218 réponses à ce sujet

[Burdokva]

Will there be an option to slow down combat? Or alternatively, slow down game time outside conversations. I know it may sound crazy, but I'm one of those who are not looking forward to the fast-paced combat style. Shooters, sure, but I prefer taking my time with RPGs. They are the type of game I like to play for escapism and relaxation when I'm tired.



Even an option to somehow slow things down so I don't have to be constantly focused on the game would be appreciated.



Second, any plans for fixing archery? It seems to be "broken", in a sense, in all games involving melee. Archers are the weakest class (or specialization, it's irrelevant what you call it) even when properly leveled; it just feels week. Seeing all those descriptions of swords ripping enemies apart and spells blasting away has me somewhat concerned that archery will be even weaker. I'd appreciate some light shed on this - so far I haven't seen anything mentioned on the subject.

[Brockololly]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Honestly Mike, if you could just assure the PC folk that the PC version won't be too far a stretch from Origins and won't feel "consolized" like alot of past cross platform titles where the PC isn't the lead sku (Oblivion comes instantly to mind) I know it would set my mind at ease at least.

*Chuckles* I'm running out of ways to try. I'll give it one more shot:

• PC gets its own GUI
• PC gets its own interface (right click to attack = auto attack, not pressing repeatedly)
• PC drags and drops in stores and inventory, or double clicks to do things. No faux menubuttonthing

I'm not sure what else to say. It's a custom interface for PC, and custom interface for consoles, both are similar to the interfaces we rolled out in Origins. Why? Because people liked them.

As to how it feels in terms of stretching away from Origins? That's kind of a personal thing. The player VO is a sticking point for some. Not being the warden is a sticking point for others. Hearing that the combat is faster is a sticking point for still more. So will it be different? Yep.

Do I think it still feels like I'm playing a Dragon Age game when I slap spacebar to pause and line up a fireball with Bethany because Hawke just stunned a bunch of guys in a cluster? Hell yes.

Good to hear.

As a PC gamer, I'm just weary of the PC version for DA2 given that it seems consoles are the focus this time around. And I've played far too many multiplatform games where simple things are overlooked on the PC version that while they might not break the game, make it clear to the player you're playing a console port.

Stuff like in ME2 for PC- not having any hotkeys to pull up the journal but instead having to escape out and navigate menus to get there. Or when reading journals or other things, not being able to scroll using the mouse wheel. Or having huge 360 style popups on the screen to alert you of things. Or having the graphics settings severely simplified in terms of customizing and tweaking.

I just want the PC version of DA2 to feel like it was designed and built to play to the strengths of the PC and not that it was held back by the hardware/interface limitations of the consoles- As great as the ME games are, they feel like console games when played on the PC- Origins was a nice return to a PC-centric BioWare title where it "felt" like a built from the ground up PC title, with all the limitations and stregths of the PC in mind.

Modifié par Brockololly, 25 septembre 2010 - 01:48 .

[AlanC9]

Burdokva wrote...
Archers are the weakest class (or specialization, it's irrelevant what you call it) even when properly leveled; it just feels weak.  

Have you actually run the numbers on that? When I levelled Leliana as a pure archer she threw plenty of DPS..

[SirShreK]

AlanC9 wrote...

Burdokva wrote...
Archers are the weakest class (or specialization, it's irrelevant what you call it) even when properly leveled; it just feels weak.  

Have you actually run the numbers on that? When I levelled Leliana as a pure archer she threw plenty of DPS..

That is right. Leliana when lelveled as a pure archer can wreck HAVOC with the scatter-shot ability....

In fact pure dex pump archers are the highest DPS builds in DA:O (assuming they manage to stay clear of melee or magic).

[Burdokva]

I did put italic on feels. Maybe you're right, as I've often had problems leveling rogue characters and such, but it just doesn't give that sense of strength or mayhem a warrior or mage can, respectively.

[B3taMaxxx]

slimgrin wrote...

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

but the only functional difference between the two is that you press-to-attack on console and auto-attack on PC.

If you 'press to attack' then that does make it twitch-based, does it not? In fact, I personally wouldn't mind this and was hoping the pc version would have both options: press to attack and auto attack.

 You say equality? Laidlaw laughs........

 I to would like to have both features. Perhaps if given the choice they feel it will confuse us consolized folk.

[AlanC9]

Burdokva wrote...

I did put italic on feels. Maybe you're right, as I've often had problems leveling rogue characters and such, but it just doesn't give that sense of strength or mayhem a warrior or mage can, respectively.

Yeah, that's what I was getting at. If the actual numbers are OK, I don't know how they're supposed to fix your feeling.

[fchopin]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

andar91 wrote...

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

I can see how it would sound that way, but the only functional difference between the two is that you press-to-attack on console and auto-attack on PC. I don't think pressing a button to swing your sword inherently makes for a hack and slash game.

I definately agree with this.  It seems like a lot of people equate the button press to God of War or Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance style gameplay, but we've been told by those who play the demo that you can still only attack so fast since attacks still have speeds associated with the various weapon types (correct me if I'm wrong).  And I keep thinking to myself:  "Whenever I was using the normal attacks on console, what else was I doing?  Oh yeah...nothing.  So having to hit a button can only make me feel more connected to my character. 

Or so I expect.  :happy:

I've comment on this before, but I'll note it again. I see "hack and slash" or "brawlers" or "action games" as being defined by the way you engage with combat, insofar as the idea of the "combo" is king. Dante's Inferno or Ninja Gaiden, for instance, has more than 30 combos you can pull off by pressing things like XXX, XYX, AYYXXY and so on. That is where the sense of timing, and the feeling of "mashing" buttons comes from. Though skilled players of either game will tell you it's far from a mash. Mashing is for novices.

Dragon Age, for all you you press the A or X button (Xbox and PS3 respectively) to attack does not require awareness of extensive combos. There is no concept of light attack, heavy attack, aerial attack, etc. Instead, our focus is on abilities, which you acquire through leveling up, and which you can then upgrade, and which require stamina or mana to activate. The gameplay, then is more strategic, in that you have to manage resources (Kratos and Ryu never get tired). It's also more tactical, in that you have to make equipment choices, ability choices and party-composition choices well in advance of the combat, requiring a mix of planning and of-the-moment thinking.

Sound familiar? If you're thinking "Origins," you'd be pretty close. It's just faster, and more punchy.

So, it's probably best to think of the improvements to DA's combat as focusing on pace, responsiveness and improved visualizations. I remember people ranting about how it wasn't good that the Sacred Ashes trailer showed Leliana being acrobatic when she couldn't be acrobatic in the game. Fair complaint! And as a rogue player, one I specifically set out to rectify with the help of my excellent combat team.

It seems a much smaller contingent of people are now concerned that their rogue might actually be that acrobatic.Probably out of fear that jumping must inherently mean we've fundamentally changed the game. Well, we have, but in very aesthetic ways. Hopefully the above explanation relieves some concerns.

Thank you for the explanation.
 
It looks like i will like playing as a rogue as long as the game is non linear.

[RPGmom28]

I hate consoles. My daughter has an XBOX 360, and I never, ever use it. All of my Bioware goodies are on the PC.

I see I'm not the only one who puts up with combat sometimes to get to the dialogue, exploration and story. As long as the combat is intuitive, should be ok.

[Mike Laidlaw]

slimgrin wrote...

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

but the only functional difference between the two is that you press-to-attack on console and auto-attack on PC.

If you 'press to attack' then that does make it twitch-based, does it not? In fact, I personally wouldn't mind this and was hoping the pc version would have both options: press to attack and auto attack.

Not by my definition of a "twitch" game. As far as I'm concerned, to be a twitch game the game must have events that require exacting timing. Our enemies don't block and then drop their guard so you have to attack exactly within that 3-5 frame span of animation. You don't counterattack after a parry like in Demon's Souls. You don't roll to the side to dodge projectiles like in Zelda or God of War.

Instead, you equip better armor, manage your sustained abilities and heal your party with potions or spells. The addition of push to attack makes targeting work better on the consoles, as I explained in another thread in some detail. I believe it's linked off Occam's "what do we know" post, under the link to me where I talk about push to attack.

[Mike Laidlaw]

Burdokva wrote...

Will there be an option to slow down combat? Or alternatively, slow down game time outside conversations. I know it may sound crazy, but I'm one of those who are not looking forward to the fast-paced combat style. Shooters, sure, but I prefer taking my time with RPGs. They are the type of game I like to play for escapism and relaxation when I'm tired.

Even an option to somehow slow things down so I don't have to be constantly focused on the game would be appreciated.

Not officially, no. I don't think you'll have trouble adjusting if you played Origins. Just because you close faster doesn't mean that you will kill an enemy every half-second and have to frantically click your mouse. Well, except when Varric is exaggerating.

Second, any plans for fixing archery? It seems to be "broken", in a sense, in all games involving melee. Archers are the weakest class (or specialization, it's irrelevant what you call it) even when properly leveled; it just feels week. Seeing all those descriptions of swords ripping enemies apart and spells blasting away has me somewhat concerned that archery will be even weaker. I'd appreciate some light shed on this - so far I haven't seen anything mentioned on the subject.

I can say we're working on archery right now.

[Jacks Smirking Revenge]

I wonder if the PC is going to have more keybinds. Like when we drug the bar across the screen we could still only hotkey 10 or 12 buttons instead of the 30 or so on the screen .

[SafetyShattered]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Burdokva wrote...

Will there be an option to slow down combat? Or alternatively, slow down game time outside conversations. I know it may sound crazy, but I'm one of those who are not looking forward to the fast-paced combat style. Shooters, sure, but I prefer taking my time with RPGs. They are the type of game I like to play for escapism and relaxation when I'm tired.

Even an option to somehow slow things down so I don't have to be constantly focused on the game would be appreciated.

Not officially, no. I don't think you'll have trouble adjusting if you played Origins. Just because you close faster doesn't mean that you will kill an enemy every half-second and have to frantically click your mouse. Well, except when Varric is exaggerating.

Second, any plans for fixing archery? It seems to be "broken", in a sense, in all games involving melee. Archers are the weakest class (or specialization, it's irrelevant what you call it) even when properly leveled; it just feels week. Seeing all those descriptions of swords ripping enemies apart and spells blasting away has me somewhat concerned that archery will be even weaker. I'd appreciate some light shed on this - so far I haven't seen anything mentioned on the subject.

I can say we're working on archery right now.

I am so glad to hear that you are working on archery. I love using bows in games but in DA I felt significantly weaker when using the bow when compared to my mage or warrior. Glad to know you are fixing it.

Thanks so much as of now you are my official new best friend.

[Apollo Starflare]

Jacks Smirking Revenge wrote...

I wonder if the PC is going to have more keybinds. Like when we drug the bar across the screen we could still only hotkey 10 or 12 buttons instead of the 30 or so on the screen .

As a console player I have to tell you to be thankful you've got as many as you have. Try playing it with 6!

[blothulfur]

Got to say I liked the combat in DAO but there were problems, "Alistair this spiders overwhelmed me shield bash it will you.....anytime.....really need that shield bash.....oh now i'm dead you useless sodding templar".Looks to me like they are trying to improve this and as for combat being the focus yes it is a fantasy rpg and its always combat heavy in these along with strong stories, great companions and deep worlds. Wouldn't want it any other way.

[TimelordDC]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

I've comment on this before, but I'll note it again. I see "hack and slash" or "brawlers" or "action games" as being defined by the way you engage with combat, insofar as the idea of the "combo" is king. Dante's Inferno or Ninja Gaiden, for instance, has more than 30 combos you can pull off by pressing things like XXX, XYX, AYYXXY and so on. That is where the sense of timing, and the feeling of "mashing" buttons comes from. Though skilled players of either game will tell you it's far from a mash. Mashing is for novices.

Dragon Age, for all you you press the A or X button (Xbox and PS3 respectively) to attack does not require awareness of extensive combos. There is no concept of light attack, heavy attack, aerial attack, etc. Instead, our focus is on abilities, which you acquire through leveling up, and which you can then upgrade, and which require stamina or mana to activate. The gameplay, then is more strategic, in that you have to manage resources (Kratos and Ryu never get tired). It's also more tactical, in that you have to make equipment choices, ability choices and party-composition choices well in advance of the combat, requiring a mix of planning and of-the-moment thinking.

A well-written post but not entirely correct. There is no fatigue in DA2 (it's in one of the posts here) which means, except for having a party, the combat system is similar to that of Titan Quest/Diablo/Sacred -> which are also action-RPGs or hack'n'slash. Even the leveling up of abilities is the same. So, the gameplay is more tactical -> there are no strategic choices to make (it's not as if you'll end up only with 50% of the available abilities and hence, have to pick and choose to make a strategic choice on the ability selection for each party member, right?) 
You go into each battle with your full complement of abilities, at full health/mana and with most cooldowns reset. This was already evident in Origins but at least some of the abilities/items had fatigue penalties so you couldn't stack them too much unless you build a character specifically for that but even that is now gone from DA2.
So, what does DA2 have that lends strategic depth to combat? classifying item choices as strategic in a game with inventory doesn't make sense. Ability choices for the most part don't either since you will travel with a party -> perhaps the strategic choices will be in making sure redundancy is avoided or abilities complement each other other.

I am interested to learn what other strategic choices affect combat since combat does play an integral role in the game.

[Amioran]

Wyndham711 wrote...

It's sad how ready some people are to disregard Sylvius' statements on this (among many other things). One doesn't have to agree with everything he's saying to see that he does have a point worth considering. Rarely do I see such well reasoned arguments on the Internet.

From whence arguing for the sake of arguing has become a reasoned argument?

You see, what it is clear from many posts here is that people have a damned fear of change, a priori. Also that last line of "disinstalling the Wticher after 10 mins. for the timining" is hilarious. As if a game would only be its combat and if you cannot find some good points also in things you don't necessarily approve. But are you giving the game a fair chance? There's simply no way to come in terms with this points if not doing exactly what you would like to, only because there's no openess in them. 

If you have to find something you don't like there's no way you will ever like it (on principle), and in any case what you want is not necessarily correct either. Until you don't give something a chance instead of always trying to put it down it is difficult you will ever change idea or regard it from another angle than the one you prefer to see it and that you judge the "correct" one.

This is true for games and for life in general. Arguing can be good, but having preconceptions on everything, cataloguing things on white/black with no shades of grey it's not the most intelligent thing, nor it is insisting promoting opinions as arguments, example being the bit of the "silly acrobatic" animations.

I'm a fan too of old RPGs (I like very much for example combat made in turns, as ToEE) and yet I don't take all changes from the cliché (or from what I personally like or prefer) as the devil incarnate, neither the most different (and I've been often times pleasurily surprised by them). Not I pretend to always find motives why a thing MUST be wrong also if there are not objective reasons for it to be so, apart personal tastes that are neither true in themselves. 

Modifié par Amioran, 25 septembre 2010 - 07:09 .

[Amioran]

Burdokva wrote...

Second, any plans for fixing archery? It seems to be "broken", in a sense, in all games involving melee. Archers are the weakest class (or specialization, it's irrelevant what you call it) even when properly leveled; it just feels week. Seeing all those descriptions of swords ripping enemies apart and spells blasting away has me somewhat concerned that archery will be even weaker. I'd appreciate some light shed on this - so far I haven't seen anything mentioned on the subject.

Actually Peter have wrote a lot of improvements being made to archery in the gameplay thread.

1) No more optimal range.
2) Archery talents require no more the (I must say gimmicky) flat "loop" wait as before to fire.
3) Archery talents are aimed to have same single target DPS as dual-wield ones, based on critical damage (so a lot of damage to single targets).
4) Varied bow types with different damage projectiles (for example fire bows, etc.) and, from what I understood, either possibility of enchanting them.
5) All rogue talents work also for archery this time. This is actually an improvement given by the fact that they are going more toward the specific archetypes, also if people assume this means less customization when IMO it is not.
6) Also AOE stuns are in the archery lines. In DAO there was only one. I hope there will be more this time. As for example they could make an ability to "imbue" arrows (ala arcane archer) or something similar (just guessing, I have no idea what they have in mind).

It can be I forgot something, but in any case it seems they are using a lot of love for archery this time. Awakening was a bad attempt on that direction, just giving a silly OP ability whitout really enhancing anything. But I think it was mostly done this way because they really had no time and kept the good ideas for later.

Modifié par Amioran, 25 septembre 2010 - 06:57 .

[danielkx]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Sound familiar? If you're thinking "Origins," you'd be pretty close. It's just faster, and more punchy.

So the characters now move at unrealistic speeds?

It seems a much smaller contingent of people are now concerned that their rogue might actually be that acrobatic.

The level of acrobatics in the Sacred Ashes trailer (which I never watched until after I'vd finished DAO for fear of spoilers) was incredibly silly.

That is where the sense of timing, and the feeling of "mashing" buttons comes from.

that sense of timing also needs to be avoided.  That sense of timing was why I uninstalled The Witcher after 10 minutes of play.

Sylv, let's be honest here, buddy. From what I can tell, you're not going to like a lot about DA2. There's lots you might like, but your rigidly-defined standards of what game I should be making are wildly divergent from the game I am making. And you know? I'm pretty damn sure neither one of us is budging.

Not to say the game you want to play wouldn't be good. It might. I have copies of some classic RPGs on a shelf 10 feet from me that suggests I have as much a taste for the old school as you do, but that's not the game I'm making.

So lets just agree to disagree and we can all get along. Or, I suppose, you can wander in and type snarky one-liners if that makes you happy. Free forum!

But you're not making a "brand new" game... you are making a sequel to a game. Because of how the combat was in the original game, the changes that you are making just feels like a step backwards. I agree completely with Sylvius on this one. If you were simply making a brand new game, not a dragon age game, then you saying "that's not the game I am making" would be more credible. But because you are making a sequel to a game and then significantly changing how the combat is, ( I do consider the changes being made quite significant) then simply saying he won't like DA2 is kind of a slap in the face.

Why shouldn't we expect the sequel to a game that is being released less than 2 years after its predecessor, to be very similar to its predecessor? But you are not doing that. Even though the game takes place in the same game universe, will likely feel very much like DA:O in terms of setting and the environment... you are making changes that make the game, in some cases, fundamentally different from DA:O, not just tweaking it. You are saying to Sylvius, "...From what I can tell, you're not going to like a lot about DA2," but shouldn't he have the expectation that he would like DA2 based on the fact that it is a direct seqeul to DA:O, a game which I am sure he likes?