218 réponses à ce sujet

[Mike Laidlaw]

Brockololly wrote...
 From what Laidlaw has said, its still autoattack, click on the enemy and your character will continually attack. You can still pause and play. Its seemingly just that the time between clicking on the enemy your character is targeting and your character actually hitting the enemy is greatly reduced, such that they don't shuffle up to attack anymore.

Correct.

But on the consoles...it sounds sort of hack and slash-ish.

I can see how it would sound that way, but the only functional difference between the two is that you press-to-attack on console and auto-attack on PC. I don't think pressing a button to swing your sword inherently makes for a hack and slash game.

Of course, as Brock points out, often, until there's gameplay footage out there for the public to consume there is no way to tell.
I could be lying to you. About everything. Forever.

[WilliamShatner]

Brockololly wrote...

imported_beer wrote...

This is perhaps my single biggest concern in DA2. I am sure as time goes by, we will understand better the combat mechanics, but I seriously hope leveling my character well matters more than accuracy or speed or reflexes- because when the maker blessed me with abundant beauty, he took away all my coordination.

At least on the PC, it would seem it won't be a twitch fest. From what Laidlaw has said, its still autoattack, click on the enemy and your character will continually attack. You can still pause and play. Its seemingly just that the time between clicking on the enemy your character is targeting and your character actually hitting the enemy is greatly reduced, such that they don't shuffle up to attack anymore.But until we see some gameplay , who really knows for sure.

But on the consoles...it sounds sort of hack and slash-ish.

Is it not realistic to have to move close enough to your enemy to hit them?

[B3taMaxxx]

ErichHartmann wrote...

DAO took me 54 hours and ME2 34 hours (not including Overlord and Shadow Broker).

 I'm close, but sorta backwards. DA = 45hrs & ME2 = 40hrs

 Like I said, to each their own.

 

[B3taMaxxx]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...
I can see how it would sound that way, but the only functional difference between the two is that you press-to-attack on console and auto-attack on PC. I don't think pressing a button to swing your sword inherently makes for a hack and slash game.

 I know you're having trouble finding the right words, so I was feeling generous.

B3taMaxxx wrote...

 No, we just have to open menus, select a target, select auto-attack, kill the enemy, then  open the menu, select a target, select auto-attack, kill the enemy, rinse and repeat........

 It's like some kind of sick BioWare minigame.

 Still no where in my mind a "hack-n-slash". The very term means action without story.

Modifié par B3taMaxxx, 25 septembre 2010 - 01:55 .

[SafetyShattered]

WilliamShatner wrote...

B3taMaxxx wrote...

I've never played Jade either. If you do download it, hit me up and let me know whether it's 'of' quality (not the game itself but the port to 360). I've played several Xbox games on the 360 and they always seemed nerfed in a way. Colors, sound and the like don't seem to carry over well, then again it could be my memory.

Ok, enough sidebar, carry on with 'em worries.

Jade Empire is masterful.  Pound for pound, I think the companions are the very best set of companions  BioWare have created.

PS.  I am amazing at Ninja Gaiden.  

Not to brag about it or anything.

......that last thing about Ninja Gaiden was just beyond cruel.

[andar91]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

I can see how it would sound that way, but the only functional difference between the two is that you press-to-attack on console and auto-attack on PC. I don't think pressing a button to swing your sword inherently makes for a hack and slash game.

I definately agree with this.  It seems like a lot of people equate the button press to God of War or Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance style gameplay, but we've been told by those who play the demo that you can still only attack so fast since attacks still have speeds associated with the various weapon types (correct me if I'm wrong).  And I keep thinking to myself:  "Whenever I was using the normal attacks on console, what else was I doing?  Oh yeah...nothing.  So having to hit a button can only make me feel more connected to my character. 

Or so I expect.  :happy:

[SafetyShattered]

WilliamShatner wrote...

B3taMaxxx wrote...

I've never played Jade either. If you do download it, hit me up and let me know whether it's 'of' quality (not the game itself but the port to 360). I've played several Xbox games on the 360 and they always seemed nerfed in a way. Colors, sound and the like don't seem to carry over well, then again it could be my memory.

Ok, enough sidebar, carry on with 'em worries.

Jade Empire is masterful.  Pound for pound, I think the companions are the very best set of companions  BioWare have created.

PS.  I am amazing at Ninja Gaiden.  

Not to brag about it or anything.

......that last thing about Ninja Gaiden was just beyond cruel.

[SafetyShattered]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Brockololly wrote...
 From what Laidlaw has said, its still autoattack, click on the enemy and your character will continually attack. You can still pause and play. Its seemingly just that the time between clicking on the enemy your character is targeting and your character actually hitting the enemy is greatly reduced, such that they don't shuffle up to attack anymore.

Correct.

But on the consoles...it sounds sort of hack and slash-ish.

I can see how it would sound that way, but the only functional difference between the two is that you press-to-attack on console and auto-attack on PC. I don't think pressing a button to swing your sword inherently makes for a hack and slash game.

Of course, as Brock points out, often, until there's gameplay footage out there for the public to consume there is no way to tell.
I could be lying to you. About everything. Forever.

ha ha ha you guys would never lie to us......would you?

[Sylvius the Mad]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

I don't think pressing a button to swing your sword inherently makes for a hack and slash game.

I do.

Please don't ever make that mandatory.

[B3taMaxxx]

andar91 wrote...
I definately agree with this.  It seems like a lot of people equate the button press to God of War or Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance style gameplay, but we've been told by those who play the demo that you can still only attack so fast since attacks still have speeds associated with the various weapon types (correct me if I'm wrong).  And I keep thinking to myself:  "Whenever I was using the normal attacks on console, what else was I doing?  Oh yeah...nothing.  So having to hit a button can only make me feel more connected to my character. 

Or so I expect.  :happy:

 Which is no different than hitting a button on your mouse. I would just like to, at times, initiate an attack against an enemy, then let the ole auto-pilot take over for a tad (without opening the menu).

 Say, when you used a 'normal' attack on the PC...................what else were you doing?

 

Modifié par B3taMaxxx, 25 septembre 2010 - 02:06 .

[andar91]

Edit:  Sorry, post was filled with crap.

Modifié par andar91, 25 septembre 2010 - 02:08 .

[andar91]

I was staring at Zevran's ass.

Modifié par andar91, 25 septembre 2010 - 02:09 .

[Mike Laidlaw]

andar91 wrote...

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

I can see how it would sound that way, but the only functional difference between the two is that you press-to-attack on console and auto-attack on PC. I don't think pressing a button to swing your sword inherently makes for a hack and slash game.

I definately agree with this.  It seems like a lot of people equate the button press to God of War or Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance style gameplay, but we've been told by those who play the demo that you can still only attack so fast since attacks still have speeds associated with the various weapon types (correct me if I'm wrong).  And I keep thinking to myself:  "Whenever I was using the normal attacks on console, what else was I doing?  Oh yeah...nothing.  So having to hit a button can only make me feel more connected to my character. 

Or so I expect.  :happy:

I've comment on this before, but I'll note it again. I see "hack and slash" or "brawlers" or "action games" as being defined by the way you engage with combat, insofar as the idea of the "combo" is king. Dante's Inferno or Ninja Gaiden, for instance, has more than 30 combos you can pull off by pressing things like XXX, XYX, AYYXXY and so on. That is where the sense of timing, and the feeling of "mashing" buttons comes from. Though skilled players of either game will tell you it's far from a mash. Mashing is for novices.

Dragon Age, for all you you press the A or X button (Xbox and PS3 respectively) to attack does not require awareness of extensive combos. There is no concept of light attack, heavy attack, aerial attack, etc. Instead, our focus is on abilities, which you acquire through leveling up, and which you can then upgrade, and which require stamina or mana to activate. The gameplay, then is more strategic, in that you have to manage resources (Kratos and Ryu never get tired). It's also more tactical, in that you have to make equipment choices, ability choices and party-composition choices well in advance of the combat, requiring a mix of planning and of-the-moment thinking.

Sound familiar? If you're thinking "Origins," you'd be pretty close. It's just faster, and more punchy.

So, it's probably best to think of the improvements to DA's combat as focusing on pace, responsiveness and improved visualizations. I remember people ranting about how it wasn't good that the Sacred Ashes trailer showed Leliana being acrobatic when she couldn't be acrobatic in the game. Fair complaint! And as a rogue player, one I specifically set out to rectify with the help of my excellent combat team.

It seems a much smaller contingent of people are now concerned that their rogue might actually be that acrobatic.Probably out of fear that jumping must inherently mean we've fundamentally changed the game. Well, we have, but in very aesthetic ways. Hopefully the above explanation relieves some concerns.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Brockololly wrote...
 From what Laidlaw has said, its still autoattack, click on the enemy and your character will continually attack. You can still pause and play. Its seemingly just that the time between clicking on the enemy your character is targeting and your character actually hitting the enemy is greatly reduced, such that they don't shuffle up to attack anymore.

Correct.

But on the consoles...it sounds sort of hack and slash-ish.

I can see how it would sound that way, but the only functional difference between the two is that you press-to-attack on console and auto-attack on PC. I don't think pressing a button to swing your sword inherently makes for a hack and slash game.

Of course, as Brock points out, often, until there's gameplay footage out there for the public to consume there is no way to tell.
I could be lying to you. About everything. Forever.

Add me to the club that thinks forcing button presses turns the game into a button masher more often than not. Glad to see auto attack is still available.

[SafetyShattered]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

andar91 wrote...

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

I can see how it would sound that way, but the only functional difference between the two is that you press-to-attack on console and auto-attack on PC. I don't think pressing a button to swing your sword inherently makes for a hack and slash game.

I definately agree with this.  It seems like a lot of people equate the button press to God of War or Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance style gameplay, but we've been told by those who play the demo that you can still only attack so fast since attacks still have speeds associated with the various weapon types (correct me if I'm wrong).  And I keep thinking to myself:  "Whenever I was using the normal attacks on console, what else was I doing?  Oh yeah...nothing.  So having to hit a button can only make me feel more connected to my character. 

Or so I expect.  :happy:

I've comment on this before, but I'll note it again. I see "hack and slash" or "brawlers" or "action games" as being defined by the way you engage with combat, insofar as the idea of the "combo" is king. Dante's Inferno or Ninja Gaiden, for instance, has more than 30 combos you can pull off by pressing things like XXX, XYX, AYYXXY and so on. That is where the sense of timing, and the feeling of "mashing" buttons comes from. Though skilled players of either game will tell you it's far from a mash. Mashing is for novices.

Dragon Age, for all you you press the A or X button (Xbox and PS3 respectively) to attack does not require awareness of extensive combos. There is no concept of light attack, heavy attack, aerial attack, etc. Instead, our focus is on abilities, which you acquire through leveling up, and which you can then upgrade, and which require stamina or mana to activate. The gameplay, then is more strategic, in that you have to manage resources (Kratos and Ryu never get tired). It's also more tactical, in that you have to make equipment choices, ability choices and party-composition choices well in advance of the combat, requiring a mix of planning and of-the-moment thinking.

Sound familiar? If you're thinking "Origins," you'd be pretty close. It's just faster, and more punchy.

So, it's probably best to think of the improvements to DA's combat as focusing on pace, responsiveness and improved visualizations. I remember people ranting about how it wasn't good that the Sacred Ashes trailer showed Leliana being acrobatic when she couldn't be acrobatic in the game. Fair complaint! And as a rogue player, one I specifically set out to rectify with the help of my excellent combat team.

It seems a much smaller contingent of people are now concerned that their rogue might actually be that acrobatic.Probably out of fear that jumping must inherently mean we've fundamentally changed the game. Well, we have, but in very aesthetic ways. Hopefully the above explanation relieves some concerns.

Thank you very much, I feel much better. Honestly if DA2 combat was like Ninja Gaiden I would cry myself to sleep. Thanks very much Mike Laidaw!

[Brockololly]

Well, I'm just happy autoattack is still on PC as default. I'm curious to see how the combat goes in DA2, as playing through Origins recently and now going through Awakening again, it definitely has its flaws.

For instance, the battle of Denerim at the gates when you're fighting the one hit kill darkspawn. It was just quite annoying when you'd have a melee warrior or rogue target a darkspawn, have your guy start jogging to get in for the kill, only to have the genlock shuffle on by. This leads your warrior/rogue to give chase, running after the guy all over the map- the only thing missing was the Benny Hill music.

So if the more responsive combat means less chasing, I guess that sounds good. But on the flip side, how does it work if I pause, right click an enemy thats far away with my 2 handed warrior to attack, and then unpause? Obviously things are supposed to be "press button and somthing awesome happens." So does that mean when I unpause after clicking on an enemy to attack, Hawke will do some crazy anime style leap across the map so that he can attack the enemy instantly?

Basically, the the attacking character still needs to get in close for a melee attack, so will they just be running full steam, barrelling over guys or doing flips and stuff towards the target instead of shuffling? I just worry that some of the animations will be over the top and goofy looking to get the character in close fast- for being a fairly grounded fantasy world, I just hate how DAO had ridiculous weapons like daggers more like swords and two handers the size of a large child. I'd just hate to see the animations go comically over the top now.

I guess its just one those things I'd need to see in action to make sense of.

[Mike Laidlaw]

Brockololly wrote...

So if the more responsive combat means less chasing, I guess that sounds good. But on the flip side, how does it work if I pause, right click an enemy thats far away with my 2 handed warrior to attack, and then unpause? Obviously things are supposed to be "press button and somthing awesome happens." So does that mean when I unpause after clicking on an enemy to attack, Hawke will do some crazy anime style leap across the map so that he can attack the enemy instantly?

No, presuming you're playing on PC, or issuing it as an order via radial menu, your character will run towards the foe until they reach a point close enough to do what we call a closing attack. In the case of a two-handed sword, this is a fast dash forward, coupled with a slash of the blade. This closing attack will put you into basic melee range, which means you may either atack, or start using your talents. Your call.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

So if the more responsive combat means less chasing, I guess that sounds good. But on the flip side, how does it work if I pause, right click an enemy thats far away with my 2 handed warrior to attack, and then unpause? Obviously things are supposed to be "press button and somthing awesome happens." So does that mean when I unpause after clicking on an enemy to attack, Hawke will do some crazy anime style leap across the map so that he can attack the enemy instantly?

No, presuming you're playing on PC, or issuing it as an order via radial menu, your character will run towards the foe until they reach a point close enough to do what we call a closing attack. In the case of a two-handed sword, this is a fast dash forward, coupled with a slash of the blade. This closing attack will put you into basic melee range, which means you may either atack, or start using your talents. Your call.

So how will that work on consoles?

[Brockololly]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...
No, presuming you're playing on PC, or issuing it as an order via radial menu, your character will run towards the foe until they reach a point close enough to do what we call a closing attack. In the case of a two-handed sword, this is a fast dash forward, coupled with a slash of the blade. This closing attack will put you into basic melee range, which means you may either atack, or start using your talents. Your call.

Ok, so basically after right clicking a far away enemy,  the warrior would chug along until they get to a certain point around the targeted enemy at which point they'd speed up and use their closing attack. At which point when that closing attack is through they're in range to do whatever- regular attacks, abilities and so on. Sounds like.... Origins, just quicker!

So, would I be incorrect to guess that each class has a unique "closing attack"? Like the 2 hander charges like you said or maybe the sword and board sort of does an Awakening style Juggernaut closing move or rogues do something suitably sneaky or ninja like?

I think gameplay videos would be much easier than typing out explanations though;)

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
So how will that work on consoles?

Well, it sounds like on consoles if you pause and use the radial menu to target it plays out like above. But I believe one of the buttons on the consoles is mapped for the basic attack, so basically you press it and the character swings- and in the case of a 2hander, all basic attacks do AOE damage in a 120 degree arc or something similar, if I remember right from Peter Thomas' thread from a while ago. Then on console you can use the sticks to quickly switch targets or something....I think I remember Mike mentioning that somewhere not too long ago....

It really stinks not having DA Central to sort through the dev posts....

Modifié par Brockololly, 25 septembre 2010 - 03:59 .

[HoonDing]

Brockololly wrote...

Ok, so basically after right clicking a far away enemy,  the warrior would chug along until they get to a certain point around the targeted enemy at which point they'd speed up and use their closing attack. At which point when that closing attack is through they're in range to do whatever- regular attacks, abilities and so on.

Let's hope there will be attacks of opportunity in the game, then. In DA:O, if you did what you described above, your characters would pass unhindered through scores of melee enemies. For the same, enemies could also pass unhindered through your frontline to bash your mage.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Brockololly wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
So how will that work on consoles?

Well, it sounds like on consoles if you pause and use the radial menu to target it plays out like above. But I believe one of the buttons on the consoles is mapped for the basic attack, so basically you press it and the character swings- and in the case of a 2hander, all basic attacks do AOE damage in a 120 degree arc or something similar, if I remember right from Peter Thomas' thread from a while ago. Then on console you can use the sticks to quickly switch targets or something....I think I remember Mike mentioning that somewhere not too long ago....

It really stinks not having DA Central to sort through the dev posts....

I see.

Yea we need a video asap.

[Fishy]

It's more like you run close to your ennemie and you perform Super Magical Axe attack .. Super magical axe attack happens immediatly and you lose stamina.

But can Super magicial axe attack be blocked , evaded or parried?

Unlike Origins where super magical axe attack won't happens.Because your character had to get into *Position*.
So in origins you come close to your opponent and you perform super shield bash but than your character start dancing around the darkspawn because he need to get into position..

In origins you could not realy move when using abilities.The Ai was controling your character.
So when you was running to a darkspawn and used super magical axe attack nothing happenned because you was moving and it's auto-canceled the attack.

Modifié par Suprez30, 25 septembre 2010 - 04:11 .

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

So if the more responsive combat means less chasing, I guess that sounds good. But on the flip side, how does it work if I pause, right click an enemy thats far away with my 2 handed warrior to attack, and then unpause? Obviously things are supposed to be "press button and somthing awesome happens." So does that mean when I unpause after clicking on an enemy to attack, Hawke will do some crazy anime style leap across the map so that he can attack the enemy instantly?

No, presuming you're playing on PC, or issuing it as an order via radial menu, your character will run towards the foe until they reach a point close enough to do what we call a closing attack. In the case of a two-handed sword, this is a fast dash forward, coupled with a slash of the blade. This closing attack will put you into basic melee range, which means you may either atack, or start using your talents. Your call.

That actually doesn't sound terrible. Thanks for the detailed info Mike.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Sound familiar? If you're thinking "Origins," you'd be pretty close. It's just faster, and more punchy.

So the characters now move at unrealistic speeds?

It seems a much smaller contingent of people are now concerned that their rogue might actually be that acrobatic.

The level of acrobatics in the Sacred Ashes trailer (which I never watched until after I'vd finished DAO for fear of spoilers) was incredibly silly.

That is where the sense of timing, and the feeling of "mashing" buttons comes from.

that sense of timing also needs to be avoided.  That sense of timing was why I uninstalled The Witcher after 10 minutes of play.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 25 septembre 2010 - 04:54 .

[Mike Laidlaw]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Sound familiar? If you're thinking "Origins," you'd be pretty close. It's just faster, and more punchy.

So the characters now move at unrealistic speeds?

It seems a much smaller contingent of people are now concerned that their rogue might actually be that acrobatic.

The level of acrobatics in the Sacred Ashes trailer (which I never watched until after I'vd finished DAO for fear of spoilers) was incredibly silly.

That is where the sense of timing, and the feeling of "mashing" buttons comes from.

that sense of timing also needs to be avoided.  That sense of timing was why I uninstalled The Witcher after 10 minutes of play.

Sylv, let's be honest here, buddy. From what I can tell, you're not going to like a lot about DA2. There's lots you might like, but your rigidly-defined standards of what game I should be making are wildly divergent from the game I am making. And you know? I'm pretty damn sure neither one of us is budging.

Not to say the game you want to play wouldn't be good. It might. I have copies of some classic RPGs on a shelf 10 feet from me that suggests I have as much a taste for the old school as you do, but that's not the game I'm making.

So lets just agree to disagree and we can all get along. Or, I suppose, you can wander in and type snarky one-liners if that makes you happy. Free forum!