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[Nightwriter]

Argh. Mah rose-colored glasses thread got locked!

Now I have to post in this one, which goes into long rambling discussions about inventory and petty gameplay mechanics and is stereotyped as an ME2 hater thread. Le sigh.

Oh well. Let's talk about if it's even possible to make a stand-alone game that fulfills the plot expectations of the game one fans.

[Babli]

Nightwriter wrote...
Oh well. Let's talk about if it's even possible to make a stand-alone game that fulfills the plot expectations of the game one fans.

No. Players want continuation of story. Period.

[Fiery Phoenix]

ME3 being as stand-alone as ME2 was would mean the Mass Effect trilogy has been refuted by itself.

[Nightwriter]

I'll be honest, I don't really know what they mean when they say "stand-alone". New players must already be confused by all the characters and references from ME1. Isn't that already breaking the stand-alone rule?

I take it to mean the plot of the game needs to be insular and self-contained. Which totally breaks the definition of what a trilogy is. So it's a trilogy, but each game's story must be separate? No wonder we're dissatisfied.

[Therion942]

Oh well. Let's talk about if it's even possible to make a stand-alone game that fulfills the plot expectations of the game one fans.

What? It's not even that frickin' hard. You can even use the base of the original mass effect 2, all it really lacks is proper cohesion. Yeah I know some people want them to rewrite the entire unplot, but hell the one we got works. Just add more exposition on what's going on, a couple lines of dialogue here and there explaining why we need a ground team to attack a fortress, a little back and forth between Miranda and Shepard about Shepard's newfound transhumanism and the Cerberus Brings-People-Back-To-Life-Machine®, make the crew realize that they're a crew and not 12 emo kids who sit in their respective corners of the ship waiting for daddy to come make them feel better.

Make the collectors a threat, every 2 or 3 pokemon missions after Hurrizon the collectors are there, hounding you, cut harbingers lines about ripping Shep apart and just keep the one's about capturing him  then, because wherever you go the collectors are sure to follow, the rest of the Galaxy is a bit wary of you.
At the end make Harbinger grow a brain and tell us that "We we merely getting a head start on our inevitable victory blah blah blah we are so ageless and superior."

I'm sure you get the picture, little things, fine details, that's what ME2 lacks - in my opinion. You can make what we got work but what we got needed a little bit more work, nahmean? The only thing I'd completely rewrite is the way you'd wake up just so it routes you immediately to Anderson if you make the choice but then you're contacted by a Cerberus informant because you went and executed Jacob and Miranda on the Lazarus station.

Modifié par Therion942, 16 octobre 2010 - 08:12 .

[Fiery Phoenix]

I'm just picturing someone walking into a game store trying to find something to play. They see this game called Mass Effect in the new arrivals section, with a big fat 3 on it. And they go all excited and buy it up.

I can't help but laugh. Seriously.

Modifié par FieryPhoenix7, 16 octobre 2010 - 08:15 .

[Nightwriter]

I have a biological inability to buy additional installments to games I have not purchased yet.

If I see "3", I must know where is 2. Where is 1. Where is 0. Where is 1.5. Where is 2.5. Where is 2 and three quarters. I cannot conceive of people buying an incomplete part of the story.

And Therion, my question is more, how can they insist for each game's plot to be insular and still call it a trilogy?

And how could you suggest executing Miranda? Surely you know how much better it would be to escape her clutches? Do you comprehend the fury she would feel? The anger? Miss perfect project lead lets old jarhead Shepard slip through her clutches? The game would essentially start with you defying Cerberus. I can just picture her when she has to deliver the news to TIM...

[Fraevar]

Nightwriter wrote...

And how could you suggest executing Miranda? Surely you know how much better it would be to escape her clutches? Do you comprehend the fury she would feel? The anger? Miss perfect project lead lets old jarhead Shepard slip through her clutches? The game would essentially start with you defying Cerberus. I can just picture her when she has to deliver the news to TIM...

See now that would've made for an awesome first act, Shepard escapes the station and we have Miranda leading a shadow team to get her back. It would also have made the bit about working with Cerberus much more conflicting, as there would probably be scenes involved that really shows off the "results by whatever means" side of Miranda as we go along.

[Nightwriter]

I have said before that that is exactly the way I wanted the game to begin. Though I do have kind of ulterior motives, I'm a Mirimancer and this would just make the romance ten times better.

Personally, I always felt like the whole order of events was screwed up in the opening. Most irksome. And confusing.

[Therion942]

Nightwriter wrote...

I have a biological inability to buy additional installments to games I have not purchased yet.

If I see "3", I must know where is 2. Where is 1. Where is 0. Where is 1.5. Where is 2.5. Where is 2 and three quarters. I cannot conceive of people buying an incomplete part of the story.

And Therion, my question is more, how can they insist for each game's plot to be insular and still call it a trilogy?

And how could you suggest executing Miranda? Surely you know how much better it would be to escape her clutches? Do you comprehend the fury she would feel? The anger? Miss perfect project lead lets old jarhead Shepard slip through her clutches? The game would essentially start with you defying Cerberus. I can just picture her when she has to deliver the news to TIM...

I never play Shepard as the planning type, his doctrine is get in and try to get out before the building explodes.

And you can have the game's plot be insular and resolved in comparison to the entire trilogy's plot, it's why double-plots exist, have Salarian STG/Commandos contact us on the citadel and let us know what's really up with the council, remove the ridiculous binary asplod/keep  the base choice and instead reintegrate LoTSB back in to the game and make the choice Give Base to Liara/Give base to Illusive Man. You resolve the game's plot by stopping the collectors, the story's primary plot advances but remains unresolved in that you are gathering allies, technology and information to combat the primary opposing force. Of course now I'm reaching beyond "What we got works but what we got needed more work" territory.

But we didn't get any of that, and unless ME2 is 4 discs long, I just don't see how it  is going to be anything other than Dragon Age in space. Now, I didn't hate Dragon Age, but I'd rather not play the same game reskinned

[TMA LIVE]

Nightwriter wrote...

And how could you suggest executing Miranda? Surely you know how much better it would be to escape her clutches? Do you comprehend the fury she would feel? The anger? Miss perfect project lead lets old jarhead Shepard slip through her clutches? The game would essentially start with you defying Cerberus. I can just picture her when she has to deliver the news to TIM...

I actually wish ME2 began with, after Cerberus forces you to go to Freedom's Progress, Shepard says he plans on doing something about it, but still doesn't trust Cerberus to work for them. Instead he leaves, and heads for the Council. On the way, Miranda is trying to talk him out of this, and that working for Cerberus is the better way. Shepard, however, ignores her, and heads for the Council and asks for help. But instead of getting help, he is rejected. After leaving the meeting, Miranda ask what he plans to do now? Because if he wants to save those colonies, and find out why the Reapers are doing this, then he has to put his grudges aside, because they are the only ones that will allow him to do something.

[Nightwriter]

TMA LIVE wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

And how could you suggest executing Miranda? Surely you know how much better it would be to escape her clutches? Do you comprehend the fury she would feel? The anger? Miss perfect project lead lets old jarhead Shepard slip through her clutches? The game would essentially start with you defying Cerberus. I can just picture her when she has to deliver the news to TIM...

I actually wish ME2 began with, after Cerberus forces you to go to Freedom's Progress, Shepard says he plans on doing something about it, but still doesn't trust Cerberus to work for them. Instead he leaves, and heads for the Council. On the way, Miranda is trying to talk him out of this, and that working for Cerberus is the better way. Shepard, however, ignores her, and heads for the Council and asks for help. But instead of getting help, he is rejected. After leaving the meeting, Miranda ask what he plans to do now? Because if he wants to save those colonies, and find out why the Reapers are doing this, then he has to put his grudges aside, because they are the only ones that will allow him to do something.

This is indeed the way it should be set up, in that the Council needs to reject you before you agree to go with Cerberus.

However, I think  I would somehow change Freedom's Progress. The first thing I think one should do is get the player powerfully motivated to stop the Collectors. I think Freedom's Progress kind of failed at this.

I admit, in reality my Shepard would not have been overwhelmingly motivated by Freedom's Progress. Only puzzled and troubled. It certainly was not enough to get my Shepard to agree working with Cerberus. Shepard acts like the Collectors lit a fire under his seat, but I didn't see or feel any fire. I would like some fire.

Eden Prime? That was a fire. It was a slap in the face. Sudden, violent, motivational. ME2 needed an Eden Prime.

[TMA LIVE]

Nightwriter wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

And how could you suggest executing Miranda? Surely you know how much better it would be to escape her clutches? Do you comprehend the fury she would feel? The anger? Miss perfect project lead lets old jarhead Shepard slip through her clutches? The game would essentially start with you defying Cerberus. I can just picture her when she has to deliver the news to TIM...

I actually wish ME2 began with, after Cerberus forces you to go to Freedom's Progress, Shepard says he plans on doing something about it, but still doesn't trust Cerberus to work for them. Instead he leaves, and heads for the Council. On the way, Miranda is trying to talk him out of this, and that working for Cerberus is the better way. Shepard, however, ignores her, and heads for the Council and asks for help. But instead of getting help, he is rejected. After leaving the meeting, Miranda ask what he plans to do now? Because if he wants to save those colonies, and find out why the Reapers are doing this, then he has to put his grudges aside, because they are the only ones that will allow him to do something.

This is indeed the way it should be set up, in that the Council needs to reject you before you agree to go with Cerberus.

However, I think  I would somehow change Freedom's Progress. The first thing I think one should do is get the player powerfully motivated to stop the Collectors. I think Freedom's Progress kind of failed at this.

I admit, in reality my Shepard would not have been overwhelmingly motivated by Freedom's Progress. Only puzzled and troubled. It certainly was not enough to get my Shepard to agree working with Cerberus. Shepard acts like the Collectors lit a fire under his seat, but I didn't see or feel any fire. I would like some fire.

Eden Prime? That was a fire. It was a slap in the face. Sudden, violent, motivational. ME2 needed an Eden Prime.

Well, it was done to setup a mystery. You wanted to know what the heck was happening, and who were the Collectors. But like you said, that's not enough to make you think "Wow. Cerberus is the only one doing something about this. I must join them." Hell, if you Renegade with Tali, Shepard right off the bat thinks the Council is doing nothing about this, and he had to join Cerberus for the sake of humanity. Yet, all he has is TIM's and Jacob's word on this. He has yet to even talk to anyone outside Cerberus. Which I thought was lacking from the game. Heck, after the Council rejects you, THEN TIM should have given you the Normandy 2.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 16 octobre 2010 - 09:49 .

[Nightwriter]

Wasn't it you who said that Shepard should have gone back to the Council and gotten offered a desk job?

This is the kind of thing I would have liked to see. And while I know they were trying to set up a mystery, I think the mystery should have been saved for the second or third colony we visit, not the first. The colony abductions were not portrayed terribly well.

[TMA LIVE]

Nightwriter wrote...

Wasn't it you who said that Shepard should have gone back to the Council and gotten offered a desk job?

This is the kind of thing I would have liked to see. And while I know they were trying to set up a mystery, I think the mystery should have been saved for the second or third colony we visit, not the first. The colony abductions were not portrayed terribly well.

Yeah, I thought of the idea. I also thought of how it should be done.

I wanted them to offer you the desk join, and the goody too shoes players will hit it as the paragon option. They then take you to a room, where you do nothing but hit a button. You hit a button, and a package drops down and gets delivered somewhere. And you can continue to do that forever, till you walk out and quit (because you can't leave unless you quit. Your shift's not finished.), and join Cerberus, because they are the only ones that will give you a ship and crew.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 16 octobre 2010 - 10:16 .

[Nightwriter]

... I actually think that would be kind of pointless. The game's basically saying, "Join Cerberus or don't play."

I think it would be better to illustrate that even paragon Shepard cannot and will not accept a role of inaction - Shepard will never be able to sit in a desk job. For a character that needs some more characterization, this kind of thing is good to add.

[TMA LIVE]

Nightwriter wrote...

... I actually think that would be kind of pointless. The game's basically saying, "Join Cerberus or don't play."

But isn't that already the case? 

[Nightwriter]

Lol, yeah, it is, but instead of saying that, they can send a meaningful message by showing us that Shepard can't accept a desk job. This would be probably the one moment where we don't get to choose Shepard's character, we just watch it. We watch Shepard become faced with the realization s/he cannot sit by and do nothing. We experience that realization with Shepard.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 16 octobre 2010 - 11:12 .

[OverlordNexas]

 One of my major disappointments with ME2 and LotSB specially is the way they have treated the character of the Shadow Broker. In ME1 the SB was a neutral figure who traded with everyone, but tried not to tip the scales of galactic stability. Hell, he was downright helpful in ME1 even if it was generally unintentional. But ME2 goes out of its way to demonize him at every turn. He was working with the Collectors. He helped kill Thanes wife. He was planning to kill Tali. Sure I knew he wasn't a saint, but Bioware really went out their way to try to make me hate a character that I liked.

And then there's the fact that he was so easy to find. He's the most powerful information broker in the galaxy. People like Vido and Balak are impossible to track, but we can find the ****ing Shadow Broker!?! I was expecting to walk into his office and find a hologram saying "I knew you were coming Shepard, and I already evacuated days ago. This base will self-destruct in 5 minutes".  

And finally I hate how I'm given no choice, but to kill him. There's no betray Liara option. Hell there's not even a simple spare him option.

[TMA LIVE]

OverlordNexas wrote...

 One of my major disappointments with ME2 and LotSB specially is the way they have treated the character of the Shadow Broker. In ME1 the SB was a neutral figure who traded with everyone, but tried not to tip the scales of galactic stability. Hell, he was downright helpful in ME1 even if it was generally unintentional. But ME2 goes out of its way to demonize him at every turn. He was working with the Collectors. He helped kill Thanes wife. He was planning to kill Tali. Sure I knew he wasn't a saint, but Bioware really went out their way to try to make me hate a character that I liked.

And then there's the fact that he was so easy to find. He's the most powerful information broker in the galaxy. People like Vido and Balak are impossible to track, but we can find the ****ing Shadow Broker!?! I was expecting to walk into his office and find a hologram saying "I knew you were coming Shepard, and I already evacuated days ago. This base will self-destruct in 5 minutes".  

And finally I hate how I'm given no choice, but to kill him. There's no betray Liara option. Hell there's not even a simple spare him option.

Why would you betray Liara? She's give you anything (well, except a squadmate position...).

Anyways, I feel they had to demonize him a bit, because they needed to justify Liara trying to kill him, since they messed that up big time. 

[OverlordNexas]

TMA LIVE wrote...

OverlordNexas wrote...

 One of my major disappointments with ME2 and LotSB specially is the way they have treated the character of the Shadow Broker. In ME1 the SB was a neutral figure who traded with everyone, but tried not to tip the scales of galactic stability. Hell, he was downright helpful in ME1 even if it was generally unintentional. But ME2 goes out of its way to demonize him at every turn. He was working with the Collectors. He helped kill Thanes wife. He was planning to kill Tali. Sure I knew he wasn't a saint, but Bioware really went out their way to try to make me hate a character that I liked.

And then there's the fact that he was so easy to find. He's the most powerful information broker in the galaxy. People like Vido and Balak are impossible to track, but we can find the ****ing Shadow Broker!?! I was expecting to walk into his office and find a hologram saying "I knew you were coming Shepard, and I already evacuated days ago. This base will self-destruct in 5 minutes".  

And finally I hate how I'm given no choice, but to kill him. There's no betray Liara option. Hell there's not even a simple spare him option.

Why would you betray Liara? She's give you anything (well, except a squadmate position...).

Anyways, I feel they had to demonize him a bit, because they needed to justify Liara trying to kill him, since they messed that up big time. 

Why wouldn't I? Shepard can be quite the bastard sometimes? Just ask Samara 

And I'm not saying betraying her would be the only option. You could have been given a choice to spare him after the fight and have him work for you. And I would have taken that option to as I don't think Liara is anywhere near qualified to be the Shadow Broker.

[Moiaussi]

OverlordNexas wrote...

Why wouldn't I? Shepard can be quite the bastard sometimes? Just ask Samara 

And I'm not saying betraying her would be the only option. You could have been given a choice to spare him after the fight and have him work for you. And I would have taken that option to as I don't think Liara is anywhere near qualified to be the Shadow Broker.

How about 'because SB wants to sell you to the collectors and has no reason to trust you alive?' At best you are an untrustworthy loose cannon (which is reinforced if you suddenly inexplicably betray Liara).

And precisely what is the advantage to you in having the Yahg in that position instead of Liara?

[Moiaussi]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

I'm just picturing someone walking into a game store trying to find something to play. They see this game called Mass Effect in the new arrivals section, with a big fat 3 on it. And they go all excited and buy it up.

I can't help but laugh. Seriously.

Pretty much every sequal, especially the good ones, has a recap at the start. The good ones manage that and continuity yet also manage a coherrent self contained story.

ME2 could just as easily have reminded everyone that reapers were on the way and kept a sense of urgency preparing for them. The reapers not showing up yet at the end would just have left people hungry for the next installment, and the opening could have sold copies of ME1.

How did Empire Strikes Back manage to survive in the box office as the middle of a trilogy? Just fine....

[Nightwriter]

There was no betray Liara option. There should be no betray Liara option.

[OverlordNexas]

Moiaussi wrote...

OverlordNexas wrote...

Why wouldn't I? Shepard can be quite the bastard sometimes? Just ask Samara 

And I'm not saying betraying her would be the only option. You could have been given a choice to spare him after the fight and have him work for you. And I would have taken that option to as I don't think Liara is anywhere near qualified to be the Shadow Broker.

How about 'because SB wants to sell you to the collectors and has no reason to trust you alive?' At best you are an untrustworthy loose cannon (which is reinforced if you suddenly inexplicably betray Liara).

And precisely what is the advantage to you in having the Yahg in that position instead of Liara?

He wanted sell my corpse which I really can't blame him for sense I was dead. And I can easily justify killing Liara for wanting to throw galactic stability to the wind for revenge.

And I've been given no evidence that Liara is anywhere near good enough of an information broker to qualify her for such a role. The idea that she went from an archeologist to becoming the ****ing Shadow Broker in just two  years simply destroys my suspension of disbelieve.