256 réponses à ce sujet

[silentassassin264]

 Lets say that mage Hawke decides that the Qunari are awesome and decides to follow some Qunari back to Seheron at the end of the game.  How would the Qunari react to a mage trying to join them?

[Reaverwind]

They'd put him on a leash.

[Ahzrei]

Reaverwind wrote...

They'd put him on a leash.

This. Hopefully this theoretical mage knows how they treat mages.

[Nyaore]

Reaverwind wrote...

They'd put him on a leash.

And probably send them to be 're-educated' about their self worth. From what I remember from the game Mages are little better than dangerous things/objects to the Qunari, and I doubt they'd be willing to allow any of their converted mages to continue to possess any pesky sense of self that might impede with that notion.

[SDNcN]

Nyaore wrote...

And probably send them to be 're-educated' about their self worth. From what I remember from the game Mages are little better than dangerous things/objects to the Qunari, and I doubt they'd be willing to allow any of their converted mages to continue to possess any pesky sense of self that might impede with that notion.

Probably just kill them. It could be too dangerous to bring in mage converts as they could contaiminate the minds of the other mages with outside ideas.

But yeah if they did, I would imagine the Qunari would put them through some pretty intense brainwashing & conditioning to ensure the mage will follow their handler's instruction. I don't think the Qunari would just
slap on a collar and call it a day, not with beings they consider inherently dangerous.

Regardless of what the Qunari actually do, anyone stupid enough to knowingly hand themselves over to a group of people who treat their kind like a chained animals probably deserves what ever fate awaits them.

Modifié par SDNcN, 25 septembre 2010 - 02:00 .

[ShrinkingFish]

All you people have a very negative view on the Qunari and their practices.



I doubt it would be anything nearly as bad as all thing. The Warden would be arriving with Sten on his triumphant return to his people. Sten would speak to the Arishok about the Blight, tell him all he knew of it, with the added bonus of "And this is the guy who defeated it. He knows much more about the Blight than I do, he even killed the Archdemon, yadda yadda"



As such I believe that the Warden's status as a Grey Warden and a warrior of legend would outweigh his status as a mage at least in some regard.

[ErichHartmann]

The Qunari seem to take social control to the extreme by regulating every aspect of life. Hence my negative feelings I am developing against them.

Modifié par ErichHartmann, 25 septembre 2010 - 02:22 .

[ShrinkingFish]

ErichHartmann wrote...

The Qunari seem to take social control to the extreme by regulating every aspect of life. Hence my negative feelings I am developing against them.

Enlightenment through an understanding of Duty. Sacrifice of the self for the betterment of the whole. The Qunari are simply People of the Qun. The Qun gives them meaning, life, contentment and responsibility.

Also, keep in mind that most of those who were converted to the Qun during the First Qunari War refused to convert back to Andraste's religion when they were "liberated" from the Qunari. And because they refused many of them were butchered en masse by the Chantry's forces.

[ShrinkingFish]

Edit: Double post

Modifié par ShrinkingFish, 25 septembre 2010 - 02:36 .

[SDNcN]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

All you people have a very negative view on the Qunari and their practices.

Have you read some of the devs comments on the Qunari?
They do have some arguably positive things about their culture, but they are also militant totalitarians.
Personally, I find giving up that much control not worth what the Qunati are offering.

I doubt it would be anything nearly as bad as all thing. The Warden would be arriving with Sten on his triumphant return to his people. Sten would speak to the Arishok about the Blight, tell him all he knew of it, with the added bonus of "And this is the guy who defeated it. He knows much more about the Blight than I do, he even killed the Archdemon, yadda yadda"

As such I believe that the Warden's status as a Grey Warden and a
warrior of legend would outweigh his status as a mage at least in some
regard.

This is what David Gaider said in another thread.

David Gaider wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
Edit: On
a sidenote, is there any distinction in the eyes of the Qunari between
the Riviani and other people of Thedas, or are all simply unenlightened
fools? Since the Riviani have their own "psuedo-qun".

To the Qunari they're all bas-- even the Rivaini, though they at least are bas that are basalit-an
and thus worthy of dealing with. The Rivaini have incorporated elements
of the Qunari philosophy into their religion, but while the rest of
Thedas might consider the Rivaini sympathizers to the Qunari they
clearly do not follow the Qun and thus are still not Qunari in any way,
shape or form.

If the Arishok believes Sten, they might see the Grey Warden as Basalit-an, respect him and listen to what he has to tell them about the Darkspawn. If that Grey Warden is a mage and wants to become Qunari, I doubt they are going to exempt him from their treatment of mages just because he is awesome.

Modifié par SDNcN, 25 septembre 2010 - 02:38 .

[Jalem001]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

ErichHartmann wrote...

The Qunari seem to take social control to the extreme by regulating every aspect of life. Hence my negative feelings I am developing against them.

Enlightenment through an understanding of Duty. Sacrifice of the self for the betterment of the whole. The Qunari are simply People of the Qun. The Qun gives them meaning, life, contentment and responsibility.

Also, keep in mind that most of those who were converted to the Qun during the First Qunari War refused to convert back to Andraste's religion when they were "liberated" from the Qunari. And because they refused many of them were butchered en masse by the Chantry's forces.

1.  No.  Nowhere in the DA lore does it say that most people refused to convert back.  The Chantry was just surprised at how hard it was.

2.  The massacres weren't common practice, and none were ordered by the Chantry as far as we know.

3.  You're ignoring that the Qunari did far worse.  Upon being conquored you had two options:  Submit to the Qun, or become a slave.  Those who became slaves often died of stravation or simply from the harsh treatment.  Those who submitted still had to live within the extremely rigid system of the Qunari.

And to touch on your earlier post:

4.  The Qunari fear magic, and thats how the Exalted Marches against them achieved any level of success (Well that and there are way more humans than Qunari.  Quantity has a quality all of its own and all that).  The Qunari mages are little more than animals.  Their tongues are cut out (I believe), and they are kept shackled in chains (literally, not figuratively like the mages under the Chantry).  

Even a casual glance at the Qunari reveals an insanely autocratic society.  It's like taking the worst aspects of the Dwarves (Caste System), The Chantry (Oppression of mages), and The Imperium (Slavery)  and then making them ten times worse.  The trade off?  Some vague sense of peace as every aspect of your life is dictated to you by the Qun.

No, the Qunari are totally awesome >.>.  I'm sure we'll learn more, including some positive things, but...there's really no reason to be an apologist.  They have few redeeming qualities as a people.

Modifié par Jalem001, 25 septembre 2010 - 02:46 .

[ShrinkingFish]

SDNcN wrote...

Have you read some of the devs comments on the Qunari?
They do have some arguably positive things about their culture, but they are also militant totalitarians.
Personally, I find giving up that much control not worth what the Qunati are offering.

Fair enough. The culture is not perfect. No one ever said it was. But it is not evil either. Nor is the culture of the humans of Thedas good. Both have aspects that are positive and both have aspects that are negative.

This is what David Gaider said in another thread.

David Gaider wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
Edit: On
a sidenote, is there any distinction in the eyes of the Qunari between
the Riviani and other people of Thedas, or are all simply unenlightened
fools? Since the Riviani have their own "psuedo-qun".

To the Qunari they're all bas-- even the Rivaini, though they at least are bas that are basalit-an
and thus worthy of dealing with. The Rivaini have incorporated elements
of the Qunari philosophy into their religion, but while the rest of
Thedas might consider the Rivaini sympathizers to the Qunari they
clearly do not follow the Qun and thus are still not Qunari in any way,
shape or form.

If the Arishok believes Sten, they might see the Grey Warden as Basalit-an, respect him and listen to what he has to tell them about the Darkspawn. If that Grey Warden is a mage and wants to become Qunari, I doubt they are going to exempt him from their treatment of mages just because he is awesome.

The Qunari have very specific methods of dealing with very specific things. No telling how they would deal with a fully fledged mage who is also a Grey Warden. And I do not believe that whether of not Sten will be believed is an "If" at all. In fact I believe that his stories of the Warden, and this is if the player completed Sten's quest and got him to +100 approval "Friendly", may lead the Qunari to consider them as something other than a "mage".

I have read much of what has been said of the Qunari by the developers and one thing that stands out the most is how the Qunari think of themsevles and of others. That being that they have a very different way of looking at things than we do. That being said, the Warden's other qualities may qualify them as not being a mage but something else.

Of the Warden the following was said:

Mary Kirby wrote...

Sten
views the Warden as if he or she were some sort of  mythical creature,
possibly a unicorn. The Warden is a complete and utter fluke -- a
competent, honorable person (when Qunari generally consider unenlightened foreigners as things), produced by one-in-a-million chance in a miserable, degenerate, corrupt, self-destructive, chaotic cesspool.
Whatever the Warden happens to be --female, male, human, elf, dwarf,
mage, etc. -- is sort of irrelevant because the Warden is already being
considered by Sten as some sort of ambulatory pair of pants or talking
horse.

No telling how the Qunari would deal with an ambulatory pair of pants...

Modifié par ShrinkingFish, 25 septembre 2010 - 02:48 .

[ShrinkingFish]

Jalem001 wrote...

1.  No.  Nowhere in the DA lore does it say that most people refused to convert back.  The Chantry was just surprised at how hard it was.

2.  The massacres weren't common practice, and none were ordered by the Chantry as far as we know.

Brother Genitivi disagrees with you...

"Dealing with those of the local populace which had converted to the
qunari religion proved difficult, especially as some of these had lived
under the qun now for generations, and the response by many armies was
simply to exterminate all those who had converted. Officially the
Chantry denies this, claiming most converts fled north into Rivain and
Par Vollen, but the mass graves at Nocen Fields and Marnus Pell
attest otherwise. Indeed, so many were slain at Marnus Pell that the
Veil is said to be permanently sundered, the ruins still plagued by
restless corpses to this day."

3.  You're ignoring that the Qunari did far worse.  Upon being conquored you had two options:  Submit to the Qun, or become a slave.  Those who became slaves often died of stravation or simply from the harsh treatment.  Those who submitted still had to live within the extremely rigid system of the Qunari.

Points of cultural perspective. Many who cooperated and converted to the Qun found happiness and enlightenment under it.

And to touch on your earlier post:

4.  The Qunari fear magic, and thats how the Exalted Marches against them achieved any level of success (Well that and there are way more humans than Qunari.  Quantity has a quality all of its own and all that).  The Qunari mages are little more than animals.  Their tongues are cut out (I believe), and they are kept shackled in chains (literally, not figuratively like the mages under the Chantry).  

Magic is acknowledges by the Qunari and by the Chantry as being dangerous and unpredictable. Mages are treated as second class citizens within Chantry culture. The Qunari just take the precautions a little bit farther.

Even a casual glance at the Qunari reveals an insanely autocratic society.  It's like taking the worst aspects of the Dwarves (Caste System), The Chantry (Oppression of mages), and The Imperium (Slavery)  and then making them ten times worse.  The trade off?  Some vague sense of peace as every aspect of your life is dictated to you by the Qun.

"Insanely" is a point of perspective. It is not insane to a Qunari. What you're raving against is mostly that the Qun deprives individuals of "choice" which is an abstract and undefinable concept to begin with.

No, the Qunari are totally awesome >.>.  I'm sure we'll learn more, including some positive things, but...there's really no reason to be an apologist.  They have few redeeming qualities as a people.

Happily... I disagree. I think they have many, if not more, redeeming qualities as the rest of Thedas' population. Sten is by far the best character in Dragon Age Origins. I would trust him with my life more readily than any one of the others in any situation. And he is not even the best of his race.

The player simply opperates from a disadvantageous position when dealing with the Qunari as they see them only from the Chantry's point of view, a point of view closely linked to Western Culture, while the Qunari are more closely linked to more Eastern Cultures.

Many players rebel against the ideals that rule the Qunari simply because they are "other" and because they are inacapable of understanding them. It takes am empathetic mind that questions all information it recieves to come to an understanding of their virtues.

Modifié par ShrinkingFish, 25 septembre 2010 - 03:04 .

[marshalleck]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

ErichHartmann wrote...

The Qunari seem to take social control to the extreme by regulating every aspect of life. Hence my negative feelings I am developing against them.

Enlightenment through an understanding of Duty. Sacrifice of the self for the betterment of the whole. The Qunari are simply People of the Qun. The Qun gives them meaning, life, contentment and responsibility..

All of which is going to seem very foreign and disturbing to someone born and raised in a egoistic, individualistic society where the needs and wants of one person are subjectively deemed to be of greatest importance and priority.

[ShrinkingFish]

marshalleck wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

ErichHartmann wrote...

The Qunari seem to take social control to the extreme by regulating every aspect of life. Hence my negative feelings I am developing against them.

Enlightenment through an understanding of Duty. Sacrifice of the self for the betterment of the whole. The Qunari are simply People of the Qun. The Qun gives them meaning, life, contentment and responsibility..

All of which is going to seem very foreign and disturbing to someone born and raised in a egoistic, individualistic society where the needs and wants of one person are subjectively deemed to be of greatest importance and priority.

I like you. You're smart. =)

[marshalleck]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

You're smart. =)

Of course. We are geth.

Modifié par marshalleck, 25 septembre 2010 - 03:15 .

[ShrinkingFish]

marshalleck wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

You're smart. =)

Of course. We are geth.

Win.

[SDNcN]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Fair enough. The culture is not perfect. No one ever said it was. But it is not evil either. Nor is the culture of the humans of Thedas good. Both have aspects that are positive and both have aspects that are negative.

That is a given, but the thread is about the Qunari. People will talk about the negative aspects of the Qunari, not Orlais or Tevinter, because that would be off-topic.

The Qunari have very specific methods of dealing with very specific things. No telling how they would deal with a fully fledged mage who is also a Grey Warden. And I do not believe that whether of not Sten will be believed is an "If" at all. In fact I believe that his stories of the Warden, and this is if the player completed Sten's quest and got him to +100 approval "Friendly", may lead the Qunari to consider them as something other than a "mage".

Why? Sten may believe that the Mage Warden is honorable and not deserving of the fate Qunari mages suffer, it doesn't mean he can convince his superiors to think the same way.

The conversation could quite possibly go like this:

"Even though the nation was ingulfed in war, the Warden found and returned my lost blade."

"So you lost your sword, was this before or after your squad was slaughtered by these Darkspawn creatures and you murdered the unarmed bas?"

"The Grey Warden single handedly rallied the people of Ferelden against the Blight and slew the Archdemon."

"I am confused, why are you telling me the Grey Warden did its job?"

"I never expected to find such a person amongst the bas. Odd that one that I would call Kadan be born a mage."

"Wait so this Grey Warden is a Saarebas?  Ben-Hassrath take them both away!"

No telling how the Qunari would deal with an ambulatory pair of pants...

And what if that pair of pants wishes to become Qunari? If the Qunari have no other place in their society for their own, what place would they give an outside mage? I doubt tales of a honorable foreign mage will cause the Qunari to suddenly rethink their outlook on magic.

Points of cultural perspective. Many who cooperated and converted to the Qun found happiness and enlightenment under it.

Just like many Qunari reject the Qun and become Tal'Vashoth.

Magic is acknowledges by the Qunari and by the Chantry as being
dangerous and unpredictable. Mages are treated as second class citizens
within Chantry culture. The Qunari just take the precautions a little
bit farther.

Keeping mages locked away from mainstream society or chaining them like attack dogs is a much bigger difference than 'just a little bit further'. One is a gilded cage, the other is a literal cage.

Happily... I disagree. I think they have many, if not more,
redeeming qualities as the rest of Thedas' population. Sten is by far
the best character in Dragon Age Origins. I would trust him with my life
more readily than any one of the others in any situation. And he is not
even the best of his race.

That is a matter of personal opinon.

marshalleck wrote...

All of which is going to seem very
foreign and disturbing to someone born and raised in a egoistic,
individualistic society where the needs and wants of one person are
subjectively deemed to be of greatest importance and priority.

Or you know, someone who believes in serving the community, but doesn't want the community dictating every single aspect of their life.

Modifié par SDNcN, 25 septembre 2010 - 04:27 .

[ShrinkingFish]

SDNcN wrote...

Why? Sten may believe that the Mage Warden is honorable and not deserving of the fate Qunari mages suffer, it doesn't mean he can convince his superiors to think the same way.

The conversation could quite possibly go like this:

"Even though the nation was ingulfed in war, the Warden found and returned my lost blade."

"So you lost your sword, was this before or after your squad was slaughtered by these Darkspawn creatures and you murdered the unarmed bas?"

"The Grey Warden single handedly rallied the people of Ferelden against the Blight and slew the Archdemon."

"I am confused, why are you telling me the Grey Warden did its job?"

"I never expected to find such a person amongst the bas. Odd that one that I would call Kadan be born a mage."

"Wait so this Grey Warden is a Saarebas?  Ben-Hassrath take them both away!"

The conversation could also go like this:

Sten: I came back and I have stuff to tell you!

Arishok: Buk buk!! I'm a chicken!

Truth is... neither of us knows for sure.

However, due to the philosophy revolving around the Qun, Sten's clear aversion to lieing, and many other pieces of evidence that I'm not going to bother mentioning because I lack the energy to continue this argument, I believe that Sten's word would be respected and listened to by his superiors.

That is a matter of personal opinon.

So is every point you have made thus far.

However, I put it to you, who would you rather trust with your life?

Alistair? Someone so obsessed with his own life and choices that he is completely unwilling to do what he must in order to help those who need it? Someone you have to press into to do what is right? Think he would have your back in any situation no matter what it was?

Oghren? Emotional wreck who buries himself in the sauce and is as likely to swing an axe as he is to fall over?

Morrigan? Who would save you only if she deamed you important to her purpose?

Zevran?....

Eh... you know what? I'm not going to do this. Point is, I wouldn't trust any of them. If I got into trouble, no matter what that trouble was, I'd call on Sten. He'd be sure to get me out or die trying.

Or you know, someone who believes in serving the community, but doesn't
want the community dictating every single aspect of their life.

Believing in something and doing it are very different things.

Edit: End point. I have a lot more faith in the Qunari than is being shown in this thread. They are being painted here as a completely closed minded and bigoted people, which I believe is a misinterpretation. Sten is proof of this, and unfortunely, the only example of their culture we have. But if Sten is an accurate representation of the average among the Qunari, then they are a great people indeed.

Modifié par ShrinkingFish, 25 septembre 2010 - 04:38 .

[SDNcN]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

However, due to the philosophy revolving around the Qun, Sten's clear aversion to lieing, and many other pieces of evidence that I'm not going to bother mentioning because I lack the energy to continue this argument, I believe that Sten's word would be respected and listened to by his superiors.

And like I have been saying, if the Mage Grey Warden wished to join the Qunari, it is unrealistic to believe they would treat him any differently than the other Saarebas just because because Sten thinks he is an awesome guy.

However, I put it to you, who would you rather trust with your life?

How I feel about the Origins companions has no relevence to this thread.

Believing in something and doing it are very different things.

And obviously totalitarianism is need make sure people are doing it.

Edit: End point. I have a lot more faith in the Qunari than is being
shown in this thread. They are being painted here as a completely
closed minded and bigoted people, which I believe is a
misinterpretation. Sten is proof of this, and unfortunely, the only
example of their culture we have. But if Sten is an accurate
representation of the average among the Qunari, then they are a great
people indeed.

They've been painted as control freaks who exert near total control over their people, which they pretty much are.

But yeah people disagree with you.
Welcome to the internet.

Modifié par SDNcN, 25 septembre 2010 - 04:55 .

[ShrinkingFish]

SDNcN wrote...

And like I have been saying, if the Mage Grey Warden wished to join the Qunari, it is unrealistic to believe they would treat him any differently than the other Saarebas just because because Sten thinks he is an awesome guy.

Not necessarily. It depends on how much they value the opinions of their people. How much credence they give to witnessed events. How much trust they invest in those of the Qun. Which by my understanding, is a lot.

If the Warden proved himself worthy to Sten, perhaps his superiors would respect this vote of confidence and so treat the Warden as a person instead of as a thing. Which is what a part of that word means, "bas" = "thing". If the mage proves first that they are not a "thing" then who is to say how the Qunari will treat them.

We don't know for sure. We're not Qunari.

And obviously a totalitarianism is need make sure people are doing it.

People certainly don't on their own. Capitalism advocates personal interest. And it is not a totalitarianist government. Look up the meaning of that word if you're so eager to throw it around.

They've been painted as control freaks who exert near total control over their people, which they pretty much are.

They've been painted as "foreigners" above all else. And nobody likes foreigners because they are different. The reason most people don't like Qunari is for that very reason. They are different and should therefore be hated. Ignorance breeds resentment. Understanding breeds acceptance.

But yeah people disagree with you.
Welcome to the internet.

Well, if I agreed with you we'd both be wrong. And where would that get us?

Modifié par ShrinkingFish, 25 septembre 2010 - 05:07 .

[DragonOfWhiteThunder]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

SDNcN wrote...

And like I have been saying, if the Mage Grey Warden wished to join the Qunari, it is unrealistic to believe they would treat him any differently than the other Saarebas just because because Sten thinks he is an awesome guy.

Not necessarily. It depends on how much they value the opinions of their people. How much credence they give to witnessed events. How much trust they invest in those of the Qun. Which by my understanding, is a lot.

If the Warden proved himself worthy to Sten, perhaps his superiors would respect this vote of confidence and so treat the Warden as a person instead of as a thing. Which is what a part of that word means, "bas" = "thing". If the mage proves first that they are not a "thing" then who is to say how the Qunari will treat them.

We don't know for sure. We're not Qunari.

The alternative, however, and still possible, is that Sten's superiors may simply believe that while Sten was away, he lost sight of the Qun. From my understanding, (which is admittedly as limited as everyone else's here), the society of the Qunari is a thing of absolutes. Remembering the discussion Sten has with you as a female character: in his mind, a woman whom fights is a paradox. You cannot change what you are and as a woman you are not a warrior, and vice versa.

If this is a solid example of Qunari philosophy, then by extension a mage is a dangerous thing that must be tightly controlled lest it destroy everything. That cannot be changed any more than one's gender, or natural abilities.

Barring Sten having significant influence, at best a Warden-mage would be seen as a paradox similar to the woman warrior - this creature is a Grey Warden, which is an honorable, capable soldier, yet s/he is a mage, which is as described above. At worst, they focus on the danger magic presents and treat him/her as a mage.

[SDNcN]

ShrinkingFish wrote...



Not necessarily. It depends on how much they value the opinions of their people. How much credence they give to witnessed events. How much trust they invest in those of the Qun. Which by my understanding, is a lot.

If the Warden proved himself worthy to Sten, perhaps his superiors would respect this vote of confidence and so treat the Warden as a person instead of as a thing. Which is what a part of that word means, "bas" = "thing". If the mage proves first that they are not a "thing" then who is to say how the Qunari will treat them.

We don't know for sure. We're not Qunari.

The Qunari treat their mages a certain way because they believe mages are dangerous and must be controlled that way. It is reasonable to assume that a mage Grey Warden joining the Qunari would be treated the same way as the other Saarebas, because if the Qunari would trust a single mage enough to treat them another way, then that invalidates their views on how to handle all mages.

People certainly don't on their own. Capitalism advocates personal interest. And it is not a totalitarianist government. Look up the meaning of that word if you're so eager to throw it around.

From Merriam-Webster
Definition of TOTALITARIANISM1 : centralized control by an autocratic authority 2 : the political concept that the citizen should be totally subject to an absolute state authority

The Qunari are lead by a govenment that believes strongly in totalitarian principles and controls every aspect of their lives.

I am not really sure what you are trying to say about capitalism, but I think I am not going to go any further on that topic because it is increasingly crossing over into real world politics.

They've been painted as "foreigners" above all else. And nobody likes foreigners because they are different. The reason most people don't like Qunari is for that very reason. They are different and should therefore be hated. Ignorance breeds resentment. Understanding breeds acceptance.

You keep saying this, but no one is saying they dislike the Qunari because they are foriegn. Someone that disapproves of what the Qunari supports isn't ignorant of their culture. They just dissaprove of them.

And there are some things that are not acceptable. Ever.
Regardless of whether or not it is permissable by someone's culture.

Modifié par SDNcN, 25 septembre 2010 - 05:43 .