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[Nightwriter]

Does this mean I must go through most of the game staring at Jacob's painfully skintight pants and Miranda's ridiculously shaped ass without the luxury of slapping on some black outfits that cover it up?

[Fiery Phoenix]

Let's just say that's totally not the kind of response I expected from you.

[smudboy]

Nightwriter wrote...

And I never knew what the hell was going on in ME2. Felt like an acid trip. With great characters. And cool cinematics.

Holy crap!  I realized this just yesterday when someone asked me to clarify what a plot is in another thread.  I thought I had a generally good idea of ME2's, but when I tried to figure it out...

Looking back I'm still not sure what the hell was going on.

[Turin_4]

The idea of pressing a button on any gun and getting some kind of...coating? Add-on? Doesn't make sense. It throws away weapon mods from the first game, which was not only a game play function, but a whole integral culture. This isn't as bad as retconning the other guns features, but it's still bad. There were illegal weapon mods in the Wards, special upgrades to find, which ends up in special ways to customize your guns. Here we just simply get some rock-paper-scissors thing with any gun. Heck, in ME2 there's mention of illegal weapons tech by Pitne, but we've no clue what that is. I would've certainly liked some illegal weapons tech for my Suicide Mission.

As for weapons powers...all that is functionally different is that in ME1, anyone anywhere anytime can mod any weapon or any bit of ammunition (which is strange, considering ammunition is supposed to be just stripped off pieces of a block of metal in ME1; I don't recall the codex explanation for it, though). They can do this instantly, in combat or out of it (I'm actually not certain if it can be done in combat-can anyone refresh my memory?).



In ME2, however, not everyone - but still quite a few, everyone with weapon specialities - can modify ammunition to fire specialized ammo, and instead of it being instantaneous, it actually takes a moment.



Yeah, that sounds much less realistic.



Your complaint about cooldowns, however, is much more reasonable. It makes sense that same-group powers would be on the same cooldown, or at least biotic cooldowns. They all come from the same amps after all. But not biotics and techs, or ammo and adrenaline. That's just an artificial gameplay decision.



Though truthfully I understand why they did it, because the gameplay in ME2 wasn't that hard even on Insanity with global cooldowns.

[Nightwriter]

Grunt's. I remember in Grunt's recruitment mission I had no idea what the hell was going on.

And when I walked out of TIM's hologram-y thingy for the first time. So disoriented. Perplexed. Confused.

Jacob's loyalty mission also. Confused. Much confusion.

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

Let's just say that's totally not the kind of response I expected from you.

But it's an honest question! I can't take the characters seriously when they look like that!

And anyway I still don't get Legion as early as I'd like. And anyway anyway I get like 3 two-second plot missions throughout the whole game to actually use my characters on. I mean really, Phoenix, didn't you feel like the characters were really disconnected?

Modifié par Nightwriter, 05 octobre 2010 - 01:59 .

[Fiery Phoenix]

Nightwriter wrote...

But it's an honest question! I can't take the characters seriously when they look like that!

And anyway I still don't get Legion as early as I'd like. And anyway anyway I get like 3 two-second plot missions throughout the whole game to actually use my characters on. I mean really, Phoenix, didn't you feel like the characters were really disconnected?

The characters are and will always be disconnected throughout the game, since their true purpose was never explained, so let's just move on.

That said, I find this "method" of playing ME2 to make sense; it also allows me to get the most out of everyone before the end. It can't and won't fix the issues you're talking about because that's a problem with the game, not the characters.

Try playing ME2 like I suggested on your next playthrough and let me know how it works for you.

[smudboy]

Turin_4 wrote...

As for weapons powers...all that is functionally different is that in ME1, anyone anywhere anytime can mod any weapon or any bit of ammunition (which is strange, considering ammunition is supposed to be just stripped off pieces of a block of metal in ME1; I don't recall the codex explanation for it, though). They can do this instantly, in combat or out of it (I'm actually not certain if it can be done in combat-can anyone refresh my memory?).

In ME2, however, not everyone - but still quite a few, everyone with weapon specialities - can modify ammunition to fire specialized ammo, and instead of it being instantaneous, it actually takes a moment.

Yeah, that sounds much less realistic.

I know.  Just anyone can press a button and boom!  Ammo can now light people on fire, etc.

Oh wait, you were being sarcastic?  Give me a freaking break!  How is pushing on a gun make it have pieces of FIRE come out of it, be very effective against "shields" and biotic barriers, that anyone can do, as opposed to an actual attachment to the gun that gives it a particular weapon type?  That's way more believable.

[Nightwriter]

K. When do you do Overlord?

[Fiery Phoenix]

Nightwriter wrote...

K. When do you do Overlord?

Within the sidequests stage. I usually do it right before heading to get the Reaper IFF; that is, it is usually the last assignment I do.

[Nightwriter]

Ah, okay. I just know there's a Legion comment in that mission - about the only squadmember comment you get - and I was wondering if you could squeeze it in after you recruit Legion.

[Frybread76]

Pauravi wrote...

Frybread76 wrote...

I just hope they bring back an inventory and more talents/powers for each character.

I really hope they DON'T bring back the inventory.  I thought it was tedious, and doesn't make any sense at all.  No soldier could or would carry around 23 suits of combat armor, 17 shotguns, and 35 assault rifles just so that they can try and hock them at some random swap meet.  What good is money anyway?  You find so many guns laying around that you'd never buy one, and the Spectre weapons make them all obsolete anyway.  Besides, a soldier takes what he needs and no more.  Upgrading stuff is fine and dandy, but there are no Bags of Holding in ME.  Huge inventories make no sense and don't add anything to the experience unless you like packratting, and I don't find sifting through hundreds of items to be that compelling a gameplay mechanic.

As far as powers, I'd like more powers too, but actually characters get about the same number of actual powers as they had in ME1.  Take Vanguard, for instance.

In ME1 they had Barrier, Lift, Throw, and Warp, for a total of four.
In ME2 they have Pull (Lift), Shockwave, and Charge, and Barrier is learnable from Jacob (or one of the other several powers).  Four, again, and certainly stronger powers that emphasize the Vanguard's close combat style.

In ME1, Adepts had Lift, Singularity, Throw, Warp, Barrier, and Stasis, for 6 total.
In ME2, Adepts have Pull, Singularity, Throw, Warp, and Shockwave, and Barrier, Stasis (with LotSB), Reave, Dominate, or Slam are learnable.  5 total.

So, pretty close as far as the number of powers go, except that you have far more choice with that last power.  The only thing missing are powers which have already been brought back or incorporated in other ways (Unity, Charm / Intimidate, AI Hacking, Overload), some of which were lame passives that didn't add much (Tactical Armor, Assault Training), and some of which wouldn't make any sense to bring back anyway (Weapon skills?  Who ever heard of a Spectre who can't shoot straight?  Preposterous!).

The only thing they really changed with the powers was the point system, and even that isn't THAT much different.  In ME1 each skill had "tiers" where you got something meaningful with "X" number of points, and in between you just got some lame +2% damage that made basically zero difference.  All they did was make you buy skills in whole tiers.  This actually makes things somewhat more strategic -- are you willing to waste a point or two to get another big Improved Power?  Or do you want to make maximum use of your points?

I think the character improvement system is just fine and makes sense in the context of Shepard already being a veteran soldier and Spectre.

Did I say i wanted to bring back the ME1 inventory?  No, I didn't.  I'd like an inventory in which you can aquire upgrades for you weapons and armor, but nothing as large and messy as that in ME1.

As far as powers, more than just the point system changes -- your squad mates have almost a third less powers than in ME1.  I'd like to see them have maybe 5-6 powers to choose from in ME3, with Shepard having a few more.

[Frybread76]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

Night, try playing ME2 like this:

Get the Normandy > Recruit Zaeed > Recruit Mordin > Recruit Garrus > Recruit Kasumi > Recruit Jack > Recruit Grunt > Do Horizon > Recruit Tali > Recruit Samara > Recruit Thane > Do a LM > Do Another LM > Do Collector Ship > Finish Rest of LM's > Do Side-missions > Do Reaper IFF + Get Legion > Do Legion's LM > Do Suicide Mission > Do LOTSB

In short, make recruitment your number one priority. Then loyalty. Then sidequests. Then endgame and LOTSB.

In my own personal opinion, the game makes much more sense this way. Of course, the order in which you do loyalties and recruitments remains entirely arbitrary.

I always play like that.

This is how I play for the most part, as well.  Notice that only four of the missions are Collector- or main story-related: Horizon, Collector Ship, Reaper IFF and the Suicide Mission.  I really wish more of the missions were dealing with the Collectors/Reapers.

[Turin_4]

Oh wait, you were being sarcastic?  Give me a freaking break!  How
is pushing on a gun make it have pieces of FIRE come out of it, be very
effective against "shields" and biotic barriers, that anyone can do, as
opposed to an actual attachment to the gun that gives it a particular
weapon type?  That's way more believable.

Not everyone can do it.  Only characters with the appropriate specialities, at a pretty rare and expensive opportunity, can do it, smudboy.  So...yeah.

[smudboy]

Turin_4 wrote...

Oh wait, you were being sarcastic?  Give me a freaking break!  How
is pushing on a gun make it have pieces of FIRE come out of it, be very
effective against "shields" and biotic barriers, that anyone can do, as
opposed to an actual attachment to the gun that gives it a particular
weapon type?  That's way more believable.

Not everyone can do it.  Only characters with the appropriate specialities, at a pretty rare and expensive opportunity, can do it, smudboy.  So...yeah.

Nonsense. Someone with a skillset to push a button?  I think not.  That still implies every gun in the galaxy has that feature.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Nightwriter wrote...

Ah, okay. I just know there's a Legion comment in that mission - about the only squadmember comment you get - and I was wondering if you could squeeze it in after you recruit Legion.

Unfortunately, if you follow this method, you can't do Overlord after you get Legion, which means you won't hear that extra comment. If you do Overlord while following the method in order to hear the Legion comment, it will endanger the lives of the abducted crew.

In any case, you can leave Overlord until after you've finished the suicide mission if you wish. But I think Overlord is best done before the suicide mission anyway.

[Turin_4]

Nonsense. Someone with a skillset to push a button? I think not. That still implies every gun in the galaxy has that feature.

Oh, OK, so that's all it is. Pushing a button. I didn't realize, because all that is shown on the screen is pushing a button, that it must be as simple as that. When Moridin does his Neural Shock thing, he must just be pressing a button on his Omni Tool. When Tali hacks an AI, she must just be pressing a button. When Samara uses Reave, she must just be thinking hard. Etc. etc.

[Moiaussi]

Turin_4 wrote...

I didn't say I know better than anything you said.  I said I knew better than specific things you said, and provided examples and clear explanations of the things you said.  I didn't say only I know the codex, I said that between the two of us, one of us has been wrong more often when talking about the codex, and that's you (shields, frigate usage, communications), while the times you've accused me of being wrong you either leapt to conclusions or didn't read what I actually wrote.

Pot meet kettle. You keep listing those three, and even then you have only proven me wrong about shields. The other two you simply declared me wrong based on your own imaginings and refuse to believe you could be wrong instead (which interestingly is what you are accusing me of doing).

By the way, only the SB seemed to know about that bounty, and it was only for Shep's corpse. Liara was after SB a soon as she learned he was dealing with the collectors and therefore the reapers. You have not explained how if there was any open bounty such as you suggest, noone anywhere mentions it. Aria doesn't mention it. Mordin doesn't mention it. Garrus doesn't even joke about there being bounties on both of them (which there would be if you were right).

For that matter, the mercs on Omega simply sign him right up rather than lead him into a trap. The warden on the prison ship tries to capture Shepard to hold him for ransom, not for any bounty, and he is in the business of taking and holding prisoners.

[smudboy]

Turin_4 wrote...

Nonsense. Someone with a skillset to push a button? I think not. That still implies every gun in the galaxy has that feature.

Oh, OK, so that's all it is. Pushing a button. I didn't realize, because all that is shown on the screen is pushing a button, that it must be as simple as that. When Moridin does his Neural Shock thing, he must just be pressing a button on his Omni Tool. When Tali hacks an AI, she must just be pressing a button. When Samara uses Reave, she must just be thinking hard. Etc. etc.

Unless there's some backstory to show us what's happening, it's all we see.

It's much more believable to see a "thing" go into another "thing" to allow that to do something additional.  Fire does not come out of nowhere.  Electromagnetic fields do not come out of nowhere, etc.  Weapon mods are much more believable than someone pressing a button.

[Moiaussi]

Turin_4 wrote...

Nonsense. Someone with a skillset to push a button? I think not. That still implies every gun in the galaxy has that feature.

Oh, OK, so that's all it is. Pushing a button. I didn't realize, because all that is shown on the screen is pushing a button, that it must be as simple as that. When Moridin does his Neural Shock thing, he must just be pressing a button on his Omni Tool. When Tali hacks an AI, she must just be pressing a button. When Samara uses Reave, she must just be thinking hard. Etc. etc.

And what of those are 'ammo' powers? The question as I understood it was 'why is changing ammunintion suddenly a special power when anyone could do so in ME1?'

[Turin_4]

It's much more believable to see a "thing" go into another "thing" to allow that to do something additional. Fire does not come out of nowhere. Electromagnetic fields do not come out of nowhere, etc. Weapon mods are much more believable than someone pressing a button.

Now you're changing your criticisms.

[smudboy]

One thing I realized might be a way the dynamics of game play have changed due to the ME2's streamlining.  The whole game is a cover shooter.

Well, ME1 was a cover shooter, too.  But it wasn't just that.

The reason: ME2 has near instant health recovery, and got rid of armor mods.

In ME1, you had to keep track of who was hurt and heal them using medigel.  The Medic specialization even allowed medigel to revive fallen squadmates.  Then there was the Medicine spec. that allowed the cooldown of Medigel to go by faster, and the First-Aid spec. that improved the healing powers of Medigel. So what does this have to do with cover shooting?

In ME2, you just have to run to cover, wait a few seconds, and your health and shields are all recovered.  (In ME1, only your shields would eventually replenish at a somewhat comparable rate, unless you had some Medical Exoskeleton armor mods that slowly regenerated your health.)  Thus the entire strategy throughout is the same.  Pop up from cover, shoot/skill, recover.

In ME1, Medigel is treated like a health pack.  You have to ration it between your squad and plan out how to tackle the next set of foes.  That makes you play cautiously, to not take as many risks, and to keep better care of your squad should they be hurt.  Or, if they're more healthy than you, you put them at point.

ME2 throws this difference in altering ones strategy/approach to game play away, due to:
1. Instant Health/Shield recovery through cover
2. No armor mods (medical exoskeletons)
3. Medigel heals and revives fallen squadmates
4. Global upgrades to Medigel, as opposed to skills in cooldown of medigel/powers/cooldown/revival

I will note that strategies while playing as a Vanguard is a slightly different argument, though that still applies.  Playing less aggressively, or smarter, was done away with for a more streamlined, if not casual approach to TPS.

[smudboy]

Turin_4 wrote...

It's much more believable to see a "thing" go into another "thing" to allow that to do something additional. Fire does not come out of nowhere. Electromagnetic fields do not come out of nowhere, etc. Weapon mods are much more believable than someone pressing a button.

Now you're changing your criticisms.

Nope.  This is exactly what I stated before.

Weapon mods are believable.  They were part of the culture of the game.  Putting a thing A (weapon mod) into a thing B (the weapon) implies that thing B will do something new (firey bullets, electromagnetic bullets, etc.)  All of a sudden, mods are gone, and it's now a "skill", which somehow makes bullets be on fire, be electromagnetic, etc., without any explanation or cause as to why this is.

You're arguing it's more believable that a weapon skill is more believable.

[smudboy]

Moiaussi wrote...

Turin_4 wrote...

Nonsense. Someone with a skillset to push a button? I think not. That still implies every gun in the galaxy has that feature.

Oh, OK, so that's all it is. Pushing a button. I didn't realize, because all that is shown on the screen is pushing a button, that it must be as simple as that. When Moridin does his Neural Shock thing, he must just be pressing a button on his Omni Tool. When Tali hacks an AI, she must just be pressing a button. When Samara uses Reave, she must just be thinking hard. Etc. etc.

And what of those are 'ammo' powers? The question as I understood it was 'why is changing ammunintion suddenly a special power when anyone could do so in ME1?'

Essentially that.  It's like loading a weapon with an attachment, or a type of ammo.  If you have that attachment or ammo, voila, that's what the gun shoots.

In ME2, it's a skill.  I don't know what/how a skill makes bullets firey/electromagnetic/anti-biotic shield/anti-armor.  Something cannot come from nothing.

[Moiaussi]

Turin_4 wrote...

It's much more believable to see a "thing" go into another "thing" to allow that to do something additional. Fire does not come out of nowhere. Electromagnetic fields do not come out of nowhere, etc. Weapon mods are much more believable than someone pressing a button.

Now you're changing your criticisms.

No, you are responding to the criticism you want to respond to rather than the actual criticism. You were doing the same with me constantly, and even seemed to be convincing yourself with your own straw men.