256 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Greagoir has no oversight in the Circle Tower. There's no Seer to stop him from executing Jowan. And Cullen rules the Circle in fear if the Warden agrees to cull the Circle, and he can do that because there's no oversight.

Not necessarily.

Is there a internal police officer constantly stationed at every police station? No. Tehy act on clues and come when they are called.
Can you really tell me that it's impossible that some other templar (or mage) can repot another templar?
Can you find any evidence that this isn't so. Furthermor, if there really was no oversight, do oyu realyl think Wynne and many other mages would be so OK with it?

Let's try to have a civilized conversation here, okay? Considering the leaders of the Dalish were descended from the ruling leaders of the Dales and Arlathan, and they have magical abilities.

Let's try to have a rational one (for a change).

Show me PROOF that clearly states how the ancient elves handels mages. How the Dales handled mages. How and where those mages lived (did they even live together with non-mages).  What control there was? How many mages were there?
We got FAR too little on this to make such claims.

Again, Cullen can rule the Circle in fear in the Epilogue where the Circle was culled. If he isn't a leader, he goes on a killing spree. That's the type of person who becomes Knight-Commander of the Ferelden Circle.

Mistakes happen. Hitler became the leader of German..Stalin ruled in Russia. Nero in Rome...demented, crazy peopel sometimes getting too much pwoer..happens.
Not to mention that Cullen was a pretty swell guy before his mind rape. The mages did that. So..if I follow your logic of "templars force mages to dot this" then by that extention, mages forced Cullen to do that.

Again, you support the Chantry and the templars. I get it. Why do you get so defensive when I bring up an alternative to their approach on mages? Arlathan, the Dales, the Disciples of Haven, and the Dalish are alternatives to the Chantry's solution to mages. Why not reference them to show people that mages and non-mages have lived together? Why not debate an alternative, instead of supporting the current condition that murders illegal mages?

Because you mention those alternatives like you know everything about them, and like they are a thousand times better. And make a lot of positive assumptions about them, while at the same time make a lot of negative assumptions about the templars/Chantry.

If you were a more objective and restrained, and put more thought in your posts, there would be no need for me to debate this with you.

[ShrinkingFish]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...
The general populace does not have to be worse off if mages are given more freedoms.... perhaps it will only be the Chantry that is worse off.

I was referring to the Tevinter model of policing.
Aparently, it's not a nice place for your average Joe...but again, that might be bias in the Codexes.

Ah, sorry. Yes, the Tevinter model does leave something to be desired, it seems.

Forcing the Chantry to expand their programs, recruiting more Templar for an open door policy. It would certainly cost the Chantry much time and money, stretching their resources thin, perhaps they would have to cut down on buying books and artifacts and building new and better Chantry's. But such could be considered an acceptable trade by some.

Maybe reduce the amount of money that goes towarsd the common folk?

I just don't see the open door policy as viable. In fact, if several templar have to accompany every mage, it might cost the mages even more privacy.

It might. Depends on where the Chantry would be most willing to cut their spendings. I find it likely they'd cut from charitable funds sooner than those that benefit themselves so you're probably right. And that isn't some sort of commentary on the "Evil Organized Religion" just a commentary on human nature and the nature of politics in general.

Yeah, the open door thing is likely a bad call. Though one Templar per mage should be enough... That's why I support my new idea that I posted in the other thread that we're arguing in... monastaries! Make them all into a bunch of little mage monks!

Whether or not this is morally justified is another question. The
actions of individuals depending on many circumstances that are
entirely unmeasurable by law. Naturally there will be cases when
Templar's should not let the blade fall and do, as well as cases where
they should have sliced some throats but didn't.

With power
comes abuses. The Chantry is no more free from this truth as the old
Tevinter Imperium was before them. It is not their fault... and the
answer is not necessarily to enforce additional scruples onto Templar
shoulders which would only impede them in their duties.

This is
simply just another necessary evil that the Chantry is willing to
accept. An evil that is entirely unacceptable to others.

Unacceptable or not, it is unavoidable.
Justified use of deadly force, determined by hte pofficer o nthe scene. That's how the police do it, and sometimes, people die. Sometimes, the police officer is a vengfull dick and shoots when it's not warranted. Sometimes, that gang kid pulls out a gun and hte officer shoots to protect his life.
It's sad, but is similar to the situation here.

Yup. Definitely very similar. Such organizations are always prone to abuses that are largely unavoidable. But I can't help but ask if maybe there is a better way... In the meantime I'm willing to stick to the Chantry's methods, though in all honestly I have a leaning towards the Qunari's methods over the Chantry's. They seem much more effective in their jobs than even the Circles and Templars are.

[nightcobra]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Because you mention those alternatives like you know everything about them, and like they are a thousand times better. And make a lot of positive assumptions about them, while at the same time make a lot of negative assumptions about the templars/Chantry.

If you were a more objective and restrained, and put more thought in your posts, there would be no need for me to debate this with you.

even though you've been presenting every single thing about the chantry and templars as fact when in fact i see nothing more than another point of view, granted it's a very pratical point of view but a point of view nevertheless.

[ShrinkingFish]

nightcobra8928 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Because you mention those alternatives like you know everything about them, and like they are a thousand times better. And make a lot of positive assumptions about them, while at the same time make a lot of negative assumptions about the templars/Chantry.

If you were a more objective and restrained, and put more thought in your posts, there would be no need for me to debate this with you.

even though you've been presenting every single thing about the chantry and templars as fact when in fact i see nothing more than another point of view, granted it's a very pratical point of view but a point of view nevertheless.

Do not try to interject logic into their argument. You'll only disupt their flow.

[Russalka]

How is this discussion related to the Qunari at all?

[Lotion Soronarr]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Yeah, the open door thing is likely a bad call. Though one Templar per mage should be enough... That's why I support my new idea that I posted in the other thread that we're arguing in... monastaries! Make them all into a bunch of little mage monks!

One templar per mage? I don't think one templar would be enough to stop an abomination...

mage monks? Monasteries? Isn't the Circle already like a monastery in many ways?

nightcobra8928 wrote...

even though you've been
presenting every single thing about the chantry and templars as fact
when in fact i see nothing more than another point of view, granted
it's a very pratical point of view but a point of view nevertheless.

When?
I don't present conjectures as fact.

[Wittand25]

ShrinkingFish wrote...
We could establish methods of training and security that do not involve life imprisonment, there's another.

How about the idea that for every mage living there is a Templar who gets to be their personal watch dog? Once mages are trained and through the Harrowing they can then lead the lives they want, their phlacteries given to a loyal Templar, preferably one they get along with, and whereever one goes the other follows?

They could move to the same town, become neighbors, each meet a nice girl or guy, settle down, have a family (if you're into that sort of thing) and live freely.

Just an idea.

Where does the idea of life imprisonment come from ?
You meet several mages in game ,who life outside of the tower but are not apostates. It is mandatory that a young mage is trained at the tower but after the Harrowing and if the circle is sure that the mage in question can be trusted mages seem to be free to leave the tower and life somewhere else as long as they keep in touch. Most mages seem preferring to stay in the tower however, because every mage who decides to live amongst commoners must deal with the fact that every time a cow drops dead in the surrounding area he or she has a pitchfork-wielding mob breaking down the door.

[nikki191]

filaminstrel wrote...

Do the qunari really think of mages as lesser people? I thought, according to their ideals, everyone has their purpose. Mages are just afflicted with a condition where they must be watched over. Of course, even if that's the case, they might still treat them as lessers in practice even if the philosophy has no specific prescription for that.

yes thats correct. a mages purpose to them is an entertaining pet after its tongue is cut out and its properly shackled and trained

Modifié par nikki191, 01 octobre 2010 - 12:43 .

[silentassassin264]

Wittand25 wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...
We could establish methods of training and security that do not involve life imprisonment, there's another.

How about the idea that for every mage living there is a Templar who gets to be their personal watch dog? Once mages are trained and through the Harrowing they can then lead the lives they want, their phlacteries given to a loyal Templar, preferably one they get along with, and whereever one goes the other follows?

They could move to the same town, become neighbors, each meet a nice girl or guy, settle down, have a family (if you're into that sort of thing) and live freely.

Just an idea.

Where does the idea of life imprisonment come from ?
You meet several mages in game ,who life outside of the tower but are not apostates. It is mandatory that a young mage is trained at the tower but after the Harrowing and if the circle is sure that the mage in question can be trusted mages seem to be free to leave the tower and life somewhere else as long as they keep in touch. Most mages seem preferring to stay in the tower however, because every mage who decides to live amongst commoners must deal with the fact that every time a cow drops dead in the surrounding area he or she has a pitchfork-wielding mob breaking down the door.

I think you have a romanticized view of that.  Niall says at the beginning that he would like to be isolationist but the templars would just find them living off in the wild and be killed.  The only way a mage can be away from the Circle is for official Circle business.  Leaving at your whim is not official Circle business.

[Russalka]

I am still struggling to find the relevance to the topic title.

The mage who owned Shale lived outside the tower and travelled the world far and wide. Wynne only needed the First Enchanter's leave to go with the Warden, did not even seem to need any permit to go to Minrathous with Shale or stay with the King as an advisor.

I believe there were others like that as well. I do not recall any for now.

Modifié par Russalka, 01 octobre 2010 - 01:25 .

[Wittand25]

silentassassin264 wrote...
I think you have a romanticized view of that.  Niall says at the beginning that he would like to be isolationist but the templars would just find them living off in the wild and be killed.  The only way a mage can be away from the Circle is for official Circle business.  Leaving at your whim is not official Circle business.

Wilhelm, Ines,Connor in the epilogue and Wynne all could leave the circle as they pleased. Ines and Wilhelm were actually away from the tower to pursue their own hobbies (raising a family in Wilhelms case does certanly not count as circle buisness). Alistair himself in a conversation with Morrigan mentions that the circle needs accounting of all mages. That is different from requiring all the mages to live inside the towers walls..
The isolationists like Nial want away from the cantry supervision like the libertarians and that is the problem not the living outside of the tower. But as long as the whereabouts of a mage are known to the circle and the mage is not viewed as a danger leaving the circle does not seem a problem. Considering the status that mages have in the Thedas society however remaining with the circle looks like the better option for most mages, similar on how in theory elves can live outside of the alienage but seldom choose to do so.

Russalka wrote...

I am still struggling to find the relevance to the topic title.

Well the question in the title has been answered by Mr. Gaider himself, so there is little need to further discuss it  and the conversation seems to have derailed into a human rights for mages debate.

Modifié par Wittand25, 01 octobre 2010 - 01:58 .

[LobselVith8]

Wittand25 wrote...

Wilhelm, Ines,Connor in the epilogue and Wynne all could leave the circle as they pleased. Ines and Wilhelm were actually away from the tower to pursue their own hobbies (raising a family in Wilhelms case does certanly not count as circle buisness). Alistair himself in a conversation with Morrigan mentions that the circle needs accounting of all mages. That is different from requiring all the mages to live inside the towers walls..
The isolationists like Nial want away from the cantry supervision like the libertarians and that is the problem not the living outside of the tower. But as long as the whereabouts of a mage are known to the circle and the mage is not viewed as a danger leaving the circle does not seem a problem. Considering the status that mages have in the Thedas society however remaining with the circle looks like the better option for most mages, similar on how in theory elves can live outside of the alienage but seldom choose to do so.

Mages basically belong to the Circle. Connor was sent to the Circle. Wynne is a Senior Enchanter who got permission to leave the Circle in order to aid the Warden. And Wilhelm is a war hero who helped the Rebel Queen and Prince Maric during the Orlesian occupation. Gaider admitted that some Circles don't even permit mages to marry, and none of them can raise their own children. What happens to the children isn't known.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Greagoir has no oversight in the Circle Tower. There's no Seer to stop him from executing Jowan. And Cullen rules the Circle in fear if the Warden agrees to cull the Circle, and he can do that because there's no oversight.

Not necessarily.

Is there a internal police officer constantly stationed at every police station? No. Tehy act on clues and come when they are called.
Can you really tell me that it's impossible that some other templar (or mage) can repot another templar?
Can you find any evidence that this isn't so. Furthermor, if there really was no oversight, do oyu realyl think Wynne and many other mages would be so OK with it?

They're referred to as "Chantry apologists" and they "do whatever the Chantry says," as the Magi Origin points out.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
 

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

We don't know how Arlathan or the old Dales handled mages..so don't talk out of your a**.

LobselVith66 wrote...
Let's try to have a civilized conversation here, okay? Considering the leaders of the Dalish were descended from the ruling leaders of the Dales and Arlathan, and they have magical abilities.

Let's try to have a rational one (for a change).

Show me PROOF that clearly states how the ancient elves handels mages. How the Dales handled mages. How and where those mages lived (did they even live together with non-mages).  What control there was? How many mages were there?
We got FAR too little on this to make such claims.

 
As I repeatedly said, they are alternatives to the Chantry and the templars behavior towards mages. You continually state they are necessary, and the existance of these civilizations prove they aren't. The Disciples of Haven have no templars, and one can argue Kolgrim is a mage from knowing about the Ashes, and Father Eirik is a mage. Both of them hold leadership positions, and mages and non-mages are fighting side by side. Kolgrim even dismisses the Andrastian Chantry's laws on magic during conversation with him. The Dales and the Dalish clans are attempts to restore the ancient civilization of the elves, and the Keepers are the leaders of those clans, with the First at their side. Both the Keeper and the First are mages.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith66 wrote wrote...

Again, Cullen can rule the Circle in fear in the Epilogue where the Circle was culled. If he isn't a leader, he goes on a killing spree. That's the type of person who becomes Knight-Commander of the Ferelden Circle.

Mistakes happen. Hitler became the leader of German..Stalin ruled in Russia. Nero in Rome...demented, crazy peopel sometimes getting too much pwoer..happens.
Not to mention that Cullen was a pretty swell guy before his mind rape. The mages did that. So..if I follow your logic of "templars force mages to dot this" then by that extention, mages forced Cullen to do that.

Following your line of thought, the blood mages did that because of their oppression by at the hands of the templars. And you're also comparing the templar Cullen as the Knight-Commander of the Circle to Hitler and Stalin.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith66 wrote...

Again, you support the Chantry and the templars. I get it. Why do you get so defensive when I bring up an alternative to their approach on mages? Arlathan, the Dales, the Disciples of Haven, and the Dalish are alternatives to the Chantry's solution to mages. Why not reference them to show people that mages and non-mages have lived together? Why not debate an alternative, instead of supporting the current condition that murders illegal mages?

Because you mention those alternatives like you know everything about them, and like they are a thousand times better. And make a lot of positive assumptions about them, while at the same time make a lot of negative assumptions about the templars/Chantry.

If you were a more objective and restrained, and put more thought in your posts, there would be no need for me to debate this with you.

I mention the alternatives because they exist and prove that, contrary to your claims, the Chantry and the templars aren't necessary. There are mages out there living side by side with non-mages, and the world didn't end. The Disciples and the Dalish clans are merely two examples. The Chantry's method of using the templars is merely one method, and one that I find deplorable. You're welcome to think highly of them, as is your right, but it's not indisputable fact that they're the only method, and trying to force the issue as the "Word of God" is ridiculous.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 01 octobre 2010 - 02:19 .

[LobselVith8]

Russalka wrote...

How is this discussion related to the Qunari at all?

That's a fair question. Considering that nobody here can agree on the mages, how can anyone expect the Qunari to, even if Sten vouches for the Magi Warden?

[Wittand25]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Mages basically belong to the Circle. Connor was sent to the Circle. Wynne is a Senior Enchanter who got permission to leave the Circle in order to aid the Warden. And Wilhelm is a war hero who helped the Rebel Queen and Prince Maric during the Orlesian occupation. Gaider admitted that some Circles don't even permit mages to marry, and none of them can raise their own children. What happens to the children isn't known.

Wilhelm explored the deep roads on his own quite some time before he became a war hero, and then became a hero fighting on the side that was not supported by the chantry. I never said that a mage does not have to ask permission to live outside the circle, I said that permission will likely be granted as long as the mage in question is considerd trustworthy and remains in some sort of contact with the circle.
Children born inside the circle´s tower are taken from their parents and raised outside of the tower yes that is confirmed ( by the way the same is true for the Grey Wardens and most likely several other orders). Wilhelm was a known mage and was allowed to raise his son so it is safe to assume that mages living outside of the tower, who are able of supporting themselves can both marry (which apart from nobility is a rather informal affair in Ferelden anyway) and raise children. See also here :social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/141/index/4801810&lf=8

Modifié par Wittand25, 01 octobre 2010 - 02:47 .

[LobselVith8]

Wittand25 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Mages basically belong to the Circle. Connor was sent to the Circle. Wynne is a Senior Enchanter who got permission to leave the Circle in order to aid the Warden. And Wilhelm is a war hero who helped the Rebel Queen and Prince Maric during the Orlesian occupation. Gaider admitted that some Circles don't even permit mages to marry, and none of them can raise their own children. What happens to the children isn't known.

Wilhelm explored the deep roads on his own quite some time before he became a war hero, and then became a hero fighting on the side that was not supported by the chantry. I never said that a mage does not have to ask permission to live outside the circle, I said that permission will likely be granted as long as the mage in question is considerd trustworthy and remains in some sort of contact with the circle.

You're making the assumption that any mage can ask for permission to leave and that it will be granted. During the Magi Origin, Greagoir doesn't even like that Senior Enchanters are aiding in the fight against the darkspawn, and Irving calls him on it. The Uldred rebellion never would have happened if your scenerio was the case for the mages - as the unnamed blood mage says, living under the templars made her want to fight for their freedom. Mages aren't free. That's made clear when the Chantry tells the ruler of Ferelden "no" for the Magi boon and the Divine of the Chantry contemplates an Exalted March on Orzammar because of their willingness to house free mages who establish an independent Circle (if Dagna becomes a member of the Circle).

The Chantry eventually came around to supporting the rebellion, and Wilhelm is an exception because he and his golem helped the Rebel Queen and Maric during the rebellion. As Gaider admitted, only some Circles permit mages to marry, and none of them allow the mages to raise their own children. The fact that Wilhelm had a wife and child shows that his status in the war exempted him from the regulations of the Circle in that regard. Only Grey Wardens were mentioned as the exception, and that's because a Grey Warden mage is no longer part of the Circle.

David Gaider wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

What happens if they have a child (I assume the Chantry still takes it away from the couple)?

Yes, married or not the child of a mage is taken away by the Chantry.

And...

David Gaider wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Yes, married or not the child of a mage is taken away by the Chantry.

Would the same happen if the mage was also a Grey Warden, such as the Warden-Commander of DA:O and Awakenings?

A mage who is not part of the Circle is not subject to the will of the Chantry. So, no.

How about we try to steer this discussion back to the Qunari and the mages?

David Gaider wrote...

I see some wishful thinking at work, here.

The best that a bas can hope for amongst the Qunari is to be considered basalit-an-- an "honorable thing". This is a worthy foe, and one that can be negotiated with to an extent. But they are still bas, something the Qunari would consider unfortunate, and ultimately such a being would benefit from the Qun's wisdom.

The Qunari don't see a problem with treating any mage as they do, because they don't think it's bad. A mage has their place just as anyone does. So a human mage of any stripe that converted to the Qun would take their place as a saarebas. If they weren't willing to do that, then they're not really converting, are they? They would be professing to believe without actually understanding.

Now, this is with the understanding that the individual Qunari might come to understand differently than the group-- but one cannot account for the effect of the individual. I'm talking about the philosophy of the Qunari as a whole and how it would apply. If one prefers to believe that Sten would be willing or able to convince, say, the Arishok to look on a bas as something to be given special consideration-- well that's hypothetical but you're free to think so.

Apparently, the Qunari would see the mage as an "honorable thing," which leads me to believe that siding with the Qunari wouldn't be a good idea for an apostate Hawke.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 01 octobre 2010 - 03:07 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Wittand25 wrote...
Where does the idea of life imprisonment come from ?
You meet several mages in game ,who life outside of the tower but are not apostates. It is mandatory that a young mage is trained at the tower but after the Harrowing and if the circle is sure that the mage in question can be trusted mages seem to be free to leave the tower and life somewhere else as long as they keep in touch. Most mages seem preferring to stay in the tower however, because every mage who decides to live amongst commoners must deal with the fact that every time a cow drops dead in the surrounding area he or she has a pitchfork-wielding mob breaking down the door.

Those that live outside got a special permission. Usually they are outside of the tower on a mission.

And "life imprisoment"? More like "life quarantene". One can argue that it's the same, but the difference between the two is very important.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...
 What happens to the children isn't known.

They are rased by the Chantry. I wouldn't be surprised if some of them become templars or lay brothers - if they have no magical ability.

They're referred to as "Chantry apologists" and they "do whatever the Chantry says," as the Magi Origin points out.

You failed to answer the question. There is no evidence that there is no oversight.

As I repeatedly said, they are alternatives to the Chantry and the templars behavior towards mages. You continually state they are necessary, and the existance of these civilizations prove they aren't. The Disciples of Haven have no templars, and one can argue Kolgrim is a mage from knowing about the Ashes, and Father Eirik is a mage. Both of them hold leadership positions, and mages and non-mages are fighting side by side. Kolgrim even dismisses the Andrastian Chantry's laws on magic during conversation with him. The Dales and the Dalish clans are attempts to restore the ancient civilization of the elves, and the Keepers are the leaders of those clans, with the First at their side. Both the Keeper and the First are mages.

Yes, there are alternatives. Not necesarily better ones.

And I'm saying that a effective control is necessary. Someone other than the templars could do it too.

No, Kolgrim is not a mage, he is a Reaver, and no, we don't know how they threat their mages.

We don't know anything about the elves of old - how many mages they had, how those mages lives, or what methods were used to control possesion. Similar with the Dales. WE DON'T NKOW.
For all we know, they might also use the Harrowing, and they might also kill abominations on sight.

And no, methods used to control a small group are not applicable to large groups. That's basic social engineering.

Following your line of thought, the blood mages did that because of their oppression by at the hands of the templars. And you're also comparing the templar Cullen as the Knight-Commander of the Circle to Hitler and Stalin.

And templar do that because bloodmages mind rape people. See how this retarded line of reasoning goes nowhere?
And yes, I do. Not that Cullen is similar to Hitler in any way, but the point stands. Strange poeple sometimes get in places of power, even in far more modern societies and more controled and monitored institutions.
You're asking the impossible.

I mention the alternatives because they exist and prove that, contrary to your claims, the Chantry and the templars aren't necessary. You're welcome to think highly of them, as is your right, but it's not indisputable fact that they're the only method, and trying to force the issue as the "Word of God" is ridiculous.

I never said it's the only method, rather the only APPLICABLE method we know off.
At this point, they are necesary, because there is no other organization capable of taking over, nor any other method that can be implemented over such a large area and mage population and that is better.

And no, the "Word of God" was about David saying that hte Chantry is benevolent, regardless how many of you try to poaint it as the source of all evil.

[silentassassin264]

Russalka wrote...

How is this discussion related to the Qunari at all?

Well once I  brought up that my mage my not mind being on a leash depending on what she could do as a qunari, people brought up that mages might actually enjoy the circle then.  Then people got to bashing/defending the chantry.  So currently nothing at all unless you consider it a comparison to a mage under the Qun and a mage under the Circle. 

[LobselVith8]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

All you people have a very negative view on the Qunari and their practices.

I doubt it would be anything nearly as bad as all thing. The Warden would be arriving with Sten on his triumphant return to his people. Sten would speak to the Arishok about the Blight, tell him all he knew of it, with the added bonus of "And this is the guy who defeated it. He knows much more about the Blight than I do, he even killed the Archdemon, yadda yadda"

As such I believe that the Warden's status as a Grey Warden and a warrior of legend would outweigh his status as a mage at least in some regard.

Sten does admit that he has heard legends of the Grey Wardens, and the Warden's role in the Blight might play an impact on the Arishok's view of the Warden. Or he'll assume the Warden is a unicorn, too...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Jalem001 wrote...

1.  No.  Nowhere in the DA lore does it say that most people refused to convert back.  The Chantry was just surprised at how hard it was.

2.  The massacres weren't common practice, and none were ordered by the Chantry as far as we know.

Brother Genitivi disagrees with you...

"Dealing with those of the local populace which had converted to the
qunari religion proved difficult, especially as some of these had lived
under the qun now for generations, and the response by many armies was
simply to exterminate all those who had converted. Officially the
Chantry denies this, claiming most converts fled north into Rivain and
Par Vollen, but the mass graves at Nocen Fields and Marnus Pell
attest otherwise. Indeed, so many were slain at Marnus Pell that the
Veil is said to be permanently sundered, the ruins still plagued by
restless corpses to this day."

3.  You're ignoring that the Qunari did far worse.  Upon being conquored you had two options:  Submit to the Qun, or become a slave.  Those who became slaves often died of stravation or simply from the harsh treatment.  Those who submitted still had to live within the extremely rigid system of the Qunari.

Points of cultural perspective. Many who cooperated and converted to the Qun found happiness and enlightenment under it.

And to touch on your earlier post:

4.  The Qunari fear magic, and thats how the Exalted Marches against them achieved any level of success (Well that and there are way more humans than Qunari.  Quantity has a quality all of its own and all that).  The Qunari mages are little more than animals.  Their tongues are cut out (I believe), and they are kept shackled in chains (literally, not figuratively like the mages under the Chantry).  

Magic is acknowledges by the Qunari and by the Chantry as being dangerous and unpredictable. Mages are treated as second class citizens within Chantry culture. The Qunari just take the precautions a little bit farther.

Even a casual glance at the Qunari reveals an insanely autocratic society.  It's like taking the worst aspects of the Dwarves (Caste System), The Chantry (Oppression of mages), and The Imperium (Slavery)  and then making them ten times worse.  The trade off?  Some vague sense of peace as every aspect of your life is dictated to you by the Qun.

"Insanely" is a point of perspective. It is not insane to a Qunari. What you're raving against is mostly that the Qun deprives individuals of "choice" which is an abstract and undefinable concept to begin with.

No, the Qunari are totally awesome >.>.  I'm sure we'll learn more, including some positive things, but...there's really no reason to be an apologist.  They have few redeeming qualities as a people.

Happily... I disagree. I think they have many, if not more, redeeming qualities as the rest of Thedas' population. Sten is by far the best character in Dragon Age Origins. I would trust him with my life more readily than any one of the others in any situation. And he is not even the best of his race.

The player simply operates from a disadvantageous position when dealing with the Qunari as they see them only from the Chantry's point of view, a point of view closely linked to Western Culture, while the Qunari are more closely linked to more Eastern Cultures.

Many players rebel against the ideals that rule the Qunari simply because they are "other" and because they are incapable of understanding them. It takes am empathetic mind that questions all information it recieves to come to an understanding of their virtues.

That's an interesting perspective of Sten and the Qunari.

[silentassassin264]

I find it funny that people are bashing the Qunari about expanding the Qun and the options given to the conquered while defending the Chantry. They must have forgotten about what happened to the elves in the first place. The Chantry and the Qun are about the same. They just oppose each other because each believes their version is better.

[LobselVith8]

silentassassin264 wrote...

I find it funny that people are bashing the Qunari about expanding the Qun and the options given to the conquered while defending the Chantry. They must have forgotten about what happened to the elves in the first place. The Chantry and the Qun are about the same. They just oppose each other because each believes their version is better.

Considering that the elves used to be the original inhabitants of Thedas and now either live in alienages or are wanderers, I'd agree that there's little difference between the Qunari trying to spread their influence and the Chantry doing exactly the same.

[RazorrX]

I do not understand how ANY Mage (with the exception of the crazy girl in the tower who wanted to be tranquil) would EVER want to join the Qunari. I suppose there would be a few crazy folk out who think... " WOW! They cut my tongue out and put me on a leash! AWESOME!" but for the most part ... no. As much as I HATE the chantry, mages have it MUCH better with them than the Qunari.

[LobselVith8]

RazorrX wrote...

I do not understand how ANY Mage (with the exception of the crazy girl in the tower who wanted to be tranquil) would EVER want to join the Qunari. I suppose there would be a few crazy folk out who think... " WOW! They cut my tongue out and put me on a leash! AWESOME!" but for the most part ... no. As much as I HATE the chantry, mages have it MUCH better with them than the Qunari.

I think it could be the difference between a random mage and the Magi Warden going with Sten. The Dalish seem to have it much better in comparison to both; Keepers are the leaders of the Dalish clans, and they are mages. There's also the people of Rivain, who were heavily influenced by the Qunari, and not only have tolerant views of mages (according to the codex by Brother Genitivi, mages give them guidance), but have a peaceful relationship with the elves that's lead to a settlement of Dalish living on their borders.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 01 octobre 2010 - 05:13 .

[silentassassin264]

RazorrX wrote...

I do not understand how ANY Mage (with the exception of the crazy girl in the tower who wanted to be tranquil) would EVER want to join the Qunari. I suppose there would be a few crazy folk out who think... " WOW! They cut my tongue out and put me on a leash! AWESOME!" but for the most part ... no. As much as I HATE the chantry, mages have it MUCH better with them than the Qunari.

Because they don't run around chopping off mages tongues.  We have gone through this already.   They cut off the tongues of mages who do forbidden magic to keep them from getting others to follow into whatever forbidden magic they did.  Had Uldred been under the Qun (and presumably not killed that many people), they would have cut off his tongue so he wouldn't be able to offer his gift to anyone else in the first place.  The chantry kills people who do forbidden magic and you are complaining about tongues getting cut off as punishment.

[LobselVith8]

[quote]ShrinkingFish wrote...

[quote]SDNcN wrote...

[quote] From Merriam-Webster
Definition of TOTALITARIANISM1 : centralized control by an autocratic authority 2 : the political concept that the citizen should be totally subject to an absolute state authority [/quote]

The Qunari are lead by a govenment that believes strongly in totalitarian principles and controls every aspect of their lives.
[/quote]

Sorry for rehashing this, I'm really not interested in arguing about it anymore. But I just wanted to clarify a few things on this.

The main aspects of a Totalitarian State is that the power is centralized, usually held entirely by one single person (most commonly), party, faction or class, and is most often marked by the central power regulating free speech, controlling the economy and maintaining a widespread status of terrorism that it enacts on its own people. As well as many other aspects.

I agree that certain aspects of the Qunari state are Totalitarian is nature as the Qun regulates many aspects of life. However, they lack many of the negative aspects that commonly plague Totalitarian states. They respect the importance of the whole, decentralize power to a great extent as each branch of the culture governs different aspects of life, and do not abuse the majority of their people (their treatment of mages being an understandable extreme, one might fault the Qunari for being overly cautious in this regard, although there is nothing to suggest that some Qunari mages don't accept their social position and understand and accept the limitations that are put upon them for the good of their people). And most of all the governing party does not enforce their rule with acts of state terrorism, or at least, not that we know of. And most Qunari seem to view their lives positively, their people positively, and their government positively if Sten is any indication. Therefore their government could be viewed as the ideal version of the Totalitarian government.

And their regulation of everything both personal and private is, I think, is a bit of a hyperbole. In fact, one converted follower of the Qun suggested that there is more personal choice and freedom with life as a Qunari than when under the Chantry, saying:

"For all my life I followed the Maker wherever his path may lead me,’
he writes, ‘but in the faith of the qun I have found the means to travel
my own path. If only all my people could understand what it is the
qunari offer us."

The reason I take issue with the use of the word itself is because it is politically charged at this point. Due to the horrors perpetrated by Totalitarian governments throughout histroy most people think of such a government as being the embodiment of evil. So to use the word in any context for any government changes the nature of the conversation.

[/quote]

There are a lot of views made about the Qun and the Qunari in DA, and the people of Rivain seem to have been changed for the better by their experience with them, given their friendly relationship with the Dalish and their tolerant views of magic.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]Wittand25 wrote...
Where does the idea of life imprisonment come from ?
You meet several mages in game ,who life outside of the tower but are not apostates. It is mandatory that a young mage is trained at the tower but after the Harrowing and if the circle is sure that the mage in question can be trusted mages seem to be free to leave the tower and life somewhere else as long as they keep in touch. Most mages seem preferring to stay in the tower however, because every mage who decides to live amongst commoners must deal with the fact that every time a cow drops dead in the surrounding area he or she has a pitchfork-wielding mob breaking down the door.
[/quote]

Those that live outside got a special permission. Usually they are outside of the tower on a mission.

And "life imprisoment"? More like "life quarantene". One can argue that it's the same, but the difference between the two is very important.

[/quote]

That must explain why the VO for the Magi Origin refers to the Circle as a prison.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
 What happens to the children isn't known.[/quote]

They are rased by the Chantry. I wouldn't be surprised if some of them become templars or lay brothers - if they have no magical ability. [/quote]

That's your theory about what happens to the children.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

They're referred to as "Chantry apologists" and they "do whatever the Chantry says," as the Magi Origin points out.[/quote]

You failed to answer the question. There is no evidence that there is no oversight. [/quote]

Considering that Knight-Commander Greagoir can command the templars to aid the Warden against the Blight, and Cullen can replace him after going insane, I'd say there's no one in the Circle Tower who has a higher rank. Greagoir does to no one to ask for permission in aiding the Warden, and he ultimately determines the fate of Irving and the entire Circle of Magi during A Broken Circle. If there was someone of a higher rank, Cullen would have tried to counter his order, but there wasn't.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

As I repeatedly said, they are alternatives to the Chantry and the templars behavior towards mages. You continually state they are necessary, and the existance of these civilizations prove they aren't. The Disciples of Haven have no templars, and one can argue Kolgrim is a mage from knowing about the Ashes, and Father Eirik is a mage. Both of them hold leadership positions, and mages and non-mages are fighting side by side. Kolgrim even dismisses the Andrastian Chantry's laws on magic during conversation with him. The Dales and the Dalish clans are attempts to restore the ancient civilization of the elves, and the Keepers are the leaders of those clans, with the First at their side. Both the Keeper and the First are mages.[/quote]

Yes, there are alternatives. Not necesarily better ones.

And I'm saying that a effective control is necessary. Someone other than the templars could do it too. [/quote]

There are examples of mages living with non-mages and no templars or Chantry were necessary. The people of Rivain are lead by mages, based on Genitivi's codex, and they have a good relationship with the Dalish elves who have made a semi-permanent settlement on their border. If you want to support the Chantry and its treatment of mages, that's your right. Personally, I dislike the treatment of the Chantry towards the mages of the Circle. You're welcome to disagree. There are alternatives that work: The people of Rivan have mages, and they have a good relationship with the Dalish. The Dalish clans are led by elven mages. Father Eirik led the Chantry of Haven.

And you actually stated the mages being in the tower was necessary, which I disagree with:

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Dear lord, listen to yourself. Your arguments make no sense whatsoever. Do you realsie that containing the mages in a tower is NECESSARY? The Alternative is far worse for everyone!
[/quote]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

No, Kolgrim is not a mage, he is a Reaver, and no, we don't know how they threat their mages. [/quote]

We know Father Eirik is a Reaver and presided over the Chantry of Haven. We know they have mages who fight in the name of the Dragon Andraste. We know Kolgrim is their leader, and he also knew the Urn is ignored or destroyed, which can be inferred to be a result of magical ability. Kolgrim also dismisses the Chantry's views on magic when it's mentioned that blood magic is illegal.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

We don't know anything about the elves of old - how many mages they had, how those mages lives, or what methods were used to control possesion. Similar with the Dales. WE DON'T NKOW.
For all we know, they might also use the Harrowing, and they might also kill abominations on sight. [/quote]

We know the Dalish are lead by mages, and the Keepers are descended from the leaders of the Dales and Arlathan. It's also been said that ancient elves were great wielders of magic (Magi Origin).

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Following your line of thought, the blood mages did that because of their oppression by at the hands of the templars. And you're also comparing the templar Cullen as the Knight-Commander of the Circle to Hitler and Stalin.[/quote]

And templar do that because bloodmages mind rape people. See how this retarded line of reasoning goes nowhere?
And yes, I do. Not that Cullen is similar to Hitler in any way, but the point stands. Strange poeple sometimes get in places of power, even in far more modern societies and more controled and monitored institutions.
You're asking the impossible. [/quote]

Except it ultimately comes back to templars having control over the lives of mages, or if we're going that far back, Tevinter humans enslaving the ancient elves of Arlathan and Thedas.

For me, the fact that someone as mentally unhinged as Cullen can have authority over men, women, and children of the Circle and rule it in fear as Knight-Commander adds to my reasons for supporting the independence of the Circle of Magi. Alistair and Anora support the idea, as well, since both of them will command Greagoir to allow the Circle to be free in the US ending, and both support the royal boon if the Magi Warden asks for it.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I mention the alternatives because they exist and prove that, contrary to your claims, the Chantry and the templars aren't necessary. You're welcome to think highly of them, as is your right, but it's not indisputable fact that they're the only method, and trying to force the issue as the "Word of God" is ridiculous.[/quote]

I never said it's the only method, rather the only APPLICABLE method we know off.
At this point, they are necesary, because there is no other organization capable of taking over, nor any other method that can be implemented over such a large area and mage population and that is better.

And no, the "Word of God" was about David saying that hte Chantry is benevolent, regardless how many of you try to poaint it as the source of all evil. [/quote]

Actually, you said:

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Dear lord, listen to yourself. Your arguments make no sense whatsoever. Do you realsie that containing the mages in a tower is NECESSARY? The Alternative is far worse for everyone!
[/quote]

As for Word of God, wasn't it the Word of God that the Architect had one hand instead of two? That wasn't the case in Awakening. Niall said apostates were killed, and that was changed in Awakening. Everyone has their own view on the Chantry, but you can't force your opinion of the Chantry onto everyone else.