73 réponses à ce sujet

[The Spamming Troll]

lazuli wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...
I'm not sure there's any power in the game that is hit as hard by the increasing amount of defences as Shockwave - even Cryo still maintains some use with it's native AoE and shorter cooldown.

I can think of one.

well atleast shredder ammo serves more function then pull does on higher difficulty levels. .....and you think shredder ammo is the only one with the bad rap.

[sinosleep]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

well atleast shredder ammo serves more function then pull does on higher difficulty levels. .....and you think shredder ammo is the only one with the bad rap.

[kiltysue]

I actually do use squad pull/shockwave's quite a bit on insanity as a deep freeze/heavy throw caster sentinel. Enemy defense's can get stripped super fast when you're a caster sentinel. Certainly not an efficient easy way to beat insanity. But it's a lot of fun. Especially if you like Jack/Samara battle vocalizations.



A small buff to shockwave might open up its usage a bit in more situations/class make-ups. But I'd be leery of adding much to it. It's way strong on lower difficulty settings. Useful on insanity for some classes (with set-up). I certainly would not want it to function like say, Vasir's shockwave.

[lazuli]

The Spamming Troll wrote...
well atleast shredder ammo serves more function then pull does on higher difficulty levels.

Um, what?

[sinosleep]

kiltysue wrote...

I actually do use squad pull/shockwave's quite a bit on insanity as a deep freeze/heavy throw caster sentinel. Enemy defense's can get stripped super fast when you're a caster sentinel. Certainly not an efficient easy way to beat insanity. But it's a lot of fun. Especially if you like Jack/Samara battle vocalizations.

A small buff to shockwave might open up its usage a bit in more situations/class make-ups. But I'd be leery of adding much to it. It's way strong on lower difficulty settings. Useful on insanity for some classes (with set-up). I certainly would not want it to function like say, Vasir's shockwave.

That's the beauty of making it a one shot defense stripper, on lower difficulties it wouldn't actually be a functional boost (so it wouldn't be weaker or stronger it'd be the same) while on insanity it would make the skill worthwhile.

[godlike13]

sinosleep wrote...

That's the beauty of making it a one shot defense stripper, on lower difficulties it wouldn't actually be a functional boost (so it wouldn't be weaker or stronger it'd be the same) while on insanity it would make the skill worthwhile.

A defense stripper like the Scions?

They could also just have it knock around people regardless of defenses, like stasis and its fall down works regardless of defense.

Modifié par godlike13, 30 septembre 2010 - 03:58 .

[lazuli]

godlike13 wrote...

sinosleep wrote...

That's the beauty of making it a one shot defense stripper, on lower difficulties it wouldn't actually be a functional boost (so it wouldn't be weaker or stronger it'd be the same) while on insanity it would make the skill worthwhile.

They could actually just have it knock around people with with or with out defenses, like stasis and its fall down works regardless of defense.

That would be gamebreaking on higher difficulty levels.  I also don't think it should be a one shot defense stripper.  Increase its damage to defenses, sure, but Shockwave shouldn't ever do as much damage to defenses as Overload or Incinerate.

[godlike13]

lazuli wrote...

That would be gamebreaking on higher difficulty levels.

Why would it be gamebreaking on higher difficulty levels? Its not gamebreaking on lower difficulty levels, and enemies do get back up. It doesn't have to work on ever enemy, like Scions and Harbingers, though Stasis works on Scions, just the basic goons.

Modifié par godlike13, 30 septembre 2010 - 04:04 .

[lazuli]

godlike13 wrote...
Why would it be gamebreaking on higher difficulty levels? Its not gamebreaking on lower difficulty levels, and enemies do get back up. It doesn't have to work on ever enemy, like Scions and Harbingers, though Stasis works on Scions, just the basic goons.

The ability to shut down entire groups of defended enemies, even if only for a short time, would be very strong, especially when you take cover into account.  Shockwave hits enemies regardless of cover.  It has a built in area of effect.  It's a potent skill as it is.  I think the only buff it needs on Insanity is a slightly faster cooldown.  The area of effect stagger through cover is valuable for high risk builds.  I wouldn't say no to other buffs, I just think having it bypass defenses would be over the top.

[tommyt_1994]

lazuli wrote...

godlike13 wrote...
Why would it be gamebreaking on higher difficulty levels? Its not gamebreaking on lower difficulty levels, and enemies do get back up. It doesn't have to work on ever enemy, like Scions and Harbingers, though Stasis works on Scions, just the basic goons.

The ability to shut down entire groups of defended enemies, even if only for a short time, would be very strong, especially when you take cover into account.  Shockwave hits enemies regardless of cover.  It has a built in area of effect.  It's a potent skill as it is.  I think the only buff it needs on Insanity is a slightly faster cooldown.  The area of effect stagger through cover is valuable for high risk builds.  I wouldn't say no to other buffs, I just think having it bypass defenses would be over the top.

To balance it out, change shckwave to where it no loner breaks through cover(Shep's only). So an enemy would have to be out of cover to knock it down with shockwave, which would make it a useful skill without breaking the game IMO.

[lazuli]

tommyt_1994 wrote...

To balance it out, change shckwave to where it no loner breaks through cover(Shep's only). So an enemy would have to be out of cover to knock it down with shockwave, which would make it a useful skill without breaking the game IMO.

But that's one of its defining characteristics, at least in my mind.  And programming separate versions for Shepard and the one squadmate that uses Shockwave seems like a waste.  I don't know how hard it would be, though.  There are certainly a lot of possible ways to improve Shockwave.  It will be interesting to see if it makes an appearance in ME3, and whether or not it has been improved.

[sinosleep]

lazuli wrote...

That would be gamebreaking on higher difficulty levels.  I also don't think it should be a one shot defense stripper.  Increase its damage to defenses, sure, but Shockwave shouldn't ever do as much damage to defenses as Overload or Incinerate.

Why not? Outside of defense stripping it would still be useless on insanity so it's not as if you would be able to say well now it's a defense stripper AND something else. On insanity against health it's complete crap compared to pull or throw. Pull has a WAY shorter CD and can be linked to warp explosions, throw has a WAY shorter CD and provides more force for the physics engine to play with. Being as it's useless against health on insanity making it a one shot defense stripper doesn't over power it. It would simply actually serve a purpose since it serves none as is against either health or defenses.

Modifié par sinosleep, 30 septembre 2010 - 05:38 .

[Tony Gunslinger]

Shockwave should deal damage vs. barriers since, well, it's basically biotic energy transformed into physical concussive blast.

[Nooneyouknow13]

The only non-husk mission I found Shockwave useful on insanity in was Legion's LM. It was actually pretty handy to be able to destroy the hubs through walls. It really needs to be a lot better. Static damage+ it's current throw force, even if it deals 1.0 to defenses, would make it good. Right now it can't even compete with Slam.

[Bozorgmehr]

sinosleep wrote...

lazuli wrote...

That would be gamebreaking on higher difficulty levels.  I also don't think it should be a one shot defense stripper.  Increase its damage to defenses, sure, but Shockwave shouldn't ever do as much damage to defenses as Overload or Incinerate.

Why not? Outside of defense stripping it would still be useless on insanity so it's not as if you would be able to say well now it's a defense stripper AND something else. On insanity against health it's complete crap compared to pull or throw. Pull has a WAY shorter CD and can be linked to warp explosions, throw has a WAY shorter CD and provides more force for the physics engine to play with. Being as it's useless against health on insanity making it a one shot defense stripper doesn't over power it. It would simply actually serve a purpose since it serves none as is against either health or defenses.

Defense stripping Shockwave isn't OPed. Overload and ED are instacast; same with Reave, Warp and Incinerate too when using squadmate version. Shockwave is difficult to use and really hard to hit moving targets. I don't think it should be able to strip any defense instantly (non elites/bosses), but if it removes 1/2 - 3/4 of defenses I would be pleased and use Shockwave on Adept (never understanded why Vanguards can use it too)

I agree with Sinosleep. If Shockwave damages defenses it becomes useful, as being said, against enemies down to health it still is kind of worthless. Damage is minor and enemies are launced everywhere, it's really annoying if enemies end up behind you, get up and stab you and your squad in the back 

[kiltysue]

Nice thoughts in this thread. I never, ever use shockwave on Shepherd, only on Jack, with very specific group make ups oriented on maximizing Jack's usage of shockwave for insanity. So perhaps, a buff would be good.



The idea of a defense stripper is interesting. Personally, I wouldn't want to see the loss of shockwaves current defining characteristics (super ranged aoe that ignores cover). That just goes so well with Jack's wild hair vocalizations. Anyhow, if you keep that aspect of shockwave, it seems unreasonable to send the long ranged version intelligently across a battlefield. It would strip many enemies, and scatter them out of cover.



Still, the idea of a defense stripper seems good. Maybe, give it "X" amount of stripping power. It does full "X" strip to a single enemy when it first intersects them, but if it intersects a group of enemies, "X" stripping power is distributed amongst all the enemies. What would "X" be? Something less than Vasir's shockwave. That seemed clearly, overpowered and boss like to me.



Once "X" stripping power has been expended, shockwave would behave just as it does now. That would give you a reason to use shockwave for insanity. Probably that's good enough to use even on Shepherd, with it's current cooldown.



And maybe, more people would get a big laugh out of Jack flinging her shockwaves willy-nilly across a battlefield on insanity.

[lazuli]

Bozorgmehr wrote...
Defense stripping Shockwave isn't OPed. Overload and ED are instacast; same with Reave, Warp and Incinerate too when using squadmate version. Shockwave is difficult to use and really hard to hit moving targets. I don't think it should be able to strip any defense instantly (non elites/bosses), but if it removes 1/2 - 3/4 of defenses I would be pleased and use Shockwave on Adept (never understanded why Vanguards can use it too)

I think I could get behind that.  It should drop a basic trooper's shields to 1/2 on Insanity.  That would be enough.  And you could chain it with Jack to instantly clear out an army of Husks.  It would make Jack's +20% Biotic Damage upgrade worthwhile.

I just don't think it needs to be a super-powered universal defense stripper that hits enemies behind cover, has a built in area of effect, staggers defended enemies, and knocks undefended enemies all over the place.

For those in favor of it dealing increased damage to defenses, would this be against all defenses?  If not, against what types of defenses would you like to be most effective?  It could be interesting to have it effective against both Barriers and Shields.  We don't have a power that does that particular combination yet.

[sinosleep]

I'm not advocating it strip any and all defenses, what I AM advocating is to pick at least 1 that it strips ENTIRELY because based on all the factors surrounding it it fits far better into defense stripper camp, than into the health damage or CC camps.

The advantage of going through cover is not enough to make up for it's other weaknesses. If you compare it to the other defense stripping powers the issue becomes clear.

incineration blast does more damage to heath, instantly strips armor, and has the same cool down

overload strips shields, renders weapons useless on health, and is instacast same cool down

energy drain, overload on crack same cd

reave, incineration on crack, plus it one shots barriers same cd

warp, one shots barriers and armor on single targets, sets off warp explosions, fast travel time same cd

would this

shockwave, bypasses cover, strips barriers in one shot, does unpredictable regularly low damage on health, slow travel time, same cd

really look out of place there?

Cause it certainly looks out of place compared to the health powers like

pull, throw, singularity, and cryo blast.

Modifié par sinosleep, 30 septembre 2010 - 05:02 .

[PrinceLionheart]

Personally, the way I would've handled Shockwave would be to make it more similar to Scion's (aka, a slightly gimped version);

• Capable of stripping any defense of enemies in it's path by a certain percentage. (Rank 1 30 Percent, Rank 2, 40 Percent, Rank 3, 50 percent, etc.)
• Heavy Shockwave contains a smaller radius, but 75% damage to any form of shielding, Area Shockwave causes bigger radius but only does 50%.
• Shockwave does no physical damage to enemies who only have health (instead causes stumble).

[lazuli]

sinosleep wrote...

I'm not advocating it strip any and all defenses, what I AM advocating is to pick at least 1 that it strips ENTIRELY because based on all the factors surrounding it it fits far better into defense stripper camp, than into the health damage or CC camps.

would this

shockwave, bypasses cover, strips barriers in one shot, does unpredictable regularly low damage on health, slow travel time, same cd

really look out of place there?

Thanks for clarifying, Sinosleep.  I think that your suggestions seem very well balanced and I would welcome them in Mass Effect 3, assuming more or less similar gameplay between 2 and 3, or even in a patch for Mass Effect 2. 

I have one question, though.  When you say "pick at least 1 that it strips ENTIRELY" do you mean that it completely removes the defense (like 1 shot to drop a Praetorian's Barrier) or that it deals damage to Barriers on par with Reave or Warp?

Modifié par lazuli, 01 octobre 2010 - 02:39 .

[sinosleep]

On par with reave or warp.

[lazuli]

sinosleep wrote...

On par with reave or warp.

Works for me.

[Daforth]

godlike13 wrote...

Vanguards are all about the Charge, but u can change how u apply it and get a different feel.

Soldiers are kind the same, not to many way to play them differently either. Besides weapon heavy.

I have to disagree with this. Soldiers also have two basic and distinct playstile as the other classes, except the Vanguard. One style is the CQC, "tank" style with Revenant, Shocktrooper and Hardened AR, health/shiled focused armor setup, aiming for fast closeup and pump up the targets with lots of Inferno enhanced bullets from the Revenant.
The other is what I call Sharpshooter style with Widow, Vindicator or Mattock, Commando, Heightened AR, weapon/headshot dmg focused armor setup, aiming for fast headshot kills from range.
Both are fun and effective playstyle and totally different approach.

You cannot do this with Vanguards. I tried but I ended up on all my Vanguards the same setup and same playstyle: charge-facemelt-charge-facemelt etc.

Modifié par Daforth, 01 octobre 2010 - 09:47 .

[NICKjnp]

With the addition of stasis I've actually replaced area reave with lvl 1 stasis. This lets me have inferno ammo, heavy charge, heavy shockwave and pull field. Shockwave that is that high can do some serious damage to defenseless enemies and enemies that want to hide behind cover are easily knocked out of it..

Modifié par NICKjnp, 02 octobre 2010 - 01:51 .