1700 réponses à ce sujet

[Moiaussi]

Pocketgb wrote...

And this is all compared to ME1's copy-pasted areas with barely-varied gameplay?

I'm admitting to the faults so there's no need for emphasis. ME2 wasn't a step back nor a step forward, it just stayed in place.

Actual gameplay in terms of combat mechanics was better in ME2, but despite all the complaints regarding exploring copy paste worlds, that was still more satisfying than the bizarre scanning/stripmining in ME2.

[Iakus]

Jebel Krong wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

It does seem like EA beat them over the head with a "YOU NEED MORE BEWBS IN UR GAME" lecture or something.

Ugh. Benezia was enough for me to bear. You don't need to up the dosage.

benezia was worse than anyone in me2, and she looked really out of place to everyone else, too.

Benezia's outfit was bad.  No arguement there.  But that's just Benezia.  She doesn't have a huge amount of screen time.  In ME 2 we have Miranda, Samara, Jack, which are characters that are supposed to follow Shepard around constantly.

[Iakus]

Pocketgb wrote...

And this is all compared to ME1's copy-pasted areas with barely-varied gameplay?

I'm admitting to the faults so there's no need for emphasis. ME2 wasn't a step back nor a step forward, it just stayed in place.

Depends on what you value.  The scenery certainly looked better.  But to me, looks aren't everything.  There's gotta be a reason to be there.  Maybe a few observations about the situation.  Something besides running through a beautiful countryside, gunning down random mercs.

[Pocketgb]

iakus wrote...
Depends on what you value.

Exactly. In terms of sidequests, both games catered to widely different spectrums. In this sense they both lost, since they need to be catering to mulitple interests.

Moiaussi wrote...
Actual
gameplay in terms of combat mechanics was better in ME2, but despite
all the complaints regarding exploring copy paste worlds, that was still
more satisfying than the bizarre scanning/stripmining in ME2.

For me it was just as systematic as gathering the materials planetside in ME1. I think I've gotten used to the fact that the 'resource gathering' part of the game is just always going to be bland.

Modifié par Pocketgb, 22 octobre 2010 - 07:14 .

[Moiaussi]

Pocketgb wrote...

For me it was just as systematic as gathering the materials planetside in ME1. I think I've gotten used to the fact that the 'resource gathering' part of the game is just always going to be bland.

In ME1, we actively planted markers and were paid in immediately transferable credits.

In ME2, we are surveying and seemingly stripmining, paid in raw materials that arrive imediately and the process was one that should have been automated.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Moiaussi wrote...

Pocketgb wrote...

For me it was just as systematic as gathering the materials planetside in ME1. I think I've gotten used to the fact that the 'resource gathering' part of the game is just always going to be bland.

In ME1, we actively planted markers and were paid in immediately transferable credits.

In ME2, we are surveying and seemingly stripmining, paid in raw materials that arrive imediately and the process was one that should have been automated.

Improvements I would have liked to have seen on the "mining" system in ME2:

1) When you scan the planet, it scans the whole planet, so that I don't have to drag my mouse around holding down a button the whole time.  It tells you what's there and how many probes it will take to stake the claims on found minerals.

2) The improved mineral scanner just increases the yield of scanning and staking a claim.

3) A commodities exchange on each hub world, so that I can sell, trade, and buy the minerals, thus making the game less of a resource scrounge for credits and metals, and more about story and combat.

[Nightwriter]

Mineral scanning could be great, it doesn't fail just because it's mineral scanning and mineral scanning will always fail.

Everything is about reward. Give us little treats in reward for scanning, make us feel like we're treasure hunting.

- Scanning enough palladium wins us a contract with a palladium manufacturing company who will give us gear. New guns, new model colors.
- Scanning enough platinum wins us a contract with a prestigious trading company who will give us access to their stores, where we can buy superficial things. New haircuts, new armor patterns. 

Seriously, you know many planets I would scan if I thought it would get me a new haircut?

[Moiaussi]

Nightwriter wrote...

Mineral scanning could be great, it doesn't fail just because it's mineral scanning and mineral scanning will always fail.

Everything is about reward. Give us little treats in reward for scanning, make us feel like we're treasure hunting.

- Scanning enough palladium wins us a contract with a palladium manufacturing company who will give us gear. New guns, new model colors.
- Scanning enough platinum wins us a contract with a prestigious trading company who will give us access to their stores, where we can buy superficial things. New haircuts, new armor patterns. 

Seriously, you know many planets I would scan if I thought it would get me a new haircut?

To me it is immersion breaking. Why has noone else donethese surveys? Wouldn't it be easy rewards for mercs and/or anyone else? These are inhabited regions.... That's the other reason it has to be something other than just survey work.

[Nightwriter]

If we're taking immersion breaking that far, every single game ever made is going to break your immersion somehow. Every game where there are chests you can open will break your immersion, because why has no one opened these chests before now? There are goodies inside!

[Terror_K]

Pocketgb wrote...

iakus wrote...
Depends on what you value.

Exactly. In terms of sidequests, both games catered to widely different spectrums. In this sense they both lost, since they need to be catering to mulitple interests.

I just think it was simply a case of overcompensating for ME1's failings with ME2, which is something that plagues the game overall. The ME1 UNC missions were on samey areas and had you fighting in one of three bases repeatedly, but they put a lot of work into at least trying to make each one feel a little different (different planet textures and types, different skyboxes and hazards, interesting stories, NPCs, proper dialogue and set-ups, etc.). ME2's ones felt more like they were trying to scale them down and make the gameplay interesting, but put no real effort into making the actual stories interesting or providing proper interaction, characters, etc. It's almost like they ran out of budget just after actually designing each N7 world physically and just slapped things in there with very little effort.

I'd have been willing to forgive the N7 missions more for their small scale, gimmicky nature and over-design if they'd just put more effort into the stories, NPCs, dialogue and overall presentation of them. With ME1 it's like they said "let's put little effort into the gameplay, but lots into the presentation" and with ME2 they went "let's put lots into the gameplay, but no effort into the presentation." And again, when every world feels manufactured and inhabited and we never see a big, sprawling area of emptiness that personifies the vastness of space, it makes the universe feel small and cramped.

I think the answer is simple: give us a few dead UNC worlds with a vehicle, give us a new smaller N7 worlds, and give us a few Overlord hub-area style worlds, then present them all properly like ME1 with interesting stories, proper briefings, NPCs, dialogue, moral choices, squaddie input, and decent conclusions. The main issue with the UNC worlds was that there were so many of them that were pretty much the same, so I imagine that if you reduced that number to about a third and put in some N7 places and Overlord hub places to fill the rest most of the issues would be gone. 4 or 5 UNC worlds isn't going to be a big deal. Similarly, this would get rid of the similar issue the N7 missions gave us: that everywhere felt small and populated making the entire universe feel small.

[Nightwriter]

I keep hearing that the reason the things I wanted got cut is there wasn't enough space.

So when I play missions like the Estevanico one or the Endangered Research Base one I am so scandalized. I'm like, seriously? You cut valuable content just so you could squeeze these worthless sidequests in? Just so you could give me a giant teetering ship environment? 

[Killjoy Cutter]

Nightwriter wrote...

I keep hearing that the reason the things I wanted got cut is there wasn't enough space.

So when I play missions like the Estevanico one or the Endangered Research Base one I am so scandalized. I'm like, seriously? You cut valuable content just so you could squeeze these worthless sidequests in? Just so you could give me a giant teetering ship environment? 

I've stopped doing the Estavanico.  I don't care what comes of it, if anything, in ME3... it's just not worth the time, the fuel to get there, the high odds of hitting a glitch and having to start over...

[TMA LIVE]

Nightwriter wrote...

I keep hearing that the reason the things I wanted got cut is there wasn't enough space.

So when I play missions like the Estevanico one or the Endangered Research Base one I am so scandalized. I'm like, seriously? You cut valuable content just so you could squeeze these worthless sidequests in? Just so you could give me a giant teetering ship environment? 

What things did you want that got cut?

[tonnactus]

Nightwriter wrote...

Mineral scanning could be great, it doesn't fail just because it's mineral scanning and mineral scanning will always fail.

Everything is about reward. Give us little treats in reward for scanning, make us feel like we're treasure hunting.

- Scanning enough palladium wins us a contract with a palladium manufacturing company who will give us gear. New guns, new model colors.
- Scanning enough platinum wins us a contract with a prestigious trading company who will give us access to their stores, where we can buy superficial things. New haircuts, new armor patterns. 

Seriously, you know many planets I would scan if I thought it would get me a new haircut?

It would be a first step when the player could sell minerals that arent needed...
Funny,shepardt only could buy things, but couldnt sell any of them anymore.

[Moiaussi]

Nightwriter wrote...

If we're taking immersion breaking that far, every single game ever made is going to break your immersion somehow. Every game where there are chests you can open will break your immersion, because why has no one opened these chests before now? There are goodies inside!

So if I have any line at all, then everything crosses it? Why would the concept of hacking a computer an gaining immediately useful data (upgrade research) or immediately sellable data (credits), in both cases easily transferrable commodities equate to either magically getting ore shipments out of nowhere or having hyper efficiient mining gear on board?

The 'chests' that contain refined materials in ME  I am also fine with.

A chest containing spare magical cloaks in a fantasy game I am also fine with. You are not mining the cloaks. Finding spare gems or ore in an abandoned mine is not the same as running around digging the mines in the first place.

[Therion942]

Moiaussi wrote...

 You are not mining the cloaks.

By god Moiaussi, mining for cloaks is BRILLIANT, it'll be the next biggest thing since mining for fish!

[Nightwriter]

TMA LIVE wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

I keep hearing that the reason the things I wanted got cut is there wasn't enough space.

So when I play missions like the Estevanico one or the Endangered Research Base one I am so scandalized. I'm like, seriously? You cut valuable content just so you could squeeze these worthless sidequests in? Just so you could give me a giant teetering ship environment? 

What things did you want that got cut?

Oh, it just seems like every time I ask for something or say I wanted something, someone says there wasn't enough space or resources for what I wanted.

More dialogue? Won't fit!
More story? Won't fit!
Fleshing out the Collectors a little more? Won't fit!
Wanted that Mordin/Grunt fight? Won't fit!

So I'd like to know, if space and resources are so terribly, terribly strained, why they feel the need to put in a pointless mission like the Estevanico.

[Moiaussi]

Therion942 wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

 You are not mining the cloaks.

By god Moiaussi, mining for cloaks is BRILLIANT, it'll be the next biggest thing since mining for fish!

That was the best you can do, lol?

Given those were in the context of a fantasy setting, you night even be mining cloaks... magic means conventional logic need not neccessarily apply

[Nightwriter]

Moiaussi wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

If we're taking immersion breaking that far, every single game ever made is going to break your immersion somehow. Every game where there are chests you can open will break your immersion, because why has no one opened these chests before now? There are goodies inside!

So if I have any line at all, then everything crosses it? Why would the concept of hacking a computer an gaining immediately useful data (upgrade research) or immediately sellable data (credits), in both cases easily transferrable commodities equate to either magically getting ore shipments out of nowhere or having hyper efficiient mining gear on board?

The 'chests' that contain refined materials in ME  I am also fine with.

A chest containing spare magical cloaks in a fantasy game I am also fine with. You are not mining the cloaks. Finding spare gems or ore in an abandoned mine is not the same as running around digging the mines in the first place.

You lost me.

But basically there are levels of immersion breaking. Shepard & crew going on some mission during the IFF installation, big immersion breaker.

The fact that there are unmined planets in an infinite universe, less of an immersion breaker, though I see exactly where you're coming from. Planets around mass relays should be barren, you'd think.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 22 octobre 2010 - 10:59 .

[TMA LIVE]

Nightwriter wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

I keep hearing that the reason the things I wanted got cut is there wasn't enough space.

So when I play missions like the Estevanico one or the Endangered Research Base one I am so scandalized. I'm like, seriously? You cut valuable content just so you could squeeze these worthless sidequests in? Just so you could give me a giant teetering ship environment? 

What things did you want that got cut?

Oh, it just seems like every time I ask for something or say I wanted something, someone says there wasn't enough space or resources for what I wanted.

More dialogue? Won't fit!
More story? Won't fit!
Fleshing out the Collectors a little more? Won't fit!
Wanted that Mordin/Grunt fight? Won't fit!

So I'd like to know, if space and resources are so terribly, terribly strained, why they feel the need to put in a pointless mission like the Estevanico.

Oh that's not a space issue. That's more about time and money. Space can be solved with another disc. Stuff like Estevanico I think was done by a designer on his free time. I think Casey allowed a lot of people to make a N7 level on their free time, as long as it didn't cost much, or interfere with what matter in the main game.

[Nightwriter]

But the point is the Estevanico took man hours and development time, it took resources.

Why are they not using that time and those resources to give me better responses to Ashley/Kaidan on Horizon?

[Moiaussi]

Nightwriter wrote...

You lost me.

But basically there are levels of immersion breaking. Shepard & crew going on some mission during the IFF installation, big immersion breaker.

The fact that there are unmined planets in an infinite universe, less of an immersion breaker, though I see exactly where you're coming from. Planets around mass relays should be barren, you'd think.

You were comparing surveying planets with opening chests in other games, so I tried to explain why it is different.

The 'mission to nowhere' is also immersion breaking, but that one ranks right up there for me with not being able to lay a course in to anywhere whenever TIM wants to talk with you. Joker refuses. One immersion breaker does not preclude others....

[TMA LIVE]

Nightwriter wrote...

But the point is the Estevanico took man hours and development time, it took resources.

Why are they not using that time and those resources to give me better responses to Ashley/Kaidan on Horizon?

Lazy bad writers?

[Iakus]

Terror_K wrote...

Pocketgb wrote...

iakus wrote...
Depends on what you value.

Exactly. In terms of sidequests, both games catered to widely different spectrums. In this sense they both lost, since they need to be catering to mulitple interests.

I just think it was simply a case of overcompensating for ME1's failings with ME2, which is something that plagues the game overall. The ME1 UNC missions were on samey areas and had you fighting in one of three bases repeatedly, but they put a lot of work into at least trying to make each one feel a little different (different planet textures and types, different skyboxes and hazards, interesting stories, NPCs, proper dialogue and set-ups, etc.). ME2's ones felt more like they were trying to scale them down and make the gameplay interesting, but put no real effort into making the actual stories interesting or providing proper interaction, characters, etc. It's almost like they ran out of budget just after actually designing each N7 world physically and just slapped things in there with very little effort.

I'd have been willing to forgive the N7 missions more for their small scale, gimmicky nature and over-design if they'd just put more effort into the stories, NPCs, dialogue and overall presentation of them. With ME1 it's like they said "let's put little effort into the gameplay, but lots into the presentation" and with ME2 they went "let's put lots into the gameplay, but no effort into the presentation." And again, when every world feels manufactured and inhabited and we never see a big, sprawling area of emptiness that personifies the vastness of space, it makes the universe feel small and cramped.

I think the answer is simple: give us a few dead UNC worlds with a vehicle, give us a new smaller N7 worlds, and give us a few Overlord hub-area style worlds, then present them all properly like ME1 with interesting stories, proper briefings, NPCs, dialogue, moral choices, squaddie input, and decent conclusions. The main issue with the UNC worlds was that there were so many of them that were pretty much the same, so I imagine that if you reduced that number to about a third and put in some N7 places and Overlord hub places to fill the rest most of the issues would be gone. 4 or 5 UNC worlds isn't going to be a big deal. Similarly, this would get rid of the similar issue the N7 missions gave us: that everywhere felt small and populated making the entire universe feel small.

Indeed.  It's like they focused so much on improving or outright cutting the weaknesses of the old game that they forgot about what made ME 1 (or any other Bioware game) so great to begin with. 

[Terror_K]

iakus wrote...

Indeed.  It's like they focused so much on improving or outright cutting the weaknesses of the old game that they forgot about what made ME 1 (or any other Bioware game) so great to begin with. 

Pretty much, yeah.

Rather than fix ME1's issues, they simply cut out the whole thing the issue relates to, then replace it with a solution to the problem, but fail to put back the stuff that worked again. It's like instead of cutting the fat they're taking away all the meat, then putting some fatless meat back, but you end up with half the meat that was originally there as a result, and it also happens to be the best stuff that was lost in the process.

The Hammerhead is a classic example of this: people complain about the planet exploration, so they take out the whole thing and then put back something that seems to entirely miss the point of what actually made the good aspects of it good and we end up with something that's mostly worse as a result.