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[Major Truth]

 
Legion Loyalty
Mission
http://social.biowar...75/polls/11260/
 
The Geth and the
Quarians
http://social.biowar...75/polls/11262/
 
 
I've set up two
polls (above) to see what people think of the Heretics situation and the Geth in
general
 
Normally throughout
Mass Effect when your given two choices, one is considered a paragon choice and
the other is considered a renegade choice. I believe Legions loyalty mission is
the exception to this rule.
 
When given the
choice of either rewriting or destroying the heretics I believe anything other
then destroying them is completely irresponsible. Think about it, for the
entirety of ME1 and the majority of ME2, Shepard and his crew have been battling
the Geth, watching them kill organics whenever possible. Then all of a sudden
one drone comes along, claims that there are now two types of Geth (Regular Geth
and Heretics), and offers to help against the Reapers and the
Heretics.
 
I'm not saying its
not true but is that not a massive leap of faith on Shepards behalf to not
destroy them. I think given the circumstances a safety first option and blowing
them to high heaven is the only option. Legion doesn't even mind if you do
that  
 
Is it just me or
does anyone else see an oversized toaster with a gun when talking to Legion
?
 
I mean I just don't
get it, how is a machine a sapient being and why are the Quariens treated the
way they are for attempting to correct a problem they once created. They are
machines, without feelings or emotions. If my xbox started asking me what the
reasons for its being were, I'd unplug it as well.
 
My opinion on the
Geth is simple, they are machines first and they should not occupying the
Quarian home world. My Shepard will help Tali or anyone else remove them and
give the Quarians back their home world. By all means they can colanise a planet
that is not inhabitated, or live in Space but they should be forced to vacate
the Quarian home world.

[Xilizhra]

There's no reason to believe the geth aren't sapient, even if their mental processes work differently. They're certainly capable of higher thought, and Legion occasionally have flashes of emotion, which sort of seeps out in their word choices sometimes (such as their confusion and probable remorse when referring to the heretic spy systems in the true geth networks).

[Major Truth]

Xilizhra wrote...

There's no reason to believe the geth aren't sapient, even if their mental processes work differently. They're certainly capable of higher thought, and Legion occasionally have flashes of emotion, which sort of seeps out in their word choices sometimes (such as their confusion and probable remorse when referring to the heretic spy systems in the true geth networks).

If the Geth kicked humans off earth would you be content for humanity to become Galactic Gypseys ? - I wouldntt

[PsyrenY]

Other sources of emotion:

Legion is damaged on Eden Prime, but does not repair the hole until he finds Shepard's armor on Achera much later.

Legion bought the charity copy of the Eden Prime video game (the proceeds go towards rebuilding the colony.) He has yet to play it.

[Major Truth]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Other sources of emotion:
Legion is damaged on Eden Prime, but does not repair the hole until he finds Shepard's armor on Achera much later.
Legion bought the charity copy of the Eden Prime video game (the proceeds go towards rebuilding the colony.) He has yet to play it.

There could be completely logical reasons for both.

He's a robot

[Images]

Major Truth wrote...

If the Geth kicked humans off earth would you be content for humanity to become Galactic Gypseys ?

Hell yeah! Space caravans! With FTL donkeys pulling them!

[PsyrenY]

Major Truth wrote...

There could be completely logical reasons for both.

They are both illogical choices, which is exactly why they betray emotion.

[Xilizhra]

Major Truth wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

There's no reason to believe the geth aren't sapient, even if their mental processes work differently. They're certainly capable of higher thought, and Legion occasionally have flashes of emotion, which sort of seeps out in their word choices sometimes (such as their confusion and probable remorse when referring to the heretic spy systems in the true geth networks).

If the Geth kicked humans off earth would you be content for humanity to become Galactic Gypseys ? - I wouldntt

For one thing, this is entirely emotional reasoning and has nothing to do with anything. For another, I, like Koris, wouldn't blame the geth for a war we started. What the quarians should have done is release the geth and tried some new labor-saving devices, preferably ones that couldn't mutate into sapient beings.

[Major Truth]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Major Truth wrote...

There could be completely logical reasons for both.

They are both illogical choices, which is exactly why they betray emotion.

You cannot say they are illogical without knowing his motives.

Sending Jacob through the vents would appear to be an illogical choice by Shepard, but not if he wants to kill him

Also he could be logically making illogical choices in order to fool people

[Major Truth]

Xilizhra wrote...

For one thing, this is entirely emotional reasoning and has nothing to do with anything.

No its actually a very straight forward question. If History shows us nothing its that humanity are territorial beings. Why would Quarians be any different[

Xilizhra wrote...
 What the quarians should have done is release the geth and tried some new labor-saving devices, preferably ones that couldn't mutate into sapient beings.

How would that work exactly. Where are they releasing them too ? The Quariens believed the majority of the Geth were not Sapient at the time the war started

Modifié par Major Truth, 23 septembre 2010 - 03:38 .

[PsyrenY]

Major Truth wrote...
You cannot say they are illogical without knowing his motives.

You can have Shepard question him about the use of his N7 armor for repairs, and why he waited that long/used that particular item. Legion evasively replies "no data available" when backed into a corner.

Major Truth wrote...
Sending Jacob through the vents would appear to be an illogical choice by Shepard, but not if he wants to kill him.

That is metagaming. Even if Shepard knew that Jacob was not the best choice for the job and sent him anyway, he would have no way of knowing for sure that Jacob would die or that he would be the only casualty.

Major Truth wrote...
Also he could be logically making illogical choices in order to fool people.

...Wow. Just, wow.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 23 septembre 2010 - 03:40 .

[Xilizhra]

No its actually a very straight forward question. If History shows us nothing its that humanity are territorial beings. Why would Quarians be any different

Oh, they might well be. It doesn't make them right.

How would that work exactly. Where are they releasing them too ? The Quariens believed the majority of the Geth were not Sapient at the time the war started

Waited a bit longer until the geth were truly sapient, or so they thought, then release them, perhaps?

[Major Truth]

[quote]Optimystic_X wrote...
You can have Shepard question him about the use of his N7 armor for repairs, and why he waited that long/used that particular item. Legion evasively replies "no data available" when backed into a corner.
[/quote]

Yes, so presumably your arguing that it was an emotive response as he performed illogically. And then through embarassment responded with no data available?

What I am saying is that he could have responded in that manner to give the impression he was responding emotively. If his intention was to portray himself as pocessing emotion then his response was contrived and essentially logical

[quote]Optimystic_X wrote...
That is metagaming. Even if Shepard knew that Jacob was not the best choice for the job and sent him anyway, he would have no way of knowing for sure that Jacob would die or that he would be the only casualty.[/quote]

Ok let me rephrase if I send Jacob through the vents on my 6th playthrough  and he dies, that would appear an illogical choice. If I wanted to kill him, its logical

[quote]Major Truth wrote...
Also he could be logically making illogical choices in order to fool people.
[/quote]

...Wow. Just, wow.

[/quote]

[Major Truth]

Flies_by_Handles wrote...

 Glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks this way. Seems that a pure paragon Shepard is like an overly idealistic zoo keeper who unlocks all the pens in a zoo becuase he pitys the animals, no matter how dangerous. That might not be the best example but I prefer a more realistic approach to the Legion loyalty mission. Shepard has already taken a giant leap of faith accepting Legion onto the Normandy and even giving it access to the ship's systems. Rewriting heretic geth is too big a step to make for a character you only bet a short while ago.

 I do see the Geth as sapient and I also see them as a possible threat. At this point in time however, it's counterproductive to have the Quarians start a war that might unwinnable.

Exactly - Its just too big a risk to take. If Shepard is wrong how many lives will be lost

In ME1 he lost Jenkins on Eden Prime, Ashley lost her whole unit. I'd like to see Shepard facing them and their families with his "Its nice to be nice" explanation if it all goes wrong

[Xilizhra]

In ME1 he lost Jenkins on Eden Prime, Ashley lost her whole unit. I'd like to see Shepard facing them and their families with his "Its nice to be nice" explanation if it all goes wrong

This... is a complete non sequitur.

[_purifico_]

Major Truth wrote...

 
Is it just me or does anyone else see an oversized toaster with a gun when talking to Legion
?
 

It is just you.

[Anacronian Stryx]

Major Truth wrote...

How would that work exactly. Where are they releasing them too ? The Quariens believed the majority of the Geth were not Sapient at the time the war started

Ask them what they want,  Pure and simple - instead of starting a war over what is essential neophobia ; A war you know will cost lives no matter what, In hindsight it's pretty near imposible to defend actions made in panic, Even Tali is struggeling with it.

And hey the irony is that if they have asked the Geth what they want they would have found out that they don't want the home world at all, They don't need it. As Legion tells

[Whatever42]

Major Truth wrote...
I'm not saying its
not true but is that not a massive leap of faith on Shepards behalf to not
destroy them. I think given the circumstances a safety first option and blowing
them to high heaven is the only option. Legion doesn't even mind if you do
that  
 

I think your justification is out to lunch but I agree with your conclusion for other reasons. These are machines, sapient or not. When the heretics rejoin the Geth they will bring new logic, new ideas, new ways of thinking. These will affect the Geth and it will change the balances of debate within the Geth.

That is very uncertain and very dangerous. We know the Geth are potential allies against the Reapers. However, re-integrating the heretics risks that tremendously. It is a HUGE risk to take.

[Panthro90]

Ok, I have thought long and hard about this and here is my opinion on the Quarian – Geth debate.



First, I came to the conclusion that just because something is self aware does not automatically grant it the right to be self determinant or have free will. Examples of this, the droids from Star Wars, Asimov’s 3 laws robots, Angels, for those who believe, do not have free will.



So on the day of the Morning War, the Quarians were well within their rights to shutdown the Geth. At this point the Geth had become self aware, but they were still the constructs of the Quarians and had no right to be self determinant.



BUT, since the Quarians failed to program the Geth properly, the Geth were well within their programming to protect themselves.



So the Quarians have no one to blame but themselves for the loss of their home world.



Fast-forward 300 years. Given the ability of machines to gather and process information, I believe that the Geth have evolved at a rate much faster than that of an organic, and as a result, should now be considered sentient and as such have earned the right to be self determinant.



As to whether to rewrite or destroy? I always destroy. As an IT person I know you can never trust an infected system. As far as I’m concerned the Heretics are infected systems. Rewriting them and hoping they don’t revert back and infect the rest of the Geth is too much of a risk. So how do I justify wiping out an entire sentient race? Simple, there are no individual Heretics. They are all part of one collective, and as such each AND EVERY one can be considered an enemy combatant. There are no innocent Heretic civilians. They collectively choose, using their right to be self determinant, to join Saren and the Reapers, so they collectively choose be in the line of fire.

[Eldareus]

The player spent all of ME1 and a portion of ME2 combating the Geth, a known threat to all organic life in the galaxy, only to have to rethink the Geth as a non hostile race with the introduction of Legion, the friendly Geth. If this were a real world situation and not a work of fiction there is no way I would accept Legion at face value. Not without a substanstial amount of proof to back up Legion claims. I doubt the ME writers have any malice intentions planned for Legion and the other non-heretic Geth. So my Shepard accepts Legions words as valid attempt to make peace with organic lifeforms. 

Modifié par Eldareus, 23 septembre 2010 - 04:34 .

[betd2]

I'll just throw in my 2 cents. according to Legion all the geth Shepard and Co killed in ME1 where Reaper worshipers. the "true" Geth have been sitting behind the veil working on a body that all Geth runtimes could occupy. as far as I've seen these Geth just want to be left alone. They know that galactic society as it is now will not treat them as anything other then pests to be crushed. As for the choice in Legion's loyalty mission. I destroy them because, rewriting them to me seemed like the AI equivalent of brainwashing them. and I go paragon all the way. that and to completely avenge Jenkins.

[Xilizhra]

If you go Paragon all the way, you should have rewritten them.

[betd2]

Xilizhra wrote...

If you go Paragon all the way, you should have rewritten them.

point taken but I still stand that killing your enimies is more ethical then brainwashing them into good guys...

...wait, that doesn't sound right, well it made sense to me last night while I was drunk so it must be true!

[Count Viceroy]

I rewrite the geth just so I'll have more fodder to throw at the reapers. Destroying them is a waste of resources.Which Is also why I keep on the good side of legion and the quarians.

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 23 septembre 2010 - 05:35 .