252 réponses à ce sujet

[Siansonea]

Ieldra2 wrote...I can only say I'm ready to use pitchfork, tar and feathers on the one who cooked up the infertility thing. As if it was not enough to push Liara as the canonical LI for Shepard, no, they had to give a big problem to another other LI and, as if that wasn't enough, insult her with their horrible attempt at humour. Thank you very much. I'm almost tempted to trash the one game where I romanced Liara to spite them.

That'll show them!!! They'll be crying in their beer tonight!!!

Really?

[evengill]

I don't really agree that the dossier was insulting to Miranda. Her infertility is a plausible result of her being overly genetically manipulated, the terse conversations in her dealings with finding possible partners (and I still think she did this to find somebody to father a child) reveals something about her character (see 2 posts above as to what;) )... I do not think it is meant to be primarily "humorous" even though the dossiers for other characters are...

[Eldareus]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I very much resent that they made her infertile. The other stuff is OK in content, but insulting in style. I resent that as well. I can only repeat: if that's Bioware's idea of humour, they can keep it.


I can only say I'm ready to use pitchfork, tar and feathers on the one who cooked up the infertility thing. As if it was not enough to push Liara as the canonical LI for Shepard, no, they had to give a big problem to another other LI and, as if that wasn't enough, insult her with their horrible attempt at humour. Thank you very much. I'm almost tempted to trash the one game where I romanced Liara to spite them.

I really do not see how you can interpret Miranda's infertilty as Bioware's attempt at humor. The only humor with her dossier was how abruptly she disconnected on some male stereotypes and the dating service itself. The whole infertility adds a dimension of humilty to Miranda's character that perhaps she is not as gentically perfect as she wants to believe. 

Modifié par Eldareus, 24 septembre 2010 - 09:08 .

[OldMan91]

I can only say I'm ready to use pitchfork, tar and feathers on the one who cooked up the infertility thing. As if it was not enough to push Liara as the canonical LI for Shepard, no, they had to give a big problem to another other LI and, as if that wasn't enough, insult her with their horrible attempt at humour. Thank you very much. I'm almost tempted to trash the one game where I romanced Liara to spite them.

How have Bioware made Liara a canonical love interest? They haven't. If you didn't romance her in ME1, then she won't appear to be romanced in ME2. So no, it's not canonical.



And I don't see anything wrong with giving a flaw to a supposedly genetically perfect human being. Infertility is something that many women and men suffer in real life unfortunately. It's entirely plausible for Miranda to be infertile. In fact, I respect her more now knowing this than before. She's gone through a great deal of trials and she still manages to appear professional and capable.

[Ieldra]

OldMan91 wrote...
And I don't see anything wrong with giving a flaw to a supposedly genetically perfect human being.

While I try to avoid the term "genetically perfect" - there is no such thing - I very much appreciated that Miranda was an improved and fully functional human. Genetically, she still may be since the report says they don't know if her condition is genetic.. I don't like that Bioware threw a kink in her physical "perfection". Her mental flaws should've been enough to make her real as a character. Really, I don't know why her mental flaws make people dislike her  but a physical flaw garners sympathy. Perhaps it's because her past, being the cause for her problems, remains so vague. 

In fact, I respect her more now knowing this than before. She's gone through a great deal of trials and she still manages to appear professional and capable.

That was true even before the LotSB dossier. She didn't need additional problems.

BTW:
The theory that her father made her infertile on purpose is implausible: the report says "progressive damage renders her infertile", which means that if she'd tried to have a child say, ten years ago, it would have worked.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 25 septembre 2010 - 07:08 .

[Arijharn]

 While it's true that the iPartner excerpts and the Medical report things may not be linked, I would say that they are because it's obvious that's how they expect you to think. Sure, it may not be rational to seek to have a baby during (or just before) a suicide mission, but what person makes rational decisions 100% of the time?

[Nightwriter]

How do you know it's what they expect you to think? I'd be comforted by the knowledge that that's what they expect me to think. But I can't expect that's what they expect me to expect.

[Arijharn]

Just by it's placement really... I just treat it by association by where it is in relation to everything else.

[Nightwriter]

There are quite a few dossiers where unrelated information is thrown in side-by-side. How do we know we are expected to think these are related?

[Arijharn]

Nightwriter wrote...

There are quite a few dossiers where unrelated information is thrown in side-by-side. How do we know we are expected to think these are related?

True, but you of course know that sex can cause pregnancies, I can't remember if there's any other situations as close to each other than this in terms of cause and effect though.

The best way I can describe it is like it's a paragraph. A proper paragraph starts off with a statement with successive sentences all backing up the first sentence. A paragraph is therefore something that is related to its topic sentence. 

I could be completely wrong of course, but I feel that with the associations between topic types I must therefore consider it while circumstancial , not implausible.

[Ieldra]

@Arijharn:
I admit that the iPartners transcript and and the medical report are placed in a way that the majority of players, who don't think as much about the characters and the world as we do on the forums, will probably consider them connected and not think about it any further. It might be that it's made that way on purpose.

On the other hand, sometimes things are left vague on purpose. I think the medical report saying they don't know if her condition was genetic belongs to that category - it basically shouts at us we are supposed to insert the interpretation we favor. So it's not impossible that the placement of the medical report intentionally suggests a connection but does not prove one.

Or maybe I'm giving Bioware too much credit for anticipating the reception of the dossier by players.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 25 septembre 2010 - 09:42 .

[Tootles FTW]

Ieldra2 wrote...I can only say I'm ready to use pitchfork, tar and feathers on the one who cooked up the infertility thing. As if it was not enough to push Liara as the canonical LI for Shepard, no, they had to give a big problem to another other LI and, as if that wasn't enough, insult her with their horrible attempt at humour. Thank you very much. I'm almost tempted to trash the one game where I romanced Liara to spite them.

Wow, if only I had your problems...  Not only can my FemShep not have children with my love interest of choice (Garrus) but sex with him could be painful (chafing) and deadly (allergic reactions).  Thane is also a no-go in the children department, causes hallucinations from prolonged skin-to-skin contact, and he's dying (I won't even mention the dead wife & angsty son baggage).  Kaidan can get Virmire'd and acts like an **** on Horizon.  And then there's Jacob. 

If Liara is the "canonical LI" then that means my FemShep is forced into pseudo-lesbianism.

Honestly, I viewed the internet dating e-mails as being very humorous; they showcased how badly her social skills are, despite her being the "perfect woman" she has no concept of developing relationships with men.  If I were to ever roll a MaleShep I would find this to be quite charming if I ever romanced her - you happen to be the first one to break that barrier. 

The infertility thing is a complete non-issue to me and I could care less if she could bear my MaleShep's children.  I didn't care with Garrus, I didn't care with Thane, I didn't care with Alistair (Grey Warden + Grey Warden = no babies) - I pursued the romances with them for them, not for the promise of future babies.  I like Miranda better for her issues, and the apparent struggle she has with them.

[Arijharn]

It's unlikely that two Grey Warden's can have children, but not totally impossible.

[Ieldra]

Tootles FTW wrote...
The infertility thing is a complete non-issue to me and I could care less if she could bear my MaleShep's children.

I never wanted an epilogue that included Miranda and Shepard having children, but I wanted to be able to imagine that they might have some years later. Infertility or not, Miranda and Shepard remain my OTP and Miranda my favorite character, but I want her to be (as of now, re-established as) a fully functional woman because for me, she is a desperately-needed counterexample for all the horrible results of biotechnology shown elsewhere in the ME universe. There's altogether too much of the "Science is Bad" trope in the ME universe, and I get very, very annoyed at every additional item that adds to it, the more so if it affects my favorite character.  

[Tootles FTW]

I see where you're coming from, Ieldra, but I also think - however sad the infertility e-mail was - it didn't necessarily slam the door shut on future possibilities.  Also, maybe I don't (personally) care as much because I don't expect a scrolling text screen at the end of the game detailing all of your future accomplishments (such as "And then they made a million billion babies!"). 

Even if they never address the infertility issue again, I imagine that the ending of ME3 will leave it open to interpretation for however you want your story to ideally end.

Your Miranda goes on to get pregnant?  Sure, great!  Another Miranda doesn't?  Sure, great.  At least I'm hoping that Bioware leaves enough leeway like this to allow for everyone's desired endings with their respective LIs. 

[Aedan1992]

The most imported thing i want is that miri is happy. With or without children, my shepard don't really care about that. If she want's children he will do everything he can to give here that. If she doesn't want children he accept that. The only thing i want for miri is that she feels herself a real women. And that she accept that her father has created her.

[Icinix]

Tootles FTW wrote...
(snip)
Even if they never address the infertility issue again, I imagine that the ending of ME3 will leave it open to interpretation for however you want your story to ideally end.

(snip)
 

...I don't.  I play hundreds of hours for closure and a definitive ending....maybe have a press 'f' to go to the definitive ending or you can just escape out and have all the interpretation you want.

If I want to have babies with Miranda, I want to see that ending dammit!

[Tootles FTW]

What I mean by a decided ending is one that details everything following the events of ME3 - much like DA:O's much b!tched about text squares: "And then Tali went on to become Captain of the Qwib Qwib, and after ten years she did this, and then Garrus did that and died in his sleep at the age of 87, and then Shepard danced a jig at his daughter's wedding...", that kind of thing.

A brief summary is great, but a broad overview of the rest of Shepard's life is a bit sketchy when it comes to how people choose to RP. Children, and the having of them, I consider something in the somewhat distant future and thus not really a subject to be mentioned in a post-game wrap-up.

[Edit to add:] An easy way to solve everyone's problem, though, is if they have a dialogue option with your LI where they ask you what you hope for in the future - much like in LotSB with Liara.  If you choose the "I wantz teh babies, Miranda" option then a mention in the epilogue would be perfect.

Modifié par Tootles FTW, 25 septembre 2010 - 11:05 .

[Icinix]

Tootles FTW wrote...

What I mean by a decided ending is one that details everything following the events of ME3 - much like DA:O's much b!tched about text squares: "And then Tali went on to become Captain of the Qwib Qwib, and after ten years she did this, and then Garrus did that and died in his sleep at the age of 87, and then Shepard danced a jig at his daughter's wedding...", that kind of thing.

A brief summary is great, but a broad overview of the rest of Shepard's life is a bit sketchy when it comes to how people choose to RP. Children, and the having of them, I consider something in the somewhat distant future and thus not really a subject to be mentioned in a post-game wrap-up.

[Edit to add:] An easy way to solve everyone's problem, though, is if they have a dialogue option with your LI where they ask you what you hope for in the future - much like in LotSB with Liara.  If you choose the "I wantz teh babies, Miranda" option then a mention in the epilogue would be perfect.

Oh absoloutely.  I thought you meant the 'and they wandered off into the sunset...' straight after the end game mission.  That would leave me doing  at the screen then writing the beginning of a letter starting 'Dear BioWare...'  No not really.  Well, except for the first part.

[GodWood]

Arijharn wrote...
It's unlikely that two Grey Warden's can have children, but not totally impossible.

David Gaider confirmed it is impossible despite Alistair's wording.

[Ieldra]

Icinix wrote...
I thought you meant the 'and they wandered off into the sunset...' straight after the end game mission.

Actually, I wouldn't mind something like that as one of several possible endings, though I'd prefer a more elaborate version of "going off into the sunset".
What I care about, apart from Miranda's happiness which goes without saying, is her impact on the big picture. The possible future I don't want Bioware to shut off is the one hinted at in Liara's question: "What do you fight for? The future of humanity, as evidenced by the perfect Ms. Lawson?" It's all symbolic rather than real, of course, but that difference doesn't matter.

[Nethershadow]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Let's face it: Miranda's dossier is a bunch of contradictions. As you can expect, this has been discussed to death in the Miranda thread. But I'd like to have a broader picture of what people think about it. In particular concerning the following topics:

(1) What do you think about the dating service thing?
The most widespread assumption seems to be she did it to become pregnant. Arguments against that include
(a) It doesn't make sense to to that on your way to a suicide mission, which is why some people interpreted it as having taken place before the start of ME2, which for even others makes no sense because of the SR2 in her username, and while we're talking about the username a character like Miranda wouldn't choose a username including snippets of her real name and SR2 in the first place....
( If the sole objective is to get pregnant with a child from a healthy father, there are better methods to ensure this than a dating service.
This lead to the alternative assumption that she just wanted to have sex with minimized risk for her own health (thus the medical reports). Against which people have argued she wouldn't do that while having a romance with Shepard, to which was replied that the last instance of it was on Illium, likely before the romance even started.
The role of her medical report in the interpretation of her use of a dating service is also undecided. The fact that it appears after the dating service transcripts seems suggestive, but the evidence is not conclusive that they are connected.

(2) What do you think about the infertility issue?
This is even more riddled with inconsistencies and contradictions. I won't repeat it all here, for those who are interested, I've included the whole wall of text as section IV of the Miranda Lawson FAQ (scroll down to part IV).

(3) Do you think it's all a joke that shouldn't be taken seriously?
There is the opinion that it's all so over-the-top, silly and inconsistent that it can't be taken seriously. Arguments against that include that a serious problem like infertility isn't a joking matter, or that the inconsistencies are intentional to keep the matter open to different interpretations.

My view is that she wants to have a child, and considering her own childhood and how she hates her father, protected and guided her sister on her own, it makes perfect sense to me that she has issues about the father of the child, and she wants to be the person solely in charge of her child.

Why doesn't it make sense that something you value highly like having a child wouldn't be attempted even in the face of suicide mission? Just knowing that she was able to get pregnant before her possible end may bring peace of mind to her. There could be other reasons, but it is what it is.

We aren't robots, and emotions and desires twist what should be logical. She is a human, so trying to explain all her actions with pure logic in hindsight of the events isn't a good way to justify her actions imo.

Not trying to be negative, but to me sounds like some are trying to find ways to justify what they are reading there so it won't hurt their game relationships.

Miranda is my second fave character after Liara, and it feels like those dossiers only threw the monkey wrench in hers romantically. Damn them and their monkey wrenches, and that jacob guy too.

[Ieldra]

Nethershadow wrote...
Miranda is my second fave character after Liara, and it feels like those dossiers only threw the monkey wrench in hers romantically. Damn them and their monkey wrenches, and that jacob guy too.

Yes, it's like she - and her fans with her - got singled out for bad treatment by the Bioware people. That's what drives me up the wall.

[Jaron Oberyn]

Sounds to me like this thread is full of Miranda fans in denial about her deviancy. What's even more hilarious is that according to the dossier, when you were on illium she was getting together with another guy.



At the end of the day though, it's a video game character. So whats the point of this thread?



-Polite