403 réponses à ce sujet

[netfire_]

The alliance has apparently done something bad, but its a democratic organization. You can just expose what they did, kick the bad people out and keep going. Cerberus isn't the same way. Besides, Thane is going to assassinate TIM in the next game.

[jbblue05]

[quote]Slayer299 wrote...

I don't have to prove its impossible, that's not my point as I've stated repeatedly. It's the combination of men, materiel, facilities, cost *and* logistics that make building a DN by Cerberus prohibitive.

[/quote]
Anything is possible

[quote]
So what you're saying is that Cerberus will keep all that information about the weapon for themselves because they can defeat the Reapers on their own?
[/quote]
Don't put words in my mouth.  I answered a similar question earlier in the thread.  The mass accelerator gun won't win the war but it will pack a hell of a punch 


[quote]
Why do you keep bringing up anyone attacking Cerberus *during* the war with the Reapers? I've said repeatedly that any govt's would wait until *after* the war was over.
[/quote]
I already answer the question in my last post

[quote]
I've never said anything even remotely like that. I have said that there are at least 100 Reapers and most probably over 1000, so how is 1 single weapon going to wipe them all out if Cerberus keeps that information for themselves? I've also pointed out that the Reapers are not stupid and will hunt down/ambush/trap the one, lonely, solitary dreadnaught as soon as they know about it. They have time on their side while we will not.
[/quote]
I NEVER said this weapon will win the entire war 
[quote]
JBB - why don't you show me why it's possible Cerberus can do it instead of just telling me that 'they can'.

@TheMightySamuel - Thanks for catching that 
[/quote]

Because anything is possible until proven impossible

In my post about EDI earlier it shows how its possible Cerberus can get the resources and have a remote location to build the dreadnought.

Talk to EDI she will show you how its not impossible for Cerberus

[/quote]

[Mr. Gogeta34]

So far Cerberus has been more than willing to share and will, bottom line, defeat the Reapers first. If that means revealing their full hand then they will, if it doesn't then they'll probably hold something back.

[Moiaussi]

jbblue05 wrote...

Don't put words in my mouth.  I answered a similar question earlier in the thread.  The mass accelerator gun won't win the war but it will pack a hell of a punch 

I am not sure why this is such a tough concept for you. It is not a matter of whether such a weapon would be useful.

It is the fact that TIM is withholding it from everyone else rather than sharing it and ensuring that there isn't only one (if he can field even one such weapon).

If TIM quits playing megalomaniac and actually starts thinking of galactic survival, he would cooperate with others rather than keep everything from them. It should be Alliance and Cerberus, not Alliance or Cerberus.

[Moiaussi]

Shandepared wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

It is the fact that TIM is withholding it from everyone else rather than sharing it and ensuring that there isn't only one (if he can field even one such weapon).

Except this isn't the case. This is what you want Cerberus to do so that you can justify hating them. However the Illusive Man has been sharing information.

One more time: when he got back the data from Aria he welcomed her to keep a copy and sell the info to anyone she pleased. At the end of Retribution TIM was relieved that the Alliance was taking the data seriously and would be continuining Cerberus' work.  This completely contradicts your accusations of Cerberus holding back.

Contradictory writing does not equate to good writing or good evidence. We know he withheld key information in ME2 multiple times. We also have no reason to believe that the Alliance are incorporating any super-mass accelerators into their new DN designs.

If he hadn't withheld information, the Collector cruiser would almost certainly have been taken out early and the whole human reaper threat dealt with by conventional forces. Shepard also would have been a lot more likely to have council support rather than be isolated, and would have been freed up to handle more strategicly valuable duties.

[Moiaussi]

Shandepared wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

Contradictory writing does not equate to good writing or good evidence.

Oh okay, never mind then. Anything that contradicts you is ****ty writing so it doesn't count. I get it. classy.

classy is completely ignoring why I consider that writing contradictory, which I explained.

[jbblue05]

Moiaussi wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

Don't put words in my mouth.  I answered a similar question earlier in the thread.  The mass accelerator gun won't win the war but it will pack a hell of a punch 

I am not sure why this is such a tough concept for you. It is not a matter of whether such a weapon would be useful.

It is the fact that TIM is withholding it from everyone else rather than sharing it and ensuring that there isn't only one (if he can field even one such weapon).

If TIM quits playing megalomaniac and actually starts thinking of galactic survival, he would cooperate with others rather than keep everything from them. It should be Alliance and Cerberus, not Alliance or Cerberus.

Maybe the Alliance and Council should stop calling him anti-alien and a terrorist and TIM would be nicer.
*sarcasm*

TIM has affiliations within the Alliance he could already be sharing intel with them.

 

[StarcloudSWG]

Since you don't seem to understand why it's an incredibly stupid idea to put all your eggs in one basket, I'll illustrate using a real-world example.

In World War 2, Germany built the single most powerful battleship ever constructed, the Bismarck. They launched it and gave the Captain orders to break out into the North Atlantic and harass shipping. They gave it two Cruisers as escorts in the break out attempt.

A few weeks later, the Bismarck was at the bottom of the sea, having been hunted down, disabled and destroyed by a *larger* fleet of *smaller* vessels.

Just because you can mount a really big gun on *one* ship does not mean it will be *actually* effective in fleet combat.

For another example, look at modern carrier operations. Each carrier is not alone out there. It is accompanied by a fleet of warships; cruisers, destroyers, frigates, on a variety of patrol and escort duties. Some are looking for submarines, others are there to screen out other ships, there's always fighters in the air on patrol.

Why? Because in World War 2, again, it became blindingly obvious that a single carrier, unescorted, is easy prey for even a small group of smaller ships.

Can Cerberus build a DN, given enough time? And crew it? And do it all in secret? And give it a supergun? Maybe. Would it be effective? No. Are there better uses of the limited resources Cerberus has available? YES.

Modifié par StarcloudSWG, 30 septembre 2010 - 01:19 .

[Moiaussi]

jbblue05 wrote...
Maybe the Alliance and Council should stop calling him anti-alien and a terrorist and TIM would be nicer.
*sarcasm*

TIM has affiliations within the Alliance he could already be sharing intel with them.

So you are saying all the things that happened under their banner in ME1 really didn't happen? And that if only the Alliance accepted their soldiers being used as guinea pigs, and the transportation of an illegal, very dangerous race (the rachni which hijacked a Cerberus ship and ended up taking on an Alliance listening post), or doing whatever got them declared rogue in the first place, that TIM would suddenly be cooperative?

And that it is some sort of great wisdom on TIM's part to withhold potentially crucial data even if it means everyone, including TIM falls to the Reapers?

Pardon?

[Slayer299]

jbblue05 wrote...
Anything is possible

When did you become and expert on Dreadnought expenses?
I'm sure Cerberus mobile space station cost upwards in the billions.
I don't see how its impossible for Cerberus to build one dreadnought.
Are you an accouuntant for TIM?

That's your answer? You wanted numbers and reason from me and I gave them to you. You criticized me for those numbers and wanted to know if I was a Cerberus accountant, well I don't know what to tell you. You argue for numbers and get them and then complain and follow up with answers like "because it's not impossible" and "talk to EDI". Did I miss a conversation with EDI about building a dreadnaught in secret? *sarcasm* Because EDI's conversation about building the Normandy2 states that they bought thousands of parts from the contractors and it took several years for the construction to be complete and this is for a large frigate.

You bring up the space station which cost billions or the Normandy's Tantalus drive which cost 120 billion and yet you will not accept the fact that a DN would cost significantly *more* than 1 Frigate and 1 mobile space station combined.

I've more than proved my point with you about the DN, anything further is pointless since you won't give me a single supporting piece of evidence beyond 'talk to EDI' and 'anything is possible'. You wish to believe that Cerberus will be all and do all because of TIM and that is your answer to everyone.

EDIT - added a line for clarity with EDI

Modifié par Slayer299, 30 septembre 2010 - 02:12 .

[Terastar]

You will NOT have the collectors base. Did you ever watch the ending of a dead Shepard who saved the base? The ending shows ships coming and guess what they all look like the Shadow Brokers ships going to the base. Now we have a good plot twist starting.

[StarcloudSWG]

Those aren't the Shadow Broker's ships. Those are TIM's ships.

[DPSSOC]

Moiaussi wrote...
If he hadn't withheld information, the Collector cruiser would almost certainly have been taken out early and the whole human reaper threat dealt with by conventional forces. Shepard also would have been a lot more likely to have council support rather than be isolated, and would have been freed up to handle more strategicly valuable duties.

The problem with this idea is perspective.  TIM looked at the data he received and linked the Collectors to the Reapers.  Now if he shared the raw data with the Council or Alliance to figure it out themselves they could draw different conclusions.  Alternatively had he sent the data along with his conclusions and how he came to those conclusions the antagonistic nature of his relationship with the Council and Alliance might lead them to dismiss it as trickery, no matter how well founded his conclusions.

It's the problem TIM states early on, diplomacy and sharing is hard when you're viewed as an enemy.  Not that that isn't his fault.

[Moiaussi]

DPSSOC wrote...

The problem with this idea is perspective.  TIM looked at the data he received and linked the Collectors to the Reapers.  Now if he shared the raw data with the Council or Alliance to figure it out themselves they could draw different conclusions.  Alternatively had he sent the data along with his conclusions and how he came to those conclusions the antagonistic nature of his relationship with the Council and Alliance might lead them to dismiss it as trickery, no matter how well founded his conclusions.

It's the problem TIM states early on, diplomacy and sharing is hard when you're viewed as an enemy.  Not that that isn't his fault.

We know that Cerberus has infiltrated the Alliance to a significant degree. It wouldn't be hard for him to leak information to them without it being easily traced back to him. If the Alliance decided not to respond, he would almost certainly have advance warning, and the Normandy could be on standby regardless. It is a stealth vessel after all.

If the Alliance did respond, then the would have gotten the same evidence TIM and Shepard got, and would have gotten it directly. There was no reason not to consider the Collectors a threat regardless of who they were working with, and analysis of Collector corpses would have provided the link to the Protheans.

Later on if the Collector cruiser got away, the Turians would have had plenty of incentive to investigate a false Turian distress signal, and that would have provided plenty of incentive for them to take the region more seriously.

TIM jammed the signal so they would not know.

And of course there is the issue of tech he is withholding....

In theory, TIM is trying to act on behalf of the human race, not merely himself, right? Be nice if he acted that way...

[Terastar]

Why do they look just like the Shadow Broker ship? Is TIM really an agent for the other old race?

[jbblue05]

Moiaussi wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...
Maybe the Alliance and Council should stop calling him anti-alien and a terrorist and TIM would be nicer.
*sarcasm*

TIM has affiliations within the Alliance he could already be sharing intel with them.

So you are saying all the things that happened under their banner in ME1 really didn't happen? And that if only the Alliance accepted their soldiers being used as guinea pigs, and the transportation of an illegal, very dangerous race (the rachni which hijacked a Cerberus ship and ended up taking on an Alliance listening post), or doing whatever got them declared rogue in the first place, that TIM would suddenly be cooperative?

And that it is some sort of great wisdom on TIM's part to withhold potentially crucial data even if it means everyone, including TIM falls to the Reapers?

Pardon?

I don''t see where I said that in my post.
Do you understandi the meaning of *sarcasm*

[jbblue05]

Slayer299 wrote...

[That's your answer? You wanted numbers and reason from me and I gave them to you. You criticized me for those numbers and wanted to know if I was a Cerberus accountant, well I don't know what to tell you. You argue for numbers and get them and then complain and follow up with answers like "because it's not impossible" and "talk to EDI". Did I miss a conversation with EDI about building a dreadnaught in secret? *sarcasm* Because EDI's conversation about building the Normandy2 states that they bought thousands of parts from the contractors and it took several years for the construction to be complete and this is for a large frigate.

You bring up the space station which cost billions or the Normandy's Tantalus drive which cost 120 billion and yet you will not accept the fact that a DN would cost significantly *more* than 1 Frigate and 1 mobile space station combined.

I've more than proved my point with you about the DN, anything further is pointless since you won't give me a single supporting piece of evidence beyond 'talk to EDI' and 'anything is possible'. You wish to believe that Cerberus will be all and do all because of TIM and that is your answer to everyone.

EDIT - added a line for clarity with EDI

Do you understand the meaning of anything is possible they can use the gun on a dreadnought.
They can co-develop with the Alliance like they did with the Normandy SR1
Thye can make a mini-weapon that can be custom-fitted on a Frigate or Cruiser just like what the turians did with the thanix cannon.

Cerberus wouldn't recover the gun if it wasn't useful.

You will never prove the DN can be built and neither can I its something we'll all find out in ME3
You said earlier that a DN would cost 100 billion+ credits  then I tell you how the Tantalus Drive Core costs 100+billion credits.
Now a DN will cost significanlty more than a 100+ billion credits
Bioware wouldn't mention Klendagon's Great Rift twice and then tell you Cerberus recovered the weapon if they didn't have plans for it in ME3

[StarcloudSWG]

They didn't recover the weapon. "The weapon was defunct, but the data we gathered pointed us at its target."

[Moiaussi]

jbblue05 wrote...

They can co-develop with the Alliance like they did with the Normandy SR1

Psst: The Normandy SR-1 was Turian/Alliance, not Cerberus/Alliance. Do you have evidence of Cerberus involvement from somewhere?

Regardless, when would they be doing this alleged 'co-development?' After the Reapers are already here and we no longer have the years it would take to build any such ships?

Thye can make a mini-weapon that can be custom-fitted on a Frigate or Cruiser just like what the turians did with the thanix cannon.

The indications were that it was a 'really big mass driver'.. we already have 'smaller' mass drivers. They are standard issue on existing ships.

Cerberus wouldn't recover the gun if it wasn't useful.

You will never prove the DN can be built and neither can I its something we'll all find out in ME3
You said earlier that a DN would cost 100 billion+ credits  then I tell you how the Tantalus Drive Core costs 100+billion credits.
Now a DN will cost significanlty more than a 100+ billion credits
Bioware wouldn't mention Klendagon's Great Rift twice and then tell you Cerberus recovered the weapon if they didn't have plans for it in ME3

As pointed out, that was mentioned as an explaination of how they found the gun's target, not that they found the gun intact.

[jbblue05]

StarcloudSWG wrote...

They didn't recover the weapon. "The weapon was defunct, but the data we gathered pointed us at its target."

Yes they did

[StarcloudSWG]

finding != recovering.

[jbblue05]

StarcloudSWG wrote...

finding != recovering.

You're telling me Cerberus located the weapon and just left it their

[Arijharn]

Why do they need to recover it anyway? The basics of mass accelerator weaponry is well understood, it's just that the larger the weapon, the more is needed to dampen recoil etc. The klendagon MAC isn't really some unknown, it is just a gigantic mass accelerator.