73 réponses à ce sujet

[tommyt_1994]

So for most adept fans out there, they enjoy using singularity and pull to set up warp bombs. But why can only singularity and pull do this? On higher difficulties, shockwave for the most part is uselss, aside from getting enemies out of cover for a second, the longer animation and cooldown is often not worth it. So why not let it set up warp bombs? You walk into a room, use an AOE overload, cast shockwave, and from there you could warp one of the reg dolled enemies to set off a war bomb. But leaving it at that would still make pull/singularity a wiser choice for warp bombs. So instead of just one of the enemies being used as the nuke, why not bump it up to 2? You use overload, shockwave and 2-3 enemies go flying. You warp the enemy of your choosing, but it sets off a chain of no more than 2 war bombs, thus giving war bombs a greater AOE, and making shockwave an actually useful power. Some people would bargain that the longer animation/cooldown would make using shockwave worth it for warp bombs while other would not. Nontheles, it would spice things up a bit.

What do you guys think?

Modifié par tommyt_1994, 25 septembre 2010 - 06:48 .

[Ares Caesar]

I think thats a more difficult change to make in the current system, but definitely an idea for increased usefulness and dynamic gameplay in Mass Effect 3.

Personally as far as easy CURRENT ability to change/improve, I'd prefer it actually had a bonus % damage to barriers like warp/reave(Being that it IS a biotic power). Or at least a better stagger/possible incapacitate duration, no damage increase to protections but possibly 1-3 seconds of stun time on protected enemies allowing for it to be a setup power for other powers/weapons. In otherwords you'd shockwave that Eclipse merc Mini Boss hiding behind cover, and while it'd not really do much (if any) damage to her, it would bump her up/out of cover and incapacitate for 1-3 seconds so you can blast a phalanx bullet deep into her brain.

Modifié par Ares Caesar, 25 septembre 2010 - 07:13 .

[sinosleep]

If they just made it a one shot defense stripper I think it would be enough to bring it in line. Most of the other 6 second cd powers are one shot defense strippers (overload, energy drain, reave, incineration blast, warp) giving shockwave defense stripping capability would be enough of a boost without unbalancing things. Warp would still be useful for warp explosions and such so it wouldn't be redundant.

Modifié par sinosleep, 25 septembre 2010 - 08:40 .

[Bozorgmehr]

sinosleep wrote...

If they just made it a one shot defense stripper I think it would be enough to bring it in line. Most of the other 6 second cd powers are one shot defense strippers (overload, energy drain, reave, incineration blast, warp) giving shockwave defense stripping capability would be enough of a boost without unbalancing things. Warp would still be useful for warp explosions and such so it wouldn't be redundant.

Agreed. It would make Shockwave a very useful power if it worked like enemy Shockwave. Scions (and Tela Vasir) strip defenses with their Shockwaves (no matter how strong shields are - they remove my Adept's 650 barrier instantly). Hell, I wouldn't mind a 9 s cooldown then. Improving Shockwave will allow different playstyles and builds (Vanguards and Adepts); turns Jack into a multi purpose squadmate and it'll bring new life to the battlefield (I think Shockwave is one of the coolest animations in ME2 performed right)

[Nooneyouknow13]

sinosleep wrote...

If they just made it a one shot defense stripper I think it would be enough to bring it in line. Most of the other 6 second cd powers are one shot defense strippers (overload, energy drain, reave, incineration blast, warp) giving shockwave defense stripping capability would be enough of a boost without unbalancing things. Warp would still be useful for warp explosions and such so it wouldn't be redundant.

Well, I don't think it needs any damage mods against defenses, but it would be a vastly better skill if it had static damage instead of physics based damage. If you were to go the route of making it a defense stripper, I'd personally set the bonuses to 1.5 against each defense. That'd make it universal, but weaker in general than specialized skills.

[Niemroth]

Static damage points would be a good idea. Perhaps 12-15 damage points per detonation? I think shockwave creates up to 12 detonations.

[Ares Caesar]

Thinking more on it, and this is more geared to benefit the adept

3-6 second Stun & Cover bust even protected enemies, but no damage against protections.

Point being that EVERY class outside the Adept has a CQC distance closing power

Soldier= Adrenaline Rush
Vanguard= Charge
Sentinel= Tech Armor
Engineer= Drone
Infiltrator= Tactical Cloak
Adept=....?

Gimme a power that lets me shut down the enemy fire in a group (since I have no barrier), busts them up from cover so squadmates can either power damage or weapon damage, and I can strip defenses with SMG quickly while moving forward during stun & cover busted time to then drop a pull field spam across the group to then follow up with a squadmate warp bomb to finish off any remaining guys I didnt kill in the area I've now ran towards.

I think THAT would offer the most dynamic power change while keeping it a sort of unique power vs just being another defense strip power in itself. Perhaps even have it work like pullfield in that enemies affected by it take more damage... at the very least I think it FITS the term "SHOCKwave" the best as it would "shock" the enemy temporarly while you run at him with SMG fury

Modifié par Ares Caesar, 25 septembre 2010 - 09:55 .

[Bozorgmehr]

Ares Caesar wrote...

Point being that EVERY class outside the Adept has a CQC distance closing power

Soldier= Adrenaline Rush
Vanguard= Charge
Sentinel= Tech Armor
Engineer= Drone
Infiltrator= Tactical Cloak
Adept=....?

Adept = Biotics

[Ares Caesar]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Ares Caesar wrote...

Point being that EVERY class outside the Adept has a CQC distance closing power

Soldier= Adrenaline Rush
Vanguard= Charge
Sentinel= Tech Armor
Engineer= Drone
Infiltrator= Tactical Cloak
Adept=....?

Adept = Biotics

Which of those "biotics" allows you to rush the enemy to CQC range? Maybe I'm not playing the Adept correctly, but I dont recall having the ability to do so, where as the other classes all have SOMETHING that allows you to either be so effective shooting, protection+explosion damage, invisible, or distracting/draw fire, but the Adept has nothing of the sort.

Shockwave = first attack of your "Shock and Awe" assault for CQC (if it was effective at shocking & cover busting protected enemies), and as the cooldown timer goes you run in SMG blazing on shocked enemies and hopefully by the time the cooldown has worn off you've then dropped protections on non mini boss type characters and drop a huge pull field on the entire group you used your SMG to strip defenses from (you wouldnt shoot to kill only to remove defenses off 2-4 guys while pressing forward), and like I said then dentonate your bomb to finish any guys you couldnt kill or catch in your pull field.

*Edit add* - Every other class has something for this style of CQC play, and considering none of the biotics story wise ever seem to want to hide back (they usually just run right forward biotics blazing chucking enemies left and right or ripping them apart with their warps--which none of the current powers do)

Modifié par Ares Caesar, 25 septembre 2010 - 10:12 .

[Bozorgmehr]

Ares Caesar wrote...

Which of those "biotics" allows you to rush the enemy to CQC range? Maybe I'm not playing the Adept correctly, but I dont recall having the ability to do so, where as the other classes all have SOMETHING that allows you to either be so effective shooting, protection+explosion damage, invisible, or distracting/draw fire, but the Adept has nothing of the sort.

*Edit add* - Every other class has something for this style of CQC play, and considering none of the biotics story wise ever seem to want to hide back (they usually just run right forward biotics blazing chucking enemies left and right or ripping them apart with their warps--which none of the current powers do)

Like I said; Adepts got biotics. Singularity will hold (protected) enemies (entire groups). Unprotected enemies are easy targets using Singularity, Pull, Throw (Shockwave though I don't use it much) and squadmate powers. Adepts are equiped with everything they need for CQC. Plus there are always bonus powers to buff Adept's already powerful arsenal:

Heavy Barrier provides better protection than Assault Armor: www.youtube.com/watch

Energy Drain is godlike on Geth Missions: www.youtube.com/watch

Stasis offers additional CC, Adepts can kill at will even pre Horizon: www.youtube.com/watch

Plus Adepts are king using (biotic) combos. Say hi to the enemy detonating one or two warp explosions right at the start and you can easily move in close to finish whats left. I love CQC with Adept

[AntiChri5]

Singularity is fine for holding people to aproach.



I would prefer if Shockwave were designed to benefit the Vanguard.



The Vanquard is supposed to be a combination of biotics and combat.



The Vanguard has three biotic abilities, one of which is the class exclusive power, then the useless Shockwave, then Pull.



The problem is, unless we are willing to put points into a useless power to unlock a decent one we only have one biotic power which is the classes trademark power. That just doesnt feel like a combat/biotic mix, more like a soldier wih a fancy trick.

[Ares Caesar]

You got a vid of Singularity holding and stopping them from firing at you? I could never get it to work effectively on anyone with protections, it MAYBE dulled their attention for 1 second before they walked right through it and blasted my shields to hell.



The rest of what you said is null and void as its all bonus powers, and none of the others require a bonus power for CQC closing on protected enemies. Sure the adept is the BOMB (literally in many ways) for UNPROTECTED enemies, but every other class has something that basically makes it easy to get up close and personal without having your shields disappear and your health halfway removed.



Soldier is a beast running forwards with AR, Sentinel Tech Rush is brutal (especially since it can be setup LONG before the battle ever started), Vanguards charge offers immediate CQC AND shields buff, Infiltrator literally can put a sniper barrel or carnifex 1 inch from the face of any enemy, and the engineer's drone offers the perfect distraction while you run right up to close quarters... I've yet to see singularity or anything the adept can offer do anything close to those abilities provided for distance closing.



Again, "shockwave" screams (heh, I'm thinking totally of transformers now) of a "shock" tactic for doing exactly that allowing you to gain tactical positional advantage (either closing or retreating), while also not making the power simply another basic protection stripper.

[JaegerBane]

Ares Caesar wrote...

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Ares Caesar wrote...

Point being that EVERY class outside the Adept has a CQC distance closing power

Soldier= Adrenaline Rush
Vanguard= Charge
Sentinel= Tech Armor
Engineer= Drone
Infiltrator= Tactical Cloak
Adept=....?

Adept = Biotics

Which of those "biotics" allows you to rush the enemy to CQC range? Maybe I'm not playing the Adept correctly, but I dont recall having the ability to do so, where as the other classes all have SOMETHING that allows you to either be so effective shooting, protection+explosion damage, invisible, or distracting/draw fire, but the Adept has nothing of the sort.

I think the question of a CQC distance closing power for an Adept is an unfair question - Adepts generally play around the concept of locking down and moving enemies to where you desire them to be, as oppose to moving themselves to their targets, so to ask why they don't have a power that is the antithesis to their playstyle seems to miss the point.

Singularity is functions in a similar manner to drone in the situation you describe, though it focuses on concentrating on fewer enemies for the benefit of being more reliable (and hence was probably the reason why you felt the Adept didn't have anything for the role - but I never have much problem storming up to Harby or a Boss once they've had a Heavy Singularity placed on them).

It's one of the big reasons I and Bozorg advocate playing the class very agressively, as it's one of the few classes in the game that can comfortably control and neutralise all targets around them no matter how close they are.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 25 septembre 2010 - 10:49 .

[Ares Caesar]

JaegerBane >>>Antithesis? Jack and Samara (at least cutscene wise) dont seem to be remotely afraid of engaging in CQC, and as far as "playstyle" goes, its ONLY limited as a CQC class because it has no great closing power while all others do.

Again, I'm not saying it HAS to have a power for that, but if we're talking about making it more useful and offering something of value (a method of defeating protections without making it a simple protection stripper itself), I see that as the most valuable as it'd allow for you to operate against all protections (if it shocked/cover busted like scions does-simply dont do damage to protections just stagger/cover bust)

I mean its SHOCKwave for *****sake, let it actually do what it says... "shock" the enemy in a wave. Whether or not you actually use it for CQC or simply busting that dug in b@$****** out from cover is your choice, it wouldnt strip his protections but it'd offer you the ability to blast them away while the power cools down, so you can THEN use either singularity pull or whatever your lil biotic heart desires.

Would be effective for Vanguard as well since it'd allow you to at least have a semi distance power that would aid in protection defeating and then allow you to charge in when enemies are a bit weaker and you can simply come out of charge and wipe out the group because they've already been stripped before you ever went in.

*edit add* - Even if singularity works close to as good as you say, it still is a totally different style of power, and is about 10x as effective on non-protected enemies than protected. Dont get me wrong, watching unprotected guys get sucked in and float around helplessly in a singularity is awesome, but just watching guys get a little slowed yet still usually able to blast at you in a singularity doesnt really help defend you a lot, but again maybe I'm just not using it right against protected guys.

To be honest I'd prefer shockwave as a mid-range cover buster for adept simply because too often guys dig in and you cant get that power to arc properly and of course your squads straightline doesnt help any either, but if you could just get them cover busted so you had a few seconds to either overload, incinerate, or warp his protections or simply blast away with SMGs would offer more value to playing much "safer" and locking down opponents (infact if they're getting staggered+cover busted you're "locking them down")

Anyway, I'll stop arguing the issue simply because its not likely to get changed no matter how much I'd prefer it to, so its just a waste of your time and mine to keep going over it. To each their own, but I'm tired of constantly spamming protection strippers, especially as biotic abled classes, make me shoot my guns! (infact you've got so little to do between cooldowns anyway)

Modifié par Ares Caesar, 25 septembre 2010 - 11:08 .

[JaegerBane]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Singularity is fine for holding people to aproach.

I would prefer if Shockwave were designed to benefit the Vanguard.

The Vanquard is supposed to be a combination of biotics and combat.

The Vanguard has three biotic abilities, one of which is the class exclusive power, then the useless Shockwave, then Pull.

The problem is, unless we are willing to put points into a useless power to unlock a decent one we only have one biotic power which is the classes trademark power. That just doesnt feel like a combat/biotic mix, more like a soldier wih a fancy trick.

I think that's less to do with biotics or shockwave and more to do with the problem that the Vanguard's power structure is very poor in comparison to other classes - their skills have poor synergy with each other and they have several redundant CC options and virtually no anti-defence/damage options, causing the requirement to play them as Charge-monkeys w/ squad cryo in order to compete in potency.

While I do like the idea of Shockwave being upped to be an anti-defence power (since this wouldn't overly boost the ability on Normal/Veteran, where I'd submit that it's easily worth it's 6 sec cooldown due to the devastation it causes on undefended targets), trying to modify it so it presents some use to a class that has a completely different skillset to it's advertised combination sounds like overcomplicating things.

My personal feeling is that Shockwave should have been put on the Sentinel and Throw should have been put on the Vanguard. The Vanguard's low end cooldown reduction and preference for fighting rapidly, and it's near-dependance on it's class power just doesn't work properly with a 6 second cooldown, let alone a 6 sec cooldown power that only fills a very small niche, does nothing to defences and doesn't synergise with Pull or Charge - whereas the Sentinels major anti-defence power set and heavyweight cooldown would have worked well with Shockwave, as they'd have been able to take maximum advantage of it's CC ability.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 25 septembre 2010 - 11:13 .

[JaegerBane]

Ares Caesar wrote...

JaegerBane >>>Antithesis? Jack and Samara (at least cutscene wise) dont seem to be remotely afraid of engaging in CQC, and as far as "playstyle" goes, its ONLY limited as a CQC class because it has no great closing power while all others do.
 

You're talking about two different things here - Biotics generally have no problem with CQC. What you mentioned previously was they they didn't have a power to *get into* CQC. When I said 'antithesis', I was referring to the fact that you were asking why a class that specialises in moving targets to where they want them to be doesn't have a power that moves the Adept instead of an enemy.

[Bozorgmehr]

Ares Caesar wrote...

You got a vid of Singularity holding and stopping them from firing at you? I could never get it to work effectively on anyone with protections, it MAYBE dulled their attention for 1 second before they walked right through it and blasted my shields to hell.

Singularity will keep powerful enemies at bay with ease (elites, all bosses, scions and Harbinger) - long enough to empty an entire clip before you'll need to use Singularity again (if they're no death already). It will hold multiple clustered enemies in place allowing the use of squadmate powers and/or guns to strip defenses of one or more enemies, fire a Warp and clean up the mess. This can be done without (hardly any) enemy retaliation. Perfect for CQC.

The rest of what you said is null and void as its all bonus powers, and none of the others require a bonus power for CQC closing on protected enemies. Sure the adept is the BOMB (literally in many ways) for UNPROTECTED enemies, but every other class has something that basically makes it easy to get up close and personal without having your shields disappear and your health halfway removed.

Bonus powers are there to be used, adding powers to improve class capabilities where they're lacking or just for the fun of it. In the end it's the Adept class ruling the battlefield, no other class can come close in terms of CC - this alone provides opportunity for CQ fighting. It's only a matter of playstyle. Infiltrators can sit back and snipe everything or they take SG on CS and move in close. Adepts can use powers behind cover and warp bomb everything or move in close for some intense fighting. Bonus powers just help a bit.

[Bozorgmehr]

JaegerBane wrote...

My personal feeling is that Shockwave should have been put on the Sentinel and Throw should have been put on the Vanguard. The Vanguard's low end cooldown reduction and preference for fighting rapidly, and it's near-dependance on it's class power just doesn't work properly with a 6 second cooldown, let alone a 6 sec cooldown power that only fills a very small niche, does nothing to defences and doesn't synergise with Pull or Charge - whereas the Sentinels major anti-defence power set and heavyweight cooldown would have worked well with Shockwave, as they'd have been able to take maximum advantage of it's CC ability.

Good point. I would love having both Pull and Throw on Vanguard; excellent powers to disable enemies fast and easy. I never liked the concept of charging an enemy already within effective SG range anyway. This would make Vanguards more versatile and more like a true biotic, not fast moving shotgun maniacs

I never really understood the need of Throw for the Sentinel, Tech Armor will knock down anything anyway. Pull would be better, but it would have made Sentinels too OPed. If Shockwave did some reasonable damage against defenses it would be a really nice power on higher difficulty levels.

[Kronner]

Why should Vanguard resemble Adept lite? It offers different playstyle for a reason.

As for Shockwave, it is incredible power on lower difficulties, pretty much useless on Insanity. But there are plenty of powers like that.

Modifié par Kronner, 25 septembre 2010 - 12:04 .

[tangmcgame]

What about giving Shockwave the ability to knock enemies out of cover by hitting the front of it. So if Shockwave collides with cover, the enemy is staggered out like they were hit by a Drone. I actually thought it would be cool to have Singularity do this, as in the Black Ball of Doom from Harbinger, but Singularity does enough already.

[lazuli]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Good point. I would love having both Pull and Throw on Vanguard; excellent powers to disable enemies fast and easy. I never liked the concept of charging an enemy already within effective SG range anyway. This would make Vanguards more versatile and more like a true biotic, not fast moving shotgun maniacs

I can't agree.  If you choose a horizontal path for your Pull, you can just use Charge as Throw.  And I like that Vanguards and Adepts feel and play like dramatically different classes.

I think we can all agree that Pull would have been very useful to have on a Sentinel so that it could set up its own Warp bombs, but that would rob the Adept of some of its luster.  As it is, the classes are designed so that every standard skill (except Concussive Shot) is shared among at least two classes.  Bioware probably shuffled around these Biotic skills between Sentinel and Vanguard from more of a balancing perspective than anything else.

[JaegerBane]

Bozorgmehr wrote...
Good point. I would love having both Pull and Throw on Vanguard; excellent powers to disable enemies fast and easy. I never liked the concept of charging an enemy already within effective SG range anyway. This would make Vanguards more versatile and more like a true biotic, not fast moving shotgun maniacs

Yeah. I've never been totally happy with the disproportinate lack of versatility in the Vanguard's structure compared to most of the other classes - even the other hybrid classes. All of them have at least two distinct but potent methods of playing (Sentinel Caster vs Sentinel Beserker, Widow Infiltrator vs Shotgun Infiltrator etc) while the Vanguard has a choice of either playing like a super-powered teleporting point-blank psychopath, or a.... uh, a guy that can use Pull.

I never really understood the need of Throw for the Sentinel, Tech Armor will knock down anything anyway. Pull would be better, but it would have made Sentinels too OPed. If Shockwave did some reasonable damage against defenses it would be a really nice power on higher difficulty levels.

Throw is significantly more useful power than Shockwave, so I can understand why they put it on the Sentinel - being the Jack of All Trades class implies they use powers that work in many situations. Furthermore, their intention may well have been to restrict single-person biotic combos to the biotic specialist, which is currently the case. However, It just seems that Shockwave is such an out-of-place power on a class like the Vanguard - there just isn't any way that the Vanguard can use it efficiently. It's virtually never a better choice than Pull or Charge.

On the other hand, the Sentinel could make much better use of the ability. They never have that much problem with defences no matter who they're facing, it wouldn't give them the ability to make their own warp bombs and they seem to be well-set for using powers with longer cooldowns.

[lazuli]

JaegerBane wrote...
However, It just seems that Shockwave is such an out-of-place power on a class like the Vanguard - there just isn't any way that the Vanguard can use it efficiently. It's virtually never a better choice than Pull or Charge.

I agree.  With the sole exception of lines of undefended husks, Shockwave doesn't serve much purpose.

[JaegerBane]

Kronner wrote...

Why should Vanguard resemble Adept lite? It offers different playstyle for a reason.

I'm not sure it's accurate to claim that the Vanguard with throw to be 'An Adept lite'. The throw-pull combo is hardly the defining feature of the Adept, as useful as it is. It's similar to claiming playing an Adept with a Mattock to be a 'Soldier lite'.

As for Shockwave, it is incredible power on lower difficulties, pretty much useless on Insanity. But there are plenty of powers like that.

I'm not sure there's any power in the game that is hit as hard by the increasing amount of defences as Shockwave - even Cryo still maintains some use with it's native AoE and shorter cooldown.

It is a brilliant power once defences are down, don't get me wrong - the point is that Vanguards are not about defence-busting and hence hardly ever find themselves in that situation. Throw, on the other hand, is far more suited to restricted cooldowns and melee-range fighting which is what the Vanguard is all about. Throw would actually be a legitimate option against Pull or Charge, which Shockwave virtually never is.      

Oh, and my hamster has this to add:

fw11aaaaaaaaaa

Make of that what you will

[lazuli]

JaegerBane wrote...
I'm not sure there's any power in the game that is hit as hard by the increasing amount of defences as Shockwave - even Cryo still maintains some use with it's native AoE and shorter cooldown.

I can think of one.