104 réponses à ce sujet

[Shattered Shield]

(bangs head against wall) i cant actually believe ur comparing WoW to Dragonage.

[Sword For Hire]

I hate w o w comparisons, a part of me dies every time i see it typed out. Not only is it demeaning its ridiculous.

[Bl00dDr4gon]

WoW is boooooo has nothing to do with this game except the concept which is shared by basically all rpg's the lore has no feel what-so-ever completely diff story, no comparison....

[Maria Caliban]

Actually the combat is very similar to World of Warcraft.



There are talent trees. Active talents cost a resource - mana or stamina - that slowly regenerates in combat. Each class gets a package of talents that are exclusive to their class and there's no multiclassing. It's real time with different weapons having different speeds. You can even manually move out of the way of a hit/shot, there's a dodge value as well as an armor value, and spells/talents have a cool down period after their use.

[Viz79]

I love these comparisons to WoW. Pretty much sums up WoW - most of those players not only never played a MMO before that game but didnt even play RPGs before then. A newbie MMO for the newbie gamer. Sigh...

For the person above, hello.. those concepts you describe were not magically started with World of Warcraft - lol. Do you think that 'cool down timers' and 'skill trees' is something unique about WoW combat? OMG... these things were in countless games before that...

Modifié par Viz79, 24 octobre 2009 - 11:40 .

[Sword For Hire]

Viz79 wrote...

I love these comparisons to WoW. Pretty much sums up WoW - most of those players not only never played a MMO before that game but didnt even play RPGs before then. A newbie MMO for the newbie gamer. Sigh...

exactly qft!!


pretty soon we are out numbered and our logic and reasoning is smothered by rabid dancing monkeys who reproduce at an incredible rate, there is no fighting it

Modifié par Sword For Hire, 24 octobre 2009 - 11:44 .

[Maria Caliban]

Viz79 wrote...

For the person above, hello.. those concepts you describe were not magically started with World of Warcraft - lol. Do you think that 'cool down timers' and 'skill trees' is something unique about WoW combat? OMG... these things were in countless games before that...

So.. you agree the combat is like World of Warcraft, you just don't like others saying as much?

[fairandbalancedfan]

I like how the posters here have a fanatical hate of World Of Warcraft, and then accuses the WoW players of seeing WoW everywhere.

[danabe]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Actually the combat is very similar to World of Warcraft.

There are talent trees. Active talents cost a resource - mana or stamina - that slowly regenerates in combat. Each class gets a package of talents that are exclusive to their class and there's no multiclassing. It's real time with different weapons having different speeds. You can even manually move out of the way of a hit/shot, there's a dodge value as well as an armor value, and spells/talents have a cool down period after their use.

Wow wasent unique in any of those either. But yeah i suppose it dose seem like wow in this case. But then both WoW and DA:O looks like any previouse game with these combat/skill destribution mechanics.

Also to me it seems poor to compare the two games with only these points highlightend. After all. WoW was mainly just about combat with diffrent aspects such as PvP PvE. That comes with a MMO.

Since Dragon age is not an MMO. Comparing only the combat and leaving out the other great things in DA:O isent fair. Such as quests, story, compainions. etc.

Just my side on it.

[Viz79]

Maria:

No because the combat in WoW is like every single other MMO but watered down. And the combat in a MMO is the same as any numbers of RPGs if you are considering that there are 'skill trees' and there are combat timers.

Thats like saying that if a first person shooter has a gun, its like half life.

Yes it is like Half Life. And Wolfenstein. And Counterstrike. And Medal of Honour. And Day of Defeat and.. lol, the entire genre. World of Warcraft barely belongs in the RPG genre as a MMORPG, and is an example of a very poor one.  Dragon Age is an example of a pure cRPG and is the spiritual successor of one of the most acclaimed ones (Baldurs Gate). 

I'd love to see WoW players play DA though - considering the high difficulty level of DA compared to the super easy one of WoW, they shouldn't get past the prologue

So.. does Dragon Age have skills and combat akin to the very genre it is in (RPG)? Yes. What a surprise. And no, the rpg genre didnt begin with WoW (which isnt a typical RPG to begin with, but a MMO'RPG').

Modifié par Viz79, 24 octobre 2009 - 11:54 .

[Eccer]

Since when did people start to compare wow and biowares single player rpgs?



Oh well, I guess they have more commercial success now than before.



Anyways, yes in fact! Every rpg looks like one another! Go look at some other games, and you will find lots of resemblances!

[Andre-Figueiredo]

There are some points in common. Let´s see:

1) Elfs (the race) in a very bad situation;

2) Magic attracts demons (see warcraft RPG to more information about it);

3) Warcraft 3 had the scourge invading Lordaeron and in Dragon Age we have the Darkspawn invading Ferelden (what makes humans, dwarfs and elfs fight togheter against the same oponent);

4) no four, I think.

ps.: But, about the gameplay, the games are completely diferent.

[Shattered Shield]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Viz79 wrote...

For the person above, hello.. those concepts you describe were not magically started with World of Warcraft - lol. Do you think that 'cool down timers' and 'skill trees' is something unique about WoW combat? OMG... these things were in countless games before that...

So.. you agree the combat is like World of Warcraft, you just don't like others saying as much?

no hes saying that WoW's combat is a copy of older better games......comparing WoW to Dragonage is like comparing strawberrys to mangos. Dragonage has vast differences to WoW that i dont feel like going into do to being lazy and not wanting to type that much

[Maria Caliban]

Viz79 wrote...

Maria:

No because the combat in WoW is like every single other MMO but watered down. And the combat in a MMO is the same as any numbers of RPGs if you are considering that there are 'skill trees' and there are combat timers.

Thats like saying that if a first person shooter has a gun, its like half life.

Yes it is like Half Life. And Wolfenstein. And Counterstrike. And Medal of Honour. And Day of Defeat and.. lol, the entire genre.

So.. does Dragon Age have skills and combat akin to the very genre it is in (RPG)? Yes. What a surprise. And no, the rpg genre didnt begin with WoW (which isnt a typical RPG to begin with, but a MMO'RPG').

All I can gather is that you're an illogical person.

At the beginning, you say, ‘No, Dragon Age combat is not like World of Warcraft.’ At the end you say, “Yes, Dragon Age combat is like World of Warcraft as well as other games.”

Which is it?

Keep in mind, I’ve never made the claim that World of Warcraft was the first to create these gameplay elements or the only game to have them. You just keep on bringing it up despite it not having anything to do with whether Dragon Age combat is like World of Warcraft’s.

Eccer wrote...

Since when did people start to compare wow and biowares single player rpgs?

About three years ago when we started learning about Dragon Age's combat.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 25 octobre 2009 - 12:03 .

[Viz79]

Shattered Shield wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Viz79 wrote...

For the person above, hello.. those concepts you describe were not magically started with World of Warcraft - lol. Do you think that 'cool down timers' and 'skill trees' is something unique about WoW combat? OMG... these things were in countless games before that...

So.. you agree the combat is like World of Warcraft, you just don't like others saying as much?

no hes saying that WoW's combat is a copy of older better games......comparing WoW to Dragonage is like comparing strawberrys to mangos. Dragonage has vast differences to WoW that i dont feel like going into do to being lazy and not wanting to type that much

I think the fact people are comparing this to WoW is frightening. It basically means WoW suddenly brought an influx of complete newbs to RPG gaming and they will be basing all their experiences on what they have already been through in World of Warcraft.  But MMOs are essentially just grinds and camping (and in WoW, mindlessly easy ones, fetch quests and spawn camping). DA should blow their minds   

[Viz79]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Viz79 wrote...

Maria:

No because the combat in WoW is like every single other MMO but watered down. And the combat in a MMO is the same as any numbers of RPGs if you are considering that there are 'skill trees' and there are combat timers.

Thats like saying that if a first person shooter has a gun, its like half life.

Yes it is like Half Life. And Wolfenstein. And Counterstrike. And Medal of Honour. And Day of Defeat and.. lol, the entire genre.

So.. does Dragon Age have skills and combat akin to the very genre it is in (RPG)? Yes. What a surprise. And no, the rpg genre didnt begin with WoW (which isnt a typical RPG to begin with, but a MMO'RPG').

All I can gather is that you're an illogical person.

At the beginning, you say, ‘No, Dragon Age combat is not like World of Warcraft.’ At the end you say, “Yes, Dragon Age combat is like World of Warcraft as well as other games.”

Which is it?

Keep in mind, I’ve never made the claim that World of Warcraft was the first to create these gameplay elements or the only game to have them. You just keep on bringing it up despite it not having anything to do with whether Dragon Age combat is like World of Warcraft’s.

Maria - illogical is when you compare a game to a SPECIFIC game for no discernible reason when the aspects you describe are a part of the genre.  See these examples:


Rise of Legends is like Starcraft
Correct.  but what is the point of that comparison other than they are both RTS games and having nothing specific in common except the aspects that every other RTS has?  NOTHING. So why name that specific game except to make it misleading? 

Half Life is like Quake.
Correct - in that they both use GUNS.  But the comparison almost implies the game has something more in common except the fact the protagonist uses a gun.  I think what is meant here is Half Life is like Quake which is like every other FPS.  Other than that common aspect, they have nothing SPECIFIC in common except the trademarks of that genre i.e. weapons, ammo, health etc.

Dragon Age is like World of Warcraft in the only aspect that they have what every other RPG has - skill trees, turn based combat etc.  Nothing else makes it connect to that game whatsoever then this aspect.

OMG, thats like saying Tom Cruise is like Morgan Freeman (they are both actors).
Or Obama is like Bush (they are both are/were presidents of the USA) <== this one is my favourite. Oh look they both sat in the Oval Office. LOL.

I suppose comparing DA to WoW is like the above. Heh

Modifié par Viz79, 25 octobre 2009 - 12:11 .

[fairandbalancedfan]

Viz79 wrote...

Maria:


I'd love to see WoW players play DA though - considering the high difficulty level of DA compared to the super easy one of WoW, they shouldn't get past the prologue

Never understood the logic of hating a group of gamers. Bioware would want WoW players to play their game, because they want their money too and it is great for sales. Owing your allegiance to a particular genre of gaming, or a section of gamers or games is pointless imo. Because at the end of the day you are lining the pockets of game companies. They don't give you discounts for hating their rivals.

[Taltherion]

And again ... if I take certain aspects and focus on them, I can prove that strategy games and first person shooters are the same.



There are some things that are similar in WoW combat and in Dragon Age ... but one has to add that certain things are similar in hundreds of other games.



Skill trees, active and passive skills, some class-exclusive, have been a staple of many rpgs ... in some aspects even Bioware rpgs ... some of them older than WoW ... so ... WoW combat is like Baldur's Gate combat?



If you now take cooldowns, realtime, skill trees etc and say that because of that Dragon Age is "like" WoW ... I'll just say that you can't pause WoW combat.

[Viz79]

fairandbalancedfan wrote...

Viz79 wrote...

Maria:


I'd love to see WoW players play DA though - considering the high difficulty level of DA compared to the super easy one of WoW, they shouldn't get past the prologue

Never understood the logic of hating a group of gamers. Bioware would want WoW players to play their game, because they want their money too and it is great for sales. Owing your allegiance to a particular genre of gaming, or a section of gamers or games is pointless imo. Because at the end of the day you are lining the pockets of game companies. They don't give you discounts for hating their rivals.

Not really a case of hate but of truth.  I played MUDS (text based games before MMOS game out) and played most of those too. I tried WoW to see what all the fuss was about and I pretty much saw it as it was.  Theres no point arguing about it - Blizzard managed to capture the majority by pandering to what the masses are - hyper casual gamers who want rewards with minimal effort and have played the genre before.  So what do you expect for that?  Obviously a very easy game.

Theres no hate in calling a banana a banana. Most WoW gamers who finally tire of this 'introduction' to MMOs tend to move on to more sophisticated games in that genre or explore other genres completely (as many seem to be new to PC gaming in general).  Its only when comparisons are made to games in this way that one has a doubletake and wondered what just happened. World of Warcraft is fantastic in the fact it is the 'first' MMO' for lots of newbie gamers and thus you always have fond memories of the first MMO you play.  Rose tinted goggles suddenly doesnt turn KFC into a Michelin Star Restaurant however.

[thheNO]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Viz79 wrote...

Maria:

No because the combat in WoW is like every single other MMO but watered down. And the combat in a MMO is the same as any numbers of RPGs if you are considering that there are 'skill trees' and there are combat timers.

Thats like saying that if a first person shooter has a gun, its like half life.

Yes it is like Half Life. And Wolfenstein. And Counterstrike. And Medal of Honour. And Day of Defeat and.. lol, the entire genre.

So.. does Dragon Age have skills and combat akin to the very genre it is in (RPG)? Yes. What a surprise. And no, the rpg genre didnt begin with WoW (which isnt a typical RPG to begin with, but a MMO'RPG').

All I can gather is that you're an illogical person.

At the beginning, you say, ‘No, Dragon Age combat is not like World of Warcraft.’ At the end you say, “Yes, Dragon Age combat is like World of Warcraft as well as other games.”

Which is it?

Keep in mind, I’ve never made the claim that World of Warcraft was the first to create these gameplay elements or the only game to have them. You just keep on bringing it up despite it not having anything to do with whether Dragon Age combat is like World of Warcraft’s.

Eccer wrote...

Since when did people start to compare wow and biowares single player rpgs?

About three years ago when we started learning about Dragon Age's combat.

Combat in WoW compared to DA:O, lets see:

-Pause and play mechanic.....nope
-Spell interraction(like grease and fire)....nope
-Companions.....nope
-Talens you learn by yourself......nope
-Non-spammable abilities...nah
-Flanking....nope
-"finish him"-moves....no
-switch characters.....negative
-top-down camera.....nope



Yeah, real similar. If you had said Neverwinter Nights or Jade Empire on the other hand......


@Viz79:

You forgot to add lack of real quests and an advanced story.

Modifié par thheNO, 25 octobre 2009 - 12:22 .

[Eccer]

Eccer wrote...

Since when did people start to compare wow and biowares single player rpgs?

About three years ago when we started learning about Dragon Age's combat.

Really?  

Oh well, there's nothing bad comparing wow to Dragon Age. I bet the regular wow players will  be suprised by the combat system xD

[Srikandi715]

Not sure why people are saying that Dragon Age has skill trees. It doesn't. At least, based on what I've read, there are no branches at all in the skill system; that is, there are no skills which are prerequisite to more than one other skill. DA:O DOES have a skill system with prerequisites, but that's not a tree.

Combat in WoW and DA:O will be very, very different, if nothing else then because you are controlling a party and not just one character. Unless you decide to ignore your party and just let the AI do its thing, or solo the game and give up on the story and sidequests that your party bring to the table, that means you will be pausing combat, selecting attacks, thinking about position and so on for the whole group. Don't forget you have to worry about friendly fire, which makes a massive difference right there.

As for WoW being a bad game or trivially easy... it's as hard as you, the player, choose to make it. And it's successful because it appeals to a lot of different play styles, not just one. DA:O is not like that, it's true; it will have a much narrower appeal, but that's not a reason to diss WoW.

Pretty much all my WoW friends weren't using it as their intro to MMOs; they'd all played multiple MMOs, some of em back to the MUD days, and most of them had played many SP RPGs, including Bioware RPGs, and shooters and other kinds of games as well. They enjoyed WoW because of the polish. I'm not saying I personally like the game; I played it for a while but no longer. But the reflexive contempt for WoW players among those people who make a different choice of games seems to be a kind of arrogance that must be rooted in defensiveness. WoW is what it is -- just another choice that appeals to some gamers (lots of them actually), and not to others.

Modifié par Srikandi715, 25 octobre 2009 - 12:37 .

[Mordaedil]

I think the issue is arguing about the source of the matter.

The developers of Dragon Age were influenced somewhat by WoW, so it's unlikely you'll see some similarities, yes.

Does this constitute a problem? Does this mean they should copy more from World of Warcraft? No, it's their game system and we decide whether to play with it or not. If it's not perfect, well... Some of us will have a choice to make on that.

WoW is however not the 'true source' of these inspirations. They were probably directly lifted from WoW, but the mechanics themselves have dates back way back when in the history of video games, and well... It's nothing new under the sun, but a lot of MMO's never used them before WoW, and after WoW a lot of MMO's started using them, as if getting a wake-up call.

I think a lot of people are vexing over giving credit where it is not due, such as when certain mechanics have been in place in most MMO's since Neverwinter Nights (AOL edition) or other, later works, and then are given credit to WoW.

All I can say is, don't be so picky. People will take the closest resemblance they can and it's not directly harmful to you and your gamer reputation will not be injured just because they could not identify that Ultima Online was the first MMORPG to feature that one basic example they presented as unique and inspired.

Odds are, BioWare would already have been inspired from other games too, it's nothing to really fear. It's not like they are going to one day say "hey, grinding enemies for experience sure is fun. We should predominately feature that in our future games from now on."

[Riot Inducer]

Must we really compare every game ever to WoW? I mean no disrespect to WoW players but I swear I've seen a thread comparing every game either remotely rpg or mmo based to Blizzard's monolithic cash-cow. Yes it's the biggest most popular MMO to date, it took the popular Warcraft name and combined it with proven MMORPG systems to make a very popular game. It is however not a very revolutionary game, it did not introduce any sweeping changes to RPG or MMO design, it just cashed in the most on the proven Everquest formula for MMORPGs.



I know it's a game that's dear to many people but it is not worth comparing it to every other game that features character classes, elves, or magic. It's like calling everyone into the kitchen to announce that since tomatoes are round they are just like oranges, it just doesn't make sense.

[Mordaedil]

We could compare every game to Tetris, the best video game ever made.