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[Terror_K]

Nightwriter wrote...

With characters like Jack or Thane or Samara, it's a problem that they don't have connections to the Collectors, because you're constantly wondering why they choose to be here.

Actually Samara does.

[Nightwriter]

Not particularly.

[Moiaussi]

Nightwriter wrote...

Not particularly.

We don't know why, but given her Justicar code to punish the wicked and protect the innocent, her deeming the Collectors appropriate adversaries suggests strongly that she has reason to consider them 'in the wrong.'

In other words, the connection is there by inference. It doesn't have to be overtly stated or explained to work.

Jack has some reason to be there by way of your rescuing her, Cerberus ship or not. She does actually suggest forsking the mission and going pirate (or taking over the ship herself to do so), but (like Samara, actually) she has 'been there, done that' and is mostly posturing and/or testing Shepard.

Thane is there because Shepard has a good reputation (even as a renegade Shepard was still the hero of the 'citadel war'), because colonies are being wiped out, and he is looking to for 'redeeming contracts' in his final years.

Given Jack's personality 'sure, why not' is actually believable. Thane hasn't got a lot to lose. Samara is the only one with a 'higher code.' She is also a matriarch though, so may have some latent precog ability telling her it is legitimate and/or 'just.'

Modifié par Moiaussi, 17 octobre 2010 - 08:09 .

[Nightwriter]

I feel rather like we're going out of our way to come up with these reasons.

My point is that it's not enough. It all feels so... random. Samara roots out injustice, and you swung by and she shrugged and said "might as well do this". If someone else had passed by two minutes earlier and said they needed her help ferreting out a group of terrorists she'd be doing that instead.

Jack... I won't even go there. There is so totally no reason she'd care about the Collectors, and she wouldn't stay for the data, either - she'd cut and run as soon as she got it.

Thane is exactly like Samara. He needed a cause and you just happened to show up.

[Terror_K]

Except that Samara had direct dealings with The Collectors in the past. They were the reason she gave up being a merc and initially decided to settle down. In that sense she's got more of a reason than most to fight against them.

[Frybread76]

Terror_K wrote...

Except that Samara had direct dealings with The Collectors in the past. They were the reason she gave up being a merc and initially decided to settle down. In that sense she's got more of a reason than most to fight against them.

I can see your point, but it's still a stretch and hard for me to swallow.

Jack, I just don't see why she would stick around and risk her life in a mission she apparently doesn't give a crap about (until you romance her or do her loyalty mission).

[Moiaussi]

Nightwriter wrote...

I feel rather like we're going out of our way to come up with these reasons.

My point is that it's not enough. It all feels so... random. Samara roots out injustice, and you swung by and she shrugged and said "might as well do this". If someone else had passed by two minutes earlier and said they needed her help ferreting out a group of terrorists she'd be doing that instead.

Jack... I won't even go there. There is so totally no reason she'd care about the Collectors, and she wouldn't stay for the data, either - she'd cut and run as soon as she got it.

Thane is exactly like Samara. He needed a cause and you just happened to show up.

You are forgetting something else. TIM presumably keeps dossiers on every talented individual he can. These would have been chosen not just for skill but also for likeliness to join. You didn't 'just happen to show up' for any of them. There are other powerful biotics out there... the bartender on Illium likely is one.. but she is content tending bar.

There are undoubtedly other assassins out there. Thane is dying and looking for a 'good' cause.

Jack is more of a wild card, but she isn't completely irrational either. To me it feels more like character growth, the realization that she just spent years in a stasis pod on a prison ship and might be either willing to accept other ideas on life now, or alternatively, has just given up on life and/or rebelling. Her whole first conversation with Shepard on the Normandy seemed to go in terms of either Shepard patiently letting her anger wash over him, or matching it with the fact that he is as tough or tougher than she is, and either way that she is accepted for what and who she is. If you do her loyalty mission, she is able to learn a lot about her past (including the fact that the installation was appearantly rogue and conceiling information from TIM), and to blow it up, getting at least some level of closure.

As for the making us come up with the answers complaint ,those explainations come  easily to me, so for me, it works.

Individual milage may vary.....

[Frybread76]

Moiaussi wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

I feel rather like we're going out of our way to come up with these reasons.

My point is that it's not enough. It all feels so... random. Samara roots out injustice, and you swung by and she shrugged and said "might as well do this". If someone else had passed by two minutes earlier and said they needed her help ferreting out a group of terrorists she'd be doing that instead.

Jack... I won't even go there. There is so totally no reason she'd care about the Collectors, and she wouldn't stay for the data, either - she'd cut and run as soon as she got it.

Thane is exactly like Samara. He needed a cause and you just happened to show up.

You are forgetting something else. TIM presumably keeps dossiers on every talented individual he can. These would have been chosen not just for skill but also for likeliness to join. You didn't 'just happen to show up' for any of them. There are other powerful biotics out there... the bartender on Illium likely is one.. but she is content tending bar.

There are undoubtedly other assassins out there. Thane is dying and looking for a 'good' cause.

Jack is more of a wild card, but she isn't completely irrational either. To me it feels more like character growth, the realization that she just spent years in a stasis pod on a prison ship and might be either willing to accept other ideas on life now, or alternatively, has just given up on life and/or rebelling. Her whole first conversation with Shepard on the Normandy seemed to go in terms of either Shepard patiently letting her anger wash over him, or matching it with the fact that he is as tough or tougher than she is, and either way that she is accepted for what and who she is. If you do her loyalty mission, she is able to learn a lot about her past (including the fact that the installation was appearantly rogue and conceiling information from TIM), and to blow it up, getting at least some level of closure.

As for the making us come up with the answers complaint ,those explainations come  easily to me, so for me, it works.

Individual milage may vary.....

Good points, and I like your reasoning for why Jack might stay put on the Normandy.  However, I still don't see TIM thinking that recruiting a psychopath who hates Cerberus and is in cryostasis because she is so dangerous would be easier than finding another powerful human or asari biotic throughout the universe ( or even within Cerberus itself).

[Moiaussi]

Frybread76 wrote...

Good points, and I like your reasoning for why Jack might stay put on the Normandy.  However, I still don't see TIM thinking that recruiting a psychopath who hates Cerberus and is in cryostasis because she is so dangerous would be easier than finding another powerful human or asari biotic throughout the universe ( or even within Cerberus itself).

That could be vanity.... she was a Cerberus project from the beginning. TIM also knows though a lot about her personality because of that.

It is more questionable that Jack doesn't rebel again after TIM betrays everyone by not letting them know that the  Collector ship is a trap, and Shepard inexplicably backs TIM.... but that whole bit was problematic on a lot more levels than just Jack.

[Frybread76]

Moiaussi wrote...

Frybread76 wrote...

Good points, and I like your reasoning for why Jack might stay put on the Normandy.  However, I still don't see TIM thinking that recruiting a psychopath who hates Cerberus and is in cryostasis because she is so dangerous would be easier than finding another powerful human or asari biotic throughout the universe ( or even within Cerberus itself).

That could be vanity.... she was a Cerberus project from the beginning. TIM also knows though a lot about her personality because of that.

It is more questionable that Jack doesn't rebel again after TIM betrays everyone by not letting them know that the  Collector ship is a trap, and Shepard inexplicably backs TIM.... but that whole bit was problematic on a lot more levels than just Jack.

TIM might know her personality and abilities, but he apparently doesn't let Shepard know anything beyond her being the most powerful human biotic alive.  Our hero is left ignorant to deal with someone who could get made and explode and kill half the crew before she is subdued or killed.

Even though I can appreciate Jack as a character, maybe I would have been happier if she was not in the game and Miranda was made powerful enough to do the Biotic Bubble, since she is genetically engineered to be a powerful human biotic.

[Moiaussi]

Frybread76 wrote...

TIM might know her personality and abilities, but he apparently doesn't let Shepard know anything beyond her being the most powerful human biotic alive.  Our hero is left ignorant to deal with someone who could get made and explode and kill half the crew before she is subdued or killed.

Even though I can appreciate Jack as a character, maybe I would have been happier if she was not in the game and Miranda was made powerful enough to do the Biotic Bubble, since she is genetically engineered to be a powerful human biotic.

We are talking about a hero who can hold his own, diplomaticly, against the Krogan (including on the Krogan homeworld).....

[Frybread76]

Moiaussi wrote...

Frybread76 wrote...

TIM might know her personality and abilities, but he apparently doesn't let Shepard know anything beyond her being the most powerful human biotic alive.  Our hero is left ignorant to deal with someone who could get made and explode and kill half the crew before she is subdued or killed.

Even though I can appreciate Jack as a character, maybe I would have been happier if she was not in the game and Miranda was made powerful enough to do the Biotic Bubble, since she is genetically engineered to be a powerful human biotic.

We are talking about a hero who can hold his own, diplomaticly, against the Krogan (including on the Krogan homeworld).....

True, but Shepard's not a therapist and even a bad ass of his status can be caught off guard or blindsided.  Especially if you are like my Paragon Shepard who just ignored Jack and left her down in Engineering.

[Moiaussi]

Frybread76 wrote...

True, but Shepard's not a therapist and even a bad ass of his status can be caught off guard or blindsided.  Especially if you are like my Paragon Shepard who just ignored Jack and left her down in Engineering.

But Kelly is. As for simply abandoning the squaddies, that is an issue that does bug me. It shouldn't be so easy to get their loyalty with that, or even keep some of them on board.

Modifié par Moiaussi, 17 octobre 2010 - 03:26 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

iakus wrote...

If Thane's wife had disappeared, rather than been killed.  Thane's mission could have been learning that his enemies kidnapped her and sold her to the Collectors.

That would actually be a good one. Imagine if it's the Collectors that murdered Irikah instead of those shameless batarians...

Like I said, WASTED OPPORTUNITY!

It really starts to feel contrived and forced if these people all just happen to have backstories that tie into the Collectors, though, doesn't it? 

You'd have to write the whole thing  very carefully, to avoid coincidence pile-up.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Nightwriter wrote...

I feel rather like we're going out of our way to come up with these reasons.

My point is that it's not enough. It all feels so... random. Samara roots out injustice, and you swung by and she shrugged and said "might as well do this". If someone else had passed by two minutes earlier and said they needed her help ferreting out a group of terrorists she'd be doing that instead.

Jack... I won't even go there. There is so totally no reason she'd care about the Collectors, and she wouldn't stay for the data, either - she'd cut and run as soon as she got it.

Thane is exactly like Samara. He needed a cause and you just happened to show up.

Is it possible to advance the game if you don't recruit Jack? 

Also, I'm not sure how Thane or Samara "just happened to show up".

[Iakus]

Nightwriter wrote...

I'd say Zaeed, Kasumi, Garrus and Tali don't really need a connection.

Thane, Samara, Jack, and Grunt should've all had one.

Thane and Grunt, see earlier post.

Jack:  Purgatory warden was going to sell biotic prisoners to the Collectors, including Jack.  Shepard learns of this during escape from trap.   Interrupts handoff.  Jack escapes during the ensuing gunfight.  Afterwards, is willing to put aside hatred fro Cerberus (temporarilly) for a chance to rip apart some of those ::expletives::  Afterwards, TIM hints that he knew about the deal, and that this would help ensure Jack stayed focused on teh COllectors rather than Cerberus.

Samara:  It is learned that Morinth has had several dealings with the Collectors, and may in fact have used Collector tech to augment her biotic capabilities.  This would make them party to her centuries-long killing spree.

[Iakus]

[quote]Moiaussi wrote...
We don't know why, but given her Justicar code to punish the wicked and protect the innocent, her deeming the Collectors appropriate adversaries suggests strongly that she has reason to consider them 'in the wrong.'

In other words, the connection is there by inference. It doesn't have to be overtly stated or explained to work.[/quote]

Actually, Shepard does comment at one point about her lack of curiosity about the Collectors or why they are fighting them.  Her response is that she doesn't have to know why, only that Shepard says they need killing. Not a very satisfactory answer.

[quote]
Jack has some reason to be there by way of your rescuing her, Cerberus ship or not. She does actually suggest forsking the mission and going pirate (or taking over the ship herself to do so), but (like Samara, actually) she has 'been there, done that' and is mostly posturing and/or testing Shepard.[/quote]

Jack is so violent and unpredictible that I think literally any reaction from her was possible.  Still, even if she behaved, it's either a miracle or an oversight that no crew members (including Miranda) ended up in sickbay. Or the morgue.

[quote]
Thane is there because Shepard has a good reputation (even as a renegade Shepard was still the hero of the 'citadel war'), because colonies are being wiped out, and he is looking to for 'redeeming contracts' in his final years.[/quote]

Even hif he didn't start with a specific reason to take the mission, I would have liked it if he had developed one over time.  Even a conversation:

"Shepard.  I have been going over old records of Collector activities.  What there are of them.  I felt I needed to know my enemy better.  I have heard stories of the Collectors.  Most people do in the Terminus Systems.  But these files...  My gods, Shepard.  The stories don't even come close to the truth!  If true evil really exists, these are the embodiment of it!  I am glad I took this job, Shepard.  Here my skills at killing may truly help the galaxy"
[/quote]

[Iakus]

Moiaussi wrote...

You are forgetting something else. TIM presumably keeps dossiers on every talented individual he can. These would have been chosen not just for skill but also for likeliness to join. You didn't 'just happen to show up' for any of them. There are other powerful biotics out there... the bartender on Illium likely is one.. but she is content tending bar.

There are undoubtedly other assassins out there. Thane is dying and looking for a 'good' cause.

Jack is more of a wild card, but she isn't completely irrational either. To me it feels more like character growth, the realization that she just spent years in a stasis pod on a prison ship and might be either willing to accept other ideas on life now, or alternatively, has just given up on life and/or rebelling. Her whole first conversation with Shepard on the Normandy seemed to go in terms of either Shepard patiently letting her anger wash over him, or matching it with the fact that he is as tough or tougher than she is, and either way that she is accepted for what and who she is. If you do her loyalty mission, she is able to learn a lot about her past (including the fact that the installation was appearantly rogue and conceiling information from TIM), and to blow it up, getting at least some level of closure.

As for the making us come up with the answers complaint ,those explainations come  easily to me, so for me, it works.

Individual milage may vary.....

Perhaps he does keep tabs on stuff like that.  But none of it appears in the dossiers we're given.  I'd have thought they'd at least be included as a talking point for Shepard 

"Thane is dying, though physically remains in top condition.  He is currently only taking jobs he considers to be for the benefit of the galaxy as some sort of atonement.  Do not be afraid to mention how dangerous this mission is"

"Samara is a justicar, an asari holy warrior who seeks to protect the innocent and punish the wicked.  It would be best to play up the fact that thousands of innocents are being abducted"

"Jack and Cerberus have a history with each other which is less than amicable.  Avoid leaving her alone with any Cerberus personell"

[Iakus]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

It really starts to feel contrived and forced if these people all just happen to have backstories that tie into the Collectors, though, doesn't it? 

You'd have to write the whole thing  very carefully, to avoid coincidence pile-up.

Not if you keep it from being a coincidence.

After all, who's providing Shepard with these dossiers?  

Who might dangle clues in front of these people to encourage them to focus on the Collectors rather than the human-centric, quasi-terrorist organization that's running the show here?

I submit that connections could have existed and that it could have been part of TIM's criteria for putting this group together.   

[Moiaussi]

iakus wrote...

Actually, Shepard does comment at one point about her lack of curiosity about the Collectors or why they are fighting them.  Her response is that she doesn't have to know why, only that Shepard says they need killing. Not a very satisfactory answer.

Unless she has 'biotic intuition' the same way the consort does. She could simple 'know' without actually knowing consciously why. Precident exists in ME.

Jack is so violent and unpredictible that I think literally any reaction from her was possible.  Still, even if she behaved, it's either a miracle or an oversight that no crew members (including Miranda) ended up in sickbay. Or the morgue.

Jack presents herself as violent and unpredictable, but there is as much or more talk there as action. In the detail we learn more, such as the fact that she thought she broke out alone, but there was actually a lot more going on.
She talks as if she is psychotic all the time, but even when confronting Miranda, she argued rather than Shepard finding them literally at each other's throats.

She isn't random. A bit lost yes. Looking for answers, definately. Posturing? Constantly. Unpredictably violent? Not so much.

Even hif he didn't start with a specific reason to take the mission, I would have liked it if he had developed one over time.  Even a conversation:

"Shepard.  I have been going over old records of Collector activities.  What there are of them.  I felt I needed to know my enemy better.  I have heard stories of the Collectors.  Most people do in the Terminus Systems.  But these files...  My gods, Shepard.  The stories don't even come close to the truth!  If true evil really exists, these are the embodiment of it!  I am glad I took this job, Shepard.  Here my skills at killing may truly help the galaxy"

Heh, hope you are exaggerating.... those lines are so corny they'd only attract crows... and if such files existed, why would Shepard have to have 'discovered' the Collectors were behind it all? Horizon would have been completely unneccessary and Shepard should have been worrying about the Collectors back in ME1

[Moiaussi]

iakus wrote...

Perhaps he does keep tabs on stuff like that.  But none of it appears in the dossiers we're given.  I'd have thought they'd at least be included as a talking point for Shepard 

"Thane is dying, though physically remains in top condition.  He is currently only taking jobs he considers to be for the benefit of the galaxy as some sort of atonement.  Do not be afraid to mention how dangerous this mission is"

"Samara is a justicar, an asari holy warrior who seeks to protect the innocent and punish the wicked.  It would be best to play up the fact that thousands of innocents are being abducted"

"Jack and Cerberus have a history with each other which is less than amicable.  Avoid leaving her alone with any Cerberus personell"

There is so much TIM leaves out that it is more a need to not know basis than need to know. I suspect that if TIM could have gotten away with it, Shepard wouldn't have even known his (i.e. shepard's) own name.....

[Nightwriter]

iakus wrote...

Thane and Grunt, see earlier post.

Jack:  Purgatory warden was going to sell biotic prisoners to the Collectors, including Jack.  Shepard learns of this during escape from trap.   Interrupts handoff.  Jack escapes during the ensuing gunfight.  Afterwards, is willing to put aside hatred fro Cerberus (temporarilly) for a chance to rip apart some of those ::expletives::  Afterwards, TIM hints that he knew about the deal, and that this would help ensure Jack stayed focused on teh COllectors rather than Cerberus.

Samara:  It is learned that Morinth has had several dealings with the Collectors, and may in fact have used Collector tech to augment her biotic capabilities.  This would make them party to her centuries-long killing spree.

Once upon a time I actually suggested that the Teltin scientists could've used Collector technology to make Jack's amp. And it's the only one of its kind. She's the only one who can break through Collector barriers. But she's dying. The amp's killing her (it already sort of is in the game). She has to get to the Collector base and find a cure.

But you see, I like yours better because it gets her angry, and every time Jack swears I just get so tickled.

Samara! Dude, why can't one of her daughters have gotten captured by the Collectors or something? They'd want to study ardat-yakshi. It's a rare genetic anomaly. Or better yet, create another Benezia figure! Only this one's a justicar. A justicar, working for the Collectors! SAMARA MUST STOP HER.

[Terror_K]

With regards to Jack, it's likely that knowing that she's an unstable biotic killing machine that hates Cerberus that TIM wanted to kind of literally kill two birds with one stone here. She's an extremely powerful biotic (in cutscenes) who has the ability to provide some strong support for the mission due to her talents, and on top of it all this is supposedly a suicide mission. TIM probably doesn't want her to come back.

[M33T SH33LD]

My disappointment with Mass Effect 2 was the half-assed plot, complete change of music style, and the absolute crap end boss fight.  Whoever thought up TermiReaper 2000 needs to quit writing.

I'm really liking the additions to the opening of the game some of you have proposed.  They definitely make more sense than Bioware's version.

I almost feel like we should create our own version of Mass Effect 2's story.  Maybe Bioware will try harder with ME3 if they realize that their fans can write a better ME2 story than their pathetic drivel.