic wrote...

I think people are reading too much into it. It is just to be taken lightly not seriously, each dossier has some funny facts and that's all the point of this, bringing a smile on your face not getting a headache.

How is adding sex chats to a character that is already over sexulised ment to be funny?

Because you didn't find it funny doesn't mean it was not.

[aznsoisauce]

It's about as light-hearted as finding out about Garrus' mom.



[That's just my opinion, though...]

[AntiChri5]

1) She wanted sex. Its that simple. Miranda would choose the dna of anyone she had a child with very carefully.



2. Life can suck sometimes. I think its a great move to give "the perfect woman" a massive "imperfection". Especially that this imperfection is so central to being a woman.



3. Whether or not its a joke, its in the game, and the infertility thing is certainly NOt a joke.

[kraidy1117]

The infertile thing and the Oriana letter where good, the sex chats where not needed and again hurts her character even more. I lost track of how many people called Miri a shank after this DLC.

[AntiChri5]

kraidy1117 wrote...

 I lost track of how many people called Miri a shank after this DLC.

Those people are simply idiots.

The Illusive Man's dossier contained information about his sexual exploits, and that won him respect.

Miranda has always been my second least favourite squadmate in ME 2 (discounting Morinth), but there is nothing wrong with this.

Modifié par AntiChri5, 23 septembre 2010 - 12:38 .

[SurfaceBeneath]

There is no interpretation. It's as clear as daylight what the context of those "hook ups" are. Miranda wanted to have a baby. Complaints as to why she would use a dating service instead of artificially inseminate can be easily explained away by saying that she wanted to do so in a way that would allow her to retain as much anonymity and also allow her to have as much control of the situation as she could. Also, by having her try to do so via a dating service, we get more information about her from her transcriptions than we would if we just got a dossier about her visiting a sperm bank and it makes her mini-arc in those dossiers more dramatic and ultimately heartbreaking.



Anyone thinking that this "besmirches" her character are completely missing the point.

[Mox Ruuga]

I don't think it was a joke.

I think the dating was to fulfill her basic biological urges. A serial dater man wouldn't be looked down on, its interesting if people start looking down on Miranda for this. And I'm not implying that anyone specific on this thread or elsewhere is, BTW. Of course, it is possible that she tried to have a child as well, tho.

I think the infertility issue was meant to be both ironic and sad. She was meant to begin/continue a dynasty, but was "messed" around on the genetic level too much. Or something. She probably has been attempting to have a child, but has no need to know the father socially. Shades of Maude Lebowski.

The dossier potentially provides clues to her relationship with Jacob, and its inevitable end. Did she use him for sex, and he thought they were in a more serious relationship? I wonder if her demeanor towards him was always that sort of amused, aloof, and detached wryness? I think it became clear to him in the end, that any real romantic feelings were from his side only (and to a point, still are).

I like Miranda, BTW. I say this here, because what I wrote above can be potentially read as a diatribe against her. It's not meant to be.

[Kusy]

My interpretation of Miranda's LotSB dossier

[Ieldra]

AntiChri5 wrote...
2. Life can suck sometimes. I think its a great move to give "the perfect woman" a massive "imperfection". Especially that this imperfection is so central to being a woman.

While I would't like it at all, I'd be forced to agree with this, were there not the general level of life sciences in the ME universe. Between things like Okeer's research and her own origins, it's actually impossible to envision a kind of infertility that would make it impossible to have a child that's genetically hers and whoever she chooses to be the father. Though not being able to have it *naturally* could still be cause for some emotional trauma (as if she didn't have enough of that already - Bioware is cruel).
 
There's also the question Liara asks to a Shepard who's with Miranda, which makes no sense if Miranda cannot have children.

[brfritos]

kraidy1117 wrote...

The infertile thing and the Oriana letter where good, the sex chats where not needed and again hurts her character even more. I lost track of how many people called Miri a shank after this DLC.

You know, this kind of thing never cease to amaze me.

Yes, Miranda was trying to find a sex partner to reproduce in a chat.
Do this make her a more good or bad woman? More or not shallow?
Or even less intelligent?

My brother just completed 7 years of marriage with a woman, prior to 3 years of dating, wich lead to a total 10 years on relationship.
If you really think about it IS A LOT OF TIME for two people live togheter.
Guess how they found each other?
Yes, in a internet chat.

It's the 21st century of a globalized world, costumes and behaviours changed!
This kind of though that "Miranda is a skank" is the same of the church, where woman are only good for reproduction.

Ok, enough off-topic.

Contrary to many people, I think the chats ADDED something to the character.
For the conversations it seems that she really met some guys, but was unable to become pregnant.
Only then she did a fertility test and discovers she can't have children.
It was her dates who triggered the test, she didn't make it out of the blue.

And this could explain a lot of her coldness in conversations, because she wants to have a child, but are unable to.

Not regarding Miranda, but it's funny how things work.
Kelly is considered a s.lut by many because she wants to have a funny, casual date with Shepard, but Jack has the same type of behaviour and it isn't.

Modifié par brfritos, 23 septembre 2010 - 01:08 .

[AntiChri5]

Ieldra2 wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...
2. Life can suck sometimes. I think its a great move to give "the perfect woman" a massive "imperfection". Especially that this imperfection is so central to being a woman.

While I would't like it at all, I'd be forced to agree with this, were there not the general level of life sciences in the ME universe. Between things like Okeer's research and her own origins, it's actually impossible to envision a kind of infertility that would make it impossible to have a child that's genetically hers and whoever she chooses to be the father. Though not being able to have it *naturally* could still be cause for some emotional trauma (as if she didn't have enough of that already - Bioware is cruel).
 
There's also the question Liara asks to a Shepard who's with Miranda, which makes no sense if Miranda cannot have children.

What does Liara ask about Miranda?

And remember what Samara said when asked about predicting or eliminating the Ardat yakshi gene? "We are an advanced species but we dont have magic". I think we see too much of the advancements made and too little of the things still a problem, if the asari are still having trouble with genetics, its plausible we are too.

[008Zulu]

AntiChri5 wrote...

She wanted sex. Its that simple. Miranda would choose the dna of anyone she had a child with very carefully.

If sex were all she were after, then there are all manner of brothels on the Citadel, Omega or Illium she could go to.

If it were procreation then why not just use IVF via a doner bank? As for fertility, creating a retrovirus to allow her to become pregnant would be easy enough for someone who spearheaded the Lazarus project.

[Ieldra]

AntiChri5 wrote...
What does Liara ask about Miranda?

"What do you fight for? The future of humanity, as evidenced by the perfect Ms. Lawson?"

As for Samara's daughters, she said the problem can't be corrected once it manifests in puberty. Apparently, the Ardat-Yakshi gene is rare enough that the asari don't routinely test for it.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 23 septembre 2010 - 01:28 .

[Anacronian Stryx]

008Zulu wrote...

If it were procreation then why not just use IVF via a doner bank? As for fertility, creating a retrovirus to allow her to become pregnant would be easy enough for someone who spearheaded the Lazarus project.

Yes because we can treat most cases of something as huge as Cancer these days we can easy find a treatment for something as easy as the common cold ..medicine works that way!

[Kusy]

You guys are not the empathic type.



She was most likely looking for a potential father, yes I think it was procreation reasons. And the anwser to why she wouldn't go with a sperm donor bank, invitro or anyother genetic way was exacly what her father did... it's that simple, anyone who triggered at least one dialogue with Miranda knows that the last thing she would want is to become like her father, to create a legacy instead of a child. If she was looking simply for sex, she wouldn't care too much about previous diseeses and the sexfriend messages would likely continue after she recived the diagnosis... they stoped, since she was no longer able to reach a goal, stopped the action.

[Whatever42]

Considering the way she herself was created, she might want to conceive and reproduce naturally, as opposed to artifical means.



The doctor could have mention adoption because Miranda alread expressed strong feelings against artifical means.

[Anacronian Stryx]

Mr.Kusy wrote...

You guys are not the empathic type.

She was most likely looking for a potential father, yes I think it was procreation reasons. And the anwser to why she wouldn't go with a sperm donor bank, invitro or anyother genetic way was exacly what her father did... it's that simple, anyone who triggered at least one dialogue with Miranda knows that the last thing she would want is to become like her father, to create a legacy instead of a child. If she was looking simply for sex, she wouldn't care too much about previous diseeses and the sexfriend messages would likely continue after she recived the diagnosis... they stoped, since she was no longer able to reach a goal, stopped the action.

And there it is..a simple explanation.

[Mondo47]

I've talked to a few fellow forumites about this one, and frankly I juest read it more or less the same way the OP does. The dating site logs are a convenient way for a very businesslike, career-minded and time-strapped woman to find healthy partners for casual sex. It's not really logical for her to be trying to get pregnant when she devotes all her time to her work for Cerberus. Finding potential partners within Cerberus probably would compromise her position of authority, and potentially compromise her personal security (based on Jacob's statements about the general untrustworthy nature of the average Cerberus agent).

There's absolutely nothing wrong with a woman knowing herself and her desires well enough to know that she just needs to let off some steam without the hangups, complications and time involved in a relationship, though we still seem to have some societal baggage attached to the concept of a woman being forthright enough to choose sex without a relationship. Some people obviously don't like the idea of sex without attendant romance... I don't see the problem myself - it's the 21st century, can't women be in command of their sexual destiny without shoving old moralities onto it that haven't been applied to men in broad society for decades if not centuries? But hey, that's just me - what does this woman know about her sexual identity that society can't dictate to her? <_<

As for the infertility; it's the future, I'd be surprised if there couldn't be some work-around... be it surogacy, cloned organs, fleshing child from glass-mother, whatever. It certainly made me feel a little sympathy for the character though; infertility is a huge emotional issue for many women, and it allowed me to develop a little more empathy for a character I really am not too keen on most of the time.

I think that while the responses on the dating site are there to satirise the whole pitfalls-of-internet-dating thing, the information given to us gives a much-needed new side to Miranda; one that is a woman with feelings, desires and urges after all, as opposed to an aloof, driven, somewhat arrogant genius.

[AntiChri5]

Mondo47 wrote...

I think that while the responses on the dating site are there to satirise the whole pitfalls-of-internet-dating thing, the information given to us gives a much-needed new side to Miranda; one that is a woman with feelings, desires and urges after all, as opposed to an aloof, driven, somewhat arrogant genius.

Thats the side of Miranda i have been missing, one of the main reasons i disliked her so much.

[smudboy]

I think Miranda should be characterized more as an arrogant, opinionated genius. Mordin is one, and he's fantastic. The only thing she's showed is she's good at killing people with a gun at point blank range, and she wants somewhere and someone to connect with. The Miranda/Jack similarities were so abundantly obvious.

In that sense, Miranda's genius could be challenged as the new genius comes on board (Mordin), and her loyalty and feelings could've been challenged by the other Cerberus operative (Jacob) and Shepard. But then again, I think Miranda and Jack are the same character, and Jacob and Zaeed should've been combined.

[PsyrenY]

Mr.Kusy wrote...

My interpretation of Miranda's LotSB dossier

Pretty much this

[Ieldra]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Mondo47 wrote...

I think that while the responses on the dating site are there to satirise the whole pitfalls-of-internet-dating thing, the information given to us gives a much-needed new side to Miranda; one that is a woman with feelings, desires and urges after all, as opposed to an aloof, driven, somewhat arrogant genius.

Thats the side of Miranda i have been missing, one of the main reasons i disliked her so much.

However the whole issue turns out - and I'd certainly hate Bioware if they made her condition irreversible - it has garnered her some sympathy and indeed shown a different side of Miranda that previously was only obvious to those who romanced her.