132 réponses à ce sujet

[Moiaussi]

Major Truth wrote...

You cannot say they are illogical without knowing his motives.

Sending Jacob through the vents would appear to be an illogical choice by Shepard, but not if he wants to kill him

Also he could be logically making illogical choices in order to fool people

The way it is presented, if whoever goes in the shaft cannot carry out their mission, they won't be able to get past a key door, and the mission would be compromised, so the only reason to deliberately make a bad choice would be to deliberately sabotage the mission.

Shepard could choose Jacob out of misplaced trust or distrust of the other choices, but those would be illogical.

[Lvl20DM]

The reason we know that Legion isn't lying is due to narrative convention. Part of that character's purpose is to give insight into the Geth. We are never led to believe that he's unreliable.



I think Legion's loyalty mission shouldn't be framed as paragon vs. renegade. Both choices have good and bad aspects.

[Lebrine]

why does the thought of rewritten heretics bringing new ideas to the geth have to be bad ones?

After all the ideas they could bring may make the geth come out of the veil and they could end up being a huge asset to the galaxy. Who knoews, maybe they make peace with the quarians and agree to leave the home world in exchange for the assistance of the flotilla in making their sphere. I for one don't think the geth would actually turn out to be nasty, as they only acted with self defense against the quarians and the heretics were just being used by Sovereign.

[Pedrak]

Since both choices given were unethical, I chose the safest one (destroy).

Also, personally I'd rather be killed than brainwashed into someone whose main purposes in life are the opposite of the ones I have now - a process which would effectively "kill" my old self, even without destroying my physical body - so I gave the Geth the courtesy of using the same criteria for them.

Modifié par Pedrak, 23 septembre 2010 - 07:03 .

[Whatever42]

Lebrine wrote...

why does the thought of rewritten heretics bringing new ideas to the geth have to be bad ones?
After all the ideas they could bring may make the geth come out of the veil and they could end up being a huge asset to the galaxy. Who knoews, maybe they make peace with the quarians and agree to leave the home world in exchange for the assistance of the flotilla in making their sphere. I for one don't think the geth would actually turn out to be nasty, as they only acted with self defense against the quarians and the heretics were just being used by Sovereign.

Current Geth ideas as voiced by Legion could allow that. But we know the current heretic path has been far more violent. However, you are right. It could be good. We have no clue to the effect of their ideas on the Geth.

But, again, is it worth the risk? The Geth look like a possible ally now. Why the roll the dice on the vague possibility that something good might come out of it?

[Nightwriter]

What's your issue? That you think the paragon/renegade classifications of the decision are whack, or that you think the geth are just machines?

Seems like two different issues.

[Lebrine]

well... if you played as a good jedi in Kotor, then brainwashing the bad guy isnt a bad thing...

if you played as a sith then brainwashing the bad guy changes nothing..

[D.Sharrah]

Forgive me if this has been already said, I did not take the time to read all the posts - once this thought came into my head.



For me personally, this is just one of the many reasons that I love Mass Effect. It has such polarizing choices within the game. I think that how you handle each of these situations is exactly what Bioware had in mind when they say (over and over again) that each person playing the game will have a unique expierence.



I also find it quite ironic that all of the actions that Saren took in ME 1, are flipped on their heads and essentially re-presented as "paragon" choices for Shepard to make. I am specifically referring to these items:



Saving the Rachni (creating an ally)

Curing the Genophage (creating Krogan allies that are strong)

Rewriting the Heretics (creating a strong Geth ally)



Each of these allies were also the allies that Saren chose. Coincidence, I think not. I do not think that it is coincidence that each of these races are responsible for the most recent galatic wars, either. And we know from the game story, that at least two of these races were influenced by the Reapers (the Rachni - if you believe what the Queen says; and the Geth - if you believe what Legions says). Is it all a coincidence that the three most dominant figures in the storyline (Saren, Shepard and the Reapers) have all tried to ally themselves with these races?

[Whatever42]

Good point. There could be some deliberate parrallels there. Personally, I think some of those choices are going to turn out as well for Shepard as they do for Saren. At least I'm hoping there is nuance in the choices, not simply choice A means step towards jedi parade and choice B means empire of darkness.

[Nightwriter]

But I will use the power for good! *blinks innocently*

[HazelrahFiver]

Optimystic_X wrote...
They are both illogical choices, which is exactly why they betray emotion.

Well no, we have no idea why the N7 armor fragment is used.  It could seriously have to do with adapting to Shepard in order to infect him in some way.  There's just no telling, because Bioware hasn't told us yet.

To be on topic however, and ignoring the Geth mindset argument,
I believe there have been many more choices throughout the two games that have been playing in the gray area.  They always weild Paragon or Renegade points, but that is due to the nature of the gameplay.  Virmire, Rachni, that one mission in which you destroy a factory or the town, Legion's Loyalty, etc..  I feel like many could be named, and in all seriousness it will come down to the individual player to decide if they made the moral or immoral choice (at least, I hope it works out that way.)

For example, the Rachni return in ME3 to swarm a planet that is inhabited by Reapers AND a large Alliance force mobilized to attack, but losing.  The Rachni easily destroy the Reapers (just play along for the example's sake) but they also cannot stop their swarm when it comes to running down the Alliance battallion.  Now, it was my choice to save the Queen in ME1, and the consequences rest entirely upon my shoulders.  However, I did not know what would truly happen, if anything at all.  The large quantity of soldiers are dead, but so is a large portion of the Reaper threat.  The game carries on regardless if this happens or not, but in some way it is more challenging or risky for your squadmates if the Rachni do not appear.  This means all the player, us, can do is decide personally if it was a good choice or not, and trudge forward.

I really hope things like this occur.  I don't always need Bioware to hold my hand and tell me I was good or bad.  I'm not being demeaning, they have been great about this thus far.

[HazelrahFiver]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Good point. There could be some deliberate parrallels there. Personally, I think some of those choices are going to turn out as well for Shepard as they do for Saren. At least I'm hoping there is nuance in the choices, not simply choice A means step towards jedi parade and choice B means empire of darkness.

It would be quite a twist if it turns out that Legion's purpose is to try and lead Shepard toward the path that Saren took.  Wouldn't surprise me that much either.  Everybody seems to trust Legion, but I don't see why there is any reason he can't be lying about his intentions... especially if they, the Geth, are sentient like many believe.

[Pedrak]

Obviously the consequences of the choices will have to be balanced, they can't just make ME3 easier if you took the Paragon choices-  because now you have more allies.

If you give the player complex moral dilemmas, then you can't punish him later for taking one of two choices which were both presented as reasonable, albeit more or less idealistic or ruthless. That would be bad design.

Modifié par Pedrak, 23 septembre 2010 - 07:39 .

[Anacronian Stryx]

Pedrak wrote...

Obviously the consequences of the choices will have to be balanced, they can't just make ME3 easier if you took the Paragon choices, because now you have more allies.

If you give the player complex moral dilemmas, then you can't punish him later for taking one of two choices which were both presented as reasonable, albeit more or less idealistic or ruthless. That would be bad design.

well it could work like this : The renegade have a harder time fighting but completely loyal forces while the Paragon has a harder time with diplomacy..keeping all the factions in line but a somewhat easier fight if (s)he succeeds.

Modifié par Anacronian Stryx, 23 septembre 2010 - 07:42 .

[Xilizhra]

that one mission in which you destroy a factory or the town

Oddly, that choice doesn't give you points either way. I always choose to nuke the factory, though; not only is it easier to replace machines than people, but a colony getting double-nuked by batarians should probably evacuate anyway.

[HazelrahFiver]

Xilizhra wrote...

that one mission in which you destroy a factory or the town

Oddly, that choice doesn't give you points either way. I always choose to nuke the factory, though; not only is it easier to replace machines than people, but a colony getting double-nuked by batarians should probably evacuate anyway.

Ah, I believe you're right.  Thank you for the correction.  Subtract that one from my small list of examples.

[Eradyn]

Many individuals of various races, including humans, have served the reapers. I do not consider them representatives of their entire species, nor do I judge a whole species by the actions of a "few."

[Greed1914]

I wouldn't call either choice renegade or paragon in that situation. Either the Heretics are destroyed for their beliefs, or they are brainwashed. Now, I won't argue that something didn't need to be done. The Heretics were trying to help the Reapers, even when the Reapers didn't consider them any better than organics. Also, either choice presents a certain amount of risk. If you destroy, then Legion says that any remaining Heretics will attempt to rebuild and continue to help the Reapers. But it'll be a long time before they are up to snuff, but what do machines have if not time? If you overwrite, there is a chance that the Heretics could arrive at the same conclusion again, but for right now, they will all stop trying to help the Reapers.



Neither one seems better, and both seem like more of a let's hope this works scenario.

[PsyrenY]

HazelrahFiver wrote...

Well no, we have no idea why the N7 armor fragment is used.  It could seriously have to do with adapting to Shepard in order to infect him in some way.  There's just no telling, because Bioware hasn't told us yet.

Based on what we know they are illogical choices. Better?
Seriously, they can change anything they want, even the stuff that's already been established; putting that caveat in front of speculation is just senseless nitpickery.

[HazelrahFiver]

Optimystic_X wrote...

HazelrahFiver wrote...

Well no, we have no idea why the N7 armor fragment is used.  It could seriously have to do with adapting to Shepard in order to infect him in some way.  There's just no telling, because Bioware hasn't told us yet.

Based on what we know they are illogical choices. Better?
Seriously, they can change anything they want, even the stuff that's already been established; putting that caveat in front of speculation is just senseless nitpickery.

No, not better.  What do we know?

[Fishy]

I don't see it has brainwashing .. It's like updating Mass Effect because it's keep crashing on you.

Modifié par Suprez30, 24 septembre 2010 - 01:33 .

[stewie1974]

Major Truth wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

Major Truth wrote...

There could be completely logical reasons for both.

They are both illogical choices, which is exactly why they betray emotion.

You cannot say they are illogical without knowing his motives.

Sending Jacob through the vents would appear to be an illogical choice by Shepard, but not if he wants to kill him

Also he could be logically making illogical choices in order to fool people

Hmmm the buying of the video game to "fool" people would require him have precognitive powers that shepard would "somehow" find out.....  If that is picked up as plot element its gonna suck more ass than the archetect speech from the matrix sequels......

Legion can "only " fool people if he knows he is being observed by some omnipresent force that might deem it "note worthy" enough to give to shepard......

Predicting that shepard would infiltrate the shadow brokers base and read a dossier about him............... that's a plot stretch of the highest degree.... not impossible.... but very unlikely..... unless legion is from the future and knows what shepard is going to do MONTHS before shepard does.

But my biggest problem I guess is ..... where did legion get money? If he hacked an account for the money he could have given a bigger donation........ . if he legitamately "earned" the money..... how so? Unless he followed conrads advice and poked around in crates... I mean it's not like a geth is gonna get regular employment if people actually -see- him.... but then there is this whole problem with taking legion on missions beyond the suicide mission anyhow........ I just don't believe people would be as willing as shepard to accept a geth standing around.....

BTW thread title... awesome band name.

Modifié par stewie1974, 24 septembre 2010 - 01:55 .

[Vieuxcruex]

stewie1974 wrote...

Predicting that shepard would infiltrate the shadow brokers base and read a dossier about him............... that's a plot stretch of the highest degree.... not impossible.... but very unlikely..... unless legion is from the future and knows what shepard is going to do MONTHS before shepard does.

Predicting that Shepard might decide to pay the galaxy's best information broker for info on an unknown is a plot stretch?

After all, its not like Shepard as ever gotten any type of information from the broker or an agent, or has had the option to sell to an agent, or even worked or used information sent by an agent to someone else. Not to mention that the Geth under Saren were aware of the Brokers Existence, considering he bribed one of his agents to try and bring data to him rather then send it to the actual broker..

Taking reasonable precautions against someone who has been proven to have spies everywhere, and who might just help out Shepard to save his own skin? Nah, that wouldn't be smart at all.