79 réponses à ce sujet

[cruc1al]

sinosleep wrote...

I'd take this discussion to PM, being as anything reload canceling related seems to get threads locked.

Though I'd advise against Kronner to start PM'ing me about this, as I'm already PM'ing about it with you, sinosleep.

[PsyrenY]

cruc1al wrote...

Shotgun's aren't about DPS. They're about damage per shot + time taken to deal with groups of enemies safely.

I'd say you are underrating DPS here. The Scimitar has the lowest damage per shot but is still one of the fastest (THE fastest without Claymore's trick) shotguns at stripping defenses and killing enemies - your own tests proved it. Add to that the reduced time spent reloading and Scimitar pulls away from the pack.

[swn32]

cruc1al wrote...

Shotgun's aren't about DPS. They're about damage per shot + time taken to deal with groups of enemies safely. I prefer Katana with my vanguards. (Though I haven't played one with GPS). It has the perfect balance of damage, fire rate and clip size.

You should try the GPS, it functionally replaces the Katana. Thats why there is no reason to use it. It would be like using a Mantis if you have the Widow, utterly pointless
.

Modifié par swn32, 27 septembre 2010 - 03:54 .

[cruc1al]

Optimystic_X wrote...

cruc1al wrote...

Shotgun's aren't about DPS. They're about damage per shot + time taken to deal with groups of enemies safely.

I'd say you are underrating DPS here. The Scimitar has the lowest damage per shot but is still one of the fastest (THE fastest without Claymore's trick) shotguns at stripping defenses and killing enemies - your own tests proved it. Add to that the reduced time spent reloading and Scimitar pulls away from the pack.

Scimitar is the only shotgun that IS largely about DPS. Therefore, the statement "shotguns aren't about DPS" stands. Well ok, let's say "Shotguns aren't about DPS most of the time".

Also, my own test only showed it's effective against shields and barriers; it's crap against armor. And, I was testing DPS (hence the heavy target), not how good it is at killing enemies. There is almost nothing in that test that you can translate into practical things like time taken to clear an area of low-level enemies.

Modifié par cruc1al, 27 septembre 2010 - 03:51 .

[cruc1al]

swn32 wrote...

cruc1al wrote...

Shotgun's aren't about DPS. They're about damage per shot + time taken to deal with groups of enemies safely. I prefer Katana with my vanguards. (Though I haven't played one with GPS). It has the perfect balance of damage, fire rate and clip size.

You should try the GPS, it functionally replaces the Katana. Thats why there is no reason to use it. It would be like using a Mantis if you have the Widow, utterly pointless.

Yeah I know. But you were talking about Claymore being THE shotgun for Vanguard, and this thread is about whether Katana is useless. As I said, I prefer Katana > Claymore, regardless of how good GPS is.

[swn32]

cruc1al wrote...

Also, my own test only showed it's effective against shields and barriers; it's crap against armor. And, I was testing DPS (hence the heavy target), not how good it is at killing enemies. There is almost nothing in that test that you can translate into practical things like time taken to clear an area of low-level enemies.

The Schimitar isnt totally crap against armor. It still ranks above the uncharged GPS and Katana when it comes to stripping YMIR mech armors. Here take a look at this test.

[sinosleep]

When it comes to groups of low level enemies ANY shotgun in the game will clear content in short order. While they do have certain advantages over each other, those advantages are largely thrown out the window depending on what class you are using. If you are a vanguard, you'll be charging, thus in melee range all the time, thus making accuracy at range a rather meaningless advantage. Same thing applies to assault sentinels, etc, etc, etc. It's why regardless of whatever test I or anyone else might run when people ask about shotguns in general I tell them to just try them all and go with what feels best. Generally you aren't going to lose or gain much time with any of them based simply on the fact that they all do high enough damage quickly enough to dispence of standard mobs in no time and standard mobs make up the vast majority of enemies in the game. 

Modifié par sinosleep, 27 septembre 2010 - 04:00 .

[cruc1al]

swn32 wrote...

cruc1al wrote...

Also, my own test only showed it's effective against shields and barriers; it's crap against armor. And, I was testing DPS (hence the heavy target), not how good it is at killing enemies. There is almost nothing in that test that you can translate into practical things like time taken to clear an area of low-level enemies.

The Schimitar isnt totally crap against armor. It still ranks above the uncharged GPS and Katana when it comes to stripping YMIR mech armors. Here take a look at this test.

Well, crap was a pretty strong term, sure. The point of my post was that my test was against shields, while u said Scimitar was the best shotgun against defenses according to the test. Clearly, Scimitar isn't the best against armor. But yeah, it's not crap either (in terms of DPS against heavy targets).

Modifié par cruc1al, 27 septembre 2010 - 04:05 .

[PsyrenY]

cruc1al wrote...

Also, my own test only showed it's effective against shields and barriers; it's crap against armor.

What it loses on the swings, it gains on the roundabouts. It may be slower against armor, but it gets to that armor much more quickly (over a full second earlier in your vid.) Besides, only few enemies have armor + other defense anyway.

cruc1al wrote...

And, I was testing DPS (hence the heavy target), not how good it is at killing enemies. There is almost nothing in that test that you can translate into practical things like time taken to clear an area of low-level enemies.

I still disagree. Consider a Collector mission - you'll generally be dealing with swarms of baddies covered with barriers, plus one heavy target (Harbinger.) As you yourself said, big clip  = more forgiving of mistakes under pressure (you can miss a headshot or two without breaking stride) and Scimitar definitely fits that mold. Because it demolishes barriers you can generally reduce multiple Collectors to health with each clip, rendering them susceptible to biotics/freezing from squadmates, and thus much quicker deaths than a heavier shotgun can ensure.

Any of the speedruns using Scimitar demonstrate this, e.g. sinosleep's.

[swn32]

I dont remember saying Schimitar was the best for anything. It simply ranks above Katana and GPS against armor. I was talking about Claymore at short range being the best. Its the best against armor and 2nd best against shields/barriers (with the best being a charged GPS where i'm totally ignoring the charging phase).

Modifié par swn32, 27 septembre 2010 - 04:07 .

[cruc1al]

Optimystic_X wrote...

cruc1al wrote...

Also, my own test only showed it's effective against shields and barriers; it's crap against armor.

What it loses on the swings, it gains on the roundabouts. It may be slower against armor, but it gets to that armor much more quickly (over a full second earlier in your vid.) Besides, only few enemies have armor + other defense anyway.

cruc1al wrote...

And, I was testing DPS (hence the heavy target), not how good it is at killing enemies. There is almost nothing in that test that you can translate into practical things like time taken to clear an area of low-level enemies.

I still disagree. Consider a Collector mission - you'll generally be dealing with swarms of baddies covered with barriers, plus one heavy target (Harbinger.) As you yourself said, big clip  = more forgiving of mistakes under pressure (you can miss a headshot or two without breaking stride) and Scimitar definitely fits that mold. Because it demolishes barriers you can generally reduce multiple Collectors to health with each clip, rendering them susceptible to biotics/freezing from squadmates, and thus much quicker deaths than a heavier shotgun can ensure.

Any of the speedruns using Scimitar demonstrate this, e.g. sinosleep's.

Sure, it's a good shotgun and I've seen the speedruns. But that doesn't mean anything in my test indicates what you just explained. What you explained is based on wholly other tests, the results of which you wouldn't be able to predict based on my test alone.

Modifié par cruc1al, 27 septembre 2010 - 04:07 .

[OniGanon]

Why is anyone even talking about shotgun long-term DPS vs Armour? Use your damn Pistols.

[sinosleep]

OniGanon wrote...

Why is anyone even talking about shotgun long-term DPS vs Armour? Use your damn Pistols.

Upgrade priority can make weapons under-perform. My mission order is primarily based around the a) primary weapon upgrades  primary power upgrades c) hard shields d) melee upgrades . Since none of my classes use pistols as a primary weapon it's not rare for me to wind up with stuff like 4/5 shotgun and assault rifle upgrades and only 1/5 pistol upgrades. I don't think a 1/5 pistol will outdo a 4/5 shotgun.

[cruc1al]

OniGanon wrote...

Why is anyone even talking about shotgun long-term DPS vs Armour? Use your damn Pistols.

Haha, good point

[swn32]

Wait, claymore brings down armor faster than any pistol (even fully upgraded), unless you get many critical hits. I only use pistols for targets I cannot charge to, phalanx in particular.

[PsyrenY]

swn32 wrote...

I dont remember saying Schimitar was the best for anything. It simply ranks above Katana and GPS against armor. I was talking about Claymore at short range being the best. Its the best against armor and 2nd best against shields/barriers (with the best being a charged GPS where i'm totally ignoring the charging phase).

Both of those depend on outside factors:

1) The Claymore is not the best if you cannot perform the Reload trick regularly.
2) The Charged GPS, even ignoring the charging time (which hurts dps), puts you in significant danger as you cannot take cover while charging it. This is especially dangerous in areas where the majority of cover is only waist-high, e.g. collector platforms.

OniGanon wrote...

Why is anyone even talking about shotgun long-term DPS vs Armour? Use your damn Pistols.

Aside from sino's point about upgrade priority, you can also lose DPS switching out, or put yourself in danger if retreating. (Switching weapons stops sprinting.)

[swn32]

1) Reload cancelling is the easiest shotgun trick to pull off
2) Agreed

Modifié par swn32, 27 septembre 2010 - 06:04 .

[hawat333]

Sometimes, yeah.

Because... hey, why the hell not?

[OniGanon]

Actually, you can charge the GPS in low cover by turning around.



You'll be standing up the moment you turn back to face your enemies though. So you'd better aim quickly!

[mosor]

OniGanon wrote... Actually, you can charge the GPS in low cover by turning around.



You'll be standing up the moment you turn back to face your enemies though. So you'd better aim quickly!

 

Soldier's adrenaline rush solves this pretty easily:) Then again even an uncharged GPS with  heightened rush, it's a 1 shot mook killer even at relatively far range. Great if you're a widow soldier and want another 1 shot 1 kill weapon to go along with your sniper rifle.

[godlike13]

Optimystic_X wrote...

2) The Charged GPS, even ignoring the charging time (which hurts dps), puts you in significant danger as you cannot take cover while charging it. This is especially dangerous in areas where the majority of cover is only waist-high, e.g. collector platforms.

Even uncharged though the GPS is very capable. Especially in cover popping given its more accurate range. What the uncharged GPS lacks in Armor stripping against the Schimitar it make up for in barrier stripping. But it also has the ability to be charged, when safe.

[OniGanon]

Why is everyone suddenly adding an 'h' in Scimitar? >.>

[godlike13]

OniGanon wrote...

Why is everyone suddenly adding an 'h' in Scimitar? >.>

Because i could barley pronounce it, let alone spell it <_<

[cruc1al]

Barley.... that might be one reason to misspell things

[godlike13]

barely*, jeez blame spell check.

Good god, whats with all the grammar police <_<

Modifié par godlike13, 27 septembre 2010 - 08:29 .