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[Terror_K]

Nightwriter wrote...

SithLordExarKun wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

So you figure that figuring out why people are being negative when ME1 discussions tended to be more positive is less important to them than their egos?

Noone likes to be told they made a mistake. That does not mean criticism should be avoided. And I don't really thing there is 'too much negativeness.' People are still hopeful about ME3. After ME1 people were in a 'god I hope it comes out soon!' mood. This time round they are still interested, but more on a 'we'll wait and see' basis.

There are no lynch mobs, merely concerned consumers.

Actually the way i see it, the people on the ME1 boards were alot less hostile than the current ones here and so far i see them not being hopeful at all for ME3 given that this is something they keep emphasizing on.

But I'm hopeful! I - I can be hopeful enough for like three people, at the very least!

You'll probably have to be hopeful for me, because I'm not that hopeful.

I do think that ME3 will probably be better than ME2, but I get the feeling that a lot of factors that annoyed me are just still going to be there, so I get the feeling that I'll still be annoyed by a lot of things and railing at BioWare for not changing them. That said,  I' d be amazingly forgiving if they merely got rid of many of the style and presentation factors that annoyed me and the gameplay was largely the same. The things that pull me out of the game and break immersion to me are far more frustrating than the gameplay issues.

The thing overall is, I'm not terribly hopeful mostly because of what we've just been discussing: BioWare's major absense from the community after ME2's release. Aside from the fact that I greatly enjoyed ME1, they at least hung around afterwards to discuss the game and improving it, and I was pretty hopeful then until shortly before E3 when they started going on and on about the combat and the worries about how strong an RPG this was going to be started to creep in. The point was, BioWare at least admitted ME1 was flawed where it was and talked to us about improving it. With ME2 they seem to have pulled a cover over their own eyes that reads "ME2 is Practically Perfect in Every Way" on the inside and that's pretty much it. They just fail to acknowledge the issues... heck, they've even demeaned and put down those who criticise them. After ME1 they had some humility and seemed humble... now it seems all those perfect reviews have made them believe their own hype and they have some kind of God complex or something.

[Nightwriter]

First, I have no idea why BioWare has been absent from the fan community and absolutely no way of finding out. So I won't try to speculate.

Second, pretty much everything that really bothered me about ME2 won't even be an issue in ME3.

1. My dissatisfactions with the story - this'll be the final game, it'll be a story explosion.
2. The Council holding the Idiot Ball - again, last installment, not a problem.
3. Characters being compartmentalized because of a severely nonlinear story - not a problem.
4. Dissastisfactions with the way they handled this Cerberus thing - not a problem.

I have no criticisms that apply to the trilogy as a whole, I just disagree with the story direction they went with ME2.

[Jebel Krong]

i'd add: getting rid of the 'mission complete' screens - do that and it will have an amazing impact on immersion.

edit: when did they 'demean' anyone with (valid) criticism?

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 02 novembre 2010 - 11:14 .

[SithLordExarKun]

Terror_K wrote...


Where is this then? I've been here since the start (and since the old boards) and while I recall devs being around and defending themselves against those who were concerned prior to ME2's release, I don't remember much being said at all after ME2 came out. If you can point me to a few old threads from February and/or March I'll be happy to eat my words, but I seriously don't recall devs in here actively defending what they did with ME2 and explaining the changes and whatnot  since the game came out.

Number one i am not going to do your homework for you. I DID see the developers defending their decision post ME2, but its people like you(when i say you, i say it in general) that keep relentlessly trying to destroy anything they attempt to conjure which obviously puts them off and makes them not bother with interacting with a community where even if they proved their case and made their point, won't shut the unhappy customers up nor please them. Its basically a hopeless battle which is why they don't care anymore.

Number 2, even if i did manage to find the threads buried in hundreds of pages, you are not going to eat your words. If you can contradict yourself by insisting you don't hijack ME2 praise threads and blatantly do it, how am i suppose to believe that you will back down your claims if i did manage to find the threads?

[Nightwriter]

Rofl. "It's people like YOU (when I say you I don't mean you) - "

Can't we all be friends? Can't we trade hugs and not hostility? Look, here's a picture of a bunny:

[Lumikki]

Terror_K wrote...

With ME2 they seem to have pulled a cover over their own eyes that reads "ME2 is Practically Perfect in Every Way" on the inside and that's pretty much it. They just fail to acknowledge the issues... heck, they've even demeaned and put down those who criticise them. After ME1 they had some humility and seemed humble... now it seems all those perfect reviews have made them believe their own hype and they have some kind of God complex or something.

This isn't really true. It's what you believe it to be, but truth is you don't know, you just assume, because it fits better your own goals. They have they own reasons. ME2 is still they newest game and they have to think it more from marketing point, what's good for the company. Not try to comfort some minor angry community people with they conserns.

You know they have sayed that mining planets did not work well in ME2, they also sayed they gonna add more customation in ME3 as player want and so on.. You know this as well I. What new information has this community been saying here? At least what I have readed, same stuff has be repeated 100's of pages, month after other. Do you really think that Bioware doesn't know this allready.

Modifié par Lumikki, 02 novembre 2010 - 02:21 .

[Terror_K]

SithLordExarKun wrote...

Number one i am not going to do your homework for you. I DID see the developers defending their decision post ME2, but its people like you(when i say you, i say it in general) that keep relentlessly trying to destroy anything they attempt to conjure which obviously puts them off and makes them not bother with interacting with a community where even if they proved their case and made their point, won't shut the unhappy customers up nor please them. Its basically a hopeless battle which is why they don't care anymore.

Number 2, even if i did manage to find the threads buried in hundreds of pages, you are not going to eat your words. If you can contradict yourself by insisting you don't hijack ME2 praise threads and blatantly do it, how am i suppose to believe that you will back down your claims if i did manage to find the threads?

Translation: I'm pulling stuff out of my ass and have no evidence at all.

Considering the very reason I'm still going on about ME2's faults after so long is because I haven't heard anything from BioWare directly here, I doubt it. If there was just some acknowledgement I'd be far less vocal. Beyond Christina's GDC presentation and vague comments in interviews now and then, that's about as close to recognising any complaints as we've got.

Re: BioWare's demeaning of those who have negative opinions, I recall several comments in interviews about how those who were displeased where basically called a minority not worth paying attention to, and them basically pointing to review scores as justification rather than any solid reasoning.

And sure... this stuff has been here for months. Whether BioWare actually reads it at all outside of Chris and the other community guys who don't actually make the game, let alone pay proper attention, I don't know.

[Jebel Krong]

well let's give them the benefit of the doubt, at least until some concrete me3 info is released, i mean you can't judge them on non-specific interview comments, without context. we might all be presently surprised when me3 is revealed and they do address a lot of the complaints.

[sinosleep]

How do you expect to illicit responses when posts like these are common place

Personally I just think Christina Norman isn't a terribly good lead gameplay designer, given how much of ME2's design I hate and I feel doesn't work.

I wouldn't bother replying to that either.

[Terror_K]

Well, perhaps I'd have a better opinion of her if she actually came in and discussed things rather than making snide comments in interviews and presentations about those who disagree with her methods. It's because of her comments (combined with her GDC presentation) that I came to that conclusion and said that.

[Nightwriter]

I like Christina Norman.

And on a side note, she should really do some voice acting, she has a very interesting voice.

Jebel Krong wrote...

well let's give them the benefit of the doubt, at least until some concrete me3 info is released, i mean you can't judge them on non-specific interview comments, without context. we might all be presently surprised when me3 is revealed and they do address a lot of the complaints.

*gravitates toward Jebel's positivity*

Yes. Yes this seems very reasonable. I like this. I think we should do this. This is the kind of thing I like to hear.

[Siegdrifa]

sinosleep wrote...

How do you expect to illicit responses when posts like these are common place

Personally I just think Christina Norman isn't a terribly good lead gameplay designer, given how much of ME2's design I hate and I feel doesn't work.

I wouldn't bother replying to that either.

She and her team made a great job on ME2, not perfect certainly, not what you wanted to see mostly, but the way it works is like a well oiled machine.

So, ME universe apart, for the game design ability they (Christina and all the staff of Bioware working on game designe) delivered a fine pieces of quality and well made game designe.
Not the most complex, not the most créative, but definitly well exploited.

I'm sure they will use this fine base to make ME3 game design a litlle more complex while keeping this level of coherence.

(making a good game design have nothing to do with how many power, option and customisation you do, the higher the number is is not a signe of a good complex game designe, this is how you use it that count the most).

Modifié par Siegdrifa, 02 novembre 2010 - 02:10 .

[Fiery Phoenix]

Night, thanks for that bunny. Picture has been saved.

On-topic, I like to believe that the developers are at least reading and viewing the forums. I don't necessarily want them to discuss and engage us, but I want to be sure that they view the forums on a regular basis and are not missing out on all the feedback. The only two developers who have actually come on here and taken notes since ME2's release are Christina Norman and Dusty Everman. The former, for example, made a thread asking what we didn't like about heavy weapons and whether we had suggestions regarding them (this was, I believe, in mid August); the latter participated in a thread about the Normandy SR2 and asked us for our overall opinion on the ship and whether we had any ideas or suggestions (this was, I think, sometime in early July). I took part in both of those threads and presented my ideas happily, as well as thanked Christina and Dusty for their attention.

Other than that, we've seen nothing. Literally, nothing.

Also, don't get your hopes up, people. ME3 won't be announced until DA2 launches. And even then, it probably won't be announced immediately thereafter. If I had to guess, I'd say ME3 will be announced around E3, which is usually mid June. Until then, we'll probably just keep beating this dead horse.

Modifié par FieryPhoenix7, 02 novembre 2010 - 03:00 .

[Nightwriter]

Well I do love bunnies. Sometimes everyone needs to remind everyone else we all love bunnies, y'know.

And actually, Jesse Houston posted in the Gameplay vs. Story thread a few days ago.

... Okay, well, it wasn't much, I think he said like five words... but I appreciated those five words! Immensely! He didn't even realize it! But it was like a ray of sunshine in a dark, dark world...

And on a side note, I'd like to say I probably wouldn't even notice the dev traffic (or lack thereof) we get through here if the DA2 forums didn't get such an astonishingly large amount of dev traffic.

So ME team, feel free to go over to the DA team and spit in their coffee for spoiling everyone with their awesome comments.

Oh and while you're there tell Sheryl Chee Isabela is awesome.

[Iakus]

Jebel Krong wrote...

i'd add: getting rid of the 'mission complete' screens - do that and it will have an amazing impact on immersion.

edit: when did they 'demean' anyone with (valid) criticism?

http://www.computera...e.php?id=258534

Specifically (And this is Casey Hudon here):

"If you define an RPG as a game where you equip your hero by sifting through an inventory of hundreds of miscellaneous items and spend hours fiddling with numerical statistics, then Mass Effect 2 isn't one," he added.

Which pretty much paints all of us "haters" witha single brush.  Ignoring those of us who were unhappy with the lack of continuity with ME 1, or the lack of interaction betweeen and amongst the companions, the railroading plot, and so on.  Nope, all we want is turn-based combat and to carry dozens of suits of armor and hundreds of shotguns.

[Iakus]

Nightwriter wrote...

1. My dissatisfactions with the story - this'll be the final game, it'll be a story explosion.

I'm up in the air on that.  After the sudden plot and continuity shifts between ME 1 and ME 2, and the abrupt ending to ME 2, I have no idea where the story's going. 

2. The Council holding the Idiot Ball - again, last installment, not a problem.

I dunno.  Given what was done to them in ME2, I can totally see them going "Ah, yes, 'Reapers...' while Harbringer is carving his name into the side of the Citadel with a particle beam.

3. Characters being compartmentalized because of a severely nonlinear story - not a problem.

Call me cautiously optomistic on this one

4. Dissastisfactions with the way they handled this Cerberus thing - not a problem.

Eh, I wasn't wild about it.   I wasn't opposed to having to work with Cerberus.   But they bent over too far backwards to make Cerberus look like nice guys and not enough to make it look like there was no other option.  I can see the "nice guy" thing continuing into ME 3

Modifié par iakus, 02 novembre 2010 - 04:16 .

[Iakus]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

Night, thanks for that bunny. Picture has been saved.

On-topic, I like to believe that the developers are at least reading and viewing the forums. I don't necessarily want them to discuss and engage us, but I want to be sure that they view the forums on a regular basis and are not missing out on all the feedback. The only two developers who have actually come on here and taken notes since ME2's release are Christina Norman and Dusty Everman. The former, for example, made a thread asking what we didn't like about heavy weapons and whether we had suggestions regarding them (this was, I believe, in mid August); the latter participated in a thread about the Normandy SR2 and asked us for our overall opinion on the ship and whether we had any ideas or suggestions (this was, I think, sometime in early July). I took part in both of those threads and presented my ideas happily, as well as thanked Christina and Dusty for their attention.

Other than that, we've seen nothing. Literally, nothing. 

I remember those posts now.  I responded too.  And I was on my best behavior!

[Jebel Krong]

iakus wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

i'd add: getting rid of the 'mission complete' screens - do that and it will have an amazing impact on immersion.

edit: when did they 'demean' anyone with (valid) criticism?

http://www.computera...e.php?id=258534

Specifically (And this is Casey Hudon here):

"If you define an RPG as a game where you equip your hero by sifting through an inventory of hundreds of miscellaneous items and spend hours fiddling with numerical statistics, then Mass Effect 2 isn't one," he added.

Which pretty much paints all of us "haters" witha single brush.  Ignoring those of us who were unhappy with the lack of continuity with ME 1, or the lack of interaction between and amongst the companions, the railroading plot, and so on.  Nope, all we want is turn-based combat and to carry dozens of suits of armor and hundreds of shotguns.

no it doesn't, he's just defining what the mass effect style 'rpg' bit is - if you interpret that as such that is up to you: there aren't any statistics to juggle, and the inventory management has been cut down significantly (too far for some) - the mass effect series has always been more about the story/universe/characters/cinematic presentation and combat*, not stats and minutiae.

*not necc. in that order.

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 02 novembre 2010 - 04:19 .

[Nightwriter]

iakus wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

1. My dissatisfactions with the story - this'll be the final game, it'll be a story explosion.

I'm up in the air on that.  After the sudden plot and continuity shifts between ME 1 and ME 2, and the abrupt ending to ME 2, I have no idea where the story's going. 

2. The Council holding the Idiot Ball - again, last installment, not a problem.

I dunno.  Given what was done to them in ME2, I can totally see them going "Ah, yes, 'Reapers...' while Harbringer is carving his name into the side of the Citadel with a particle beam.

3. Characters being compartmentalized because of a severely nonlinear story - not a problem.

Call me cautiously optomistic on this one

4. Dissastisfactions with the way they handled this Cerberus thing - not a problem.

Eh, I wasn't wild about it.   I wasn't opposed to having to work with Cerberus.   But they bent over too far backwards to make Cerberus look like nice guys and not enough to make it look like there was no other option.  I can see the "nice guy" thing continuing into ME 3

Well the point is ME3 is the last installment and will bring closure. Part of me thinks all these issues got treated the way they did because ME2 had to provide more content without providing closure, and didn't quite know how.

In ME3 that problem is gone, right?

And I didn't really feel like Cerberus was suddenly the nice guy, I just feel like my whole induction into their group was sort of rushed. I also don't like what lengths they went to in order to make the Cerberus plotline work.

[Googlesaurus]

iakus wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

i'd add: getting rid of the 'mission complete' screens - do that and it will have an amazing impact on immersion.

edit: when did they 'demean' anyone with (valid) criticism?

http://www.computera...e.php?id=258534

Specifically (And this is Casey Hudon here):

"If you define an RPG as a game where you equip your hero by sifting through an inventory of hundreds of miscellaneous items and spend hours fiddling with numerical statistics, then Mass Effect 2 isn't one," he added.

Which pretty much paints all of us "haters" witha single brush.  Ignoring those of us who were unhappy with the lack of continuity with ME 1, or the lack of interaction betweeen and amongst the companions, the railroading plot, and so on.  Nope, all we want is turn-based combat and to carry dozens of suits of armor and hundreds of shotguns.

The quote directly after that one troubles me. I understand taking a position of strength in terms of selling your product, but I could make a fair case against any of those claims without too much effort. 

Modifié par Googlesaurus, 02 novembre 2010 - 04:52 .

[Moiaussi]

SithLordExarKun wrote...

Actually the way i see it, the people on the ME1 boards were alot less hostile than the current ones here and so far i see them not being hopeful at all for ME3 given that this is something they keep emphasizing on.

I think the worst criticisms I remember from the ME1 boards were how badly the Mako handled and from some that combat was too easy. Neither seemed to be a major criticism, and the criticism regarding the Mako should have seemed pretty obvious. At any rate, the criticisms were all on the mechanics. The writing was pretty much universally praised. We also didn't have the books until after, and there were no mass effect comics. The books, comics, and planned movie were all the result of praise for the writing.

In ME2 the criticism is pretty much entirely regarding the writing. It is directed at a completely different division of  the creation process. The criticisms are also more fundamental.

Is anyone still looking forward to a mass effect movie as much after ME2 as they were after ME1?

Bioware (especially the writing staff)  can ignore the criticism, but they do have to remember where the side market dollars (books, movie, etc) come from.

[glacier1701]

 I dont follow all ME forum threads so am surprised that there were 2 threads that came up which I never knew about. Considering what they were about they could have done with being posted in the notice area as well. However that still means that we really have not seen much from anyone else. I do really think that they should be coming in and looking around and perhaps making a post or two as part of their job. They do not have to follow everything but at least be familiar with what is being said as we are supposedly in that period where they are looking to the forums for what people are saying that might need to be changed/tweaked. Why I say it should be part of their job is that while there is always the chance that they'll continually run into negativity it not guaranteed.

If they feel that these boards are harsh then they really should go over to the EvE forums. Quite literally for the last 5 months CCP was bashed mercilessly yet it did have the effect intended. CCP still has problems but posting in threads, writing blogs and getting those blogs front page and in general trying to keep a flow of info to the players a lot of the negativity has gone in the last 4 weeks or so. While there is still a long road to go for CCP their CEO actually made a presentation recently where he stated " We like it when the players call ******** about something we did. It means we did not do our job."  While he perhaps had no choice but to say that it is refreshing it that the company response has been a flood of info about the game ranging from the simple to ones full of technobabble (which many EvE players understood and commented on leading in one case to a potential solution to a problem they had). While not giving away confidential info at the very least we've been able to point out where things did not work.

 The ME team can learn from that. Its all well and good hearing what people you work with think about stuff you do but in the end they are not the ones who have to pay out $60 for the game. Posting on the boards now will at least give you some idea of how the people who are potential customers think and maybe a slight change makes that ok idea into something great and if they had not posted they would not have got the inspiration for that change. If they feel that reviews are all they need then perhaps they should read this. They may be good to the company but that does not mean that the customer believes them.

[Xeranx]

glacier1701 wrote...


 I dont follow all ME forum threads so am surprised that there were 2 threads that came up which I never knew about. Considering what they were about they could have done with being posted in the notice area as well. However that still means that we really have not seen much from anyone else. I do really think that they should be coming in and looking around and perhaps making a post or two as part of their job. They do not have to follow everything but at least be familiar with what is being said as we are supposedly in that period where they are looking to the forums for what people are saying that might need to be changed/tweaked. Why I say it should be part of their job is that while there is always the chance that they'll continually run into negativity it not guaranteed.

If they feel that these boards are harsh then they really should go over to the EvE forums. Quite literally for the last 5 months CCP was bashed mercilessly yet it did have the effect intended. CCP still has problems but posting in threads, writing blogs and getting those blogs front page and in general trying to keep a flow of info to the players a lot of the negativity has gone in the last 4 weeks or so. While there is still a long road to go for CCP their CEO actually made a presentation recently where he stated " We like it when the players call ******** about something we did. It means we did not do our job."  While he perhaps had no choice but to say that it is refreshing it that the company response has been a flood of info about the game ranging from the simple to ones full of technobabble (which many EvE players understood and commented on leading in one case to a potential solution to a problem they had). While not giving away confidential info at the very least we've been able to point out where things did not work.

 The ME team can learn from that. Its all well and good hearing what people you work with think about stuff you do but in the end they are not the ones who have to pay out $60 for the game. Posting on the boards now will at least give you some idea of how the people who are potential customers think and maybe a slight change makes that ok idea into something great and if they had not posted they would not have got the inspiration for that change. If they feel that reviews are all they need then perhaps they should read this. They may be good to the company but that does not mean that the customer believes them.

Thanks for that Glacier.  I saved that page.

[Terror_K]

Moiaussi wrote...

We also didn't have the books until after, and there were no mass effect comics. The books, comics, and planned movie were all the result of praise for the writing.

Actually Revelation was released before the game was. So, in a sense, Mass Effect started as a novel.

[Moiaussi]

Terror_K wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

We also didn't have the books until after, and there were no mass effect comics. The books, comics, and planned movie were all the result of praise for the writing.

Actually Revelation was released before the game was. So, in a sense, Mass Effect started as a novel.

Which popularized which, though? I don't recall many on the boards back then saying "I read the book and just had to play the game."

By the way, what awards did ME1 earn pre-release? I can't find any references to any other cover for Revelation other than the one saying it is the 'prequel to the award winning video game from bioware'

Modifié par Moiaussi, 02 novembre 2010 - 11:18 .