403 réponses à ce sujet

[jbblue05]

Moiaussi wrote...

Psst: The Normandy SR-1 was Turian/Alliance, not Cerberus/Alliance. Do you have evidence of Cerberus involvement from somewhere?

Regardless, when would they be doing this alleged 'co-development?' After the Reapers are already here and we no longer have the years it would take to build any such ships?

Talk to EDI she will tell you about Cerberus's involvement
I already know the turians made nice with the Alliance helping them build the SR1
Cerberus and the Alliance could've been building the ship for the past couple of years. Just like Cerberus built the Normandy SR2 qhile recovering Shepard's body

The indications were that it was a 'really big mass driver'.. we already have 'smaller' mass drivers. They are standard issue on existing ships.

The mass accelerator gun is powerful weapon even if its power is slightly reduced its more powerful then any other weapon out there

As pointed out, that was mentioned as an explaination of how they found the gun's target, not that they found the gun intact.

Was Sovereigns thanix cannon intact when it was salvaged by the Turians?.
The damage to the mass accelerator gun was never told by TIM just that the weapon was located

Modifié par jbblue05, 30 septembre 2010 - 03:13 .

[StarcloudSWG]

jbblue05 wrote...

StarcloudSWG wrote...

finding != recovering.

You're telling me Cerberus located the weapon and just left it their

Yes. I'm not sure you understand the *scale* needed; it would be highly impractical to move several miles of accelerator and dig up hundreds of thousands of cubic yards of earth just to move a planet-mounted installation for study. Also, TIM says outright, "They found both. The weapon was defunct, ..." That means non-functional. It was broken and not working any more.

Plus, Mass Accelerator technology is *very* well known; there's nothing to be gained by moving it or digging it up. Better to study it in situ, which Cerberus already did.

Finally, a planetary installation is a lousy way to mount a cannon of any kind. You can only shoot at a limited area, at a limited and easily predictable time.

Modifié par StarcloudSWG, 30 septembre 2010 - 03:15 .

[jbblue05]

StarcloudSWG wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

StarcloudSWG wrote...

finding != recovering.

You're telling me Cerberus located the weapon and just left it their

Yes. I'm not sure you understand the *scale* needed; it would be highly impractical to move several miles of accelerator and dig up hundreds of thousands of cubic yards of earth just to move a planet-mounted installation for study. 

Plus, Mass Accelerator technology is *very* well known; there's nothing to be gained by moving it or digging it up. Better to study it in situ, which Cerberus already did.

Finally, a planetary installation is a lousy way to mount a cannon of any kind. You can only shoot at a limited area, at a limited and easily predictable time.

You need to open your mind to the possibilities
The mass accelerator gun could've been an AA gun or on a dreadnought.or cruiser
Judging by the scar on Klendagon the gun had to be fired from a ship most likely a dreadnought.

Their is something definently to be gained from a weapon as powerful as the mass accelerator gun.
If it wasn't needed why would Cerberus recover it

[StarcloudSWG]

Ah, no. If it *had* been mounted on a dreadnaught, after 37 million years, there would have been no sign of the weapon or the ship it had been mounted on.



It was pretty clearly implied it was a planetary installation, and it *had to have been* huge to do that kind of damage at that kind of distance. There might well be advances in shock buffering, targeting systems, etc that might be useful, but taking the actual weapon itself would be pointless. Please try to think about more than just "Ooh, big gun, I want."

[jbblue05]

StarcloudSWG wrote...

Ah, no. If it *had* been mounted on a dreadnaught, after 37 million years, there would have been no sign of the weapon or the ship it had been mounted on.

It was pretty clearly implied it was a planetary installation, and it *had to have been* huge to do that kind of damage at that kind of distance. There might well be advances in shock buffering, targeting systems, etc that might be useful, but taking the actual weapon itself would be pointless. Please try to think about more than just "Ooh, big gun, I want."

Why can't it?  The Derelict Reaper was just hanging out in space for 37 million years. The collector base as been in the Galaxy's core probably since the Reapers started the cycle

And a dreadnought wouldn't be large enough for this weapon? Only TIM knows the true-size of that weapon

You should tell that the TIM but its too late he doesn't think the gun is pointless

Modifié par jbblue05, 30 septembre 2010 - 03:53 .

[StarcloudSWG]

"This, recruits, is a 12.5 centimeter ferrous slug. A dreadnaught's main gun fires..."



A dreadnaught's MAIN GUN produces an impact that's *only* three times the size of the Hiroshima bomb, which did *not* leave a valley that could be spotted from space as a major planetary feature.



Think about that. Think about the sheer amount of force it would take to create a *rift valley* on a planet. It's a calculateable thing. Then tell me that an installation capable of throwing a projectile across space with enough force to create a valley on another planet, can be fitted onto a dreadnaught.

[Arijharn]

A 'current galactic standard' dreadnought's main gun produces an impact that's *only* three...

We're talking about a legacy dreadnought from a galactic standard of 37 million years ago. Their classifications could be, if you pardon my pun, completely alien to what we know now.



Besides, TIM doesn't really explain the situation in any case.

[StarcloudSWG]

Arijharn wrote...

A 'current galactic standard' dreadnought's main gun produces an impact that's *only* three...
We're talking about a legacy dreadnought from a galactic standard of 37 million years ago. Their classifications could be, if you pardon my pun, completely alien to what we know now.

Besides, TIM doesn't really explain the situation in any case.

It doesn't matter whether you call it megatons or bolpops; the amount of force can be defined mathematically.
The amount of force needed to create a rift valley on another planet, through at least one atmosphere and a number of gravity wells that could have deflected the shot or slowed it down is tremendously larger. Several hundred times what a single dreadnaught main gun can produce.

This implies a very large mass (relatively speaking) accelerated to substantial fractions of the speed of light. Given that there's only so much you can do with materials science, the installation which fired the shot must have been huge and a darn sight larger than the Destiny Ascenscion's main gun.

Modifié par StarcloudSWG, 30 septembre 2010 - 05:24 .

[jbblue05]

StarcloudSWG wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

A 'current galactic standard' dreadnought's main gun produces an impact that's *only* three...
We're talking about a legacy dreadnought from a galactic standard of 37 million years ago. Their classifications could be, if you pardon my pun, completely alien to what we know now.

Besides, TIM doesn't really explain the situation in any case.

It doesn't matter whether you call it megatons or bolpops; the amount of force can be defined mathematically.
The amount of force needed to create a rift valley on another planet, through at least one atmosphere and a number of gravity wells that could have deflected the shot or slowed it down is tremendously larger. Several hundred times what a single dreadnaught main gun can produce.

This implies a very large mass (relatively speaking) accelerated to substantial fractions of the speed of light. Given that there's only so much you can do with materials science, the installation which fired the shot must have been huge and a darn sight larger than the Destiny Ascenscion's main gun.

The Reapers are dreadnoughts and you see the power of their thanix cannons.
The weapon mounted on the Reapers "spine" might be a mass accelerator weapon or capable of mass destruction.
The Reapers are millions of years more advanced thanus all technology is  based off the Reapers
It is likely the Species with the mass accelarator weapon progressed further then the Reapers had hoped.
You can'tcompare technology that's millions of years more advanced then the technology we have now

[StarcloudSWG]

... I'm not sure you understand what I'm getting at here. There are physical limits that are built into the universe. You can only do so much with materials science, and physics, before you run up against an impossible to breach wall, imposed by the universe's fundamental realities and laws.



The Thanix Cannon is simply another variation on a Mass Accelerator weapon. It's right there in the codex in game. The Reaper's main gun is a Mass Accelerator weapon. It's right there in the description of the Thanix cannon, in the codex, in game.

[jbblue05]

StarcloudSWG wrote...

... I'm not sure you understand what I'm getting at here. There are physical limits that are built into the universe. You can only do so much with materials science, and physics, before you run up against an impossible to breach wall, imposed by the universe's fundamental realities and laws.

The Thanix Cannon is simply another variation on a Mass Accelerator weapon. It's right there in the codex in game. The Reaper's main gun is a Mass Accelerator weapon. It's right there in the description of the Thanix cannon, in the codex, in game.

Do you understand the meaning millions of year more advanced.

Physical limits today would become irrelevant with better technology in the future.  Better technology= better understanding of the galaxy
Just look at element zero 


Thanix cannon isn't their only weapon.  Sovereign never unleashed the weapon on his spine 

[StarcloudSWG]

Millions of years more advanced does not equal able to break the laws of physics as established in the Mass Effect universe.

Modifié par StarcloudSWG, 30 septembre 2010 - 07:33 .

[Arijharn]

I understand what you're saying, but I'm no more inclined to believe that the MAC they found is more likely to be found planetside or in space. You argue about limitations due to physics, but that would be true on planetside as well, and in planetside they would have even more to worry about since on a planet they would need structural loading in a way that means that gravity would have to be dealt with.



I don't think you're necessarily wrong, just that there are alternatives.

[StarcloudSWG]

True. It might have been asteroid mounted. Which would have had the advantage of manuverability too. I'm just thinking that, since Newton's laws aren't suspended, they'd need a significant amount of mass to "push against" in order not to be knocked out of orbit.

[Arijharn]

But how are those limitations not handled by 'conventional' Dreadnoughts? It may have been that the economics for this ancient race to fire a MAC cannon that large were affordable, because that's the only real reason why our species aren't creating absolutely gigantic ones, it just isn't cost effective.



Planetside/Asteriod might be easier to find though, I'll admit.

[Moiaussi]

Arijharn wrote...

But how are those limitations not handled by 'conventional' Dreadnoughts? It may have been that the economics for this ancient race to fire a MAC cannon that large were affordable, because that's the only real reason why our species aren't creating absolutely gigantic ones, it just isn't cost effective.

Planetside/Asteriod might be easier to find though, I'll admit.

Mass. The DN's are considerably more massive than the rounds they fire, just as a human is much more massive than the bullet from the handgun the human might fire. Upscale that to a longarm, and the human might have to brace better. Upscale to a support weapon, and the weapon itself might have to be braced by more than just the human.

Upscale a DN's gun enough and it would need better bracing too.

[Arijharn]

Yes of course, but when it comes down to it, a Dreadnought's real limitation is the amount of money the builder (or contractor) is willing to spend on it. Obviously there's a cross over point between cost effectiveness and battlefield performance, but considering that a dreadnought is in space, then the support infrastructure for a gigantic mass accelerator would be less than a planet based weapon system and has the added bonus of being a pretty damn awesome stand off weapon (that can presumably be deployed 'on the front lines' whereas by it's very nature as a static emplacement, a planet one would be purely defensive.



Look, the Mass Effect core for the Normandy is comparatively double the size in regards to ordinary Systems Alliance frigate designations. As we see, despite this, it's possible to construct, it's just exponentially much more expensive to produce.



That's what I'm getting at. This 37 million year old gigantic reaper-destroyer could very well exist as a Dreadnought, and the only reason why it couldn't exist now is that its prohibitively expensive to produce, not because it's impossible to produce.

[fongiel24]

Arijharn wrote...

Yes of course, but when it comes down to it, a Dreadnought's real limitation is the amount of money the builder (or contractor) is willing to spend on it. Obviously there's a cross over point between cost effectiveness and battlefield performance, but considering that a dreadnought is in space, then the support infrastructure for a gigantic mass accelerator would be less than a planet based weapon system and has the added bonus of being a pretty damn awesome stand off weapon (that can presumably be deployed 'on the front lines' whereas by it's very nature as a static emplacement, a planet one would be purely defensive.

Look, the Mass Effect core for the Normandy is comparatively double the size in regards to ordinary Systems Alliance frigate designations. As we see, despite this, it's possible to construct, it's just exponentially much more expensive to produce.

That's what I'm getting at. This 37 million year old gigantic reaper-destroyer could very well exist as a Dreadnought, and the only reason why it couldn't exist now is that its prohibitively expensive to produce, not because it's impossible to produce.

I think the cost to build such a dreadnought makes it pretty unlikely that the Klendagon gun was space-based. The dreadnought on which the gun was mounted would have to contend with Newton's Third Law, meaning it would have to have the engine power and bracing to withstand the recoil of its weapon. More bracing and bigger/more engines would mean a bigger ship overall. It's not just the gun that would have to be huge - the ship itself would have to be huge. It's the same obstacle battleship designers ran into in the 1930s. If you want bigger guns, you need a bigger ship. You want a bigger ship, you need more armour to protect it. You want more armour, you need bigger engines to propel it. You want bigger engines, you need more fuel to power them. You want more room for fuel, you need an even bigger ship... and so on and so forth.

While it's possible the extinct alien race had the economic resources to pay for such a ship, they still have to mine and refine the materials and find the time to construct it. That's what makes its placement on a ship unlikely to me, since if they just mounted it on a planet (or asteroid), they can have it ready in the time it takes to build the gun, rather than having to wait for the ship to be built.

[DPSSOC]

I always thought the MAC was sort of Death Starish, a single space station designed as a weapon. We know this is possible because the Relays work on the same principle, accellerating large masses to ridiculous speeds, and manage to remain fairly stationary. This would also explain why it hasn't been found, locating a cold body in space is remarkably difficult. So really the only assumption we need to make is that some race managed to work out how the Mass Relays remain stationary despite the massive recoil that would be generated flinging ships at FTL speeds. Or maybe the weapon was 1st-gen research on building their own relays repurposed as a weapon.

[Arijharn]

fongiel24 wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

Yes of course, but when it comes down to it, a Dreadnought's real limitation is the amount of money the builder (or contractor) is willing to spend on it. Obviously there's a cross over point between cost effectiveness and battlefield performance, but considering that a dreadnought is in space, then the support infrastructure for a gigantic mass accelerator would be less than a planet based weapon system and has the added bonus of being a pretty damn awesome stand off weapon (that can presumably be deployed 'on the front lines' whereas by it's very nature as a static emplacement, a planet one would be purely defensive.

Look, the Mass Effect core for the Normandy is comparatively double the size in regards to ordinary Systems Alliance frigate designations. As we see, despite this, it's possible to construct, it's just exponentially much more expensive to produce.

That's what I'm getting at. This 37 million year old gigantic reaper-destroyer could very well exist as a Dreadnought, and the only reason why it couldn't exist now is that its prohibitively expensive to produce, not because it's impossible to produce.

I think the cost to build such a dreadnought makes it pretty unlikely that the Klendagon gun was space-based. The dreadnought on which the gun was mounted would have to contend with Newton's Third Law, meaning it would have to have the engine power and bracing to withstand the recoil of its weapon. More bracing and bigger/more engines would mean a bigger ship overall. It's not just the gun that would have to be huge - the ship itself would have to be huge. It's the same obstacle battleship designers ran into in the 1930s. If you want bigger guns, you need a bigger ship. You want a bigger ship, you need more armour to protect it. You want more armour, you need bigger engines to propel it. You want bigger engines, you need more fuel to power them. You want more room for fuel, you need an even bigger ship... and so on and so forth.

While it's possible the extinct alien race had the economic resources to pay for such a ship, they still have to mine and refine the materials and find the time to construct it. That's what makes its placement on a ship unlikely to me, since if they just mounted it on a planet (or asteroid), they can have it ready in the time it takes to build the gun, rather than having to wait for the ship to be built.

I don't think it's likely that any version of the weapon was constructed for use against the Reapers (since they have a habit of ambushes), and I'm not sure talking about the expense of creating a super dreadnought makes it that irrelevant because we have no idea of what their economic state was (perhaps it was a paranoid military dictatorship? Perhaps they were a race of giants like the Zentraedi? Who knows!)

[BluSoldier]

PWENER wrote...

lovgreno wrote...

 the Alliance is simply stronger than Cerberus.

For now..... remember the Collector Base? 

Remember when I blew it up? 

[naledgeborn]

Alliance. Necro.

[ExtremeOne]

Cerberus 3:16

[ExtremeOne]

Cerberus 3:16