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[smudboy]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

iakus wrote...

If Thane's wife had disappeared, rather than been killed.  Thane's mission could have been learning that his enemies kidnapped her and sold her to the Collectors.

That would actually be a good one. Imagine if it's the Collectors that murdered Irikah instead of those shameless batarians...

Like I said, WASTED OPPORTUNITY!

It really starts to feel contrived and forced if these people all just happen to have backstories that tie into the Collectors, though, doesn't it? 

You'd have to write the whole thing  very carefully, to avoid coincidence pile-up.

Good writers do indeed write carefully.

[S-A128]

I agree with you 100% that would be an awesome loyalty mission:)

Modifié par S-A128, 18 octobre 2010 - 01:04 .

[Moiaussi]

Nightwriter wrote...

Once upon a time I actually suggested that the Teltin scientists could've used Collector technology to make Jack's amp. And it's the only one of its kind. She's the only one who can break through Collector barriers. But she's dying. The amp's killing her (it already sort of is in the game). She has to get to the Collector base and find a cure.

But you see, I like yours better because it gets her angry, and every time Jack swears I just get so tickled.

Samara! Dude, why can't one of her daughters have gotten captured by the Collectors or something? They'd want to study ardat-yakshi. It's a rare genetic anomaly. Or better yet, create another Benezia figure! Only this one's a justicar. A justicar, working for the Collectors! SAMARA MUST STOP HER.

Right, because a Justicar, sworn to a code of Asari justice, wouldn't be interested in stopping a group involved in kidnappings and/or 'collecting' people who have suddenly moved on up to abducting whole colonies unless there was some conflict of interest ( a daughter) involved....

If she learned collector tech made her amp (which seems exceedingly unlikely unless Cerberus brought down collector vessels before), Jack would obviously blame the collectors rather than the organization that actually implanted the amp and tortured her through her entire childhood.....and what does she know about amp tech anyway? How would she know she had collector tech in her?

[Frybread76]

Moiaussi wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Once upon a time I actually suggested that the Teltin scientists could've used Collector technology to make Jack's amp. And it's the only one of its kind. She's the only one who can break through Collector barriers. But she's dying. The amp's killing her (it already sort of is in the game). She has to get to the Collector base and find a cure.

But you see, I like yours better because it gets her angry, and every time Jack swears I just get so tickled.

Samara! Dude, why can't one of her daughters have gotten captured by the Collectors or something? They'd want to study ardat-yakshi. It's a rare genetic anomaly. Or better yet, create another Benezia figure! Only this one's a justicar. A justicar, working for the Collectors! SAMARA MUST STOP HER.

Right, because a Justicar, sworn to a code of Asari justice, wouldn't be interested in stopping a group involved in kidnappings and/or 'collecting' people who have suddenly moved on up to abducting whole colonies unless there was some conflict of interest ( a daughter) involved....

If she learned collector tech made her amp (which seems exceedingly unlikely unless Cerberus brought down collector vessels before), Jack would obviously blame the collectors rather than the organization that actually implanted the amp and tortured her through her entire childhood.....and what does she know about amp tech anyway? How would she know she had collector tech in her?

That still would give Jack a more logical reason to stick with Shepard on a "suicide mission" than what we're given.

[Iakus]

[quote]Moiaussi wrote...
Unless she has 'biotic intuition' the same way the consort does. She could simple 'know' without actually knowing consciously why. Precident exists in ME.[/quote]

Nope.  She says something like "If I must punish a killer, do I need to know he was kind to his family?" (I'll have to see if I can find the actual quote)  She literaly didn't need to know anything besides "shoot Collectors"

[quote]Jack presents herself as violent and unpredictable, but there is as much or more talk there as action. In the detail we learn more, such as the fact that she thought she broke out alone, but there was actually a lot more going on. She talks as if she is psychotic all the time, but even when confronting Miranda, she argued rather than Shepard finding them literally at each other's throats.

She isn't random. A bit lost yes. Looking for answers, definately. Posturing? Constantly. Unpredictably violent? Not so much.[/quote]

Eh, I think the fact that she's more bark than bite is a writer's thing.  They wanted "cool", "dark" and "edgy" without making Jack too "dark and edgy" and actually start killing people.  She's a killer, but she's our killer.  She's as random and as violent as the writers thought players could take and still sympathize with her.

[quote]Heh, hope you are exaggerating.... those lines are so corny they'd only attract crows... and if such files existed, why would Shepard have to have 'discovered' the Collectors were behind it all? Horizon would have been completely unneccessary and Shepard should have been worrying about the Collectors back in ME1
[/quote]
Heh, I'm just an idea man.  A reader, not a writer   as to the hyppothetical files:  the Collectors are known in the Terminus Systems, if more through rumor and legend than any hard facts.  Thane himself said he knew of the Collectors "by reputation" when you first meet him.  It would only make sense to seek out whatever scraps of information might be floating out theere.  Part of what bugs me in ME 2 is that Okeer is the only attempt to actually find some actual firsthand knowledge of the Collectors.[/quote]

[Iakus]

Terror_K wrote...

With regards to Jack, it's likely that knowing that she's an unstable biotic killing machine that hates Cerberus that TIM wanted to kind of literally kill two birds with one stone here. She's an extremely powerful biotic (in cutscenes) who has the ability to provide some strong support for the mission due to her talents, and on top of it all this is supposedly a suicide mission. TIM probably doesn't want her to come back.

One of several goofy theories I've come up with is that TIM deliberatly loaded up the Normandy with "undesirables"   Cerberus members who aren't "true believers" or in Miranda's case, more of a liability than she's worth.  Jack, who hates Cerberus and is far too powerful and violent to let live (not to mention living evidence of what Cerberus does), Zaed and Kasumi, a pair of criminals who have crossed Cerberus before, and a bunch of aliens each of whom could cause Cerberus trouble in their own ways.  The Suicide Mission was supposed to be a bloodbath.

It makes as much sense as anything else in ME 2.

[Nightwriter]

Moiaussi wrote...

Right, because a Justicar, sworn to a code of Asari justice, wouldn't be interested in stopping a group involved in kidnappings and/or 'collecting' people who have suddenly moved on up to abducting whole colonies unless there was some conflict of interest ( a daughter) involved....

Yep.

It's totally random. She'll hop on any train to Injusticeville she sees. Also it doesn't make sense.

She has literally nothing but Shepard's word that bad things are happening to people. And she just joins up without a hitch, despite the fact that she's right in the middle of a 400 year long hunt for a sex vampire. Shouldn't she say, "Sorry, 400 year old sex vampires take precedence over random strangers who tell me they have important stuff I should check out"?

Moiaussi wrote...

If she learned collector tech made her amp (which seems exceedingly unlikely unless Cerberus brought down collector vessels before), Jack would obviously blame the collectors rather than the organization that actually implanted the amp and tortured her through her entire childhood.....and what does she know about amp tech anyway? How would she know she had collector tech in her?

Hard to address this without going into lengthy writing explanations. So I won't.

Basically, of course she'd still blame Cerberus, they were the ones who tortured her and put the amp in her. She doesn't need to know it's Collector tech, either. Shepard could be the one to tell her that.

[Moiaussi]

[quote]iakus wrote...

Nope.  She says something like "If I must punish a killer, do I need to know he was kind to his family?" (I'll have to see if I can find the actual quote)  She literaly didn't need to know anything besides "shoot Collectors"[/quote]

She does still presumably need to know they are a killer, not merely to assume they are. Otherwise, Justicars are merely psychotic, and that doesn't seem to be the case. To the contrary, her vouching for the evidence that Shepard provides regarding the killer, evidence she herself has not examined, and only having just met Shepard, and the detective accepting that as admissable under Asari law strongly suggest there is more to Justicars than random hunches. Pre- or post cognitive intuition does not need to 'know if someone was kind to their family' to know they are a killer. It is simply 'knowing they are a killer' by whatever means.... mind reading, aura reading, literally seeing an aspect of the past or future.. the precise mechanism does not matter. It is knowing by way of psychic ability. Not knowing the details is one of the main reasons why precogs (sci-fi or fantasy) traditionally speak crypticly.

[quote]Eh, I think the fact that she's more bark than bite is a writer's thing.  They wanted "cool", "dark" and "edgy" without making Jack too "dark and edgy" and actually start killing people.  She's a killer, but she's our killer.  She's as random and as violent as the writers thought players could take and still sympathize with her.[/quote]

You do realize that she is a fictional character, and everything about her is 'the writer's thing'.... Why do people talk about these characters as if they have some sort of existance of the page? As if they are some real character that the writer is writing about but 'getting it wrong?' You do realize reputations don't have to equate to fact? Never heard of 'the Dread Pirate Roberts?'

[quote]Heh, I'm just an idea man.  A reader, not a writer   as to the hyppothetical files:  the Collectors are known in the Terminus Systems, if more through rumor and legend than any hard facts.  Thane himself said he knew of the Collectors "by reputation" when you first meet him.  It would only make sense to seek out whatever scraps of information might be floating out theere.  Part of what bugs me in ME 2 is that Okeer is the only attempt to actually find some actual firsthand knowledge of the Collectors.[/quote][/quote]

He is an assassin, not an archaeologist or information broker. The collectors show up rarely and there are no indications that they hire assassins. Why would he study a group that are neither likely to be a client or target, yet could become a threat if he poked into their business? Even though it is not known to be the collectors behind it, it is a safe bet that it is known that colonies are disappearing. As such, when told by a reputable source that the collectors are behind it, why wouldn't he believe it? If he is looking to redeem himself by being more selective in contracts in his final years, why wouldn't he see it as a good opportunity?

What you seem to be saying is that it is more believable to you that he would know what the collectors are up to (generally, i.e. behind the abductions) than for him to know Shepard's reputation or real role in the Citadel war. Unlike the collectors, Shepard is a potential client or target, and it is reasonable to believe that Thane has sufficient contacts to know Shepard really was instrumental in saving the Citadel.

[Moiaussi]

Nightwriter wrote...
Yep.

It's totally random. She'll hop on any train to Injusticeville she sees. Also it doesn't make sense.

She has literally nothing but Shepard's word that bad things are happening to people. And she just joins up without a hitch, despite the fact that she's right in the middle of a 400 year long hunt for a sex vampire. Shouldn't she say, "Sorry, 400 year old sex vampires take precedence over random strangers who tell me they have important stuff I should check out"?

 
Unless she has a non-arbitrary ability to judge character. We know that even an Asari as young as Liara can transfer and/or share memories by touch. The ability of a matriarch to sense something more basic like sincerity might well not even require touch. Plus we know that at least some Asari have at least limtied precog abilities (the consort does, as shown in both ME1 and ME2). But of course all that is too far fetched unless the writers hit you over the head with it I guess.....?

Hard to address this without going into lengthy writing explanations. So I won't.

Basically, of course she'd still blame Cerberus, they were the ones who tortured her and put the amp in her. She doesn't need to know it's Collector tech, either. Shepard could be the one to tell her that.

So since it isn't collector tech, are you saying she isn't believable because she isn't going after whoever the manufacturer is? And/or the drug manufacturer's who made whatever she was injected with? Its like blaming chain manufacturers if you are chained up in a dungeon. You are really reaching.

[Nightwriter]

Moiaussi, you can, like, be really confusing.

Whatever side path we splintered off on, the core of it is this: the characters needed better reasons for being there.

Either better connections to the Reapers, better explanations for why their skills were needed, more info from TIM about why he picked them, or just something that made them not totally random characters who all happened to have reasons why jumping aboard the space ship of a random passerby suited them.

[Jebel Krong]

Terror_K wrote...

Having everybody tie directly in with The Collector's plot due to personal reasons would have come across as too convenient and contrived. It was already bad enough that four key ME1 characters are all within quarter of a mile of each other on Illium, let alone having everybody directly linked to The Collectors. What they needed to do was actually give them a reason to actually be the best of the best for this mission. As it stands Mordin is the only one who really directly ties into them, the rest are just there for the suicide mission and that's about it. Any strong asari biotic would likely be a better choice than Jack simply because they'd at least be more stable and could be trusted more. What you need the biotic for isn't even known until you actually arrive at the Collector's base. They needed to actually tie them more into the preparations and Collector-related missions prior to the Suicide Mission itself too. Some had upgrades for The Normandy too, but this was another thing that we didn't know until we already had them. Much like Horizon was almost a justification for Mordin's presence, there should have been some other smaller Collector missions keyed to the other players to give them cause to be there.

this. the fact that you ended up needing a biotic but didn't know about it beforehand was obviously part of TIM's strategy to try and cover all the bases, hence some of the recruitment choices, jack in that sense was a known elements, as much as she's an outsider, even by ME2 character standards (i wouldn't have recruited her if she wasn't mandatory). if you knew you needed a biotic before you went on the final mission, it would have taken away the impact of the event/choice.

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 18 octobre 2010 - 08:48 .

[Jebel Krong]

iakus wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

With regards to Jack, it's likely that knowing that she's an unstable biotic killing machine that hates Cerberus that TIM wanted to kind of literally kill two birds with one stone here. She's an extremely powerful biotic (in cutscenes) who has the ability to provide some strong support for the mission due to her talents, and on top of it all this is supposedly a suicide mission. TIM probably doesn't want her to come back.

One of several goofy theories I've come up with is that TIM deliberatly loaded up the Normandy with "undesirables"   Cerberus members who aren't "true believers" or in Miranda's case, more of a liability than she's worth.  Jack, who hates Cerberus and is far too powerful and violent to let live (not to mention living evidence of what Cerberus does), Zaed and Kasumi, a pair of criminals who have crossed Cerberus before, and a bunch of aliens each of whom could cause Cerberus trouble in their own ways.  The Suicide Mission was supposed to be a bloodbath.

It makes as much sense as anything else in ME 2.

this is more than likely - TIM is no fool, after all. wow agreeing with something Terror_K and now you, said, what is the world coming to? 

[Jebel Krong]

Nightwriter wrote...

Moiaussi, you can, like, be really confusing.

Whatever side path we splintered off on, the core of it is this: the characters needed better reasons for being there.

Either better connections to the Reapers, better explanations for why their skills were needed, more info from TIM about why he picked them, or just something that made them not totally random characters who all happened to have reasons why jumping aboard the space ship of a random passerby suited them.

actually no. more connections to the reapers would have reduced the universe. their skills are self-evident and cover a lot of different scenarios for what was likely on the other side of the Omega IV relay.

[Killjoy Cutter]

I have to admit, the actual fight with the larval Reaper was a bit of a "whuh?" moment. 
I'd much rather have seen something like a reveal of the construction, with a scene that made it clear that the semi-humanoid form was to be the core of a Reaper, with the much larger standard Reaper shell being built around it at the same time.  This could have been made more clear by showing a dead alien-shaped core on the Reaper at Mnemosyne, maybe in place of the "husk shrine". 

Shep's final assualt is then to get to the core of the larval Reaper and trigger the overload, maybe fighting the semi-living parts of the machine all the way in, with cables ripping out and acting like tentacles, etc.

[Therion942]

Jebel Krong wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Moiaussi, you can, like, be really confusing.

Whatever side path we splintered off on, the core of it is this: the characters needed better reasons for being there.

Either better connections to the Reapers, better explanations for why their skills were needed, more info from TIM about why he picked them, or just something that made them not totally random characters who all happened to have reasons why jumping aboard the space ship of a random passerby suited them.

actually no. more connections to the reapers would have reduced the universe. their skills are self-evident and cover a lot of different scenarios for what was likely on the other side of the Omega IV relay.

Except for the part where, y'know, we never actually discuss what could be on the other side of the relay until we're about to jump through it. What the hell do we need a strike force for when the narrative implies it's going to be a ship battle up until the very end? None of these people possess any sort of worthwhile skill beyond shooting things sans Mordin, not even Shepard.

[Jebel Krong]

Therion942 wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Moiaussi, you can, like, be really confusing.

Whatever side path we splintered off on, the core of it is this: the characters needed better reasons for being there.

Either better connections to the Reapers, better explanations for why their skills were needed, more info from TIM about why he picked them, or just something that made them not totally random characters who all happened to have reasons why jumping aboard the space ship of a random passerby suited them.

actually no. more connections to the reapers would have reduced the universe. their skills are self-evident and cover a lot of different scenarios for what was likely on the other side of the Omega IV relay.

Except for the part where, y'know, we never actually discuss what could be on the other side of the relay until we're about to jump through it. What the hell do we need a strike force for when the narrative implies it's going to be a ship battle up until the very end? None of these people possess any sort of worthwhile skill beyond shooting things sans Mordin, not even Shepard.

actually you do, with TIM, and he was expecting a base but on the collector "homeworld" at the time.

[Killjoy Cutter]

And once the fact that it's in the galactic core is discovered, there is a discussion about how it has to be a base and not an entire planet.

[SimonTheFrog]

I always hated this part of hero-battles. If you have a team of heros with different special abilities, during the big fight all find a convenient target for their skills. Its like this in films, comics and games too.

Or like James Bond when he's being handed out his equipment. Later on he need just exactly the stuff that he got in his pockets anyway.



Not sure if anybody in this world really enjoys these moments or if we all just sigh and move on.

[Moiaussi]

Nightwriter wrote...

Moiaussi, you can, like, be really confusing.

Whatever side path we splintered off on, the core of it is this: the characters needed better reasons for being there.

Either better connections to the Reapers, better explanations for why their skills were needed, more info from TIM about why he picked them, or just something that made them not totally random characters who all happened to have reasons why jumping aboard the space ship of a random passerby suited them.

To me, though it feels like they already do have 'better reasons' for being there, and that to make them more obvious would require being hit over the head with them or it becoming their stories and no longer Shepard's.

[Moiaussi]

Therion942 wrote...

Except for the part where, y'know, we never actually discuss what could be on the other side of the relay until we're about to jump through it. What the hell do we need a strike force for when the narrative implies it's going to be a ship battle up until the very end? None of these people possess any sort of worthwhile skill beyond shooting things sans Mordin, not even Shepard.

That isn't a flaw in the reasons for any given squaddie signing up though... that is an overall plot thing. I am sort of hoping that TIM will turn out to be a *lot* more than he appears to be. My theory that he is a second 'Vigil' left to watch over humanity would cover that (since then he could have known about the location of the base. As for why send them into the collector trap, perhaps he thought the collector ship would have had the IFF data and there wasn't time to extract it).
 
Otherwise you are right... and it is a point I made earlier. Sending a fleet in (after properly debugging the IFF rather than connecting it into the Normandy's systems completely) would have made a lot more sense.

[Moiaussi]

SimonTheFrog wrote...

I always hated this part of hero-battles. If you have a team of heros with different special abilities, during the big fight all find a convenient target for their skills. Its like this in films, comics and games too.
Or like James Bond when he's being handed out his equipment. Later on he need just exactly the stuff that he got in his pockets anyway.

Not sure if anybody in this world really enjoys these moments or if we all just sigh and move on.

Which is why it is more believable to me that Thane has no specific role. There are people actually complaining about that in another thread....

[Killjoy Cutter]

SimonTheFrog wrote...

I always hated this part of hero-battles. If you have a team of heros with different special abilities, during the big fight all find a convenient target for their skills. Its like this in films, comics and games too.
Or like James Bond when he's being handed out his equipment. Later on he need just exactly the stuff that he got in his pockets anyway.

Not sure if anybody in this world really enjoys these moments or if we all just sigh and move on.

That's the kind of thing that makes me wonder why people want everyone on the team to have an exact role to fill in the suicide mission and all have a clear and strong connection to the main plot.  Does it strain credibiltiy when you have that many coincidences piled up?

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 18 octobre 2010 - 06:27 .

[Frybread76]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

SimonTheFrog wrote...

I always hated this part of hero-battles. If you have a team of heros with different special abilities, during the big fight all find a convenient target for their skills. Its like this in films, comics and games too.
Or like James Bond when he's being handed out his equipment. Later on he need just exactly the stuff that he got in his pockets anyway.

Not sure if anybody in this world really enjoys these moments or if we all just sigh and move on.

That's the kind of thing that makes me wonder why people want everyone on the team to have an exact role to fill in the suicide mission and all have a clear and strong connection to the main plot.  Does it strain credibiltiy when you have that many coincidences piled up?

Yes.

[Iakus]

Moiaussi wrote...
She does still presumably need to know they are a killer, not merely to assume they are. Otherwise, Justicars are merely psychotic, and that doesn't seem to be the case. To the contrary, her vouching for the evidence that Shepard provides regarding the killer, evidence she herself has not examined, and only having just met Shepard, and the detective accepting that as admissable under Asari law strongly suggest there is more to Justicars than random hunches. Pre- or post cognitive intuition does not need to 'know if someone was kind to their family' to know they are a killer. It is simply 'knowing they are a killer' by whatever means.... mind reading, aura reading, literally seeing an aspect of the past or future.. the precise mechanism does not matter. It is knowing by way of psychic ability. Not knowing the details is one of the main reasons why precogs (sci-fi or fantasy) traditionally speak crypticly.

 I found the concept of justicars very interesting and wished to learn more about them.  But Samara simply deciding to follow Shepard "just because:" is a head-scratcher.  If some sort of "disturbance in the Force" was really involved, it would be nice to let the player know that, and not have to assume that she follows you "because the game says so"

Here's the exact wording:

Shepard:  "How much do you know about our mission?"
Samara: " I know I have sworn an oath to follow you, and that you seek to destroy the Collectors.  That is enough for me"
Shepard: " You don't want to know why the Collectors need to be fought?"
Samara:  "When you live by a code that compels you to harsh action, you learn the dangers of curiosity.  If I must kill a man because he has done wrong, do I really wish to know he is a devoted father?"

You do realize that she is a fictional character, and everything about her is 'the writer's thing'.... Why do people talk about these characters as if they have some sort of existance of the page? As if they are some real character that the writer is writing about but 'getting it wrong?' You do realize reputations don't have to equate to fact? Never heard of 'the Dread Pirate Roberts?'

I absolutely know that it's all fictional.  But a good writer makes the character's actions seem natural.  Jack was a dangerous, violent criminal, feared by inmates and guards alike in Purgatory.  Purgatory itself was a prison for the absolute worst in the galaxy, where even the "small timers" had multiple homicides under their belt.  True we don't have independant verification about the violent exploits Jack describes (save perhaps those of the Teltin facility) but she had little reason to lie.  That's more than just having a rep.  Yet once brought on board, Jack has "arguements"  Her attitude gets toned down to merely "edgy" 

He is an assassin, not an archaeologist or information broker. The collectors show up rarely and there are no indications that they hire assassins. Why would he study a group that are neither likely to be a client or target, yet could become a threat if he poked into their business? Even though it is not known to be the collectors behind it, it is a safe bet that it is known that colonies are disappearing. As such, when told by a reputable source that the collectors are behind it, why wouldn't he believe it? If he is looking to redeem himself by being more selective in contracts in his final years, why wouldn't he see it as a good opportunity?

Before being recruited by Shepard, no Thane would have no reason to study the Collectors.  Afterwards, yes, it only makes sense that he'd avail himself of whatever information is known about the Collectors, both in the past and whatever Cerberus has available on the colony disappearances.  He's an assassin, a hunter.  He would have to learn about the prey he'll be stalking.  That's what I was talking about.   Learning the details of  Collector activities after being recruited.

[Iakus]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

I have to admit, the actual fight with the larval Reaper was a bit of a "whuh?" moment. 
I'd much rather have seen something like a reveal of the construction, with a scene that made it clear that the semi-humanoid form was to be the core of a Reaper, with the much larger standard Reaper shell being built around it at the same time.  This could have been made more clear by showing a dead alien-shaped core on the Reaper at Mnemosyne, maybe in place of the "husk shrine". 

Shep's final assualt is then to get to the core of the larval Reaper and trigger the overload, maybe fighting the semi-living parts of the machine all the way in, with cables ripping out and acting like tentacles, etc.

I'd say just trash the larva (with the magical sliding smoothie dispensers) and find a different final boss, or final challenge if no boss is available