76 réponses à ce sujet

[Fiery Phoenix]

PWENER wrote...

Hope so, It's a reason to kill them. Oh wait, I already did that.

lol

You're too much, dude!

[PsyrenY]

Hanlon's Razor anyone?

[Nimander]

I doubt they're indoctrinated, though I do think some sort of partial indoctrination from examining Sovereign's remains would be interesting. Not full on, just enough for them to doubt.



I kind of agree that there is an argument for them to simply be not telling Shephard everything. However. At the same time, I really don't want them to be fully supportive, either. They've spent so much time in ME1 being a pain in the butt and a lot of what we saw in ME2 suggests they stuck their heads in the sand again.



What I'm hoping for personally is they actually do believe in the Reaper threat, and are playing a not-so-nice long game. As in, they have created, without records, Ilos-like places (but better prepared, as this is their purpose) to go dark and ride out the storm. Basically 'sacrificing the galaxy for the good of the future'. Reaper shelters instead of bomb shelters. Maybe with humans, maybe still not actually wanting humans and without.



And then Shephard could step up and tell them to go to hell for being cowards, and save the day.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

I don't don't think the "withholding information" bit sticks too well...



Before Shepard died they had him chasing Geth and had already assumed the Reapers were Geth ships. They believe the Geth have been made to believe the Reapers are real by Saren (who may have even built some... or mass produced them).



It'll be hard convincing them out of that cycle of logic.

[Purge the heathens]

Two wild guesses.



We still know little about indoctrination. It's possible that Reapers can regulate the degree to which someone is indoctrinated, as the salarians on Virmire got turned into vegetables pretty quickly while Saren retained most of his mind even though he should have spent much more time around Sovereign. And Vigil was apparently able to detect whether someone's indoctrinated or not, so it seems reasonable that Reapers can do this, too. So couldn't it be possible that, say, the Council chambers have an indoctrination field that "switches off" once a certain, mild degree of indoctrination is reached in the government leaders residing there.?



Withholding information works for me, too. Anderson is already withholding information about Ashley's/Kaidan's whereabouts and admits he couldn't tell you if you talk to him after Horizon. That's one secretive councilor already. Hell, they might even be thinking that Cerberus is actually working for the Reapers. At the very least, they (or just the Alliance) suspected Cerberus to be involved with the abductions. And the Commander? "No, Shepard... You are indoctrinated."

[P3G4SU5]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

I don't don't think the "withholding information" bit sticks too well...

Before Shepard died they had him chasing Geth and had already assumed the Reapers were Geth ships. They believe the Geth have been made to believe the Reapers are real by Saren (who may have even built some... or mass produced them).

It'll be hard convincing them out of that cycle of logic.

No one can definitively say at this stage whether the Council were genuinely denying the existence of the Reapers, or simply passing Sovereign off as a Geth construct in the interest of maintaining stability while they formulated strategies to deal with the Reaper threat.

It makes sense that Shepard was sent after the Geth forces as they were a more immediate threat than the Reapers, who are travelling all the way from dark space. There would be no point in involving Shepard while the pockets of Geth were still fighting and there is no plan on how to fight the Reapers.

I sincerely hope the Council are not the blind fools that some people on this forum think they are. I'd expect the leaders of the galactic council to have reached their positions due to possessing some degree of intellect and sense, such as when they have been presented with the hard suit data from Shepard's squad, detailing all of their ME1 exploits, including the dialogues with Vigil and Sovereign itself. <_<

[Mr. Gogeta34]

P3G4SU5 wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

I don't don't think the "withholding information" bit sticks too well...

Before Shepard died they had him chasing Geth and had already assumed the Reapers were Geth ships. They believe the Geth have been made to believe the Reapers are real by Saren (who may have even built some... or mass produced them).

It'll be hard convincing them out of that cycle of logic.

No one can definitively say at this stage whether the Council were genuinely denying the existence of the Reapers, or simply passing Sovereign off as a Geth construct in the interest of maintaining stability while they formulated strategies to deal with the Reaper threat.

It makes sense that Shepard was sent after the Geth forces as they were a more immediate threat than the Reapers, who are travelling all the way from dark space. There would be no point in involving Shepard while the pockets of Geth were still fighting and there is no plan on how to fight the Reapers.

I sincerely hope the Council are not the blind fools that some people on this forum think they are. I'd expect the leaders of the galactic council to have reached their positions due to possessing some degree of intellect and sense, such as when they have been presented with the hard suit data from Shepard's squad, detailing all of their ME1 exploits, including the dialogues with Vigil and Sovereign itself. <_<

Problem there is that during that time, the Council had NO reason to deny Shepard.  At the end of ME1, Shepard said he'd find some way to stop the Reapers.  Council had other plans... they said "fight the Geth instead."

After saving their lives/giving them their promotion, they have no reason to lie to Shepard... they really don't know/believe that the Reapers are real.

[Moiaussi]

It doesn't help that Shepard is much more prone to crazy rants than to reasoned debate, seems to have no concept of independant evidence gathering, and seems to roll over rather easily for TIMmy.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Wouldn't do any good really, no evidence they could really find that the Council can't blame on fabrication or a ruse Saren made to rally the Geth that still lingers.

[Moiaussi]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Wouldn't do any good really, no evidence they could really find that the Council can't blame on fabrication or a ruse Saren made to rally the Geth that still lingers.

Actual intact prothean artifacts are another matter. Unless they are going to conclude that Saren somehow can reprogram them... or that Saren was able to re-arrange Collector dna to that degree....  or more recently that TIM can.... or that either managed to completely coopt the collectors to that degree....

[JediSoth]

It's possible the Council is just obfuscating in order to mess with Shepard, like the French in Monty Python and the Holy Grail.



Turian Councillor: Ah yes, "Reapers," we have dismissed that claim.

*mutes mic*: I told him we didn't believe in Reapers anymore.

*council snickers*



After they see you getting ticked off, they offer to reinstate your Spectre status as a way of throwing you a bone.

[Aedan_Cousland]

I don't think the Council is indoctrinated.

After all they were indoctrinated Sovereign wouldn't need Saren in Me1. Me1 would have played out something like this:

Sovereign: Would you be so kind as to activate the Citadel? I've got some friends I'd like to invite over.

Turian Councillor: Ah yes, "friends." We've dismissed those claims. But I'll have it activated at once.

Sovereign: Ummm, ok. Great, thanks.

****Civilization destroyed****

Huskified Udina: THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!





If the Council was indoctrinated in between ME1 and ME2, they'd also be a lot more active in trying to stop Shepard. For example you'd probably be arrested as soon you stepped foot on the Citadel.

Modifié par Aedan_Cousland, 27 septembre 2010 - 08:50 .

[Kenshen]

Prince of Kemet wrote...

I don't think that the council is indoctrinated. If you go back to when Shep was talking to the council...remember when the Turian counselor did his famous, ah yes finger quote thing....the moment he says, "We have dismissed those claims" he looks at the other two council members as if to say, yeah we know the truth but, we don't want you to know that we know. So what I got from this was, the council does know, they just don't trust Shep enough to reveal their plans for the reapers. That's just my take on the matter.

I was thinking this too when I watched that part last time but why would they lie or cover up knowing the truth to Shepard?  I can understand withholding this intel to the public but Shep is someone that does the councils dirty work.  If you can't trust a spectre then who can you trust.

And it isn't like they gave us a chance to explain the Cerbrus part and why we are working with them.  Then to top it all off if you refuse there offer they make threats.  I am very surprised that ME2 didn't deal with the council more than it did.  I hope that DLC will offer more insight to what they are actually thinking.

Oh also if they are lying or keeping secrets from Shepard then they must be doing the same with Anderson/Udina.  I can not see that ending well for anyone if that was true.

[phatpat63]

They act stupid enough to make you wonder, but it just comes down to crap writing.
"How are we going to halfway justify forcing the player working with Cerberus, whether they want to or not?"
"We'll just have the Council blow the player off."
"But what if they saved the Council?"
"Whatever."

Modifié par phatpat63, 27 septembre 2010 - 09:50 .

[Iakus]

aryon69 wrote...

Prince of Kemet wrote...

I don't think that the council is indoctrinated. If you go back to when Shep was talking to the council...remember when the Turian counselor did his famous, ah yes finger quote thing....the moment he says, "We have dismissed those claims" he looks at the other two council members as if to say, yeah we know the truth but, we don't want you to know that we know. So what I got from this was, the council does know, they just don't trust Shep enough to reveal their plans for the reapers. That's just my take on the matter.

I was thinking this too when I watched that part last time but why would they lie or cover up knowing the truth to Shepard?  I can understand withholding this intel to the public but Shep is someone that does the councils dirty work.  If you can't trust a spectre then who can you trust.

And it isn't like they gave us a chance to explain the Cerbrus part and why we are working with them.  Then to top it all off if you refuse there offer they make threats.  I am very surprised that ME2 didn't deal with the council more than it did.  I hope that DLC will offer more insight to what they are actually thinking.

Oh also if they are lying or keeping secrets from Shepard then they must be doing the same with Anderson/Udina.  I can not see that ending well for anyone if that was true.

In addition, Shep is the one who convinced them of the Reaper's existence.  It was Shepard who followed the clues, accessed the beacon, and the Cipher.  It was Shep  spoke to Sovereign on Virmire and Vigil on Ilos and in the end, stopped the Reaper invasion to begin with.  Plus nearly got flattened by a rather large chunk of the claim they dismissed


I don't think the Council is indoctrinated.  But I'm wondering if they're going to be retconned into becoming so to cover the illogical behavior of the Council.  In my opinion, it was yet another heavy handed attempt to keep the story on the rails.

[Sajuro]

Ah yes "Reapers" the immortal race of sentient starships allegedly waiting in dark space, we have dismissed that claim.
There you go, Shepard dismissed that claim at the end of Mass Effect

[MrnDvlDg161]

Be funny its as simple as them being idiots and not very good at governing the Galaxy.



Turian Council Member: Order! Order I say... what is the next stage of business for this legislative session?



( From down the long meeting table there is a audible belch followed by some laughing)



Asari Council Member: What the hell?!? --- What was that ----



Udina: Ahhh...ssss...hut up...you...blue...b...ch.... ( Hic! Hic!) ( drinks more beer)



Salarian: You get worse by the month, have you no respect for your self?



Anderson: Udina --- gtf out here



Udina: Screw you --- I SHOULD HAVE BEEN TH--- ( Anderson slugs Udina yet AGAIN and knocks him out).



Anderson: Now I wanted you all to consider the threat of the Reapers and Shep...



Turian: Ohhh Reapers this. Reapers that. Then you bring up old dead relics of a past man and his zoo of a crew using tax payer funds to go on expensive joy rides in the Terminus System. We have bigger issues Anderson! A Galactic Free Health Care proposal and pending building permits for a better Red Light District in the Presidium Ward. ( Slyly winks at the Asari Special Interest group agent at the far end)



Salarian Council Member: I'm hungry --- lets break for lunch. Skillian Ramen anyone?



Assari council Member: Oooo! Skillian Ramen. I love Skillian Ramen! Lets go!



Turian Council Member: Well this day is adjourned. Lets all break for Skillian Ramen!



Anderson: But the Reapers! Shepard! The Collectors!



( They all laugh and throw crushed paper balls and empty coffee cups at Anderson as they head on out --- Udina stumbling behind with another flask in his hand).

[Annihilator27]

The turian is indoctrination proof.

[Moiaussi]

Aedan_Cousland wrote...

If the Council was indoctrinated in between ME1 and ME2, they'd also be a lot more active in trying to stop Shepard. For example you'd probably be arrested as soon you stepped foot on the Citadel.

It depends on the degree, especially with noone there to actually command them. Simply arresting Shepard might also have had too much politcal backlash to be wise. Remember they never actually declared him dead.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

You were sent to fight the Geth before you were killed and before you teamed up with Cerberus. The Council denied the Reaper's existence even then.

The thing is, with certain endings of ME1, they certainly don't seem to have any trouble believing in the Reapers.

And with all the omni-tools running around, it's hard to believe that none of the evidence of the Reapers was recorded in ME1...

[P3G4SU5]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

P3G4SU5 wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...
I don't don't think the "withholding information" bit sticks too well...

Before Shepard died they had him chasing Geth and had already assumed the Reapers were Geth ships. They believe the Geth have been made to believe the Reapers are real by Saren (who may have even built some... or mass produced them).It'll be hard convincing them out of that cycle of logic.

No one can definitively say at this stage whether the Council were genuinely denying the existence of the Reapers, or simply passing Sovereign off as a Geth construct in the interest of maintaining stability while they formulated strategies to deal with the Reaper threat.

It makes sense that Shepard was sent after the Geth forces as they were a more immediate threat than the Reapers, who are travelling all the way from dark space. There would be no point in involving Shepard while the pockets of Geth were still fighting and there is no plan on how to fight the Reapers.

I sincerely hope the Council are not the blind fools that some people on this forum think they are. I'd expect the leaders of the galactic council to have reached their positions due to possessing some degree of intellect and sense, such as when they have been presented with the hard suit data from Shepard's squad, detailing all of their ME1 exploits, including the dialogues with Vigil and Sovereign itself. <_<

Problem there is that during that time, the Council had NO reason to deny Shepard.  At the end of ME1, Shepard said he'd find some way to stop the Reapers.  Council had other plans... they said "fight the Geth instead."

As I already said, the remaining geth forces were the more immediate threat to the Citadel than the Reapers, for reasons already given. Sending him to fight geth is the most useful contribution Shepard could be making at that point.

After saving their lives/giving them their promotion, they have no reason to lie to Shepard... they really don't know/believe that the Reapers are real.

You missed my point. During that time when Shepard is aiding the geth clean-up operation, there is no reason for the Council to reveal their long term plan to Shepard, or even discuss it when they need him focused on eliminating the remaining geth forces. There is no actual outright denial of the Reaper threat to Shepard whilst he is helping to eradicate the geth. It is not until 2 years later when you meet with the Council again, whilst collaborating with a terrorist group that they appear to be denying the Reaper existence.

Further to the point in my earlier post, the intro text to ME2 states: "...the Council is forced to respond to evidence that the Reapers - enormous machines that eradicate all organic civilisation every 50,000 years have returned. To quell the rumours, the Council has sent Commander Shepard and the Normandy to wipe out the last pockets of geth resistance. Officially, they blame the invasion on the geth and their leader, a rogue Spectre."

For me, this states pretty clearly that the Council wanted the Reaper threat kept quiet, and insinuates that they are promoting the geth-Sovereign cover story whilst unofficially working behind the scenes. The fact the word 'officially' is used at all when it could have been omitted altogether means that they are indeed selling one cover-story to the public whilst believing something quite different.

Modifié par P3G4SU5, 28 septembre 2010 - 03:08 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

P3G4SU5 wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

P3G4SU5 wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...
I don't don't think the "withholding information" bit sticks too well...

Before Shepard died they had him chasing Geth and had already assumed the Reapers were Geth ships. They believe the Geth have been made to believe the Reapers are real by Saren (who may have even built some... or mass produced them).It'll be hard convincing them out of that cycle of logic.

No one can definitively say at this stage whether the Council were genuinely denying the existence of the Reapers, or simply passing Sovereign off as a Geth construct in the interest of maintaining stability while they formulated strategies to deal with the Reaper threat.

It makes sense that Shepard was sent after the Geth forces as they were a more immediate threat than the Reapers, who are travelling all the way from dark space. There would be no point in involving Shepard while the pockets of Geth were still fighting and there is no plan on how to fight the Reapers.

I sincerely hope the Council are not the blind fools that some people on this forum think they are. I'd expect the leaders of the galactic council to have reached their positions due to possessing some degree of intellect and sense, such as when they have been presented with the hard suit data from Shepard's squad, detailing all of their ME1 exploits, including the dialogues with Vigil and Sovereign itself. <_<

Problem there is that during that time, the Council had NO reason to deny Shepard.  At the end of ME1, Shepard said he'd find some way to stop the Reapers.  Council had other plans... they said "fight the Geth instead."

As I already said, the remaining geth forces were the more immediate threat to the Citadel than the Reapers, for reasons already given. Sending him to fight geth is the most useful contribution Shepard could be making at that point.

After saving their lives/giving them their promotion, they have no reason to lie to Shepard... they really don't know/believe that the Reapers are real.

You missed my point. During that time when Shepard is aiding the geth clean-up operation, there is no reason for the Council to reveal their long term plan to Shepard, or even discuss it when they need him focused on eliminating the remaining geth forces. There is no actual outright denial of the Reaper threat to Shepard whilst he is helping to eradicate the geth. It is not until 2 years later when you meet with the Council again, whilst collaborating with a terrorist group that they appear to be denying the Reaper existence.

Further to the point in my earlier post, the intro text to ME2 states: "...the Council is forced to respond to evidence that the Reapers - enormous machines that eradicate all organic civilisation every 50,000 years have returned. To quell the rumours, the Council has sent Commander Shepard and the Normandy to wipe out the last pockets of geth resistance. Officially, they blame the invasion on the geth and their leader, a rogue Spectre."

For me, this states pretty clearly that the Council wanted the Reaper threat kept quiet, and insinuates that they are promoting the geth-Sovereign cover story whilst unofficially working behind the scenes. The fact the word 'officially' is used at all when it could have been omitted altogether means that they are indeed selling one cover-story to the public whilst believing something quite different.

Which would leave one to believe that Shepard never had a role to play besides PR in stopping the Reapers (in the Council's eyes...) which doesn't seem that likely considering what he'd just done.  If they were working on a way to combat the Reapers, Shepard of all people would know about it.

He's the only one to have truly faced one and encountered prothean beacons.  He'd be invaluable to the aiding of that plan.  If they were really doing a mock campaign against the Geth (mind you also that Geth resistence was actually quite low when ME2 starts) then Shepard would still come back and assist with the secret plan from time to time (you'd think).

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 28 septembre 2010 - 03:22 .

[JG The Gamer]

Nah, just blind stubborn morons who are too scared and stupid to face the truth. They had a Reaper tapping on the window of the Citadel Tower and they STILL dismiss that claim.

[P3G4SU5]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...
Which would leave one to believe that Shepard never had a role to play besides PR in stopping the Reapers (in the Council's eyes...) which doesn't seem that likely considering what he'd just done.  If they were working on a way to combat the Reapers, Shepard of all people would know about it.

He's the only one to have truly faced one and encountered prothean beacons.  He'd be invaluable to the aiding of that plan.  If they were really doing a mock campaign against the Geth (mind you also that Geth resistence was actually quite low when ME2 starts) then Shepard would still come back and assist with the secret plan from time to time (you'd think).

I never said the Council planned to keep Shepard out of the loop forever. It's possible the Council needed more time to analyse the evidence and intelligence gathered on the Reapers and also see what data could be gained from Ilos which could aid them against the Reapers - in fact in ME2 you hear that teams have been sent to Ilos with Alliance escorts to recover what remains.

The campaign against the geth was not fabricated, the reason geth resistance is low at the beginning of ME2 (post -resurrection) is because of the mopping up operations by Council forces over a 2 year period whilst Shepard was reconstructed. As for Shepard being called back from time to time to assist with planning - that may have been the Council's intention, however Shepard was unexpectedly KIA and was known to be associated with Cerberus at their next meeting, which still explains their attitude.

Modifié par P3G4SU5, 28 septembre 2010 - 04:10 .