528 réponses à ce sujet

[sinosleep]

Modded Shepards? NONE of those Shepards are modded, and I'm not comparing the different classes to each other, I'm comparing two completely different play styles for the SAME classes. I was being sarcastic about what the two people before me had posted. They claim that a) skills make no difference whatsoever and you can easily just go through the entire game without investing a single point in one and  you only need to play the game with each class once cause there's only one way to play each class. The videos show wildly contrasting playstyles for the same classes disproving that whole bit. And I'd like to see video of no skills Shep playing through the game.

Modifié par sinosleep, 06 octobre 2010 - 12:00 .

[AntiChri5]

Wow, somebody needs to poke their head into the strategy forum more often........

[Jebel Krong]

sinosleep wrote...

Modded Shepards? NONE of those Shepards are modded, and I'm not comparing the different classes to each other, I'm comparing two completely different play styles for the SAME classes. I was being sarcastic about what the two people before me had posted. They claim that a) skills make no difference whatsoever and you can easily just go through the entire game without investing a single point in one and  you only need to play the game with each class once cause there's only one way to play each class. The videos show wildly contrasting playstyles for the same classes disproving that whole bit. And I'd like to see video of no skills Shep playing through the game.

fair enough but that's not what you put in the post: "shotgun infiltrator" is a tad misleading... the RPG-ers always claim that the skills don't matter, but you just know they've never played on insanity if they say that.

[lazuli]

sinosleep wrote...
And I'd like to see video of no skills Shep playing through the game.

I'd imagine it could be done, but it would be even less enjoyable than the time you went through as the Adept sans weaponry.

[kalle90]

sinosleep wrote...
Modded Shepards? NONE of those Shepards are modded, and I'm not comparing the different classes to each other, I'm comparing two completely different play styles for the SAME classes. I was being sarcastic about what the two people before me had posted. They claim that a) skills make no difference whatsoever and you can easily just go through the entire game without investing a single point in one and  you only need to play the game with each class once cause there's only one way to play each class. The videos show wildly contrasting playstyles for the same classes disproving that whole bit. And I'd like to see video of no skills Shep playing through the game.

First of all: What I said was just a secondary point and not on-topic. The main thing was that I still haven't seen almost anyone (you for example) comment on whatever they think ME2's ammo/combat system is unimprovable. I just see people saying "ME1/2 system sucks/is better". The past is past and nothing can be done so we can only discuss ways on how to do it all in ME3

So do you, sinosleep, think the game would be worse if there was something like slowly regenerating or infinite ammo coupled with reload mechanics? Are you afraid of the risks that Bioware changes the system and ruins it? Or are you just telling us to not get our hopes up because Bioware said we shouldn't expect big changes?



Now for the long-ass off-topic: About the engineer videos. They were at different levels and absolutely nothing stops you from changing from shotgun to smg, and there's a chance those are identical (without dlc you only have 1 or 2 alternatives). So when my engineer switched (sometimes forced to) weapons and leveled all skills quite equally there's really nothing a new engineer could bring in (a couple of max skills, but even for that I can just buy the retrain "upgrade").

It doesn't feel like 1 engineer is a tech expert with no knowledge of weapons and another one knows how to use pistols and shotguns while being somewhat "dumber" like ME1 allowed me to do. Instead the difference feels very artificial and that Shepard can do anything unless I restrict him/her during gameplay. I guess you could compare it to Oblivion in which you can be a master of everything unless the player restricts himself. (Admittably there are people who definitely like Shepard being a master of everything: "No need to carry a techie around", "bullets go exactly where I want" and so on).

It just comes down to: A few total weapons every character is just as good with, a few skills with only 1 specialization choice at the end, and that generally you can take only a couple of hits meaning you have to stick to cover (and there's no crouch). 6 playthoughs of ME2 easily allows me to use every skill, weapon and tactic, and make most of the story choices (I don't want to do all of them because that removes some personal impact of the choices).

Sure some of this criticism applies to ME1 as well, but like I said ME3 is the only thing Bioware can still change.

[sinosleep]

the on topic question: It should be pretty clear that I'm mostly in the don't get your hopes up camp as I have repeatedly posed the question "Why would BioWare go through the hassle of completely retooling the combat to emulate the shooters of the era only to make drastic changes to those very mechanics in the next installment?"

Unlike in the time from ME 1 to ME 2 there is no "a ha" moment to spark them to change the combat mechanics in any meaningful way since they've met they're pre-established goal, which clearly that wasn't the case with ME 1.

I have no doubt that the rpg side of things will be getting a boost as the dev team has made that their new goal, but considering that ammo and whether it's infinite or not is firmly in the combat camp I just don't see any reason why they would change it.

Some of the ideas don't sound half bad but at the end of the day I'm perfectly happy with ammo as is and can only see switching back at this point leading to an even bigger cluster**** of new lore and backlash.

the off topic stuff: I don't think you are grasping how big a difference weapons can make to playstyles in this game. Yes, myself and Gatsby both have many of the same powers on our engineers but the way we approach battles is COMPLETELY different and for me is reason enough to warrant another playthrough. For one, shotguns and assault rifles are only available to an engineer post collector ship and secondly using a respec or something like that to occasionally change things up wouldn't be enough for me. I wouldn't get anything out of playing say Tali's recruitment as a hang back, smg using, caster engineer, and then playing Mordin's loyalty mission as an up close, shotgun wielding, engineer. I would want to see how ALL the missions play out as a shotgun engineer and how ALL the missions play out as a smg engineer since they both utilize tactics so different that it completely changes the game. The same thing applies to the different variations of soldiers, adepts, sentinels, etc, except for the vanguard. That is the ONLY class with which I'd say there's pretty much only one way to play since adepts have all of their powers and playing in any way that's not chargecentric kinda makes you a weaker adept at the end of the day.

And yes, I'm VERY MUCH aboard the Shepard is a master of everything train for reasons I gave about 10 pages ago.

Modifié par sinosleep, 06 octobre 2010 - 07:09 .

[Arbalest7]

sinosleep wrote...

: I don't think you are grasping how big a difference weapons can make to playstyles in this game. Yes, myself and Gatsby both have many of the same powers on our engineers but the way we approach battles is COMPLETELY different and for me is reason enough to warrant another playthrough. For one, shotguns and assault rifles are only available to an engineer post collector ship and secondly using a respec or something like that to occasionally change things up wouldn't be enough for me. I wouldn't get anything out of playing say Tali's recruitment as a hang back, smg using, caster engineer, and then playing Mordin's loyalty mission as an up close, shotgun wielding, engineer. I would want to see how ALL the missions play out as a shotgun engineer and how ALL the missions play out as a smg engineer since they both utilize tactics so different that it completely changes the game. The same thing applies to the different variations of soldiers, adepts, sentinels, etc, except for the vanguard. That is the ONLY class with which I'd say there's pretty much only one way to play since adepts have all of their powers and playing in any way that's not chargecentric kinda makes you a weaker adept at the end of the day.

And yes, I'm VERY MUCH aboard the Shepard is a master of everything train for reasons I gave about 10 pages ago.

Actually once for a lark I tried a Caster Vanguard, it wasn't as awesome as CQC Infiltrator or Assault Sentinel but it was a pretty workable experience. Being able to use Incendiary ammo on your own, Squad Cyro and the Mattock and GPS made it feel different enough from the Adept.

[kalle90]

sinosleep wrote...
Some of the ideas don't sound half bad but at the end of the day I'm perfectly happy with ammo as is and can only see switching back at this point leading to an even bigger cluster**** of new lore and backlash.

Thank You

Although I don't agree that it would have to be another hit against the lore. Supposedly weapons that overheated were prone to malfuncions which is why they were replaced with clips so you're never stuck with a broken weapon (I guess Shepard was lucky or skilled enough not to suffer from it). By this logic they could develop clips that cool down when vented/not in use. Infinite ammo, but safeguards against malfuncions

the off topic stuff: I don't think you are grasping how big a difference weapons can make to playstyles in this game. Yes, myself and Gatsby both have many of the same powers on our engineers but the way we approach battles is COMPLETELY different and for me is reason enough to warrant another playthrough.

For one, shotguns and assault rifles are only available to an engineer post collector ship and secondly using a respec or something like that to occasionally change things up wouldn't be enough for me.
 
I wouldn't get anything out of playing say Tali's recruitment as a hang back, smg using, caster engineer, and then playing Mordin's loyalty mission as an up close, shotgun wielding, engineer. I would want to see how ALL the missions play out as a shotgun engineer and how ALL the missions play out as a smg engineer since they both utilize tactics so different that it completely changes the game.
 
And yes, I'm VERY MUCH aboard the Shepard is a master of everything train for reasons I gave about 10 pages ago.

We just disagree here.
- Yes it is somewhat different, but it's all intentional way you can change anytime you want (per se every engineer, and to some extent even every Shepard, is exactly the same with the same weapon slots and same misc. skills like hacking). In the end IMO ME1 allowed more variation while ME2 is designed to be played as "master Shepard"
- That weapon decision comes late. In ME1 I could craft different characters from the moment I create them
- I'd like to see it too, but like said ME2 promotes and even forces using different weapons, and ME1 allows much more variation. Basically ME1 did the same thing better IMO.
- And there's the reason for difference. I liked how I could supposedy make a tech genius Shepard who's never used a gun, a master-at-arms soldier who only knows killing or a Storm/Jedi-esque super biotic who doesn't use weapons, or a "real" Shepard who's a bit of everything. In ME2 they're all weapon oriented messiah-like leaders who handle tech and usually biotics too (I consider even adrenaline rush to be something supernatural a pure soldier doesn't have, even ammo powers are debatable. Things like Overkill and Assassination were dubious too though)

Question is, though not in this thread, can Bioware do both. Make us able to play both the general "master Shepard" and more specialized expert of 1-2 areas.

Modifié par kalle90, 06 octobre 2010 - 08:42 .

[Embrosil]

Well I will ask again. Anyone has a modified coalsced.ini for 1.02 patch? Or can someone please post a link? I tried to modify it myself, but the result was that I could not launch the game...

[Embrosil]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Actually, I thought the explanation for heats sinks was quite well explained in the codex. Much like how the Treaty of Farixen is the Washington Naval Treaty IN SPACE, the introduction of heat sinks has parallels to the evolution from battle rifles to assault rifles in real life.

To make a long story short, Germany realized sometime during WWII that giving the average infantryman a rifle that could shoot over 800m, firing large heavy bullets, was in large part a waste since most combat took place at much shorter ranges and that soldiers tended to expend a very large amount of ammunition to kill a single target. On top of that, the weight of the ammo also limited how much they could carry, an issue consider the point I just made about ammo expenditure. Post-WWII and Korea studies by the US Army led them to the same conclusion. The Wehrmacht ended up developing the Stg-44, the US Army the M-14 (still a battle rifle, but less so than the Garand) and eventually the M-16.

The point is, the switch was made because it made soldiers more combat effective, chiefly by allowing them to put more lead on the target in a short amount of time.

So how does FORCING me to switch from a sniper rifle to a SMG or pistol to kill that far away enemy making me more combat effective? How many snipers/marksmen today are going to a battle with 10, yes TEN rounds??? Imagine a German soldier with a Stg-44, a new type of gun in the world, who has only 10 rounds to it, so he MUST carry a Parabellum Pistol with another 12 and just to be sure an old reliable Kar-98 rifle with 5 rounds. Because that is what we have now in ME2. It is lame and idiotic beyond belief.

TheBlackBaron wrote...
In the interval between ME1 and ME2, the geth came to a similar conclusion, in this case that "in an age of regenerative kinetic barriers, the weapon with the most rounds down-range the fastest wins. Combatants were forced to deliberately shoot slower to manage waste heat or pause as their weapons vented."

Switching to thermal clips allows trained soldiers to manage that heat at a much faster pace, while also eliminating some vulnerabilities in the old system that powers like Sabotage could exploit (which is an in-universe explanation for why Sabotage was changed and rolled into Overload). Are there issues with how it was implemented? Yeah. It is odd how suddenly every single damn weapon in the Terminus System is now using them, or why the ten-year old mechs Jacob's dad has are using them. But for them most part, that's a gameplay mechanic out of necessity. Just recite the MST3K mantra.

How come that EVERY single NPC in game has one (or two weapons) with UNLIMITED ammo and only I have to run around the battlefield and collect it like an idiot? Wait, I got it. Those Geth are really clever guys. How do we kill an enemy wearing armor and being in cover? We will force him to run right in front of guns because he will have to collect ammo now! And just to be sure, we will persuade hm to wear a colored paper costume instead of actual armor. Wow, that is what I call a strategy!

Modifié par Embrosil, 08 octobre 2010 - 11:02 .

[SithLordExarKun]

Terror_K wrote...

lazuli wrote...

Get off of your high horse, please.  Or was that satire?

Oh please... I'm sick of all this "you're elitist!" bullplop being thrown at those of us that criticise ME2 for being overly simple simply because we want a little depth to our gameplay and the way things are done and presented. It seems these days you can't want things to be any less than their most simple without being an "elitist ******" or something. God forbid one want a game that's actually got some meat on it and isn't completely watered down to the point where it does half the stuff for you.

You are behaving like an elitist dirt bag by implying only people who like "complex RPG's"that  like ME1 and that its meant for "intelligent people". Just because they over simplified a number of things(most of it was garbage in ME1 anyway, but they should have improved it like you said rather than scrap it) doesn't mean its a game suited for "less intelligent people" as you vindicatively imply.

Not that im defending ME2(im pretty much done with the ME trilogy anyway) but im just highlighting that if you make statements like that, you're pretty much giving out the elitist vibe.

[casedawgz]

Dr. Megaverse wrote...

archurban wrote...

unlimited? do you want just damn shooting spree? it's not fun at all. realistic or not, limited ammo gives you more strategy, and the way of survival as a plan. I guess that you don't want to think nothing at all during playing a game, huh? so I guess that you can't play metro 2033 because you feel always very limited ammo. it's not just for mass effect 2. it is applied to the whole first person shooter game as well. it's strategy, and way you have to play.

Predictable.

Did you forgest the heat penalty and the loss of accuracy?  Those are both things you have to manage.  As a matter of fact I don't remember the last time I PERSONALLY shot my weapon all the way to overheat, except maybe a sniper rifle.  So I'm not standing around washing the walls with bullets, and your assumption that I am just goes to show that you'd really rather spend time insulting someone you don't know, that taking place in a constructive discussion.

You will henceforth be ignored.  <_<

You DON'T have to manage them though. By the time you get 3/4 through the game you're shooting forever, with no loss to accuracy through upgrades. Its utterly gamebreaking. It's like if there was an "infinite thermal clips" upgrade in ME2. You'd just shoot the mattock forever and the game would be ruined.

[kalle90]

casedawgz wrote...
It's like if there was an "infinite thermal clips" upgrade in ME2. You'd just shoot the mattock forever and the game would be ruined.

DingDingDing!

Amazing no one else said this earlier. This sums up everything this thread is about

[Temper_Graniteskul]

How would it be 'ruined'? I ask as a gamer for whom the shooter aspect of ME2 was the most uninteresting and frustrating part of the game. The game does not magically force players to optimize, though it most certainly forces some sub-optimal choices (limited sniper rifle capacity being a glaring example). In an unlimited ammo/minimal overheat situation, there's no compelling reason to choose the most powerful weapon except to make things easier for the player - so if you're not interested in easier, why would you do it? But if you are interested in easier, why shouldn't you be able to?

[Xerxes52]

I would like a hybrid system, where you need to get thermal clips if you want to keep up a good rate of fire, but if your gun overheats and you're out of clips, it will slowly bleed off heat (slow ammo regeneration). If you holster your weapon though, your hardsuit pumps coolant gel (or some other magic stuff) into the weapon, and it goes back to full "ammo" much faster (five to fifteen seconds, depending on weapon class).



You would still be encouraged to swap weapons in combat, but you won't have to constantly be on the lookout for thermal clips.

[Atmosfear3]

Hey guys can you explain why my pot, that just boiled a gallon of water is still hot even though I only just turned off the heat 5 seconds ago?

See what I did there?

Cooling down thermal clips, lol

Modifié par Atmosfear3, 09 octobre 2010 - 12:20 .

[Lumikki]

Atmosfear3 wrote...

Hey guys can you explain why my pot, that just boiled a gallon of water is still hot even though I only just turned off the heat 5 seconds ago?

See what I did there?

Cooling down thermal clips, lol

Yeah, air is very bad termal conduction. Also it's about mass and temperature what needs to be cool down. If you want cool pistol in 5 second, it would require droping it in something very cold and massive with good termal conduction.

But you don't need reality of physical laws, if you say it's magic.

Modifié par Lumikki, 09 octobre 2010 - 01:43 .

[William Adama]

Watch this video, I like this idea alot for the next game:

[RoninOmega]

Dr. Megaverse wrote...

archurban wrote...

unlimited? do you want just damn shooting spree? it's not fun at all. realistic or not, limited ammo gives you more strategy, and the way of survival as a plan. I guess that you don't want to think nothing at all during playing a game, huh? so I guess that you can't play metro 2033 because you feel always very limited ammo. it's not just for mass effect 2. it is applied to the whole first person shooter game as well. it's strategy, and way you have to play.

Predictable.

Did you forgest the heat penalty and the loss of accuracy?  Those are both things you have to manage.  As a matter of fact I don't remember the last time I PERSONALLY shot my weapon all the way to overheat, except maybe a sniper rifle.  So I'm not standing around washing the walls with bullets, and your assumption that I am just goes to show that you'd really rather spend time insulting someone you don't know, that taking place in a constructive discussion.

You will henceforth be ignored.  <_<

So typical, he's reported...

I don't get why people insist on being ignorant, it's ok to disagree, but when you don't get the main point when it's right in your face, the op was very fair with this too for both sides.

Anyways, on topic, op, I actually have a very similar opinion as you do, I also felt that if this new clip technology were to amass, at least a few people would still have the old system were it would overheat, it would just be logical that someone modified todays weapons and added the system that doesn't use clips.

[Embrosil]

William Adama wrote...

Watch this video, I like this idea alot for the next game:

This is the best idea I have seen so far. 

[kalle90]

Lumikki wrote...

Atmosfear3 wrote...

Hey guys can you explain why my pot, that just boiled a gallon of water is still hot even though I only just turned off the heat 5 seconds ago?

See what I did there?

Cooling down thermal clips, lol

Yeah, air is very bad termal conduction. Also it's about mass and temperature what needs to be cool down. If you want cool pistol in 5 second, it would require droping it in something very cold and massive with good termal conduction.

But you don't need reality of physical laws, if you say it's magic.

Or sci-fi. There could be all sorts of crazy cryo technology to cool the clips down.

You could simply give Shepard (and everyone else) a hip/wrist thermal clip container with some cool down tech. It would hold some spare clips you use when the others are cooling down.

And do we really want to talk about common sense? Like it's been said many times:
- Why doesn't everyone use clips?
- How can I get them from collectors?
- How come a single clip I pick up give bullets to every weapon?
- How can I reload a thermal clip while it still has ammo?
- How come the clip heats up after the same amount of shots no matter how frequently I shoot?
- Why do the clips look like cheap plastic tubes in-game but in cutscenes they are orange orbs?
- How ME1 had weapons with basically infinite ammo and near instant cooldown and then the technology got worse?

But yeah it truly feels like the weapon technology from ME2 is taken from today and not the future


I agree the video above nails it, pretty much exactly what I've been hoping for. Take a look at it Bioware

Modifié par kalle90, 09 octobre 2010 - 08:04 .

[Lumikki]

kalle90 wrote...

Or sci-fi. There could be all sorts of crazy cryo technology to cool the clips down.

You could simply give Shepard (and everyone else) a hip/wrist thermal clip container with some cool down tech. It would hold some spare clips you use when the others are cooling down.

Sure, if you have smaller enough energy source for it. Meaning, you need energy to cool something down fast.

But yeah it truly feels like the weapon technology from ME2 is taken from today and not the future

Sure, because "today" feels better. If you want magic just say so, no need to explain anything.
It's not really about today, it's about breaking physical laws. Material just doesn't come from nothingness.

Modifié par Lumikki, 09 octobre 2010 - 08:29 .

[kalle90]

Lumikki wrote...
Sure, if you have smaller enough energy source for it. Meaning, you need energy to cool something down fast.

With shields, biotic amps, the armor mods (plus weapon tech from ME1) and everything I don't think that'd be much of a trouble. Hell, you can even shoot cryo ammo without limit in both games. And it's not like the clips have to be ice cold to be fresh

Sure, because "today" feels better. If you want magic just say so, no need to explain anything.
It's not really about today, it's about breaking physical laws. Material just doesn't come from nothingness.

I don't want magic (It's ok when the game is based around it but ME isn't). Magic is what the clips are - things that don't have any sort of believable explanation. Ever since ME was released it has been received praise for it's "believability" even from scientists. ME2 too, although it seems Bioware threw some of it away for the sake of gameplay and drama (bluntly copying instead of adjusting)

There are tons of things that don't fit today or laws we know from flying cars to biotics. If Bioware wanted to put all that in as magic I doubt they would have written the huge codex.

Like I've said so many times before: I dislike the current system from both lore/believability (tons of holes) and gameplay (simply an inferior copy) view. The video listed above has a system that could be good for both (although it would still leave us with worse technology than ME1 had, but what's done is done)

[Lumikki]

kalle90 wrote...

There are tons of things that don't fit today or laws we know from flying cars to biotics. If Bioware wanted to put all that in as magic I doubt they would have written the huge codex.

Actually flying car is even possible totays real life technology, it's just not cost effcient to use. As for Bionic in Mass Effect serie, it's same as magic. If you mean bionic like in some movies, that's more nano technology than magic.

Like I've said so many times before: I dislike the current system from both lore/believability (tons of holes) and gameplay (simply an inferior copy) view. The video listed above has a system that could be good for both (although it would still leave us with worse technology than ME1 had, but what's done is done)

I don't really care how it's done as long it's not unlimited ammos, because that's idiotic. I do get what you say, I just don't fully agree with you. As for changing clips or over heat from rate of fire, it has ZERO affect to anything. They both cause same effect in gameplay and both of them are 100% useless. Both exist only for sake of impression. As for Video, I don't care as long there is limits in ammos.

[Evil_Weasel]

casedawgz wrote...


You DON'T have to manage them though. By the time you get 3/4 through the game you're shooting forever, with no loss to accuracy through upgrades. Its utterly gamebreaking. It's like if there was an "infinite thermal clips" upgrade in ME2. You'd just shoot the mattock forever and the game would be ruined.

Man I am so tired of telling people this, no one wants the endless bullet spam and 100% accuracy from assualt rifles, it was unbalanced. We want guns that over heat if fired too long. We want guns that work like they did up to the first half of the game, befor Spectre Master gear was obtained with double frictionless matireals were added with polonium 7 rounds.

That was unbalancde, no one wants that, get it through your thick skulls, we want the guns to over heat after fireing for a couple seconds. Also, if we can fire a lot, so can the enimies. We dont want a switch fliped and have the game as is now with no reloading and have the ability to

"JUST SHOOT THE MATTOCK FOREVER"

that is not it, we want a balanced game, with guns that dont need to be fed clips or they quit working the second you run out. Stop useing hyperbole it just makes you look like an idot. If you really think thats what people are saying and your not being an ass, then you are an idot.

Most people are in favor of the hybrid system from this video

William Adama wrote...

Watch this video, I like this idea alot for the next game:

I am in favor of this idea, I like it, it will make many of us happy, in fact if it were a mod I would use it and enjoy the game more. Now please stop assumeing we want to carry around an automatic weapon with the fire rate of a water hose and imagine like us that we want something more akin to how the base assualt rifle in ME1 worked at level 1.

Modifié par Evil_Weasel, 10 octobre 2010 - 05:56 .