1700 réponses à ce sujet

[freestylez]

Jebel Krong wrote...

1. they aren't mindless and if you'd paid attention to the game it told you exactly what they were. why is it a problem that you actually deal with one threat over the course of one game, especially given what they are and the nature of the real threat?
2. one does not necessarily involve the other (though it could conceivably influence them).
3. which is explained and makes for interesting moral conflict.

the fact that the game didn't follow the oh-so-carefully charted course in your mind does not render reality invalid, or bad.

the weight of decisions do mean something (otherwise you wouldn't be able to get reinstated), but as the council say: they have to weigh up the impact on trillions, not just one guy.

1. They are mindless as in they were repurposed by the Reapers to do their will. I'm not sure why this is hard for you to understand, maybe you need to pay attention.

There's nothing wrong, prima facie, with introducing the Collectors. But you really only interact with this new threat on 3 occasions and are never raelly given a reason to really care what role they have in the trilogy. There's simply nothing invested into them.
 
2. Not sure what this means, but either way in the two years of your"death," the Council that was saved by Shepard or was reconstructed due to Shepard suddenly want nothing to do with the Reapers. We're not sure if they would've done the same if Shepard was alive, but it would have been even more illogical then what actually happened.

3. It was explained through the death/resurrection of your character. It was explained poorly. The fact they had to kill and bring back Shepard in the first 10 minutes of the game showed how hard it must have been to justify your character working with an organzation you killed in the previous installment.

the fact that the game didn't follow the oh-so-carefully charted course in your mind does not render reality invalid, or bad.

They could've followed up ME1 by making ME2 about a jello-eating contest - it would still be reality. But it would still be stupid, wouldn't it. The issue isn't that reality was "invalid" it just that it didn't follow. But no one is stoping you from enjoying the storyline - it's my opinion, after all.

Modifié par freestylez, 25 octobre 2010 - 02:35 .

[Nightwriter]

Jebel Krong wrote...

i certainly don't defend me2 because it doesn't warrant criticism - what gets me is people stating personal opinion as fact and, particularly, when people ignore the self-same same failings in me1 and state me2 sucks because of that very thing.

this whole thread reads like a child's tantrums because BW didn't write the story to suit their particular tastes, at times, you never see balanced criticism: it's all "me1 was so perfect and me2 totally screwed everything up! forever!!" so in that case i will defend it, yes.

btw - you certainyl aren't nearly as bad as some, night, and i know that.

I can understand where you're coming from, there are some very ardent complainers in this thread... I just hope the right people can sift through them to find the issues that actually deserve some attention.

Tbh, I didn't really have a carefully charted course in my mind, more this vague, broad, general sense of where it might be going. When I finished ME1 I had no idea what form ME2's story would take.

I also hope what I do isn't likened to something childish... I guess I'm really just going, "Hey, I loved that first game, it had themes and story elements I loved, it took me on a journey, I fell in love with your game universe... but in ME2 I just felt like the whole thing banked hard to port."

[Jebel Krong]

Nightwriter wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

i certainly don't defend me2 because it doesn't warrant criticism - what gets me is people stating personal opinion as fact and, particularly, when people ignore the self-same same failings in me1 and state me2 sucks because of that very thing.

this whole thread reads like a child's tantrums because BW didn't write the story to suit their particular tastes, at times, you never see balanced criticism: it's all "me1 was so perfect and me2 totally screwed everything up! forever!!" so in that case i will defend it, yes.

btw - you certainyl aren't nearly as bad as some, night, and i know that.

I can understand where you're coming from, there are some very ardent complainers in this thread... I just hope the right people can sift through them to find the issues that actually deserve some attention.

Tbh, I didn't really have a carefully charted course in my mind, more this vague, broad, general sense of where it might be going. When I finished ME1 I had no idea what form ME2's story would take.

I also hope what I do isn't likened to something childish... I guess I'm really just going, "Hey, I loved that first game, it had themes and story elements I loved, it took me on a journey, I fell in love with your game universe... but in ME2 I just felt like the whole thing banked hard to port."

i loved both games - for slightly different reasons/features, and both have failures, but 99% of what was right and magical crosses from ME1-2, so anything i could say negative about both (and i have said plenty in this and other threads, but in a more positive fashion than many) pales into insignificance in the grand scheme of things. people just get hung up on minutiae and it becomes a defining factor for them.

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 25 octobre 2010 - 03:10 .

[Nozybidaj]

Jebel Krong wrote...

like loading pauses, do you? 

Agreed, the seamless universe and lack of loading screens in ME2 is much better.  Wait....what?

which are much denser

This I actually do agree with considering the entire explorable area of the Citadel in ME2 can fit inside the Embassy area of the ME1 Citadel, yes they are much "denser".

[Jebel Krong]

heh spelling/grammar fail on my part (and that's after i generally have to edit posts because my spelling is usually good, my typing - notsomuch).

you can actually get a loading pause on illium, if you go through the door underneath Liara's office and then try to run back through that corridor again, it will pause a la me1. at least the loading screens are all you generally get in the sequel though, and then for only 30 seconds or so.

as for the citadel presidium - as it wasn't an explorable area in me2 - why is that a problem? if it's not necessary to the story, why include it?

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 25 octobre 2010 - 03:15 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Jebel Krong wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Having played ME2 first, when I started walking around the Citadel in ME1, I was thinking "This is more like it!"

like loading pauses, do you? 

actually the presidium is conceptually and visually stunning, but game-wise the whole place is technically a mess, something you can't say about any of the hubs in me2 (which are much denser and technically much better).

I don't care for loading pauses any more than anyone else.  But I do like that I can go to more and varied parts of this supposedly giant place, and that large chunks of content areN'T reserved solely for inside specific missions.

EDIT:  typo obscured meaning.

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 26 octobre 2010 - 01:29 .

[SimonTheFrog]

In the matter of leveldesign, especially stations, i think BioWare is doing a very good job. Please note, that it's a company that became famous for its stories and characters and didn't specialize on fast paced action in stunning environments, like Epic for example.

Now they even get the levels looking brilliant, its something that we shouldn't just take for granted.



In ME1 they decided the pack the 500mb memory of the Xbox with wider areas but not so many details and people said its bland. In ME2 they polished the details and made the areas smaller in order to not exceed the 500mb (if you do, the console dies). Now people complain about that too.



I'm sure they will try to mix it a little more in ME3, but is this really what we want to complain about? The areas look cool already, so the important part is to fill them with cool characters, humor, drama and action... isn't it? That would be my priority, and not if it takes me 3 or 8 minutes to cross each level.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Nightwriter wrote...

Killjoy, as someone who played ME2 first, how did you feel ME1's story compared with ME2's? 

More of ME1's content was tied to the main story, and more of the side content was linked by side stories.  This isn't to say that ME1 didn't have its share of "Why am I wasting time with this crap, the clock is ticking!" content that I did anyway because of the XP and equipment needs (ah, the metagaming) -- a small issue with both games.

I don't think either story was bad.  ME2 did come across as a forced and contrived in more spots than ME1, with examples given aplenty. 

I don't like feeling rail-roaded by an RPG, and ME2 gave me more of that feeling.  I'd say that talking to the Council before agreeing to work with Cerberus would have helped, but the way they treat Shep in the meeting makes it seem just as bad.  Oddly enough, the "Sorry, TIM has an errand" moments were some of the worst in terms of feeling railroaded.

I would like to have had more options to try to explain to the VS how Shep (or my Sheps, at least) feel like they're trapped working with Cerberus because no one else is helping, and how frustrating it is.

[Killjoy Cutter]

SimonTheFrog wrote...

In the matter of leveldesign, especially stations, i think BioWare is doing a very good job. Please note, that it's a company that became famous for its stories and characters and didn't specialize on fast paced action in stunning environments, like Epic for example.
Now they even get the levels looking brilliant, its something that we shouldn't just take for granted.

In ME1 they decided the pack the 500mb memory of the Xbox with wider areas but not so many details and people said its bland. In ME2 they polished the details and made the areas smaller in order to not exceed the 500mb (if you do, the console dies). Now people complain about that too.

I'm sure they will try to mix it a little more in ME3, but is this really what we want to complain about? The areas look cool already, so the important part is to fill them with cool characters, humor, drama and action... isn't it? That would be my priority, and not if it takes me 3 or 8 minutes to cross each level.

They could do a lot for the game by not writing it for the Xbox...

What?

[Xeranx]

Jebel Krong wrote...

 what gets me is people stating personal opinion as fact 

This does come off as combative and I apologize for that, but I feel I have to ask:
Is

Jebel Krong wrote...
garrus was boring as hell in me1

a factual statement?

[Lord Nicholai]

freestylez wrote...
but either way in the two years of your"death," the Council that was saved by Shepard or was reconstructed due to Shepard suddenly want nothing to do with the Reapers. We're not sure if they would've done the same if Shepard was alive, but it would have been even more illogical then what actually happened.

There was never any evidence to back up Shepards Reaper theory 100%. Would you be quick to believe someone if they told you that an ancient race of super machines were going to wipe everyone out? People seem to forget that we are the audience so of course the Reapers are an obvious threat to us, but if you were a character in the ME universe would it be so easy to believe? To be honest I'd go with the council and say that Shepard is full of it and the geth built Sovereign

[Xeranx]

Lord Nicholai wrote...

freestylez wrote...
but either way in the two years of your"death," the Council that was saved by Shepard or was reconstructed due to Shepard suddenly want nothing to do with the Reapers. We're not sure if they would've done the same if Shepard was alive, but it would have been even more illogical then what actually happened.

There was never any evidence to back up Shepards Reaper theory 100%. Would you be quick to believe someone if they told you that an ancient race of super machines were going to wipe everyone out? People seem to forget that we are the audience so of course the Reapers are an obvious threat to us, but if you were a character in the ME universe would it be so easy to believe? To be honest I'd go with the council and say that Shepard is full of it and the geth built Sovereign

Then that would make the Geth a bigger threat, no?  Why then not use your Spectre, Shepard, who has an obvious tie-in with the Quarians (Tali) and discuss strategy to take the Geth down?  Why shut your Spectre down wholesale?  That's not keeping info close to the vest.  That's burying your head in the sand.  Even for self-serving politicians that makes absolutely no sense.

There's nothing that says if the Geth built one already that they don't have another.  So that's stupidity times 2 for assuming you're in the clear though you may have an enemy you don't understand.  Then of course there's the unbelievable idea that Saren was so charismatic that he managed to do what they Quarians couldn't: understand the Geth and have them JOIN him in trying to take over the Citadel rather than the Geth giving Saren an ultimatum to help them or else.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Lord Nicholai wrote...

freestylez wrote...
but either way in the two years of your"death," the Council that was saved by Shepard or was reconstructed due to Shepard suddenly want nothing to do with the Reapers. We're not sure if they would've done the same if Shepard was alive, but it would have been even more illogical then what actually happened.

There was never any evidence to back up Shepards Reaper theory 100%. Would you be quick to believe someone if they told you that an ancient race of super machines were going to wipe everyone out? People seem to forget that we are the audience so of course the Reapers are an obvious threat to us, but if you were a character in the ME universe would it be so easy to believe? To be honest I'd go with the council and say that Shepard is full of it and the geth built Sovereign

I always wonder how none of the evidence was recorded considering that everyone is wearing the computing power and storage capacity of a midsize real-life business around on their arm...

[Lord Nicholai]

Xeranx wrote...



Then that would make the Geth a bigger threat, no?  Why then not use your Spectre, Shepard, who has an obvious tie-in with the Quarians (Tali) and discuss strategy to take the Geth down?  Why shut your Spectre down wholesale?  That's not keeping info close to the vest.  That's burying your head in the sand.  Even for self-serving politicians that makes absolutely no sense.

The geth are scattered after their attack on the citadel, so there can't be a solid plan to take them down. Sure, Shepard was great at stopping their attack, but now that its just a case of cleaning up the mess do the council really need Shepard? Should the council tell the entire galaxy that an ancient race is trying to make its way out of dark space and wipe everyone out, with absolutely no evidence other than the word of Shepard. I would not believe Shepard if I were on the council, and wouldn't waste time on chasing an enemy that I don't even know for certain exists.

[Nozybidaj]

Lord Nicholai wrote...
 I would not believe Shepard if I were on the council, and wouldn't waste time on chasing an enemy that I don't even know for certain exists.

Or you could look at the giant reaper that exploded all over the Citadel which, according to ME2, contained the slushified body of some ancient race.  Oh wait, every last trace of this giant advanced warship convienently disappeared, well, somehow.  Not even a single spoonful of alien race shlushie remained that the Citadel DNA scanners that can determine a person's identity from a few flakes of skin could be analyzed.  Gosh just what was I thinking. <_<

[Jebel Krong]

Xeranx wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

 what gets me is people stating personal opinion as fact 

This does come off as combative and I apologize for that, but I feel I have to ask:
Is

Jebel Krong wrote...
garrus was boring as hell in me1

a factual statement?

Compared to his me2 incarnation? Most definitely!

Hyperbole aside, it was just an example of a character that was better in the sequel - the fact that he was a returning one, even better.

[Lord Nicholai]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Lord Nicholai wrote...
 I would not believe Shepard if I were on the council, and wouldn't waste time on chasing an enemy that I don't even know for certain exists.

Or you could look at the giant reaper that exploded all over the Citadel which, according to ME2, contained the slushified body of some ancient race.  Oh wait, every last trace of this giant advanced warship convienently disappeared, well, somehow.  Not even a single spoonful of alien race shlushie remained that the Citadel DNA scanners that can determine a person's identity from a few flakes of skin could be analyzed.  Gosh just what was I thinking. <_<

We know its a giant reaper, but for all the council know its a geth-built ship. As mentioned in ME2, most of the debris from Sovereign was taken by looters, and the whole 'body of an ancient race' thing was a rumour, not fact.  Just because its highly advanced, does that mean it must be from an ancient super-race? The latest smartphone seems to be pretty advanced, so it must be alien technology

Do you believe in aliens? Do you thnk we should all believe crazy Joe and prepare for the alein invasion that is going to happen in a couple of years time? Would you class shaky-cam footage of bigfoot as solid evidence?  
Think of the X-Files. No one believed Mulder because he had no proof. We saw that he was telling the truth, but the other characters rightfully thought he was a crackpot. Its the same thing with Mass Effect

[Xeranx]

Lord Nicholai wrote...

Xeranx wrote...



Then that would make the Geth a bigger threat, no?  Why then not use your Spectre, Shepard, who has an obvious tie-in with the Quarians (Tali) and discuss strategy to take the Geth down?  Why shut your Spectre down wholesale?  That's not keeping info close to the vest.  That's burying your head in the sand.  Even for self-serving politicians that makes absolutely no sense.

The geth are scattered after their attack on the citadel, so there can't be a solid plan to take them down. Sure, Shepard was great at stopping their attack, but now that its just a case of cleaning up the mess do the council really need Shepard? Should the council tell the entire galaxy that an ancient race is trying to make its way out of dark space and wipe everyone out, with absolutely no evidence other than the word of Shepard. I would not believe Shepard if I were on the council, and wouldn't waste time on chasing an enemy that I don't even know for certain exists.

I understand where you're coming from.  Let's, however, look at it from a part of the world perspective because there's evidence that proves contrary to the narrative considering the heretics.  The idea that the Geth are scattered is not a certainty.  To believe and shore up that belief is relying on faith.  If it's something good you go with faith, but if it means you might die faith is in your back pocket while you're working with your hands and whatever tools are at your disposal.  In this case, the Council has put faith that there won't be another attack in front of them and are playing ostrich.  If Shepard had done the same the Council wouldn't be there to discuss anything.  Maybe the galaxy would have been cleansed of the current advanced population.

Now, If I may be allowed to draw a real world comparison, the US knew about impending attacks on Sept. 11, 2001 in April of 2001and had no contingencies in place to thwart actions that could (at the time as it was just intelligence) happen.  That cost us almost 3k on US soil.  Many are angry because it is believed that it was allowed.

Now consider the Council's actions and ask if they're not playing Russian Roulette?  It's quite a gamble and it can be severely devastating if anything were to come to pass.  That Shepard and crew were doing clean-up is a good idea (kind of), but that not a significant piece of Sovereign could be collected to be analyzed is beyond stretching it. I would argue gross incompetence.

Lord Nicholai wrote...
We know its a giant reaper, but for all the council know its a geth-built ship. As mentioned in ME2, most of the debris from Sovereign was taken by looters, and the whole 'body of an ancient race' thing was a rumour, not fact.  Just because its highly advanced, does that mean it must be from an ancient super-race?

What exactly is most of the debris?  A large chunk (tip of one of Sovereign's tentacles) crashed through the Council's meeting area.  A large part of Sovereign was floating in space (probably still is).  Several pieces exist and the Council couldn't organize C-Sec to secure areas and get as much material as possible?  Or C-Sec couldn't mobilize themselves to do it to keep the residents safe?  It's mentioned that the Keepers aren't able to fix a bulk-head in less than 2 days.  I even think it's mentioned that it took a week or so, so the idea that there's no material left to analyze is ludicrous.

Modifié par Xeranx, 25 octobre 2010 - 07:49 .

[freestylez]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Lord Nicholai wrote...
 I would not believe Shepard if I were on the council, and wouldn't waste time on chasing an enemy that I don't even know for certain exists.

Or you could look at the giant reaper that exploded all over the Citadel which, according to ME2, contained the slushified body of some ancient race.  Oh wait, every last trace of this giant advanced warship convienently disappeared, well, somehow.  Not even a single spoonful of alien race shlushie remained that the Citadel DNA scanners that can determine a person's identity from a few flakes of skin could be analyzed.  Gosh just what was I thinking. <_<

LOL. That is all.

[Moiaussi]

Jebel Krong wrote...

Compared to his me2 incarnation? Most definitely!

Hyperbole aside, it was just an example of a character that was better in the sequel - the fact that he was a returning one, even better.

Definately opinion only. How is a character who has multiple character development paths with clear character development towards paragon or renegade (ME1) 'less interesting' than the same character having an inexplicable relapse to renegade (if paragon in ME1)  and no such clear character development (ME2)?

He even inexplicably stands in the middle of a room all but saying 'hey gunship, please shoot me!' despite taking cover sanely the rest of that mission, and can't even fix or change his own armour in ME2.
 
You have an interesting definition of 'better.'

[Nozybidaj]

Lord Nicholai wrote...

Just because its highly advanced, does that mean it must be from an ancient super-race? The latest smartphone seems to be pretty advanced, so it must be alien technology

/facepalm  Did we not play the same ME2 or did you miss the giant Terminator at the end of the game.  They showed us how Reapers are made.  I think it is safe to assume all the Reapers are made the same way.  If that is indeed the case there should have been alien slushie all over the Citadel, or did the random looters and thieves scrape up and dispose of the DNA of 100,000's of thousands beings of whatever race were used to make Soveriegn?  Not a single drop of goo could be found anywhere?  Really?

[Ryzaki]

Well. I'm technically playing ME1 and ME2 at the same time (I'll play ME1 one day then ME2 the next) I have to say though ME1 is clunky as hell. It really is it's just a lot more smoother in ME2 (though running out of clips for my SR and having to switch to a heavy pistol is rage inducing).

While ME2 does a lot of things right. (The graphics are a lot better for one thing) I don't know...it's just...ME1 has this epic feel to it. Like you're actually in space. ME2 just feels like you're traveling a through a bunch of cities, really, really small cities. With the exception of the bases and even that feels odd.

Yeah I know ME1's maps were recycled. So it's probably just me.  

But that's just like my opinion.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 25 octobre 2010 - 07:53 .

[Lord Nicholai]

Xeranx, the fact that we disagree on what the best action to take would be shows that its not impossible/wrong/stupid/illogical for the council to take the actions they did in ME2.

[Moiaussi]

Nozybidaj wrote...

/facepalm  Did we not play the same ME2 or did you miss the giant Terminator at the end of the game.  They showed us how Reapers are made.  I think it is safe to assume all the Reapers are made the same way.  If that is indeed the case there should have been alien slushie all over the Citadel, or did the random looters and thieves scrape up and dispose of the DNA of 100,000's of thousands beings of whatever race were used to make Soveriegn?  Not a single drop of goo could be found anywhere?  Really?

Come to think of it, where did EDI get prothean DNA for the baseline comparason with the Collectors? And since Vigil was only low on power, why hasn't anyone simply figured out how to feed energy into it?

[Ryzaki]

Moiaussi wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

/facepalm  Did we not play the same ME2 or did you miss the giant Terminator at the end of the game.  They showed us how Reapers are made.  I think it is safe to assume all the Reapers are made the same way.  If that is indeed the case there should have been alien slushie all over the Citadel, or did the random looters and thieves scrape up and dispose of the DNA of 100,000's of thousands beings of whatever race were used to make Soveriegn?  Not a single drop of goo could be found anywhere?  Really?

Come to think of it, where did EDI get prothean DNA for the baseline comparason with the Collectors? And since Vigil was only low on power, why hasn't anyone simply figured out how to feed energy into it?

Because everyone in the ME world only has a brain when Shep is in close proximity. 

Joking aside. I thought the protheans left plenty of genetic DNA around. 

And Vigil...I'd guess the council didn't really give a damn. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 25 octobre 2010 - 08:06 .