117 réponses à ce sujet

[yo bro]

I mean its obvious Lel wants to fall in love again. i mean she tells you stories to try and get your opinions on love, overall I choose her over Morrigan. Morrigan trys to cheat on you.

[Herr Uhl]

yo bro wrote...

I mean its obvious Lel wants to fall in love again. i mean she tells you stories to try and get your opinions on love, overall I choose her over Morrigan. Morrigan trys to cheat on you.

When? And you better not mean her "hitting" on Sten.

[yo bro]

Herr Uhl wrote...

yo bro wrote...

I mean its obvious Lel wants to fall in love again. i mean she tells you stories to try and get your opinions on love, overall I choose her over Morrigan. Morrigan trys to cheat on you.

When? And you better not mean her "hitting" on Sten.

yea, that didnt give me that much confidence in that relationship, and even says to Lel love is weakness.

[KnightofPhoenix]

yo bro wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

yo bro wrote...

I mean its obvious Lel wants to fall in love again. i mean she tells you stories to try and get your opinions on love, overall I choose her over Morrigan. Morrigan trys to cheat on you.

When? And you better not mean her "hitting" on Sten.

yea, that didnt give me that much confidence in that relationship, and even says to Lel love is weakness.

Why are you  so posessive?

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 23 septembre 2010 - 11:01 .

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I somewhat agree with Mari actually, though perhaps wouldn't word it that way. I know the guardian may sound like a condescending ass, but I think he has a point vis a vis Leliana. I do believe that she, who was used to be loved and had her world abruptly turn on her, needed the affection of someone and in desperation turned to the Maker and convinced herself that he actually cares for her. And she seeks that affection with the Warden (sometimes the bug doesn't kick off, but Leliana still displays some jealousy, like questioning the wisdom of a leader caring for one, being Morrigan, more than the group).

I actually do agree somewhat with what you say about the vision. Leli was lost, literally. Her "vision" was something she used to try and feel accepted in the Chantry, to feel at home. She herself admits that the vision wasn't a true vision, that it was her way of knowing that the Maker still cared for the world (she says so in one of her early conversations).

The VO notes in the toolset state that Leli struggles at explaining her faith and beliefs because there's usually no logical explanation behind it. It's like in that conversation with Morrigan where she says how she doesn't need to see something to believe in it because she has faith.

So, I do agree with KoP that Leli turned to the Maker in need of affection. I can't say that's a bad thing to be honest (though making up the vision wasn't a good idea). And yes, she does seek affection with the Warden as well.

Is that a bad thing? No. It's not like she'll go crazy if the Warden doesn't romance her. The girl has issues of course, just as all the other characters have them. But it's unfair to call her needy, crazy, and saying that she's "latching onto individuals" because of this.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 23 septembre 2010 - 11:05 .

[yo bro]

ejoslin wrote...

MariSkep wrote...

wickedgoodreed wrote...

In regards to her mental state...If I had been through all that Leliana had, I'd likely become a very jaded, unhappy individual. Yet despite everything she's been through, Leliana still manages to find beauty in the world, leave the shelter of the Chantry to fight for that and what she believes in, and open herself up to the vulnerability of loving again. To me that serves to demonstrate a remarkable psychological resilience. Sure, she still has a lot of "risk factors" and emotional scars, but at least she has the courage to wear them on her sleeve. I think she deserves credit for that. Of  course, I am a Leli-fan so I suppose I'm biased.

She isn't coping with the world around her like Morrigan (not trying to start a feud over who's 'better.' just using her as a foil. I know Morri has her own score of issues). She's creating fantasy after fantasy and latching onto individuals hoping they'll heal whatever wounds she has. That's not healthy.

THAT is not fair.  She wasn't written to be like that, but yeh, her dialog IS bugged in many places.  Leliana was a bard -- an assassin and spy who was not above torture, manipulation, etc.  Then the tables got turned on her, and she was betrayed.  She sought redemption, but she was seeking that from before she met the warden.  She found peace in the chantry, boredom as well.

I never got the impression that she was dependent, though, nor weaving fantasies other than an unfortunate bug that caused her to ninja romance all females in one of the most heart-felt confessions of love you'll hear.  And it IS unfortunate because it does make her sound like a wingnut if you're not in a relationship with her.  But if Alistair or Zevran had the same bug, they'd sound just as nutty.

idk, it was an interesting line, but Idk about most heartfelt confession of love.  Personally I didnt like being compared to a psycho and she is still not over Marj.

[yo bro]

Zjarcal wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I somewhat agree with Mari actually, though perhaps wouldn't word it that way. I know the guardian may sound like a condescending ass, but I think he has a point vis a vis Leliana. I do believe that she, who was used to be loved and had her world abruptly turn on her, needed the affection of someone and in desperation turned to the Maker and convinced herself that he actually cares for her. And she seeks that affection with the Warden (sometimes the bug doesn't kick off, but Leliana still displays some jealousy, like questioning the wisdom of a leader caring for one, being Morrigan, more than the group).

I actually do agree somewhat with what you say about the vision. Leli was lost, literally. Her "vision" was something she used to try and feel accepted in the Chantry, to feel at home. She herself admits that the vision wasn't a true vision, that it was her way of knowing that the Maker still cared for the world (she says so in one of her early conversations).

The VO notes in the toolset state that Leli struggles at explaining her faith and beliefs because there's usually no logical explanation behind it. It's like in that conversation with Morrigan where she says how she doesn't need to see something to believe in it because she has faith.

So, I do agree with KoP that Leli turned to the Maker in need of affection. I can't say that's a bad thing to be honest (though making up the vision wasn't a good idea). And yes, she does seek affection with the Warden as well.

Is that a bad thing? It's not like she'll go crazy if the Warden doesn't romance her. The girl has issues of course, just as all the other characters have them. But it's unfair to call her needy and crazy because of this.

I actually believed in Lels vision somewhat,  I mean she really didnt know the warden was coming and if you talked to the people in Lothering, theyll say she told them a great destiny awaits, and afterall you did end the blight, so she wasnt wrong.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zjarcal wrote...
Is that a bad thing? No. It's not like she'll go crazy if the Warden doesn't romance her. The girl has issues of course, just as all the other characters have them. But it's unfair to call her needy, crazy, and saying that she's "latching onto individuals" because of this.

No, obviously not.
But it can be seen as somewhat unhealthy (all companions have something unhealthy in them in fact).
That's why I prefer hardening her. Because the way I see it, she embraces the best of both worlds, being her general desire to do good but also a more independent and free-spirited (for the lack of a better term) outlook on life. Though of course, reverting to her bard ways where she doesn't realise that she is harming people emotionally could also be unhealthy.

But I agree with you. It doesn't make her bad or crazy. It makes her a flawed complex human being, and hence why I love her.  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 23 septembre 2010 - 11:09 .

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...
Is that a bad thing? No. It's not like she'll go crazy if the Warden doesn't romance her. The girl has issues of course, just as all the other characters have them. But it's unfair to call her needy, crazy, and saying that she's "latching onto individuals" because of this.

No, obviously not.
But it can be seen as somewhat unhealthy (all companions have something unhealthy in them in fact).
That's why I prefer hardening her. Because the way I see it, she embraces the best of both worlds, being her general desire to do good but also a more independent and free-spirited outlook on life. Though of course, reverting to her bard ways where she doesn't realise that she is harming people emotionally could also be unhealthy.

But o I agree with you. It doesn't make her bad or crazy. It makes her a flawed complex human being, and hence why I love her.  

Indeed. It makes her human and it's why I love her so much as well.

My main problem with the hardening thing is her returning to her bardic ways. Being a bard is what caused her all this trauma in the first place. Just like with Alistair, I wish there was a middle ground, one where you could tell Leli to give up on the Chantry life without going back to being a Bard.

[yo bro]

Why is she so possesive with the male warden? does it have to do with the way she treated men in her past.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zjarcal wrote...
My main problem with the hardening thing is her returning to her bardic ways. Being a bard is what caused her all this trauma in the first place. Just like with Alistair, I wish there was a middle ground, one where you could tell Leli to give up on the Chantry life without going back to being a Bard.

The thing is, I personally saw it as the middle ground. Even when hardened, she remains a believer and stil cares for people (she still cares for the safety of the people of Denerim in the final battle). But she becomes more flexible and independent. What I am trying to say is that I don't think she reverts back completely. She does incorporate her past as a bard more for sure (which I don't think is bad, her skills can be useful. Though I admit, being political ambitious I kinda of looked at that choice instrumentally). 

But I don't know. One can argue that in the future, she would return more to her old ways and that wouldn't be the best thing. I don't think there is a right choice in that situation (like all other choice imo).

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 23 septembre 2010 - 11:16 .

[ejoslin]

yo bro wrote...


idk, it was an interesting line, but Idk about most heartfelt confession of love.  Personally I didnt like being compared to a psycho and she is still not over Marj.

It's a wonderful confession if the romance is really on-going -- weird if it is not.  She sees in the warden what is wonderful.  She doesn't compare the warden to who marjolaine turned out to be, but the woman she initially fell in love with.  I saw it more that she was over marjolaine, not that she was trying to get back the woman whom she was.

It's not even my favorite confession in the game (Zevran has THE best confession IMO, his actually made me cry the first time I heard it), but it is beautiful.

Edit: I think hardening Leliana is the best thing.  She goes from being dependent on the maker to being dependent on herself.  Either way, she remains very sweet.

Modifié par ejoslin, 23 septembre 2010 - 11:24 .

[ejoslin]

MariSkep wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...
My main problem with the hardening thing is her returning to her bardic ways. Being a bard is what caused her all this trauma in the first place. Just like with Alistair, I wish there was a middle ground, one where you could tell Leli to give up on the Chantry life without going back to being a Bard.

I just want the girl to be comfortable with who she is. She doesn't need to live for other people, there's nothing morally superior about starving yourself from food at a covenant. You can go out, have a wild night of debauchery and be just as holy as the Reverend Mother.

And I still don't think her attachments are healthy. Especially given how her epilogues not only involve her suicide but also another vision.

Well, Gray Warden Alistair and Zevran also crack if the warden does the ultimate sacrifice if they're the love interest.  

Edit: They may not commit suicide, but they definitely are very miserable.  Alistair leaves the gray wardens and disappears, and Zevran murders his way to the top of the crows but never lets anyone, either as a friend or a lover, get close to him again.

Modifié par ejoslin, 23 septembre 2010 - 11:26 .

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Though I admit, being political ambitious I kinda of looked at that choice instrumentally. 

But I don't know. One can argue that in the future, she would return more to her old ways and that wouldn't be the best thing. I don't think there is a right choice in that situation (like all other choice imo).

Well yes, I'm sure Arcturus wouldn't mind having a lovely bard who can easily assassinate his foes!

There is one conversation when hardened that bothers me. It's when you ask her what her future plans are. She says she wants to return to Orlais to deal with all the people that she made enemies with. While I can understand the desire to eliminate any possible threats before they become a problem, I think it would be healthier if she just forgot about that stuff and moved on.

I know she doesn't actually do this if romanced, since the epilogue states that she'll stay with the Warden, but I don't know, I just don't think it's healthy for her to want to go back to that life.

But I do agree with you that she retains her faith in the Maker and remains a "good person" overall, even when hardened. And I guess I could simply ignore the conversation I mentioned above and RP that my character talks her out of that when hardening her.

[Merilsell]

Wow this actually reminds me on the many Alistair threads in the past, only with Leliana now. OP utterly fails to understand the character and his/her motives, nice forumites try to explain and give an insight, OP mostly ignores that and states even more things that are...umm ...let's call it "unhelpful". Rinse and repeat. *rolls eyes*

[Zjarcal]

Merilsell wrote...

Wow this actually reminds me on the many Alistair threads in the past, only with Leliana now. OP utterly fails to understand the character and his/her motives, nice forumites try to explain and give an insight, OP mostly ignores that and states even more things that are...umm ...let's call it "unhelpful". Rinse and repeat. *rolls eyes*

Thank you Merilsell. I know that Alistair fans can also relate with this very well.

[yo bro]

Actually, you guys may laugh, but for me my heartwarming is when she says she trusts the male warden, during the male warden bard convo. I mean being betrayed by Marj. left her with mistrust issues.



Dont get me wrong, the I love you line was great, but just the fact she brings up marj before she says i love you, really made me wonder if she is loving my character to get over marj.

[ejoslin]

yo bro wrote...

Actually, you guys may laugh, but for me my heartwarming is when she says she trusts the male warden, during the male warden bard convo. I mean being betrayed by Marj. left her with mistrust issues.

Dont get me wrong, the I love you line was great, but just the fact she brings up marj before she says i love you, really made me wonder if she is loving my character to get over marj.

Actually, you're the one who brings up Marjolaine.  That's what starts the conversation, you asking her if she's ok after what happened with Marjolaine.  The conversation just goes on from there, and she realizes she's over her and has started a new life.

[KnightofPhoenix]

@Zjarcal.
Hmmm, I don't actually remember that convo. The epilogue had her in the deep roads investigating broodmothers for me. Maybe this happens when you don't kill Marjolaine?

[yo bro]

Merilsell wrote...

Wow this actually reminds me on the many Alistair threads in the past, only with Leliana now. OP utterly fails to understand the character and his/her motives, nice forumites try to explain and give an insight, OP mostly ignores that and states even more things that are...umm ...let's call it "unhelpful". Rinse and repeat. *rolls eyes*

well half the thread was saying im a jerk

[yo bro]

ejoslin wrote...

yo bro wrote...

Actually, you guys may laugh, but for me my heartwarming is when she says she trusts the male warden, during the male warden bard convo. I mean being betrayed by Marj. left her with mistrust issues.

Dont get me wrong, the I love you line was great, but just the fact she brings up marj before she says i love you, really made me wonder if she is loving my character to get over marj.

Actually, you're the one who brings up Marjolaine.  That's what starts the conversation, you asking her if she's ok after what happened with Marjolaine.  The conversation just goes on from there, and she realizes she's over her and has started a new life.

your right, you do bring it up. so i will admit im wrong.  to bad, i just found out from the lel thread that line is really glitched for males.

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@Zjarcal.
Hmmm, I don't actually remember that convo. The epilogue had her in the deep roads investigating broodmothers for me. Maybe this happens when you don't kill Marjolaine? 

If the Warden does the US, Marjolaine is dead, and Leli is hardened, then the epilogue slide will imply that she does execute that plan.

If Marjolaine isn't killed and Leli isn't romanced, she will go back to search Marjolaine to settle the score for good. This occurs regardless of her hardened status.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zjarcal wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@Zjarcal.
Hmmm, I don't actually remember that convo. The epilogue had her in the deep roads investigating broodmothers for me. Maybe this happens when you don't kill Marjolaine? 

If the Warden does the US, Marjolaine is dead, and Leli is hardened, then the epilogue slide will imply that she does execute that plan.

If Marjolaine isn't killed and Leli isn't romanced, she will go back to search Marjolaine to settle the score for good. This occurs regardless of her hardened status.

Ah I see. Thanks!

Great, one more reason to make me feel slightly guilty of leaving to Mirror world with Morrigan.
...But she'll probably erase all doubt and guilt later