62 réponses à ce sujet

[Beocat]

I believe the most basic definition of an RPG is a game that allows "leveling" of characters . In today's games, this has become so popular that just about anything could be classified as an RPG using that definition. So, obviously the definition needs an update. However, by this definition getting rid of combat would not make the game an adventure game. If you were able to gain experience to level up by alternative means, you could still qualify for leveling up of characters.



Some games do offer alternative means of leveling up without combat, however, most developers will use combat since it is an easy means of handing out experience without having to be too creative (quest based or item creation based experience requires more creativity than generic monster spawning).



Games that do not allow leveling for your characters (eg Dreamfall, Haunting Ground, Mirror's Edge) would be classified as Adventure or Action/Adventure. Note, all three of the above still incorporate combat in on some level (or allow you to choose to avoid it). So, leveling really is the difference.

[Loerwyn]

Sago_mulch wrote...

combat cannot be that integral to the rpg genre if they allow you to be a pacifist, wait wat?

It's uncommon for an RPG to allow for a path that involves no fighting. The Witcher 2, according to a recent interview, will allow a predominantly peaceful path, but it does have obligatory, non-avoidable combat.

And even in the RPGs where a completely pacifist option is available, it's rarely (if ever) encouraged and causes you to miss out on most of the game. The majority of the game will be built around combat, from game mechanics to dialogue options, to items you acquire and skills you take.

Modifié par OnlyShallow89, 26 septembre 2010 - 07:25 .

[Sago_mulch]

OnlyShallow89 wrote...

Sago_mulch wrote...

combat cannot be that integral to the rpg genre if they allow you to be a pacifist, wait wat?

It's an uncommon path that rarely ever allows for no fighting. The Witcher 2, according to a recent interview, will allow a predominantly peaceful path, but it does have obligatory, non-avoidable combat.

And even in the RPGs where a completely pacifist option is available, it's rarely (if ever) encouraged and causes you to miss out on most of the game. The majority of the game will be built around combat, from game mechanics to dialogue options, to items you acquire and skills you take.

so would an rpg be an adventure game if it had more puzzles, item finding and no combat?

[Loerwyn]

Sago_mulch wrote...
so would an rpg be an adventure game if it had more puzzles, item finding and no combat?

Sort of.

Adventure games are more than that, usually the story is a lot stronger than in an RPG.

[DukeOfNukes]

There have been posts before on what exactly defines an RPG. For some people, the combat is a big issue...for me, personally, what defines it as an RPG is an ability to effect the story by being able to make choices in a role. If a game lets me choose to avoid combat altogether, and as a result my story is different from yours, then it's an RPG. When a game lets you make a few choices, but doesn't really let you step into the role of a character...it then has RPG elements, but is not an RPG.

Yes, under this definition, StarFox and Heavy Rain have RPG elements, and the elements in BioShock are the ability to save/kill the little sisters instead of the ability to upgrade guns...while older "RPG's" (most notably jRPG's), are not RPG's at all...and instead could be called adventure games.

The ability to level your character is a crutch that RPG's have relied on, nothing more. I feel that these systems work better in titles like ME1 and Fable, where it is a series of subtle changes, rather than dramatic ones.

Modifié par DukeOfNukes, 26 septembre 2010 - 10:28 .

[Mordaedil]

Rubbish Hero wrote...

Do they become adventure games?

By a lot of peoples definitions: Yes.

And that is terrible.

[Leinadi]

The bigger question is how on earth would the big RPG developers be able to sell their games as "omg 50+ hours" without having to resort to having boring filler combat every other minute.

[Sago_mulch]

Leinadi wrote...

The bigger question is how on earth would the big RPG developers be able to sell their games as "omg 50+ hours" without having to resort to having boring filler combat every other minute.

here are some ideas.

• Filler running/walking, anders sarcasticly referred to this b4 the boss fight in awakening ''the suspense is killing me!''
• Filler dialogue
• Filler puzzles which frustrate you for 5 mins until you realise how simple it is to solve
• Filler quests

also, you kinda just described dragonage kinda well, though some of the filler fights in the derp roads are kinda hard, like when evil spiders(web ability) team up with the evil orcs darkspawn wizards start casting spells and that but mostly its just filler fights.

[joriandrake]

Sago_mulch wrote...

OnlyShallow89 wrote...

Sago_mulch wrote...

combat cannot be that integral to the rpg genre if they allow you to be a pacifist, wait wat?

It's an uncommon path that rarely ever allows for no fighting. The Witcher 2, according to a recent interview, will allow a predominantly peaceful path, but it does have obligatory, non-avoidable combat.

And even in the RPGs where a completely pacifist option is available, it's rarely (if ever) encouraged and causes you to miss out on most of the game. The majority of the game will be built around combat, from game mechanics to dialogue options, to items you acquire and skills you take.

so would an rpg be an adventure game if it had more puzzles, item finding and no combat?

not aslong the character can evolve and has skills and abilities


if it has none of those then yes, it does become an adventure game,
otherwise it is still an RPG although a non-combat one

[Leinadi]

also, you kinda just described dragonage kinda well, though some of the filler fights in the derp roads are kinda hard, like when evil spiders(web ability) team up with the evil orcs darkspawn wizards start casting spells and that but mostly its just filler fights.

Hehe. Well, I know Dragon Age gets picked on rather a lot for having filler combat (and it is indeed very true of the Deep Roads). But I find this is true for every Bioware game there is (and again, pretty much every mainstream RPG I know of almost). At least Dragon Age *had* some challenging fights, which is more than one could say about something like KOTOR.



Hell, while the BGs (since they're regarded very highly generally speaking) had the best encounter design of the Bioware games, they still featured quite a bit of filler stuff as well.

[Haplose]

virumor wrote...

There are of course, exceptions, like Planescape: Torment (which would frankly be better without combat) 

Umm... why? Combat in Torment was pretty fun, even if rather easy most of the time. If there wasn't combat, how would we get to enjoy the probably coolest spell animations of all time? Also without game/combat mechanics we wouldn't be able to feel/measure the huge impact the character development/returning memories/relations developed with companions have. For example Dakkon's Zerth Blade made of chaos matter shaped by willpower would just be decoration, the fact that it's shape, sharpness and special properties depend on his mental state and relationship with the protagonist would have no meaning. Without combat you couldn't really discover how uber a certain level 1 spell that Dak'kon can teach the protagonist if they study the philosophy of Zerthimon together can become, given enough time and levels.


More on topic, I agree with people writing that cRPGs are more about character development and choices, rather then combat. So taking combat away wouldn't really change cRPGs into adventure games.
Take away stats and meaningfull choices that impact the gameworld and/or the protagonist and it would be a RGP no more.

[HoonDing]

Haplose wrote...

Umm... why? Combat in Torment was pretty fun, even if rather easy most of the time. If there wasn't combat, how would we get to enjoy the probably coolest spell animations of all time?

Leinadi wrote...

At least Dragon Age *had* some challenging fights, which is more than one could say about something like KOTOR.

KOTOR had some challenging fights as well, for instance that Mandalorian leader & his posse on Dantooine. And the leader of the Beks on Taris.

Modifié par virumor, 29 septembre 2010 - 10:01 .

[Mordaedil]

Because of the way you could play KotOR, you could find those fights very easy or very hard.

[Haplose]

virumor wrote...

Haplose wrote...

Umm... why? Combat in Torment was pretty fun, even if rather easy most of the time. If there wasn't combat, how would we get to enjoy the probably coolest spell animations of all time?

Quite. Well, okay, maybe some Final Fantasy's summons were cooler.
But still, cutscenes of spells like Mechanus' Cannon, Celestial Host, Symbol of Torment were all pretty awesome.

"Normal" spells were nicely animated too (in fact probably better then in DAO which has pretty poor and uninspired spell effects).

[Gaius Octavian]

Rubbish Hero wrote...



.

What game is that screenshot from? I could do with some hacking up of pixelated bodies right now.

[Mordaedil]

Gaius Octavian wrote...

Rubbish Hero wrote...



.

What game is that screenshot from? I could do with some hacking up of pixelated bodies right now.

Uhm... Fallout 3?

[brfritos]

Rubbish Hero wrote...

Why must almost every video game revolve around the act of killing or violence?
If I posted a nice looking pair of ****** om a foru I would probably be banned on the spot with lots of rage.. If I posted this..




Nobody bats an eyelid.
The way things work is very stupid I think. Boobs are designed to be nice. Killing bad.

Well, if you turn on your TV or go to the movies is the same thing.

So the problem isn't really "video games".

[Statulos]

Rubbish Hero wrote...

Why must almost every video game revolve around the act of killing or violence?
If I posted a nice looking pair of ****** om a foru I would probably be banned on the spot with lots of rage.. If I posted this..




Nobody bats an eyelid.
The way things work is very stupid I think. Boobs are designed to be nice. Killing bad.

I actually laughed when I saw the dismemberment.

[joriandrake]

slimgrin wrote...

Rubbish Hero wrote...

Do they become adventure games?

They become boring.

very not

[Sago_mulch]

joriandrake wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Rubbish Hero wrote...

Do they become adventure games?

They become boring.

very not

so walking around and doing nothing p.cool to you?

[FlintlockJazz]

Sago_mulch wrote...

joriandrake wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Rubbish Hero wrote...

Do they become adventure games?

They become boring.

very not

so walking around and doing nothing p.cool to you?

There are other things to do than combat.  Or at least there used to be...

[Sago_mulch]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Sago_mulch wrote...

joriandrake wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Rubbish Hero wrote...

Do they become adventure games?

They become boring.

very not

so walking around and doing nothing p.cool to you?

There are other things to do than combat.  Or at least there used to be...

lol, when?

unless its an adventure or puzzle game

[FlintlockJazz]

Sago_mulch wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Sago_mulch wrote...

joriandrake wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Rubbish Hero wrote...

Do they become adventure games?

They become boring.

very not

so walking around and doing nothing p.cool to you?

There are other things to do than combat.  Or at least there used to be...

lol, when?

unless its an adventure or puzzle game

Interacting with other characters.  Sneaking about.  Lockpicking.  Investigating clues.  Charming people into bed.  All these can use character stats that can be built up and reward xp for successful use.  Hell, some games like VtM: Bloodlines gave more xp rewards and benefits for completing many missions without getting into combat. 

A detective RPG, where you play as a Sherlock Holmes-type character whose character skill choices include medical and forensics skills instead of combat skills could be very interesting.