528 réponses à ce sujet

[Lumikki]

There was multible differences. Okey lets bring them up.

1. Weapons usefullness when player got it.
- In ME1 having weapon wasn't enough, you also needed skill to use it, what sometimes did not come fast, could even take half the game to get it.
- In ME2 when you got the weapon it was ready to be used 100% ways.

2. Weapons shooting distances
- In ME1 you could shoot with pistol enemies what where so far you could not even see. There was not many distance related limits.
- In ME2 weapons has they effective distance what drops very fast if you go longer than you weapon should be. Meaning pistol for sniping doesn't work that well, because your ability hit targets what are far drops fast.

3. Ability continue shooting without break
- In ME1 when you got Specter weapon and cooldown mods, you could shootting with weapon forever without any break.
- In ME2 you can't shoot weapon forever, because you will run out of ammos, some weapon faster than others, but all of them has limits.

4. Feel of weapons
 - In ME1 if you got two same kind of weapons, they feeled pretty same. Meaning two pistol was pretty much same pistol.
- In ME2 how ever, there is difference between weapons you have. You can actually feel the differences by using them.

Modifié par Lumikki, 25 septembre 2010 - 08:32 .

[sinosleep]

Quething wrote...

Ah, but that's exactly the point. The current gameplay setup could be achieved within the original system, and in fact did exist within the old system during certain portions of the game.* Therefore, removing the original system was unnecessary. Unnecessary + damaging to the lore = bad.

That my be your overarching point, that they didn't need to remove the system, but to claim that that there is no difference makes no sense. Even if it's only as a side effect of thermal clips, the biggest difference is no infinite clip weapons. And that difference is HUGE being as it prevents the let me run around the room holding down fire for entire battles because, well, why not strategy.

[Quething]

Lumikki wrote...

There was multible differences. Okey lets bring them up.

1. Weapons usefullness when player got it.
- In ME1 having weapon wasn't enough, you also needed skill to use it, what sometimes did not come fast, could even take half the game to get it.
- In ME2 when you got the weapon it was ready to be used 100% ways.

2. Weapons shooting distances
- In ME1 you could shoot with pistol enemies what where so far you could not even see. There was not many distance related limits.
- In ME2 weapons has they effective distance what drops very fast if you go longer than you weapon should be. Meaning pistol for sniping doesn't work that well, because your ability hit targets what are far drops fast.

3. Ability continue shooting without break
- In ME1 when you got Specter weapon and cooldown mods, you could shootting with weapon forever without any break.
- In ME2 you can't shoot weapon forever, because you will run out of ammos, some weapon faster than others, but all of them has limits.

4. Feel of weapons
 - In ME1 if you got two same kind of weapons, they feeled pretty same. Meaning two pistol was pretty much same pistol.
- In ME2 how ever, there is difference between weapons you have. You can actually feel the differences by using them.

Exactly none of these points has anything to do with the question at hand (heat sinks vs thermal clips). The closest you come is with #3, but that was a function of Frictionless Mats, not the heat system itself, and is thus still irrelevant to the question of the thermal clip system's necessity (or rather lack thereof).

sinosleep said...

That my be your overarching point, that they didn't need to remove the system, but to claim that that there is no difference makes no sense. Even if it's only as a side effect of thermal clips, the biggest difference is no infinite clip weapons. And that difference is HUGE being as it prevents the let me run around the room holding down fire for entire battles because, well, why not strategy.

But there really is no difference. The infinite firing you're talking about had nothing to do with the heat system, it was a function of a couple unbalanced weapon mods that you don't get until 80% of the way into the game. You can't run around holding the trigger all the time in ME1 any more than you can in ME2 unless you play ME1 exclusively NG+.

Modifié par Quething, 25 septembre 2010 - 09:04 .

[termokanden]

I also have to ask, who actually modded their weapons to fire indefinitely?



I thought it was in fact popular to mod weapons so they would do a lot of damage but overheat without abilities like Marksman or Overkill. And in the case of sniper rifles, I just modded mine to ALWAYS overheat.



But yeah weapons firing indefinitely was a fault of the unbalanced mod system, and one that could easily be fixed.

[Kusy]

Lumikki wrote...
1. Weapons usefullness when player got it.
- In ME1 having weapon wasn't enough, you also needed skill to use it, what sometimes did not come fast, could even take half the game to get it.
- In ME2 when you got the weapon it was ready to be used 100% ways.

I don't consider this a bad thing... maybee it's less newbie friendly but also more rewarding.

Lumikki wrote...
2. Weapons shooting distances
- In ME1 you could shoot with pistol enemies what where so far you could not even see. There was not many distance related limits.
- In ME2 weapons has they effective distance what drops very fast if you go longer than you weapon should be. Meaning pistol for sniping doesn't work that well, because your ability hit targets what are far drops fast.

Lorewise being able to snipe an enemy with a pistol makes perfect sense... all the weapons have mass effect generators acelerating bullets abstract speeds.

Lumikki wrote...
3. Ability continue shooting without break
- In ME1 when you got Specter weapon and cooldown mods, you could shootting with weapon forever without any break.
- In ME2 you can't shoot weapon forever, because you will run out of ammos, some weapon faster than others, but all of them has limits.

If I remember right you had to be really high level to do this, usualy they were unlocked in the second playthrough and I don't see any harm in rewarding getting that far and they were spectre gear.

Lumikki wrote...
4. Feel of weapons
 - In ME1 if you got two same kind of weapons, they feeled pretty same. Meaning two pistol was pretty much same pistol.
- In ME2 how ever, there is difference between weapons you have. You can actually feel the differences by using them.

Here I agree in 100%

termokanden wrote...
I thought it was in fact popular to mod weapons so they would do a lot of damage but overheat without abilities like Marksman or Overkill. And in the case of sniper rifles, I just modded mine to ALWAYS overheat.

I allways moded my sniper rifle with the high explosive rounds. It's like a walking MAKO artillery.

Modifié par Mr.Kusy, 25 septembre 2010 - 10:10 .

[sinosleep]

Mr.Kusy wrote...

I don't consider this a bad thing... maybee it's less newbie friendly but also more rewarding.

It drove me bat**** crazy more for lore reasons than for gameplay reasons. Even before the game begins Shepard is an extremely accomplished special operations soldier. Applying the starts weak and becomes strong rpg archetype to the gunplay makes no sense whatsoever. I mean, I wasn't anything remotely resembling a special ops soldier, but I was qualified in an m16, an m249, the 50 cal machine gun, and m203 grenade launcher attachment while being familiar with although not officially qualified for using shotguns and Mk 19 semi automatic grenade launcher. And that was working in communications for crying out loud. So lvl 1 shep being a HORRENDOUS shot totally took me out of the game. If you had started out as a fresh recruit it wouldn't have been so jarring, but Shep is a highly decorated, experienced, spec ops killing machine at lvl 1.

Modifié par sinosleep, 25 septembre 2010 - 10:21 .

[Kusy]

sinosleep wrote...

Mr.Kusy wrote...

I don't consider this a bad thing... maybee it's less newbie friendly but also more rewarding.

It drove me bat**** crazy more for lore reasons than for gameplay reasons. Even before the game begins Shepard is an extremely accomplished special operations soldier. Applying the starts weak and becomes strong rpg archetype to the gunplay makes no sense whatsoever. I mean, I wasn't anything remotely resembling a special ops soldier, but I was qualified in an m16, an m249, the 50 cal machine gun, and m203 grenade launcher attachment while being familiar with although not officially qualified for using shotguns and Mk 19 semi automatic grenade launcher. And that was working in communications for crying out loud. So lvl 1 shep being a HORRENDOUS shot totally took me out of the game. If you had started out as a fresh recruit it wouldn't have been so jarring, but Shep is a highly decorated, experienced, spec ops killing machine at lvl 1.

true... never looked at it that way.

[sinosleep]

Quething wrote...

But there really is no difference. The infinite firing you're talking about had nothing to do with the heat system, it was a function of a couple unbalanced weapon mods that you don't get until 80% of the way into the game. You can't run around holding the trigger all the time in ME1 any more than you can in ME2 unless you play ME1 exclusively NG+.

That's not exactly true. Spectre gear can be bought from the store from lvl 1 so long as you have at least one complete playthrough of mass effect under your belt. I just did some testing with my lvl 4 infiltrator I just started (felt nostalgic and wanted to see if the overheating was as bad as I remembered it) and even at that point with only lvl 1 marksmen I got off an obscene number of shots without overheating on my pistol. And that was with the junk gear I picked up on Eden Prime. I filmed it and will upload to youtube later when I have enough money to actually buy the spectre gear.

Modifié par sinosleep, 25 septembre 2010 - 11:31 .

[Iosev]

Quething wrote...

But there really is no difference. The infinite firing you're talking about had nothing to do with the heat system, it was a function of a couple unbalanced weapon mods that you don't get until 80% of the way into the game. You can't run around holding the trigger all the time in ME1 any more than you can in ME2 unless you play ME1 exclusively NG+.

Here's an example showing the difference between the overheat system and the limited ammo system.  In the first game, there was very little consequence for missing a shot with a sniper rifle.  If you did miss, then all you had to do was wait a second or two for your weapon to cool and then shoot again.  Having no major consequence for missing simply takes away the fun from shooting with a sniper rifle.

In Mass Effect 2, you have limited ammunition, so when you use a sniper rifle, you have to make each shot count.  This creates more tension when you're aiming, because you'll eventually run out of ammunition if you keep on missing.  You can still pick up more ammunition if you run low, but at least you'll have to move from your cover (and thus possibly putting yourself in danger) to do so, whereas in the first game, you really don't need to do that at all.

Notice that I haven't talked about unbalanced weapon mods at all in this particular example.

[Quething]

arcelonious wrote...

Here's an example showing the difference between the overheat system and the limited ammo system.  In the first game, there was very little consequence for missing a shot with a sniper rifle.  If you did miss, then all you had to do was wait a second or two for your weapon to cool and then shoot again.  Having no major consequence for missing simply takes away the fun from shooting with a sniper rifle.

In Mass Effect 2, you have limited ammunition, so when you use a sniper rifle, you have to make each shot count.  This creates more tension when you're aiming, because you'll eventually run out of ammunition if you keep on missing.  You can still pick up more ammunition if you run low, but at least you'll have to move from your cover (and thus possibly putting yourself in danger) to do so, whereas in the first game, you really don't need to do that at all.

Notice that I haven't talked about unbalanced weapon mods at all in this particular example.

That's fair. Encouraging players to be twitch gamers or, indeed, to aim at all, was certainly not a factor on any level of ME1's game design (ever put Aim Assist on the highest setting? It's hilarious, your target barely even has to be on screen), and obviously it's a big part of ME2. It's not something I particularly prioritize or even think about - I have good aim anyway, and given this is an RPG-hybrid game with tactical pause, I don't particularly mind not penalizing people who don't with anything worse than wasting their time (which can, itself, be a major penalty in a pitched enough battle) - but if that's a gameplay element that's desirable for you, I cede that thermal clips do facilitate that while overheat doesn't.

sinosleep wrote...

That's not exactly true. Spectre gear can be bought from the store from lvl 1 so long as you have at least one complete playthrough of mass effect under your belt. I just did some testing with my lvl 4 infiltrator I just started (felt nostalgic and  wanted to see if the overheating was as bad as I remembered it) and even at that point with only lvl 1 marksmen I got off an obscene number of shots without overheating on my pistol. And that was with the junk gear I picked up on Eden Prime. I filmed it and will upload to youtube later when I have enough money to actually buy the spectre gear.

Well, that's what Marksman is for. ME2 doesn't have that, either. And you can't really spam it at level 4, not even if you're a soldier or vanguard with AR. (That pistol Cole gives you isn't exactly junk, either, you won't see better drop until you're well off the Citadel.)

augh dammit why is formatting such a nightmare on this forum

Modifié par Quething, 26 septembre 2010 - 12:38 .

[Bryy_Miller]

Dr. Megaverse wrote...

archurban wrote...

unlimited? do you want just damn shooting spree? it's not fun at all. realistic or not, limited ammo gives you more strategy, and the way of survival as a plan. I guess that you don't want to think nothing at all during playing a game, huh? so I guess that you can't play metro 2033 because you feel always very limited ammo. it's not just for mass effect 2. it is applied to the whole first person shooter game as well. it's strategy, and way you have to play.

Predictable.

Did you forgest the heat penalty and the loss of accuracy?  Those are both things you have to manage.  As a matter of fact I don't remember the last time I PERSONALLY shot my weapon all the way to overheat, except maybe a sniper rifle.  So I'm not standing around washing the walls with bullets, and your assumption that I am just goes to show that you'd really rather spend time insulting someone you don't know, that taking place in a constructive discussion.

You will henceforth be ignored.  <_<

Wow.

You're kind of rude, you know?

[Epic777]

 I dub this thread hence forth "Disappointment With Mass Effect 2? An Open Discussion:The 2nd round":whistle:

[Computer_God91]

I want unlimited ammo back for ME3. ammo sucked

[Urazz]

Personally, I prefer a combination of ME2's ammo system with an ammo regeneration system. Basically, you carry a set amount of heat sinks for that weapon and reload like you do in ME2 but the heat sinks you use end up cooling off and become available again, thus you regen ammo. Heat sink cooldowns could be something like a minute long or longer so you don't have infinite ammo like you did in ME1 with the old heat sink system.

[Terror_K]

Why don't they just provide two options: Thermal clips on (with limited "ammo") or thermal clips off (and the weapon overheats ME1 style). Then the player can choose to play whichever way they prefer.



And please... nobody say that it would go against the new lore, because the new lore was beyond retarded, made no sense and was filled with more holes than moth-eaten net curtains.

[tempAE0F]

I prefer limited ammo, it's more challenging. Now I don't just put upgrades on my Pistol and keep firing without much limitation.

The combat overall is more better with the changes and balances and without immunity spamming for the enemies.

Modifié par tempAE0F, 26 septembre 2010 - 04:44 .

[sinosleep]

Terror_K wrote...

Why don't they just provide two options: Thermal clips on (with limited "ammo") or thermal clips off (and the weapon overheats ME1 style). Then the player can choose to play whichever way they prefer.

And please... nobody say that it would go against the new lore, because the new lore was beyond retarded, made no sense and was filled with more holes than moth-eaten net curtains.

Becuase when have you ever seen any game offer a setting like that for something that's as big a part of the game as the ammo system? They would have to balance the game twice over just to appease both sides, no way is that going to happen.

[Spazmodian]

Preferred ME1 weapons over ME2 weapons.



So long as BW allows me to mod the weapons to fix their errors then they can give the rest of you who don't mod muskets for all I care.

[kalle90]

termokanden wrote...

I also have to ask, who actually modded their weapons to fire indefinitely?

Valid point too. Usually I try to make some weapons super powerful but prone to overheating while others are made to not overheat.

Some people here say ME2 actually had different weapons unlike ME1 but with mods you could do almost the same. A hand cannon pistol or practically a SMG pistol, Viper or Mantis snipers etc.

It seems certain people always go for certain mods, but that's a problem with unbalanced mods

[Phaelducan]

I prefer ME2 to ME1 with one major exception (gripe). If the principle of the thermal clips is to vent heat, then EVERY single gun should slowly regenerate ammo capacity to at least one clip as it sits idle and cools down.



It's absurd for the weapons to start cold.... use all the thermal venting clips as it heats up... then permanently stay hot. Once my Carnifex goes click and I'm out of thermals, if I stop using it entirely for the rest of the fight it should regenerate "ammo" back up to at least the one clip full.

[Terror_K]

Phaelducan wrote...

I prefer ME2 to ME1 with one major exception (gripe). If the principle of the thermal clips is to vent heat, then EVERY single gun should slowly regenerate ammo capacity to at least one clip as it sits idle and cools down.

It's absurd for the weapons to start cold.... use all the thermal venting clips as it heats up... then permanently stay hot. Once my Carnifex goes click and I'm out of thermals, if I stop using it entirely for the rest of the fight it should regenerate "ammo" back up to at least the one clip full.

It's never really properly explained, but I assumed the thermal clips became useless because they were getting warped and actually damaged by the heat. But then as soon as you find one thing wrong with the concept of the thermal clips, the whole thing just becomes a massive domino effect until you realise that it's best to just try and ignore it.

[Vena_86]

Just make it optional if you want to wait for the heat to wear off or quickly change the heat sink. ME has the lore to support that kind of gameplay freedome (unlike other shooters). There is nothing that speaks against it, other than casual gamers beeing scared of having options to think about during gameplay. Moreover, it would eliminate the rediculous problem of running out of ammo completely and add another layer of strategic thinking.

And ofcourse, there also has to be a minimal restock on ammo when you get back to your ship/base. Going on a mission without firepower and having to collect it from enemies first is just unsatisfactory.

[DRSH]

You guys know that you can edit the coalesced.ini for infinite ammo, or you can add more magazines to your weapons via coalesced.ini. Returning to ME1's reloading system really has no point in my opinion. Every class in ME2 is very powerful even with the limited ammo... but then again ammo is everywhere in the game & running around to get it doesn't seem like stress, at least not me.

[Sidney]

Terror_K wrote...

Why don't they just provide two options: Thermal clips on (with limited "ammo") or thermal clips off (and the weapon overheats ME1 style). Then the player can choose to play whichever way they prefer.

And please... nobody say that it would go against the new lore, because the new lore was beyond retarded, made no sense and was filled with more holes than moth-eaten net curtains.

Because the heat sinks, holes and all, are better in terms of logic and in terms of gameplay and the lore to explain them makes perfect sense. A higher rate of fire at the point of contact is a massive edge in combat - history BTW has proven that. The USMC prior to WWII thought that their bolt action rifles were better because it forced guys to "aim" and what not but go figure just cranking rounds off with a semi-auto rifle was the best option in actual combat. The only edge to the overheat method is that it makes resupplying war awfully easy but worries about having to tote about too much ammo always lose to arguments more firepower in reality because supplying dead men doesn't matter.

[termokanden]

I know you can turn it on by editing the .ini file. However, this does not bring back the mod/overheating system.