256 réponses à ce sujet

[marshalleck]

SDNcN wrote...

Or you know, someone who believes in serving the community, but doesn't want the community dictating every single aspect of their life.

But community does dictate every aspect of one's life to some degree or another, unless one is a hermit living alone in the woods.

As for the topic at hand, I think a mage Warden would not fare well amongst the Qunari. I think the best he could hope for would be a refusal to accept him amongst their society, and that seems unlikely considering how militant the Qunari are about spreading their philosophy. That he fulfilled the task for which he was intended as a Grey Warden would earn him no special dispensation. He'd be leashed and muzzled.

Modifié par marshalleck, 25 septembre 2010 - 06:33 .

[David Gaider]

I see some wishful thinking at work, here.

The best that a bas can hope for amongst the Qunari is to be considered basalit-an-- an "honorable thing". This is a worthy foe, and one that can be negotiated with to an extent. But they are still bas, something the Qunari would consider unfortunate, and ultimately such a being would benefit from the Qun's wisdom.

The Qunari don't see a problem with treating any mage as they do, because they don't think it's bad. A mage has their place just as anyone does. So a human mage of any stripe that converted to the Qun would take their place as a saarebas. If they weren't willing to do that, then they're not really converting, are they? They would be professing to believe without actually understanding.

Now, this is with the understanding that the individual Qunari might come to understand differently than the group-- but one cannot account for the effect of the individual. I'm talking about the philosophy of the Qunari as a whole and how it would apply. If one prefers to believe that Sten would be willing or able to convince, say, the Arishok to look on a bas as something to be given special consideration-- well that's hypothetical but you're free to think so.

Modifié par David Gaider, 25 septembre 2010 - 06:49 .

[Lord Gremlin]

I take it we won't be able to side with qunari in DA2. As a mage at least.

[ShrinkingFish]

David Gaider wrote...

I see some wishful thinking at work, here.

The best that a bas can hope for amongst the Qunari is to be considered basalit-an-- an "honorable thing". This is a worthy foe, and one that can be negotiated with to an extent. But they are still bas, something the Qunari would consider unfortunate, and ultimately such a being would benefit from the Qun's wisdom.

The Qunari don't see a problem with treating any mage as they do, because they don't think it's bad. A mage has their place just as anyone does. So a human mage of any stripe that converted to the Qun would take their place as a saarebas. If they weren't willing to do that, then they're not really converting, are they? They would be professing to believe without actually understanding.

Now, this is with the understanding that the individual Qunari might come to understand differently than the group-- but one cannot account for the effect of the individual. I'm talking about the philosophy of the Qunari as a whole and how it would apply. If one prefers to believe that Sten would be willing or able to convince, say, the Arishok to look on a bas as something to be given special consideration-- well that's hypothetical but you're free to think so.

Thanks for lowering the all mighty Hand of Gaider into this thread. As to my arguments, wishful thinking it may have been, but much more likely that I just enjoy playing the devil's advocate and confusing the issues when people choose to be staunchly negative about certain things. And I was just in an antagonistic mood. Honestly I wish you'd chimed in on any thread of mine but this one as it is not my proudest work.

Anyways, I am somewhat confused as to the treatment and status of the saarebas if you would be so kind as to answer my query and clarify the issue:

I know they are all leashed and watched over and controlled by their handlers, but do all of them also get their tongues cut out, as Sten said, or is that just for those who have broken certain rules, as the Wiki says? Used forbidden magic, as it were?

[silentassassin264]

Hmm, I guess my mage warden won't be traveling with Sten back to Seheron.

[ShrinkingFish]

silentassassin264 wrote...

Hmm, I guess my mage warden won't be traveling with Sten back to Seheron.

Probably a good call. Mages best seek enlightenment elsewhere.

[ShrinkingFish]

SDNcN wrote...

From Merriam-Webster
Definition of TOTALITARIANISM1 : centralized control by an autocratic authority 2 : the political concept that the citizen should be totally subject to an absolute state authority

The Qunari are lead by a govenment that believes strongly in totalitarian principles and controls every aspect of their lives.

Sorry for rehashing this, I'm really not interested in arguing about it anymore. But I just wanted to clarify a few things on this.

The main aspects of a Totalitarian State is that the power is centralized, usually held entirely by one single person (most commonly), party, faction or class, and is most often marked by the central power regulating free speech, controlling the economy and maintaining a widespread status of terrorism that it enacts on its own people. As well as many other aspects.

I agree that certain aspects of the Qunari state are Totalitarian is nature as the Qun regulates many aspects of life. However, they lack many of the negative aspects that commonly plague Totalitarian states. They respect the importance of the whole, decentralize power to a great extent as each branch of the culture governs different aspects of life, and do not abuse the majority of their people (their treatment of mages being an understandable extreme, one might fault the Qunari for being overly cautious in this regard, although there is nothing to suggest that some Qunari mages don't accept their social position and understand and accept the limitations that are put upon them for the good of their people). And most of all the governing party does not enforce their rule with acts of state terrorism, or at least, not that we know of. And most Qunari seem to view their lives positively, their people positively, and their government positively if Sten is any indication. Therefore their government could be viewed as the ideal version of the Totalitarian government.

And their regulation of everything both personal and private is, I think, is a bit of a hyperbole. In fact, one converted follower of the Qun suggested that there is more personal choice and freedom with life as a Qunari than when under the Chantry, saying:

"For all my life I followed the Maker wherever his path may lead me,’
he writes, ‘but in the faith of the qun I have found the means to travel
my own path. If only all my people could understand what it is the
qunari offer us."

The reason I take issue with the use of the word itself is because it is politically charged at this point. Due to the horrors perpetrated by Totalitarian governments throughout histroy most people think of such a government as being the embodiment of evil. So to use the word in any context for any government changes the nature of the conversation.

Modifié par ShrinkingFish, 26 septembre 2010 - 06:48 .

[silentassassin264]

MariSkep wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

Hmm, I guess my mage warden won't be traveling with Sten back to Seheron.

Probably a good call. Mages best seek enlightenment elsewhere.

do eet.

The story will make the trip worth it.

"So it's me and like 50 Qunari and I'm getting my hindequarters out of there when suddenly..."

Well she is an arcane warrior.  She could probably fake being a real soldier as long as she doesn't cut on fade shroud.

[ShrinkingFish]

silentassassin264 wrote...

MariSkep wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

Hmm, I guess my mage warden won't be traveling with Sten back to Seheron.

Probably a good call. Mages best seek enlightenment elsewhere.

do eet.

The story will make the trip worth it.

"So it's me and like 50 Qunari and I'm getting my hindequarters out of there when suddenly..."

Well she is an arcane warrior.  She could probably fake being a real soldier as long as she doesn't cut on fade shroud.

Haha, right on. Join the Qun under a false pretext. Should be an interesting story at the very least. I'd like to see the day when you sneeze and a fireball shoots out of your nose and you try to play it off as nothing.

Modifié par ShrinkingFish, 26 septembre 2010 - 07:02 .

[LobselVith8]

silentassassin264 wrote...

Hmm, I guess my mage warden won't be traveling with Sten back to Seheron.

Probably a good idea, although I wonder if the fact that the mage Warden kills the Archdemon and stops the Blight would change the perceptions of any of the Qunari. The main reason that the Qunari armies even lost against the Andrastian nations is because of the Circle of Magi, after all.

According to Brother Genitivi in the Tales of the Destruction of Thedas:

The greatest advantage that the Chantry-led forces had against the qunari was, in fact, the Circle of Magi. For all their technology, the qunari appeared to harbor a great hatred for all things magical. They possessed mages, but these were little better than animals kept on leashes… and none of the qunari mages possessed anywhere near the skill that the Circle’s mages had. Faced with cannons, the Chantry responded with lightning and balls of fire and it proved effective indeed.

[Sable Rhapsody]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Probably a good idea, although I wonder if the fact that the mage Warden kills the Archdemon and stops the Blight would change the perceptions of any of the Qunari. The main reason that the Qunari armies even lost against the Andrastian nations is because of the Circle of Magi, after all.

According to Brother Genitivi in the Tales of the Destruction of Thedas:

The greatest advantage that the Chantry-led forces had against the qunari was, in fact, the Circle of Magi. For all their technology, the qunari appeared to harbor a great hatred for all things magical. They possessed mages, but these were little better than animals kept on leashes… and none of the qunari mages possessed anywhere near the skill that the Circle’s mages had. Faced with cannons, the Chantry responded with lightning and balls of fire and it proved effective indeed.

Actually, it's quite the opposite.  If you're a mage and you bring Sten to the Circle, you can get a pretty extensive set of conversations with him about magic.  At the end, he comments on the Tevinter Imperium and their mages, basically saying that seeing the ill effects of magic used against his own people has made him even more convinced of its dangers.

Of course, he and my mage ended up best buddies, though I doubt she's going back to Seheron with him any time soon.  Something from Mary Kirby about Sten thinking the Warden is a unicorn and all that 

[joriandrake]

Ahzrei wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

They'd put him on a leash.

This. Hopefully this theoretical mage knows how they treat mages.

Maybe a theoritical M mage would enjoy it.

[only1sgop]

joriandrake wrote...

Ahzrei wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

They'd put him on a leash.

This. Hopefully this theoretical mage knows how they treat mages.

Maybe a theoritical M mage would enjoy it.

Given Sten's viewpoint of women, I don't think the mage will be accepted with open arms. It took a long time for Sten to accept a woman as a leader(Grey Warden).

[joriandrake]

only1sgop wrote...

joriandrake wrote...

Ahzrei wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

They'd put him on a leash.

This. Hopefully this theoretical mage knows how they treat mages.

Maybe a theoritical M mage would enjoy it.

Given Sten's viewpoint of women, I don't think the mage will be accepted with open arms. It took a long time for Sten to accept a woman as a leader(Grey Warden).

him/her would probably not care about it aslong a leash and some chains are included to the deal for free

[silentassassin264]

only1sgop wrote...

joriandrake wrote...

Ahzrei wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

They'd put him on a leash.

This. Hopefully this theoretical mage knows how they treat mages.

Maybe a theoritical M mage would enjoy it.

Given Sten's viewpoint of women, I don't think the mage will be accepted with open arms. It took a long time for Sten to accept a woman as a leader(Grey Warden).

Sten did not have a problem with women in leadership positions, he had a problem with a woman on the front lines fighting.  Big difference.  The qunari are not women hating misogynists.  The tamassrans pretty much run society and they have female Ben-Hassraths.   

And my not so theoretical mage might not mind being on a leash, it is just that Mr. Gaider never answers how qunari mages fit into society.  He said that the qunari do not waste people but that really doesn't help.  If the qunari would still let my mage fight people like a quasi soldier or perhaps be a weapons researcher (Kang the Mad type) with a nice handler then she would be quite fine with that.  However, we never really get a description of how mages under the qun live and what they are allowed to do on that leash.  

They clearly still see them as people as they still have a place and purpose under the qun, the devs just haven't expanded much on what that place and purpose is.

Modifié par silentassassin264, 29 septembre 2010 - 02:12 .

[only1sgop]

joriandrake wrote...

only1sgop wrote...

joriandrake wrote...

Ahzrei wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

They'd put him on a leash.

This. Hopefully this theoretical mage knows how they treat mages.

Maybe a theoritical M mage would enjoy it.

Given Sten's viewpoint of women, I don't think the mage will be accepted with open arms. It took a long time for Sten to accept a woman as a leader(Grey Warden).

him/her would probably not care about it aslong a leash and some chains are included to the deal for free

U mean the Quanari. Of course the Quanari won't mind

[tool_bot]

silentassassin264 wrote...

And my not so theoretical mage might not mind being on a leash, it is just that Mr. Gaider never answers how qunari mages fit into society.  He said that the qunari do not waste people but that really doesn't help.

He sorta did, though didn't he? They're 'defective' people and, like in Andrastian controlled soceities, are viewed as dangerous. The measures taken to control them involve the removing of tongues, being chained and wearing a gimp suit judging by the pics.

Really all you need to know.

[silentassassin264]

tool_bot wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

And my not so theoretical mage might not mind being on a leash, it is just that Mr. Gaider never answers how qunari mages fit into society.  He said that the qunari do not waste people but that really doesn't help.

He sorta did, though didn't he? They're 'defective' people and, like in Andrastian controlled soceities, are viewed as dangerous. The measures taken to control them involve the removing of tongues, being chained and wearing a gimp suit judging by the pics.

Really all you need to know.

Yes they are viewed as problem children but he (or Mary) said that they had sympathy for them.  We also do not what jobs (if any) they are allowed to do.  I find it hard to believe that a society based on everyone being important and performing their duty would prevent a mage from helping them research weapons if they had the aptitude just because they sneeze fireballs.  And for the record, they only remove the tongues of mages who do forbidden magic and considering the Chantry kills mages who do forbidden magic, it isn't that much better in Ferelden.

[tool_bot]

silentassassin264 wrote...
Yes they are viewed as problem children but he (or Mary) said that they had sympathy for them.  We also do not what jobs (if any) they are allowed to do.  I find it hard to believe that a society based on everyone being important and performing their duty would prevent a mage from helping them research weapons if they had the aptitude just because they sneeze fireballs.  And for the record, they only remove the tongues of mages who do forbidden magic and considering the Chantry kills mages who do forbidden magic, it isn't that much better in Ferelden.

Sympathy is nice. So's not being caged.
- I don't think they'd be given much in the way of responsibility. Going off Sten's dialog what you do is largely predetermined, like the dwarf caste system. This is your job and this is all you do. From the way he went off about it it sounded like this was something the Qunari viewed as a strength; devotion to one discipline and one alone.

Also if you were free to walk about you wouldn't need a handler, would you?
-But how do the Qunari determine what's forbidden magic? 

[silentassassin264]

The Circle is a cage and the mages in Chantry lands and they don't even get sympathy. Everyone hates them and blames then for everything that goes wrong. Being under the Qun, you just have your very own personal templar at the end of your leash at all times.



It is not like the dwarven caste system. The caste system has a clear hierarchy. Under the qun there are no leaders and everyone is equal, 'cept mages. What I was wondering was what exactly that "caste" of mage is allowed to do. Do the handlers keep them in a kennel all day (my mage finds that state disagreeable) or are they allowed to actually be productive members of society with the handler always watching them (make things that explode. That pleases my mage.). That is the question.



I have no clue what the Qunari consider forbidden magic. Do they even study what their mages can do?

[joriandrake]

only1sgop wrote...

joriandrake wrote...

only1sgop wrote...

joriandrake wrote...

Ahzrei wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

They'd put him on a leash.

This. Hopefully this theoretical mage knows how they treat mages.

Maybe a theoritical M mage would enjoy it.

Given Sten's viewpoint of women, I don't think the mage will be accepted with open arms. It took a long time for Sten to accept a woman as a leader(Grey Warden).

him/her would probably not care about it aslong a leash and some chains are included to the deal for free

U mean the Quanari. Of course the Quanari won't mind

I just couldn't help myself but imagine a mage that would love to be chained and such (with evens similar to what in Familiar of Zero happen now and then), and that would be the cause for it to go freely to the qunari

[Generic Guy]

You know this topic makes me think. Why is it whenever the chantry does anything that in anyway might negatively effect a mage it is decried as more proof of the Chantry as an evil institution that should be destroyed, but when the Qunari do things to mages, that by an sane definition are much worse, people cant help but fall over themselves trying to make excuses for the Qunari?

[Inquisitor Recon]

A mage that unintelligent to try to join the qunari would probably have been fooled and possessed by a demon anyway.



I agree with Generic Guy. Seems too many here have a natural bias against the Chantry when they are largely a necessary institution. It would be quite amusing if the more radical mages did get their wish to break free of the Chantry, only to have their tongues cut off and be kept on leashes by the quanari.

[silentassassin264]

@GenericGuy and ReconTeam

silentassassin264 wrote...

Yes they are viewed as problem children but he (or Mary) said that they had sympathy for them.  We also do not what jobs (if any) they are allowed to do.  I find it hard to believe that a society based on everyone being important and performing their duty would prevent a mage from helping them research weapons if they had the aptitude just because they sneeze fireballs.  And for the record, they only remove the tongues of mages who do forbidden magic and considering the Chantry kills mages who do forbidden magic, it isn't that much better in Ferelden.

As I said before, the Qunari do not just cut off mage's tongues.  They only do it if they do forbidden magic and the Chantry kills mages who do forbidden magic. 

As far as their existence in the Qun, as I said before, none of the Devs have said what the mages can or cannot do, only that they have leashes and have a handler.  

The Circle mages are in a glorified cage with armored sentinels waiting for a reason to kill them.  Under the Qun, the Qunari view the mages as defective but sympathetic.  Under the Chantry, they are viewed as defective and monstrosities.  The Qunari position at least so far has not been shown to be terribly worse than the Chantry.  Either way you have no freedom.

Modifié par silentassassin264, 29 septembre 2010 - 05:23 .