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[EmperorSahlertz]

Well pretty much all magic is illegal for the Qunari. So any non-Qunari mage would get his tounge cut out if he tried to join them...

[LobselVith8]

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Well pretty much all magic is illegal for the Qunari. So any non-Qunari mage would get his tounge cut out if he tried to join them...[/quote]

They certainly are limited by what they can do, but I don't think all magic is illegal. According to Mary Kirby:

[quote]Mary Kirby wrote...

[quote]Addai67 wrote...

I'm wondering why mages have their tongues cut out. DA mages don't seem to require incantations to work spells, so not being able to speak wouldn't seem to be a deterrent to rogue magic.[/quote]

It doesn't stop them from doing magic. It stops a mage who has been possessed by a demon from communicating and possibly corrupting someone else, as Uldred did.

[/quote]

I thought I might include a few more quotes to help with this discussion:

[quote]Mary Kirby wrote...

[quote]Anarya wrote...

Gonna go out on a limb and guess forbidden magic is anything you do without being commanded to by your handler.

[/quote]

This would be the correct answer. The Qunari view saarebas as if they were poisonous snakes. They keep them around: You need a snake's venom to make antivenom, and you need mages to fight magic. But they never believe for a second that the saarebas are anything but a threat to themselves and to innocent people.

[/quote]

[quote]David Gaider wrote...

[quote]attend wrote...
Maybe I am making incorrect assunptions but that would give the Tamassrans an incredible amount of influence. They choose the pairings, handle the upbring and education, and determine the roles of the next generation.[/quote]

They might not see it the same way, but yes-- the Tamassrans wield a huge amount of influence. It's also a female gender role (as all administrative tasks are) which might lead an outsider to conclude that female qunari rule their society. Qunari don't, however, look on ruleship quite the same way. The brain could be said to rule the body... but so does the heart, the lungs, the stomach. They are part of the whole.



[quote]What happens if a large majority of the creche does not provide candidates for a much needed role. Would they be forced to accept a life/role they were not meant for? For example say healers.[/quote]


If it was a task within the confines of that gender, yes. Even then a qunari might do it if the need was great enough-- though they would feel a task belonging to another gender beneath them. A male qunari will farm, if he must, just as a female qunari will fight. They won't like it, however.



[quote]What about the mages? Are they among those defeated or do the Qunari have their own?[/quote]


They have their own mages. The saarebas (from the word "bas" or "thing/object) are considered defective tools-- but the qunari don't waste those, either.

[/quote]

[quote]David Gaider wrote...

[quote]Dave of Canada wrote...
Yeah but Templars keep them on leashes as well, what's the difference between both?[/quote]

The qunari mages are literally kept on leashes, held by an arvaarad (their "handler", if you will). The templars only keep mages on figurative leashes.



[quote]Do the Qunari allow the Mages to practice and hone their abilities and give them positions where their powers will be useful, or shun the use of magic and just give them simple menial tasks like chef / bard?[/quote]


I think it would be better to think of qunari mages as trained attack dogs.



[quote]And if they DO use magic, do they allow it for fighting purposes and allow the Female Qunari to fight with their talents (If they can be mages)?[/quote]


A female qunari who is a mage is no longer female. She is saarebas-- a "dangerous thing", not even a person really. So, yes, female qunari do fight with their magic, but they're considered part of the arvaarad the same way a sword would be part of the warrior.
[/quote]

Modifié par LobselVith8, 01 octobre 2010 - 05:23 .

[tmp7704]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

If he actually cared he could force the issue. Of course this would cause a religious schism to occur between the Orlesian Chantry and the Fereldan Chantry, somewhat like the schism between the Tevinter and Orlesian Andrtastean faith. Fereldan would be forced to establish their own Divine to give them supreme authority over the religion within their borders and require the military and public support to defend this schism.

It could be done. It would just mean a heap of trouble.

Keep in mind such schism would very likely be followed with Exalted March, one which Ferelden would find very hard to oppose given large part of their army (and country infrastructure) got annihilated in the Blight. Even if Ferelden was in good shape, that's still handing a powerful neighbour excuse to essentially invade and enslave weaker country again, and shortly after previous such treatment ended.

(getting Tevinter involved in this would be pretty reckless too for more than one reason -- Tevinter is busy holding back the nearby Qunari, plus in case people forgot it had similar hold on Ferelden in the past Orlais had until recently. Help Tevinter remove Orlais from the picture and you basically bring back the "evil wizard empire" to its stronger state)

All in all, "heap of trouble" is putting it mildly, and it'd be quite self-entitlement for the mages to think well-being of the few of them is worth putting populations at large through that.

[LobselVith8]

tmp7704 wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

If he actually cared he could force the issue. Of course this would cause a religious schism to occur between the Orlesian Chantry and the Fereldan Chantry, somewhat like the schism between the Tevinter and Orlesian Andrtastean faith. Fereldan would be forced to establish their own Divine to give them supreme authority over the religion within their borders and require the military and public support to defend this schism.

It could be done. It would just mean a heap of trouble.

Keep in mind such schism would very likely be followed with Exalted March, one which Ferelden would find very hard to oppose given large part of their army (and country infrastructure) got annihilated in the Blight. Even if Ferelden was in good shape, that's still handing a powerful neighbour excuse to essentially invade and enslave weaker country again, and shortly after previous such treatment ended.

(getting Tevinter involved in this would be pretty reckless too for more than one reason -- Tevinter is busy holding back the nearby Qunari, plus in case people forgot it had similar hold on Ferelden in the past Orlais had until recently. Help Tevinter remove Orlais from the picture and you basically bring back the "evil wizard empire" to its stronger state)

All in all, "heap of trouble" is putting it mildly, and it'd be quite self-entitlement for the mages to think well-being of the few of them is worth putting populations at large through that.

That scenerio doesn't take into account the actions of the mages themselves. The mages were a vital part of the Andrastian Chantry's ability to defeat the Qunari in the New Exalted Marches. If the ruler of Ferelden tried to force the issue of the Magi boon, since these are Ferelden citizens we're talking about, it could cause an insurrection among the mages of the six Circles located within Orlais, and possibly every Circle across Thedas. It's also a factor of whether Empress Celene I would even commit any soldiers against Ferelden, given her attitude in her correspondence with King Cailan of making peace despite the occupation that ended thirty years ago, and I'm certain the Dalish all across Thedas would love an excuse to regain their lost territory from Orlais. The ruler of Ferelden has also given the entire arling of Amaranthine to the Grey Wardens, making the Commander of the Grey the de facto Arl of Amaranthine.

Regardless of what factors would play into this scenerio, it seems ridiculous that a Magi boon is offered in DA:O and then we're told on a forum "nope, doesn't happen," especially when, in the US ending, the ruler actually commands Greagoir to leave the Circle after the new tower is built, and Greagoir concedes to the new ruler.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
They are rased by the Chantry. I wouldn't be surprised if some of them become templars or lay brothers - if they have no magical ability.

That's your theory about what happens to the children.

I'm pretty sure David mentioned it at some point. Would have to look around, but it makes sense.
 
I mean, why would they kill them? I know you like the child murdering theory, but really...why? With proper guidance, children can grow into productive and usefull individuals.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Considering that Knight-Commander Greagoir can command the templars to aid the Warden against the Blight, and Cullen can replace him after going insane, I'd say there's no one in the Circle Tower who has a higher rank. Greagoir does to no one to ask for permission in aiding the Warden, and he ultimately determines the fate of Irving and the entire Circle of Magi during A Broken Circle. If there was someone of a higher rank, Cullen would have tried to counter his order, but there wasn't.

And THAT is your proof?
That Cullen didn't complain to someone higher? Do you realise how stupid that is? It's like saying "there's no one above the Lt. Commander, because the seargent didn't complain".
Not to mention that that someone higher was probably in Denerim, so Cullen woulkd have to go for a long walk to complain.
Also, Cullen was a level-headed and promising templar before the mind-rape. No one could predict such a drastic change...I was certanly surprised at the Epilogue.

There are examples of mages living with non-mages and no templars or Chantry were necessary. The people of Rivain are lead by mages, based on Genitivi's codex, and they have a good relationship with the Dalish elves who have made a semi-permanent settlement on their border. If you want to support the Chantry and its treatment of mages, that's your right. Personally, I dislike the treatment of the Chantry towards the mages of the Circle. You're welcome to disagree. There are alternatives that work: The people of Rivan have mages, and they have a good relationship with the Dalish. The Dalish clans are led by elven mages. Father Eirik led the Chantry of Haven.

And you actually stated the mages being in the tower was necessary, which I disagree with:

And again, the exact methods AND their effectiveness are unknown to us. How good that alternatives work - we can only guess.

And yes, mages in the tower are necessary. Logistical and containment issues when policing two mages that are always together and a hundderd mages that are spread around the country and COMPLETELY different.

We know Father Eirik is a Reaver and presided over the Chantry of Haven. We know they have mages who fight in the name of the Dragon Andraste. We know Kolgrim is their leader, and he also knew the Urn is ignored or destroyed, which can be inferred to be a result of magical ability. Kolgrim also dismisses the Chantry's views on magic when it's mentioned that blood magic is illegal.

Reaver = warrior specialization. Kolgrim is not a mage. And non-mages can have an oppinion on magic too....

We know the Dalish are lead by mages, and the Keepers are descended from the leaders of the Dales and Arlathan. It's also been said that ancient elves were great wielders of magic (Magi Origin).

Yes, and do you realise how little that is?
How many ancient elves were mages? Where did they live? How were the mages trained and controled? We don't know those things.

For all we know, Arlathan elves might have had their own circles!

[ShrinkingFish]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Yeah, the open door thing is likely a bad call. Though one Templar per mage should be enough... That's why I support my new idea that I posted in the other thread that we're arguing in... monastaries! Make them all into a bunch of little mage monks!

One templar per mage? I don't think one templar would be enough to stop an abomination...

mage monks? Monasteries? Isn't the Circle already like a monastery in many ways?

In many ways yes. But the Circles mostly seem focused on turning mages into weapons that the Chantry can then use to protect their interests. My idea for monastaries are would be more like Buddhist monastaries. Mages wouldn't learn magic but learn meditation and how to strip away their bodily and mental needs. Thus making them damn near immune to demonic temptations and possession.

Also, yes, it would take more than one Templar to stop an abomination, surely. But the Templar's would be mostly watching their wards very closely to detect any forms of weakness. Mages are most vulnerable in times of stress, when their pride, desire, rage etc overwhelm them and give their corresponding demons openings into their psychies. The Templar would be there to insure that the mage recovers from these times or dies before the demon can fully take hold of them.

After all, it appears that demons cannot simply posses mages by force, but must have the mages consent on some level or another in order to take them.

[Daerog]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Yeah, the open door thing is likely a bad call. Though one Templar per mage should be enough... That's why I support my new idea that I posted in the other thread that we're arguing in... monastaries! Make them all into a bunch of little mage monks!

One templar per mage? I don't think one templar would be enough to stop an abomination...

mage monks? Monasteries? Isn't the Circle already like a monastery in many ways?

In many ways yes. But the Circles mostly seem focused on turning mages into weapons that the Chantry can then use to protect their interests. My idea for monastaries are would be more like Buddhist monastaries. Mages wouldn't learn magic but learn meditation and how to strip away their bodily and mental needs. Thus making them damn near immune to demonic temptations and possession.

Also, yes, it would take more than one Templar to stop an abomination, surely. But the Templar's would be mostly watching their wards very closely to detect any forms of weakness. Mages are most vulnerable in times of stress, when their pride, desire, rage etc overwhelm them and give their corresponding demons openings into their psychies. The Templar would be there to insure that the mage recovers from these times or dies before the demon can fully take hold of them.

After all, it appears that demons cannot simply posses mages by force, but must have the mages consent on some level or another in order to take them.

The enchanters teach pupils how to use their gifts. Whether they engage in combat or botany is up to the mage, but when people are drafted to war against invaders, they don't always have much choice, mage or nonmage. To not teach mages about their magic and only teach them to resist possession, while safe, does seem a waste. Even the qunari think it would be a waste to not use such a gift. As for forced possession, I don't think those mages who were forced into abominations by "Uldred" will agree that they gave any form of consent, being tricked or otherwise. Looked like they were forced, with outside help of course, but it seems that consent isn't needed.

[ShrinkingFish]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Yeah, the open door thing is likely a bad call. Though one Templar per mage should be enough... That's why I support my new idea that I posted in the other thread that we're arguing in... monastaries! Make them all into a bunch of little mage monks!

One templar per mage? I don't think one templar would be enough to stop an abomination...

mage monks? Monasteries? Isn't the Circle already like a monastery in many ways?

In many ways yes. But the Circles mostly seem focused on turning mages into weapons that the Chantry can then use to protect their interests. My idea for monastaries are would be more like Buddhist monastaries. Mages wouldn't learn magic but learn meditation and how to strip away their bodily and mental needs. Thus making them damn near immune to demonic temptations and possession.

Also, yes, it would take more than one Templar to stop an abomination, surely. But the Templar's would be mostly watching their wards very closely to detect any forms of weakness. Mages are most vulnerable in times of stress, when their pride, desire, rage etc overwhelm them and give their corresponding demons openings into their psychies. The Templar would be there to insure that the mage recovers from these times or dies before the demon can fully take hold of them.

After all, it appears that demons cannot simply posses mages by force, but must have the mages consent on some level or another in order to take them.

The enchanters teach pupils how to use their gifts. Whether they engage in combat or botany is up to the mage, but when people are drafted to war against invaders, they don't always have much choice, mage or nonmage. To not teach mages about their magic and only teach them to resist possession, while safe, does seem a waste. Even the qunari think it would be a waste to not use such a gift. As for forced possession, I don't think those mages who were forced into abominations by "Uldred" will agree that they gave any form of consent, being tricked or otherwise. Looked like they were forced, with outside help of course, but it seems that consent isn't needed.

As a matter of fact I would argue that they did indeed need to consent to the possession. Remember that Uldred simply tortured them until they gave in, unwilling to take any more pain, and so agreed to "accept his gift". He could not force the demons into their bodies, only force them, through torture and the promise of more, to give up and allow it to happen.

[Daerog]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

As a matter of fact I would argue that they did indeed need to consent to the possession. Remember that Uldred simply tortured them until they gave in, unwilling to take any more pain, and so agreed to "accept his gift". He could not force the demons into their bodies, only force them, through torture and the promise of more, to give up and allow it to happen.

They did torture, I did forget about that. Uldred did talk about "breaking" them. It's all about losing that mental barrier I guess, which is best done through manipulation or the person accepting it. Guess you are right on that, we have yet to see a possession that was forced in the sense that the demon just came steamrolling in out of nowhere. Which is why one must "keep their wits" when travelling the Fade, which was nice advice given to the mage from that Pride demon in the origin.

Edit: To make this post more on topic. I guess the qunari think the best way to avoid a mage being possessed is to just completely sap their individual will in the first place? Or do they not care/know? Don't see how one gains strong willpower by being treated like a beast. Can't even be stubborn as a mage in the qunari culture, you have a handler and a leash.

Modifié par DaerogTheDhampir, 01 octobre 2010 - 11:31 .

[ShrinkingFish]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

As a matter of fact I would argue that they did indeed need to consent to the possession. Remember that Uldred simply tortured them until they gave in, unwilling to take any more pain, and so agreed to "accept his gift". He could not force the demons into their bodies, only force them, through torture and the promise of more, to give up and allow it to happen.

They did torture, I did forget about that. Uldred did talk about "breaking" them. It's all about losing that mental barrier I guess, which is best done through manipulation or the person accepting it. Guess you are right on that, we have yet to see a possession that was forced in the sense that the demon just came steamrolling in out of nowhere. Which is why one must "keep their wits" when travelling the Fade, which was nice advice given to the mage from that Pride demon in the origin.

Exactly. The rage demon that tried to take over the mage directly was no threat to possession. The pride demon that tried to trick and manipulate the mage was the true threat.

So yes, "keeping your wits" is important. Demons will tell any sort of lie they wish to ensnare a mage. Be deceptive in ways unimaginable outside the Fade. They are the ultimate con artists, but instead of being after your money, they are after your very identities. They aren't bank robbers who smash open the vault and take what they want. They're the ones that convince you that you want what they offer, that convince you that you're in control, then, when the final cards are down... you've got the losing hand.

[thegreateski]

I imagine that they would nod, accept the mage into the Qunari society . . . and then cut his tounge out and put him on a leash.

[LobselVith8]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering that Knight-Commander Greagoir can command the templars to aid the Warden against the Blight, and Cullen can replace him after going insane, I'd say there's no one in the Circle Tower who has a higher rank. Greagoir does to no one to ask for permission in aiding the Warden, and he ultimately determines the fate of Irving and the entire Circle of Magi during A Broken Circle. If there was someone of a higher rank, Cullen would have tried to counter his order, but there wasn't.[/quote]

And THAT is your proof?
That Cullen didn't complain to someone higher? Do you realise how stupid that is? It's like saying "there's no one above the Lt. Commander, because the seargent didn't complain".
Not to mention that that someone higher was probably in Denerim, so Cullen woulkd have to go for a long walk to complain.
Also, Cullen was a level-headed and promising templar before the mind-rape. No one could predict such a drastic change...I was certanly surprised at the Epilogue. [/quote]

I notice you make an accusation and then change your story to support your claims, just like when you claimed the Mages Collective was run by apostates and abominations, and then changed your claim to members likely turning into abominations. You said:

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
You mean the bunch full of blood mages and abominations that hires other people to take care of their mess? [/quote]

and you changed your story to:

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I never did that. I said that abominations come from ALL mages, and if mage circles can become abominations, so can hedge mages, apostates and members of the Collective. There is no way to make oneself immune asdie from Tranquilisaton. [/quote]

You and I are discussing if there's anyone of a higher rank within the templars assembled at the Circle Tower, not all of Thedas. There's absolutely no evidence that there's anyone of a higher rank than him within the templars residing at the Circle Tower. Greagoir was giving all the orders, and specifically said he was the Knight-Commander. He's also continually referenced during the Magi Origin has having more authority than First Enchanter Irving. Do you have any proof to show otherwise?

Regarding Cullen, they made him Knight-Commander. He's ruling the Circle in fear. You're telling me no one could predict that an emotional man who was tortured by abominations and thought that all the mages of the Circle had demons lying dormant was unstable?

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
They are rased by the Chantry. I wouldn't be surprised if some of them become templars or lay brothers - if they have no magical ability. [/quote]

That's your theory about what happens to the children.[/quote]

I'm pretty sure David mentioned it at some point. Would have to look around, but it makes sense.
 
I mean, why would they kill them? I know you like the child murdering theory, but really...why? With proper guidance, children can grow into productive and usefull individuals. [/quote]

I said, for all we know, they kill them, because we don't know what they do.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

There are examples of mages living with non-mages and no templars or Chantry were necessary. The people of Rivain are lead by mages, based on Genitivi's codex, and they have a good relationship with the Dalish elves who have made a semi-permanent settlement on their border. If you want to support the Chantry and its treatment of mages, that's your right. Personally, I dislike the treatment of the Chantry towards the mages of the Circle. You're welcome to disagree. There are alternatives that work: The people of Rivan have mages, and they have a good relationship with the Dalish. The Dalish clans are led by elven mages. Father Eirik led the Chantry of Haven.

And you actually stated the mages being in the tower was necessary, which I disagree with:[/quote]

And again, the exact methods AND their effectiveness are unknown to us. How good that alternatives work - we can only guess.

And yes, mages in the tower are necessary. Logistical and containment issues when policing two mages that are always together and a hundderd mages that are spread around the country and COMPLETELY different. [/quote]

Considering that the lore all begins with one game and two novels, one could argue we really don't have sufficient information about anything. The writers change things all the time - the Qunari now have horns, there are Seers now, and I'm certain we'll see other changes. Based on what we do know, Arlathan and the Dales were self-sufficient and didn't have any version of the templars or the Chantry; the fact that the Dalish clans are lead by mages, and their intent is to restore the glory of the past, attests to this. So do the mages and non-mages working side by side at Haven, and we're already privy to the codex that mentions Rivain has mages living among non-mages.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

We know Father Eirik is a Reaver and presided over the Chantry of Haven. We know they have mages who fight in the name of the Dragon Andraste. We know Kolgrim is their leader, and he also knew the Urn is ignored or destroyed, which can be inferred to be a result of magical ability. Kolgrim also dismisses the Chantry's views on magic when it's mentioned that blood magic is illegal.[/quote]

Reaver = warrior specialization. Kolgrim is not a mage. And non-mages can have an oppinion on magic too.... [/quote]

I didn't realize that in lore, Kolgrim has bound by game mechanics because, in that case, Zathrian isn't really a Keeper of a Dalish clan - he's strictly a blood mage, nothing more. And Kolgrim didn't have an opinion, he knew the Ashes were either destroyed or left alone.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

We know the Dalish are lead by mages, and the Keepers are descended from the leaders of the Dales and Arlathan. It's also been said that ancient elves were great wielders of magic (Magi Origin).[/quote]

Yes, and do you realise how little that is?
How many ancient elves were mages? Where did they live? How were the mages trained and controled? We don't know those things. [/quote]

How many templars are in Thedas? Where did Greagoir come from? How did he become the Knight-Commander? How many templars are trained and how many reside at the Circle and oversee the mages? We don't know these things, either.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

For all we know, Arlathan elves might have had their own circles!
[/quote]

They had drug addicts watching over children? Yes, that must explain why the Dalish are going to such lengths to have Keepers as their leaders and doing nothing to emulate the Chantry Circles...

[ShrinkingFish]

LobselVith8 wrote...

They had drug addicts watching over children? Yes, that must explain why the Dalish are going to such lengths to have Keepers as their leaders and doing nothing to emulate the Chantry Circles...

Sorry to interject into your discussion, but I wanted to talk to you about the underlined bit.

You keep talking about the Templars being drug addicts and how this is a danger. But it isn't like Lyrium makes you high, all it does is cause a dependancy. Templars are therefore only dangerous when they do not get their fix. This is simply a method of control that the Chantry uses to keep their Templars in check. They get them addicted and then hold the monopoly on Lyrium trade, meaning, once trained, a Templar can never leave the Chantry without risking withdrawal and psychosis.

As such, the Templars are just as much prisoners of the Chantry as the mages are. Both are tools that the Chantry has found ways to control, both used by the Chantry as they see fit. Weapons to be unleashed against threats to their power.

Also... while we're discussion it, consider the following: phylacteries... these are small vials of a mage's blood that allow Templars to track those mages wherever they may go. Essentially it is a small portion of that mages life essence which the Templar's use to track the greater life essence of the mage himself. And Templar's are sworn to secrecy upon their training, the Chantry keeping a close guard on their Templar training secrets, Alistair not knowing much of the Templars as he never took his final vows. It sounds to me like the Chantry makes use of blood magic when they see fit as the phylacteries seem very closely tied to the same magical sciences that rule blood magic. So it is only illegal when someone else uses it without their permission.

[LobselVith8]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

They had drug addicts watching over children? Yes, that must explain why the Dalish are going to such lengths to have Keepers as their leaders and doing nothing to emulate the Chantry Circles...

Sorry to interject into your discussion, but I wanted to talk to you about the underlined bit.

You keep talking about the Templars being drug addicts and how this is a danger. But it isn't like Lyrium makes you high, all it does is cause a dependancy. Templars are therefore only dangerous when they do not get their fix. This is simply a method of control that the Chantry uses to keep their Templars in check. They get them addicted and then hold the monopoly on Lyrium trade, meaning, once trained, a Templar can never leave the Chantry without risking withdrawal and psychosis.

I understand your point. However, my issue is with the Chantry's role regarding mages, who have no rights to inherit a title or land, and basically belong to the Circle that dictates whether they can marry (some forbid it) and none of them allow them to raise their children. It's frequently said that magic is a curse, and one of the mages sees her ability only with distain in the Magi Origin. Regarding the templars, the danger for the mages is that they have no real oversight - they are the military arm of the Chantry, and mages essentially belong to the Chantry unless they become Grey Wardens. The fact that someone as mentally unbalanced as Cullen (after Broken Circle) can become the new Knight-Commander and rule the Circle in fear is an issue for me.

ShrinkingFish wrote...

As such, the Templars are just as much prisoners of the Chantry as the mages are. Both are tools that the Chantry has found ways to control, both used by the Chantry as they see fit. Weapons to be unleashed against threats to their power.

Also... while we're discussion it, consider the following: phylacteries... these are small vials of a mage's blood that allow Templars to track those mages wherever they may go. Essentially it is a small portion of that mages life essence which the Templar's use to track the greater life essence of the mage himself. And Templar's are sworn to secrecy upon their training, the Chantry keeping a close guard on their Templar training secrets, Alistair not knowing much of the Templars as he never took his final vows. It sounds to me like the Chantry makes use of blood magic when they see fit as the phylacteries seem very closely tied to the same magical sciences that rule blood magic. So it is only illegal when someone else uses it without their permission.

It has been acknowledged by David Gaider that the phylacteries are a form of blood magic.

[ShrinkingFish]

LobselVith8 wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

They had drug addicts watching over children? Yes, that must explain why the Dalish are going to such lengths to have Keepers as their leaders and doing nothing to emulate the Chantry Circles...

Sorry to interject into your discussion, but I wanted to talk to you about the underlined bit.

You keep talking about the Templars being drug addicts and how this is a danger. But it isn't like Lyrium makes you high, all it does is cause a dependancy. Templars are therefore only dangerous when they do not get their fix. This is simply a method of control that the Chantry uses to keep their Templars in check. They get them addicted and then hold the monopoly on Lyrium trade, meaning, once trained, a Templar can never leave the Chantry without risking withdrawal and psychosis.

I understand your point. However, my issue is with the Chantry's role regarding mages, who have no rights to inherit a title or land, and basically belong to the Circle that dictates whether they can marry (some forbid it) and none of them allow them to raise their children. It's frequently said that magic is a curse, and one of the mages sees her ability only with distain in the Magi Origin. Regarding the templars, the danger for the mages is that they have no real oversight - they are the military arm of the Chantry, and mages essentially belong to the Chantry unless they become Grey Wardens. The fact that someone as mentally unbalanced as Cullen (after Broken Circle) can become the new Knight-Commander and rule the Circle in fear is an issue for me.

I wasn't arguing against your point. I agree that the possiblity of Cullum becoming Knight-Commander of the Circle is disgusting. If people were paying proper attention, or if they are paying attention if people actually cared, then he would have been shipped off to some Chantry is a small village somewhere to look after farmers and the like. Not to deal with mages ever again.

I was just pointing out that the Templars are just as much prisoners as the mages, it is just different for them. They cannot go anywhere the Chantry does not order them to go. They cannot do anything the Chantry does not order them to do. They take what freedoms they can get away with, but mostly Templar's are subject to the whim of the Chantry, just like mages. And just like the mages, they are a tool. And Templars also cannot escape the Chantry unless the Grey Warden's conscript them.

ShrinkingFish wrote...

As such, the Templars are just as much prisoners of the Chantry as the mages are. Both are tools that the Chantry has found ways to control, both used by the Chantry as they see fit. Weapons to be unleashed against threats to their power.

Also... while we're discussion it, consider the following: phylacteries... these are small vials of a mage's blood that allow Templars to track those mages wherever they may go. Essentially it is a small portion of that mages life essence which the Templar's use to track the greater life essence of the mage himself. And Templar's are sworn to secrecy upon their training, the Chantry keeping a close guard on their Templar training secrets, Alistair not knowing much of the Templars as he never took his final vows. It sounds to me like the Chantry makes use of blood magic when they see fit as the phylacteries seem very closely tied to the same magical sciences that rule blood magic. So it is only illegal when someone else uses it without their permission.

It has been acknowledged by David Gaider that the phylacteries are a form of blood magic.

Ha! Neat! My conspiracy theories pan out for once!

[Asepsis]

I think they'd treat the mage the same as they'd treat any other Qunari mage IF the character wanted to be Qunari. I doubt they'd do anything if he/she was just visiting, although I'm sure they'd limit the interaction the mage would be allowed to have with the general population.



The phylactery info is awesome, I didn't know that was confirmed, cool! I'm so daft I didn't think it was linked to blood magic since the Chantry is so against it supposedly.



Also, Tranquil are the equivalent to having your tongue cut out in my opinion.

[tool_bot]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

It has been acknowledged by David Gaider that the phylacteries are a form of blood magic.

Ha! Neat! My conspiracy theories pan out for once!

Validation!

I argued that way back in some Chantry thread and everyone was like 'you're thinking to much about' 'you just hate the Chantry' blahblah. But ha! Take that, doubters!

[ShrinkingFish]

Asepsis wrote...

I think they'd treat the mage the same as they'd treat any other Qunari mage IF the character wanted to be Qunari. I doubt they'd do anything if he/she was just visiting, although I'm sure they'd limit the interaction the mage would be allowed to have with the general population.

The phylactery info is awesome, I didn't know that was confirmed, cool! I'm so daft I didn't think it was linked to blood magic since the Chantry is so against it supposedly.

Also, Tranquil are the equivalent to having your tongue cut out in my opinion.

Worse in my opinion. I'd rather have my tongue cut out than lose my connection to my emotions.

Though I imagine if that happened I wouldn't care afterwords... still.

I totally agree with Jowan on this one.

So please, take my tongue.

Modifié par ShrinkingFish, 02 octobre 2010 - 01:32 .

[Asepsis]

I agree 100%, especially since they force it on some mages, or kill them. Not much of a choice really.

[ShrinkingFish]

Asepsis wrote...

I agree 100%, especially since they force it on some mages, or kill them. Not much of a choice really.

Yeah. Faced with the choice of a life on the run and never being able to feel feelings anymore. I'd run. Don't care if that mad dash ends on the edge of a blade. It would be an ending worthy of some passion which is better than a long life bereft of it.

[tool_bot]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Asepsis wrote...

I agree 100%, especially since they force it on some mages, or kill them. Not much of a choice really.

Yeah. Faced with the choice of a life on the run and never being able to feel feelings anymore. I'd run. Don't care if that mad dash ends on the edge of a blade. It would be an ending worthy of some passion which is better than a long life bereft of it.

It's a question of personal values. What kind of life do you value most? I, much like yourself, would sooner spend a year in Howe's dungeon then spend it as a unfeeling slave. (one of the reasons I can sympathize with bi-polar friends who have issues with their medication) I may not be entirely thrilled with who I am but good luck trying to lobotomize me.

[tool_bot]

thegreateski wrote...

I imagine that they would nod, accept the mage into the Qunari society . . . and then cut his tounge out and put him on a leash.

The Qunari are predictable like that.

And flammable, too.

[ShrinkingFish]

tool_bot wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Asepsis wrote...

I agree 100%, especially since they force it on some mages, or kill them. Not much of a choice really.

Yeah. Faced with the choice of a life on the run and never being able to feel feelings anymore. I'd run. Don't care if that mad dash ends on the edge of a blade. It would be an ending worthy of some passion which is better than a long life bereft of it.

It's a question of personal values. What kind of life do you value most? I, much like yourself, would sooner spend a year in Howe's dungeon then spend it as a unfeeling slave. (one of the reasons I can sympathize with bi-polar friends who have issues with their medication) I may not be entirely thrilled with who I am but good luck trying to lobotomize me.

Actually... I'd sooner throw myself on my own sword than do either of those option. Better to die than be captured after all.

And I am actually entirely thrilled with who I am and will not tolerate any enforced changes. See so there.

[tool_bot]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And "life imprisoment"? More like "life quarantene". One can argue that it's the same, but the difference between the two is very important.

Yes.

The former accurately describes the situation. The latter is political word play. (ie find something that sorta sounds like what's happening but makes it sound nobler and not as ugly)

[tmp7704]

LobselVith8 wrote...

That scenerio doesn't take into account the actions of the mages themselves. The mages were a vital part of the Andrastian Chantry's ability to defeat the Qunari in the New Exalted Marches. If the ruler of Ferelden tried to force the issue of the Magi boon, since these are Ferelden citizens we're talking about, it could cause an insurrection among the mages of the six Circles located within Orlais, and possibly every Circle across Thedas.

That feels rather naive -- why would Orlesian or any other non-Ferelden mages want to risk their own necks for the sake of people they generally wouldn't even know and/or may vaguely dislike based on national bias? Before you answer "because they're all mages" keep in mind this factor doesn't apparently stop some mages from actively keeping down the others in Tevinter. Mages are selfish just like anyone else. Granted, some may think ahead farther than others but that brings us to:
 

It's also a factor of whether Empress Celene I would even commit any soldiers against Ferelden, given her attitude in her correspondence with King Cailan of making peace despite the occupation that ended thirty years ago

The very thing you bring up can actually be good reason for her to at least consider such move -- if mages in one country get to roam free, mages elsewhere may get in their heads they should be allowed the same and that is a quite stronger incentive to rebel. If mages are indeed as important as you presume then it's in the ruler's best interest to ensure they stay under tight control and any attempts to change that get prompt reaction.

and I'm certain the Dalish all across Thedas would love an excuse to regain their lost territory from Orlais.

And i'm sure people across Thedas would love an excuse for more of elf razing. And elves picking a fight under a banner of unleashing mages upon population which generally distrust and fears magic... well, let's just say that's hardly the best choice of PR one could make.

Regardless of what factors would play into this scenerio, it seems ridiculous that a Magi boon is offered in DA:O and then we're told on a forum "nope, doesn't happen," especially when, in the US ending, the ruler actually commands Greagoir to leave the Circle after the new tower is built, and Greagoir concedes to the new ruler.

I think it's realistic rather than ridiculous given empty declarations has been par for the course in politics. If anything it seems more ridiculous that such important matter would be up to whim of any local ruler when it's otherwise a system they aren't really part of, and that such meddling wouldn't be met with strong objection from the Chantry if not Greagoir himself.