73 réponses à ce sujet

[Kronner]

Vanguard is still "Charge-monkey" even if you add Throw.

Better than Shockwave on Insanity? Sure. But that's about it. IMHO all classes have (at least) one useless talent on Insanity.

[Bozorgmehr]

lazuli wrote...

I can't agree.  If you choose a horizontal path for your Pull, you can just use Charge as Throw.  And I like that Vanguards and Adepts feel and play like dramatically different classes.

That sounds like overkill  if you can Pull a target they're already doomed, no need to waste Charge to mimic Throw (though it's fun to watch). What I meant is Shockwave is utterly useless for a Vanguard - they're supposed to fight at point blank range. Pull isn't useful up close, it's very good on medium range targets (just out of SG range) - Pull them in and your shotty will work like Throw, blasting enemies away. Throw is best short range CC power and would fit Vanguard perfectly without changing playstyle at all.

I think we can all agree that Pull would have been very useful to have on a Sentinel so that it could set up its own Warp bombs, but that would rob the Adept of some of its luster.  As it is, the classes are designed so that every standard skill (except Concussive Shot) is shared among at least two classes.

 

classes are designed aroung unique powers, the rest is just situational equipment strengthing unique power. Soldiers, Infiltrators and Vanguard can use different ammo types to increase killing speed - they will just be using their unique power all the time. Sentinels will be spamming Tech Armor thoughout the game though they can be powerful casters too. Engineers will spam drones and are great defense strippers. Adepts are only ones with 4 very good powers (instead of one super power). They don't have to (in fact  they shouldn't) spam one power for max effect, their strength lies in using all 4 powers in conjunction with one another.

Bioware probably shuffled around these Biotic skills between Sentinel and Vanguard from more of a balancing perspective than anything else.

I would like Bioware to change Charge in ME3 into something like Tela Vasir's - being able to move to a different place on the battlefield (not just to an enemy) and it should be impossible to Charge target within 3-5 m radius. Charge would remain as powerful as it is today plus adding tactical flexibility and it will encourage the use of other biotic powers (Pull and Throw) - thus evolving Vanguard into something resembling a Biotic instead of the (incredibly fun) charging machine it is today.

[NICKjnp]

You know you can hit a group of enemies with lvl 3 or 4 shockwave from with Shepard or Jack, then hit the group with pull field with either Jack, Samara or Jacob and then detonate the pull field with warp from Shepard, Miranda or Thane. This is even possible on Insanity (just bring Miranda if you are worried about shields).

[lazuli]

Bozorgmehr wrote...
I would like Bioware to change Charge in ME3 into something like Tela Vasir's - being able to move to a different place on the battlefield (not just to an enemy) and it should be impossible to Charge target within 3-5 m radius. Charge would remain as powerful as it is today plus adding tactical flexibility and it will encourage the use of other biotic powers (Pull and Throw) - thus evolving Vanguard into something resembling a Biotic instead of the (incredibly fun) charging machine it is today.

I thought about how they might change Charge.  The only reason Tela Vasir's works like it does is because it's a heavily scripted and isolated case.  She can Charge to a few specified points or to the player (after some buildup).  If Bioware wanted to give the players more options with Charge, they could make it so you can Charge to squadmates.  It wouldn't hurt them; it would just bring you back.  Another option would be to create specified locations in every battlefield that glow or only appear when you're playing a Vanguard.  You would then be able to Charge to these locations.

It's fun to think about ways to change Charge, but I like it the way it is.  I will be fine if it appears in Mass Effect 3 as it is now.

[brfritos]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Ares Caesar wrote...

Which of those "biotics" allows you to rush the enemy to CQC range? Maybe I'm not playing the Adept correctly, but I dont recall having the ability to do so, where as the other classes all have SOMETHING that allows you to either be so effective shooting, protection+explosion damage, invisible, or distracting/draw fire, but the Adept has nothing of the sort.

*Edit add* - Every other class has something for this style of CQC play, and considering none of the biotics story wise ever seem to want to hide back (they usually just run right forward biotics blazing chucking enemies left and right or ripping them apart with their warps--which none of the current powers do)

Like I said; Adepts got biotics. Singularity will hold (protected) enemies (entire groups). Unprotected enemies are easy targets using Singularity, Pull, Throw (Shockwave though I don't use it much) and squadmate powers. Adepts are equiped with everything they need for CQC. Plus there are always bonus powers to buff Adept's already powerful arsenal:

Heavy Barrier provides better protection than Assault Armor: www.youtube.com/watch

Energy Drain is godlike on Geth Missions: www.youtube.com/watch

Stasis offers additional CC, Adepts can kill at will even pre Horizon: www.youtube.com/watch

Plus Adepts are king using (biotic) combos. Say hi to the enemy detonating one or two warp explosions right at the start and you can easily move in close to finish whats left. I love CQC with Adept

Yes, it's so easy to make warp explosions with a Adept, I don't know why people complain about him.

Everyone also complain about how difficult is the first mission in Freedom's Progress if you import a level 30 ME2 game, but with a Adept...puff, the mission is cakewalk.

Also, it's oustanding funny a Vanguard charging a target affect with Shockwave.
It's like "bye, bye, see you on the moon".

But the target needs be to unprotected, that's the let down.

[godlike13]

JaegerBane wrote...

My personal feeling is that Shockwave should have been put on the Sentinel and Throw should have been put on the Vanguard. The Vanguard's low end cooldown reduction and preference for fighting rapidly, and it's near-dependance on it's class power just doesn't work properly with a 6 second cooldown, let alone a 6 sec cooldown power that only fills a very small niche, does nothing to defences and doesn't synergise with Pull or Charge - whereas the Sentinels major anti-defence power set and heavyweight cooldown would have worked well with Shockwave, as they'd have been able to take maximum advantage of it's CC ability.

Throw and Charge is a bit redundant. IMO pull is very suited for a Vanguard, so the should have had Pull before Shockwave. Shockwave is nice on normal and below, anything above its pretty useless. This way Vanguards could take advantage of pull field and a AOE defense stripper on higher difficulties, rather then have to waste precious points on Shockwave.

Modifié par godlike13, 25 septembre 2010 - 05:57 .

[sinosleep]

JaegerBane wrote...

Yeah. I've never been totally happy with the disproportinate lack of versatility in the Vanguard's structure compared to most of the other classes - even the other hybrid classes. All of them have at least two distinct but potent methods of playing (Sentinel Caster vs Sentinel Beserker, Widow Infiltrator vs Shotgun Infiltrator etc) while the Vanguard has a choice of either playing like a super-powered teleporting point-blank psychopath, or a.... uh, a guy that can use Pull.

I've got to agree with this. The vanguard is my favorite class, and I will defend it to the day I die, but it truly is a one trick pony. I LOVE that trick, have yet to tire of it, and do not want Bioware to even think of attempting to modify that aspect of the class for ME 3, but it's still only one trick.

The other classes have other ways to play them without feeling gimped. You have your caster and assault sentinels, your ranged and cqc infiltrators, you ranged and cqc engineers, etc, etc, etc. With those classes when you switch things up you can't really apply the whole, oh well X sentinel is just a gimped soldier or whatever. Sure people say it, but it can't really be applied due to all the other things the different classes have going for them. With the vanguard though, a chargless vanguard truly is a gimped adept. Adepts have ALL the same powers barring ammo powers, one of which (cryo) is actually a bad clash for anyone relying on warp explosions since cryo seems to bug out ragdolling. So you've got that, then he can't cast as fast or has hard as an adept (which is at it should be) either. To make things worse you lack a commandable CC ability like singularity. Without charge he's not really any more survivable so what do you get? A gimped adept.

Someone suggested making pull a requirement for shockwave instead of the other way around and while that would certainly help the vanguard, it wouldn't make it any less of one trick pony. It would just allow for a better selection of bonus powers.

Modifié par sinosleep, 25 septembre 2010 - 06:46 .

[godlike13]

sinosleep wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...

Yeah. I've never been totally happy with the disproportinate lack of versatility in the Vanguard's structure compared to most of the other classes - even the other hybrid classes. All of them have at least two distinct but potent methods of playing (Sentinel Caster vs Sentinel Beserker, Widow Infiltrator vs Shotgun Infiltrator etc) while the Vanguard has a choice of either playing like a super-powered teleporting point-blank psychopath, or a.... uh, a guy that can use Pull.

I've got to agree with this. The vanguard is my favorite class, and I will defend it to the day I die, but it truly is a one trick pony. I LOVE that trick, have yet to tire of it, and do not want Bioware to even think of attempting to modify that aspect of the class for ME 3, but it's still only one trick.

The other classes have other ways to play them without feeling gimped. You have your caster and assault sentinels, your ranged and cqc infiltrators, you ranged and cqc engineers, etc, etc, etc. With those classes when you switch things up you can't really apply the whole, oh well X sentinel is just a gimped soldier or whatever. Sure people say it, but it can't really be applied due to all the other things the different classes have going for them. With the vanguard though, a chargless vanguard truly is a gimped adept. Adepts have ALL the same powers barring ammo powers, one of which (cryo) is actually a bad clash for anyone relying on warp explosions since cryo seems to bug out ragdolling. So you've got that, then he can't cast as fast or has hard as an adept (which is at it should be) either. To make things worse you lack a commandable CC ability like singularity. Without charge he's not really any more survivable so what do you get? A gimped adept.

Someone suggested making pull a requirement for shockwave instead of the other way around and while that would certainly help the vanguard, it wouldn't make it any less of one trick pony. It would just allow for a better selection of bonus powers.

I don't know, u can throw an assault rifle on a Vanguard and a AOE defense stripper, and play it more at a distance with that assault rifle, ammo powers, and pull even. Charging to cover to cover, or charging to take the flank, chaging to run away. There are things u can do, besides right in the face.

Modifié par godlike13, 25 septembre 2010 - 06:54 .

[sinosleep]

godlike13 wrote...

I don't know, u can throw an assault rifle on a Vanguard and a AOE defense stripper, and play it more at a distance with that assault rifle, ammo powers, and pull even. Charging to cover to cover, or charging to take the flank, chaging to run away. There are things u can do, besides right in the face.

If you are charging from cover to cover and charging to flank then you are playing a charge heavy build. Swapping weapons doesn't do nearly as much for a vanguard as it does for the other classes since it doesn't force you to change your playstyle in any significant way. And if you do change it, you're just a gimped adept with an ammo power.

Modifié par sinosleep, 25 septembre 2010 - 06:59 .

[godlike13]

Vanguards are all about the Charge, but u can change how u apply it and get a different feel.

Soldiers are kind the same, not to many way to play them differently either. Besides weapon heavy.

Modifié par godlike13, 25 septembre 2010 - 07:05 .

[SmokeyNinjas]

personally i would of liked it if when shockwave hit enemies with defenses it still put them down just like flashbang does

[sinosleep]

Weapons have a much bigger affect on how you play your soldier though. Widow soldiers can't really be called gimped infiltrators when arguably they are better snipers than infiltrators themselves. They're still soldiers, and still reliant on AR, but the feel is completely different than say a charge down revenant soldier.



With a vanguard's charge though, what else are you going to do other than shoot the guy you charged? I mean you aren't going to charge and then run away from him, and if you don't then what's really changed from one charge build to another? You can say you are charging specifically to get to that cover, but if you kill the guy you charged the end result is the same as your standard charge and shotgun build.

[Ares Caesar]

sinosleep wrote...

Weapons have a much bigger affect on how you play your soldier though. Widow soldiers can't really be called gimped infiltrators when arguably they are better snipers than infiltrators themselves. They're still soldiers, and still reliant on AR, but the feel is completely different than say a charge down revenant soldier.

With a vanguard's charge though, what else are you going to do other than shoot the guy you charged? I mean you aren't going to charge and then run away from him, and if you don't then what's really changed from one charge build to another? You can say you are charging specifically to get to that cover, but if you kill the guy you charged the end result is the same as your standard charge and shotgun build.

Your Grunt drone vid is neat, I havent played engineer yet, but he'd provide an interesting ally as the concusive shot solves the barrier problem, and his increased survivability probably offers the same if not more value than a squadmate with a drone (legion/tali). For my CQC infiltrator, I liked Grunt as my damage sponge as I'd try to place him closer to the action and the power based squadmate further behind, especially since enemies go crazy on them when you disappear from combat with cloak.

*EDIT* Getting back on topic, yeah I agree that the Vanguard seems to really only have 1 clear style of effective play. I mean if you arent charging then wtf are you playing Vanguard for? Does seem to hamper the "dynamics" of the class in comparison to the other classes.  Would be neat to have a power that either helped change that (agree that shockwave should be AFTER pull, not vice versa), or even better enhanced that playstyle (something with really fast cooldown to either stun protected enemies or help strip protections.

Modifié par Ares Caesar, 25 septembre 2010 - 08:10 .

[TheBestClass]

I agree that Pull should've unlocked Shockwave on the Vanguard. Squad Cryo is great on hardcore and Insanity but it's overkill on lower difficulties where Shockwave shines. This way people playing Insanity wouldn't have to sacrifice Squad Cryo to get Pull and people playing on lower difficulties can get Pull and Shockwave and ignore Cryo. People playing on these difficulties are more likely to charge less anyway becuase they're still getting past the learning curve (when and when not to charge) so some variation in powers would be nice.

[Omega-202]

I agree with Sino's original suggestion: give tier 3/4 Shockwave some defense stripping capability.

Personally, I'd mix it up and give it a relatively small base damage (not reliant on the physics engine) and a decent bonus to Barriers and Shields. Make it like an AoE Concussive Shot-lite where it doesn't strip quite as much Barrier as CS, but it does also affect Shields.

Right now, Shields are the defense that Vanguards have the least tools to deal with. Its probably by design, but Soldiers and Sentinels can have full spectrum stripping potential, why not throw Vanguards an additional weak bone?

Not that Vanguards need it.  

Modifié par Omega-202, 25 septembre 2010 - 09:00 .

[TheBestClass]

Sorry if this is too off topic but how is the Vanguard without Squad Cryo? I'm not able to test it at the moment due to things being moved around to fix some pipes.

[sinosleep]

The game play is pretty much the same IMO, you lose some free CC due to not having your squad freeze anyone but since vanguards can play largely squad free it doesn't make all that much difference. I used to sacrifice squad cryo for pull field all the time. Don't get me wrong it's a great power, it's just the nature of the class to not be very reliant on the squad.

Modifié par sinosleep, 25 septembre 2010 - 11:37 .

[TheBestClass]

Thanks for the insight sinosleep and m14567. I think I'll drop Cryo then. Hadn't heard of Cryo overriding biotics. So, if someone is frozen and you wanted to Pull them it wouldn't work? Or does the freeze effect on a pulled target stop the pull duration? I usually take Slam with my Cryo build and never noticed this.

[EffectedByTheMasses]

What really irks me about Shockwave is that it's not possible to shatter cryo'd enemies with it. Perfectly unreasonable imo.

[sinosleep]

It's kind of buggy. Sometimes you can throw frozen targets, other times biotic seem to not work on them at all. Warp detonations seem to stop working entirely if a pulled target freezes.

[OTFSTW]

I always thought shockwave should have been a short range PBAOE "burst" or cone from the caster instead. Make it 3s if it keeps working like throw, or 6s if it strips protections. That could even be the evolution choice.

[JaegerBane]

godlike13 wrote...

Vanguards are all about the Charge, but u can change how u apply it and get a different feel.

Soldiers are kind the same, not to many way to play them differently either. Besides weapon heavy.

I'd have to agree with sino here - Charge isn't really a power that has that many applications. It's potent and useful, yeah, but it ultimately just involves your warping up to some dude and blasting him away - regardless of what you do in the few seconds afterwards. There isn't really a different 'feel' to it as it generally only functions in one way.

It's not the same as Cloak, for instance, where it can either be used to set up the perfect sniper shot or allow you to infiltrate into enemy ranks to land some point-blank shotgun blasts, or Tech Armour, which can either be used as a boost to your casting and resiliance or as a AoE physics pulse and secondary shield charge. And that's part of the reason why Vanguards are limited in their choice of playstyles - the two different Charge evolutions aren't particularly different to each other, they don't really lend themselves to different types of playing and one is substantially better than the other.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 26 septembre 2010 - 10:30 .

[OniGanon]

Concerning biotics and cryo, enemies that are in the state of freezing are immune to other CC effects like Concussive Shot, biotics, Neural Shock etc. When they have completely frozen, biotics usually works as normal.

[JaegerBane]

lazuli wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...
I'm not sure there's any power in the game that is hit as hard by the increasing amount of defences as Shockwave - even Cryo still maintains some use with it's native AoE and shorter cooldown.

I can think of one.

Shredder Ammo is a bonus power - you can take it or leave it. If it's broken or crap, it doesn't matter, as it isn't a part of any class. I was really referring to class powers that are part of a class's structure.