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Disappointment With Mass Effect 2? An Open Discussion. Volume 2


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#1351
Nightwriter

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RiouHotaru wrote...

I'll agree that having some scenes of them working together and coming together would make sense, but then you also have to realize that many of them likely have personal reasons to steer clear of others.  For example, Jack definitely wouldn't get along with most folks besides Grunt, and in his case they'd likely try to kill each other just for kicks.  Zaeed and Samara would likely not get along socially either.


Now, do you see how you're considering how each of them would interact with each other?

That's enough to make my mouth water. That's what I craved, just for them to interact and show an awareness of each other. Them "coming together as a team" is just something that would be nice to find at the end of that road, but it's not my main desire. My main desire is just to see them acknowledge each other, because of how fascinating it would be.

97% of my complaints with ME2's story would totally evaporate if they just gave me a squad that wasn't so compartmentalized - a squad that interacted a la DA:O.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 06 novembre 2010 - 03:56 .


#1352
Iakus

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[quote]Il Divo wrote...

[quote]iakus wrote...

Or, take option 3:

The geth have crossed the Perseus Veil for the first time in 300 years, led by a ginormous dreadnaught.  They trashed the Citadel fleet, nearly/did kill the Council, and it was only with the aid of the Allance fleet (which also got badly mauled) that they were driven back.  [/quote]

Here's the problem though: you have not made any positive assertion for why anyone, Council or otherwise, should believe in the Reapers. War on the Geth? Possibly. But as per Anderson, the attack on the Citadel hit hard, for the military and the economy. Preparing a fleet large enough to take on however many Geth are located beyond the Veil? I'm not saying it shouldn't happen, but Anderson also tells us that it will take at least another five years to finish rebuilding the Citadel. That doesn't say to me that things are going so well as to launch a war into a region of space we have no knowledge of, at least at the current time.   [/quote]

Exactly.  If the Council is afraid of starting a panic, they don't have to tell anyone about the Reapers yet.  There's already one advanced enemy out there they can keep the people focused on while preparing to fight the real bad guys.  The Council had already demonstrated thta they believed in the Reapers by the end of ME 1.  I'm showing there's no real reason to deny it to Shepard just because they "don't want to cause a panic"

[quote]
Not entirely true. If you go back and speak to Anderson on the Citadel, the Council did make a war effort to remove all remaining Geth from Citadel space. As of Shepard's return, Anderson claims it's no longer even a war, more like 'clean up' with barely any Geth left. The Council also conceded from the start that Saren was probably using the Reapers to manipulate the Geth into following him. If this is the case, then with Saren dead we can assume the Geth threat to have died with him, minus whatever are still located in Citadel space. [/quote]

If the Council had replaced "Saren" with "Sovereign" I could actually buy into their logic.  With SOvereign dead, teh dark space relay stays closed, and teh Reaper threat goes away.

[quote]
[quote]
And on the side, 1) fund research into archaeological digs, particularly pertaining to Prothean or preProthean technology.  2) Reach out to other interstellar governments with treaties and alliances.  3) And oh, yes, find out what size batteries Vigil takes [/quote]

1) This isn't anything new though. The Council, human or otherwise, has always been interested in recovering 'Prothean' technology and do often get their hands on whatever archaeological digs they can find. They've already been funding research, though I would say doing this + building a new fleet + reparations from the attack sounds quite expensive.[/quote]

Right, but do it more.  Somehow I doubt the Council extensively intervierwed Liara about Shepard's visions, Vigil's warnings, or Liara's own theories. 

[quote]
2) What interstellar governments? Council/associate-Council races aside, all that's really left are the Quarians and the Krogan. Unless you want to talk about trying diplomatic relations with the Terminus Systems...[/quote]

Quarians and krogan are two.  There's also the batarians, the Terminus System governments, the various merc groups (the Blue Suns, Eclipse, and Blood Pack appear to be practically standing armies on their own).  PLus who knows how many other non-Council races are out there that simply haven't been mentioned yet? 

[quote]
3) Admittedly a good idea, presupposing that the Council has enough interest to reactivate Vigil, let alone being possible. But I doubt they would go into this with the idea that Vigil has key information about the Reapers and more in the hope of discovering new Prothean technology. [/quote]

Vigil is a Prothean VI.  Even without the Reaper threat, that should have every archaeologist and engineer in Council space unable to speak for all the drool they're producing.  And it's functional!  It just needs a power supply!  And it's operating a Prothean research base!  Not the cast-offs left behind for other races to find, but top of the line technology.

[quote]
Granted these are likely to be slow to get results, but it would be a start.  As it is, the fleets aren't even back up to pre-Battle of the Citadel strength. [/quote]

The reasons for which, to my knowledge, have not been given. If the reason is that they haven't had enough time to recover, how can you expect them to launch a full scale war into the veil?[/quote]

I'm not.  I'm expecting them to use the possibility (and until the discovery of teh true/heretic geth split, a very real possibility) as a reason to build up and expand their military for the coming war against the Reapers.  If the Council doesn't want to cause a panic by revealing the truth about the Reapers, then use the geth attack as a reason.  But completely denying it, especially to Shepard's face, makes them look like idots.

[quote]
I'd still say convincing Tali (who is close to Shepard) or Samara (who as a Justicar would be inclined by nature to help) is still a more modest appraisal of his abilities than saying Shepard should be able to convince nations to bow down before him. Posted Image[/quote]

To keep this post from getting any longer than it already is, I'll just say that he's able to convince several of his squadmates awfully easily.  Particularly those less inclined to help others, or have other things to do.

[quote]
Hmm, missing a few details, though still humorous. Shepard would also have to go about telling them that they'd have to somehow send forces into darkspace to fight a race of God machines which no one has ever heard of. Like I said, not enough intimidate points. Posted Image [/quote]

Good thing they have a dark space relay Posted Image.  Though that's more of a long-term problem.  For right now, gotta get the weapons to wage the war to begin with.

#1353
Iakus

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Nightwriter wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

I'll agree that having some scenes of them working together and coming together would make sense, but then you also have to realize that many of them likely have personal reasons to steer clear of others.  For example, Jack definitely wouldn't get along with most folks besides Grunt, and in his case they'd likely try to kill each other just for kicks.  Zaeed and Samara would likely not get along socially either.


Now, do you see how you're considering how each of them would interact with each other?

That's enough to make my mouth water. That's what I craved, just for them to interact and show an awareness of each other. Them "coming together as a team" is just something that would be nice to find at the end of that road, but it's not my main desire. My main desire is just to see them acknowledge each other, because of how fascinating it would be.

97% of my complaints with ME2's story would totally evaporate if they just gave me a squad that wasn't so compartmentalized - a squad that interacted a la DA:O.



Yeah, if the game's about the charaacters, make the game about the characters.

I mean, how cool would it have been if, every once in a while, when you go into Zaed's compartment, you find Grunt sitting there too, listening to Zaed's war stories?

If Jack's loyalty mission was changed into a more "My Fair Lady" type story where she's trying to fit into society.  Maybe have  a scene where Shepard's escorting her through the Normandy and she's trying to actually talk to the crew, keeping her profanities to a minimum (With Engineer Donnelly so flabbergasted he blurts out something inappropriate, hunches his shoulders and mutters "pleasedontkillme")

If Samara and Garrus in in the squad together, they talk about past activities, with Samara clearly trying to decide if this turian vigilante needs killing

Jacob trying to get under Thane's skin.  Thane praying for patience

Miranda with Jack or Tali trading insuilts (particularly of one is the LI)

Morinth hitting on...everyone (possibly including Legion, much to his bemusement)

The possibilites go on and on.  Ah, wasted potential.  Posted Image

#1354
Moiaussi

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Lumikki wrote...

I never sayed my opinions to be majority, You make that assumptions by you self. I was talking what ever opinion anyone have, if it doesn't have majority support, it's lost cause. This isn't about me and you, this is about everyone.


Yes it is about everyone. That does not invalidate complaints, since the majority might well agree with any given complaint. Starting to think you are running for Turian Councellor...

#1355
Lumikki

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Moiaussi wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

I never sayed my opinions to be majority, You make that assumptions by you self. I was talking what ever opinion anyone have, if it doesn't have majority support, it's lost cause. This isn't about me and you, this is about everyone.


Yes it is about everyone. That does not invalidate complaints, since the majority might well agree with any given complaint.

That's true.  My point, don't think that complain is supported by majority, if it also get alot of disagreements. Meaning don't overlook people who disagree with your complains and still continue thinking it's supported by majority, because it's fiting better what you want.

Modifié par Lumikki, 07 novembre 2010 - 10:33 .


#1356
Moiaussi

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Lumikki wrote...

That's true.  My point, don't think that complain is supported by majority, if it also get alot of disagreements. Meaning don't overlook people who disagree with your complains and still continue thinking it's supported by majority, because it's fiting better what you want.


Hence my always giving reasons why I don't like any given aspect of the game, or for that matter, why I like other aspects.

Neither of us can do anything other than post our opinions.

#1357
Nightwriter

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iakus wrote...

Yeah, if the game's about the charaacters, make the game about the characters.

I mean, how cool would it have been if, every once in a while, when you go into Zaed's compartment, you find Grunt sitting there too, listening to Zaed's war stories?

If Jack's loyalty mission was changed into a more "My Fair Lady" type story where she's trying to fit into society.  Maybe have  a scene where Shepard's escorting her through the Normandy and she's trying to actually talk to the crew, keeping her profanities to a minimum (With Engineer Donnelly so flabbergasted he blurts out something inappropriate, hunches his shoulders and mutters "pleasedontkillme")

If Samara and Garrus in in the squad together, they talk about past activities, with Samara clearly trying to decide if this turian vigilante needs killing

Jacob trying to get under Thane's skin.  Thane praying for patience

Miranda with Jack or Tali trading insuilts (particularly of one is the LI)

Morinth hitting on...everyone (possibly including Legion, much to his bemusement)

The possibilites go on and on.  Ah, wasted potential.  Posted Image


:( x 2.

There really is no price on character interaction. None. If they had set up interesting inter-character stories and relationships I wouldn't have even cared about the story. The game would've been carried by the characters and their interactions alone.

#1358
Babli

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iakus wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

I'll agree that having some scenes of them working together and coming together would make sense, but then you also have to realize that many of them likely have personal reasons to steer clear of others.  For example, Jack definitely wouldn't get along with most folks besides Grunt, and in his case they'd likely try to kill each other just for kicks.  Zaeed and Samara would likely not get along socially either.


Now, do you see how you're considering how each of them would interact with each other?

That's enough to make my mouth water. That's what I craved, just for them to interact and show an awareness of each other. Them "coming together as a team" is just something that would be nice to find at the end of that road, but it's not my main desire. My main desire is just to see them acknowledge each other, because of how fascinating it would be.

97% of my complaints with ME2's story would totally evaporate if they just gave me a squad that wasn't so compartmentalized - a squad that interacted a la DA:O.



Yeah, if the game's about the charaacters, make the game about the characters.

I mean, how cool would it have been if, every once in a while, when you go into Zaed's compartment, you find Grunt sitting there too, listening to Zaed's war stories?

If Jack's loyalty mission was changed into a more "My Fair Lady" type story where she's trying to fit into society.  Maybe have  a scene where Shepard's escorting her through the Normandy and she's trying to actually talk to the crew, keeping her profanities to a minimum (With Engineer Donnelly so flabbergasted he blurts out something inappropriate, hunches his shoulders and mutters "pleasedontkillme")

If Samara and Garrus in in the squad together, they talk about past activities, with Samara clearly trying to decide if this turian vigilante needs killing

Jacob trying to get under Thane's skin.  Thane praying for patience

Miranda with Jack or Tali trading insuilts (particularly of one is the LI)

Morinth hitting on...everyone (possibly including Legion, much to his bemusement)

The possibilites go on and on.  Ah, wasted potential.  Posted Image

Man... you just made me sad. Since I started read this topic, I realized how much wasted potential the game really has...too much.

#1359
AntiChri5

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ME 2's number one flaw was/is the lack of character interaction.

#1360
tonnactus

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There was more squad banter even between loghain and wynne then in this so called sequel and "character driven" game.

Modifié par tonnactus, 07 novembre 2010 - 10:04 .


#1361
AdmiralCheez

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Considering how wowed I was after my first playthrough, I was not disappointed. However, after going through it again, I began to notice a few things that annoyed me:



1.) It lacked the epic scale of ME1. I felt the levels were too small and confined.

2.) As annoying as the Mako and inventory system were, I would rather they be improved than nuked altogether.

3.) CAN IT WAIT FOR A BIT? I'M IN THE MIDDLE OF SOME CALIBRATIONS.

4.) The booby squad needs to learn to wear REAL armor in hazardous environments.

5.) I miss Hackett. I know he has no place in ME2 since you're in cahoots with Cerberus, but I want to hear from him again in ME3.



Changes that I was neutral on:



1.) Simplified level-up system. It was much easier to manage, and required more thought as to how you wanted to build your team. I still wish there was a bit more choice involved.

2.) I missed the old EXP system a bit, but considering the changes made to the level-up system, it wasn't a very big deal.

3.) Surprisingly, there are worse things than planet scanning.

4.) I missed armor/weapon mods, and was sad to part with grenades, but ammo powers and heavy weapons made up for it. Ooh, do I LOVE my heavy weapons.

5.) The process of getting each squad member loyal was a bit repetitive, but the unique design and depth of each mission more than made up for it.

6.) While the story was weaker, it was more personal. A fair trade, but now that we've spent a whole game on character development, let's switch back to ME1's plot structure, with perhaps a few personal diversions for any new crewmembers we happen to pick up in ME3.

7.) I didn't mind that combat was faster-paced and more brutal, but enough with the rooms full of chest-high boxes.

8.) While the lack of expansive hub-worlds was annoying, I'm glad that I wasn't asked by pretty much every person I walked by to do their grocery shopping for them.

9.) There wasn't as much carry-over from my actions in ME1 as I would have liked, but I understand that it's hard to program that stuff with so many variables, so the developers get a pass. I want to see an improvement in ME3, though.

10.) Overheat vs. Thermal Clips: they both worked, in my opinion. While the overheat mechanism was far more unique, it was a bit of a pain sometimes, and the scarcity of ammo forced you to be more careful with where you placed your shots.



Finally, there were a few things I really liked:



1.) Everything from the Omega 4 relay onward was amazing.

2.) The entire story seemed to move more quickly.

3.) Each of the combat classes became more unique in their playstyles, making it worth trying out each class.

4.) The graphics were greatly improved, but this goes without saying.

5.) The changes in Garrus' and Tali's characters really made me feel like two years had passed without compromising who they were in ME1. They grew up so fast!

6.) Sniper rifles no longer swung all over the place and were much easier to use.

7.) ZOMG HAVE YOU PLAYED LAIR OF THE SHADOW BROKER YET?



Thus, despite all its flaws, ME2 was incredible. Even if it made me want to beat my head into the wall in certain places, I am still very glad I picked it up.

#1362
Iakus

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AdmiralCheez wrote...

7.) ZOMG HAVE YOU PLAYED LAIR OF THE SHADOW BROKER YET?

Thus, despite all its flaws, ME2 was incredible. Even if it made me want to beat my head into the wall in certain places, I am still very glad I picked it up.


ME 2 had me banging my head pretty much since...oh about the time Shepard diesPosted Image  But yeah LOTSB is my big hope for ME 3.  It contained so much that ME 2 lacked:  party banter (even if it was strictly between Shepard and Liara)  interesting challenges that were more than simple corridor runs, Actual links between ME 1 and ME 2 as well as bridging to ME 3.  And those dossiers added more to the squad's personality development than all the time they spend on the Normandy.

It's like the Shadow Broker DLC was the actual game and ME 2 was the soulless  DLC.

#1363
Nightwriter

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Ha. Last post in on the "ME2 sucked as a middle chapter" thread. Always satisfying.

iakus, have you considered we may have been expecting too much, or that we had incorrect expectations? What if we did? Maybe I was just wrong and I'm not seeing it in the right way.

#1364
Sursion

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If Lair of the Shadow Broker was insight into Mass Effect 3, It's going to be 10x more epic then Mass Effect 2.

#1365
Iakus

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Nightwriter wrote...

Ha. Last post in on the "ME2 sucked as a middle chapter" thread. Always satisfying.

iakus, have you considered we may have been expecting too much, or that we had incorrect expectations? What if we did? Maybe I was just wrong and I'm not seeing it in the right way.


Perish the thought we get more than one thread pointing out the weaknesses of the game Posted Image

Anyway, that was actually my first thought after I finished ME 2 for the first time.  "Maybe it was rose colored glasses"  Or perhaps I was missing something.  That's why I started a fresh game and ran through ME 1 followed by ME 2.  Nope.  The difference is striking.

For one thing, I may never forgive Bioware for the personal terminal and its neverending supply of email.

As to it being a poor sequel, I certainly stand by it.  It should have been possible to create a sequel that didn't require a) Shepard to die  B) The Council to turn into a bunch of idiots and c) Shepard's old allies to turn unexpectedly cold and hostile.  I ended up feeling like the writers had the story they wanted but had to bang the puzzle pieces with a hammer to make them fit into the story they arleady told.  It simply didn't flow naturally.

Now as to the story itself:

I admit that creating a "character-centric" story would not have been my first choice as a sequel.  But I've seen it done well before.  I could deal with that part. 

The problem here is that character development takes place almost entirely within the loyalty missions.  Now the loyalty missions are mostly done well (Grunt's is kinda lame.  Jacob's had continuity problems)  Bioware has a long history of creating "personal missions" in their games, from Dragon Age to Baldur's Gate.  And it's a good thing.  It lets us see what made these characters into the people they are.  We get to step into their world and maybe make better (or worse).  Mass Effect 2 is no different.

That's the problem.

These Loyalty Missions are really no different thatn the "personal mission" sidequests from previous games.  Notice the emphasis.  However nice they are, however they get classified in the journal, they're still sidequests.  By themselves, they cannot carry a game.  Personal missions show something of what the character was.  Interaction and banter show us how the character is now.   Yet this "character-centric" game is expected to get by with that one mission and little else.  Even games from a decade ago like Baldur's Gate had interaction.  In ME 2, most of the character's personality is what kind of ammo powers they have.

If the game was like Jade Empire and only allowed one companion, it might not have been so obvious.  Or if it had a stronger plot which focused our attention on the Collectors, we might have forgiven the lack of characterization.  But no, they focused the spotlight on the characters, and gave us a bunch of colorful, yet isolated squadmates.  Like a box of crayons, each in their own little holder.

#1366
Iakus

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@Nitewriter

As to your statement inteh other thread that ME 2 was:

 "A hodgepodge of different experiences that aren't really connected or explained very well, admittedly, but each individual piece of the experience was very good and I enjoyed the storytelling. "

That's actually not a bad decsriton of the game.  All thsoe missions weren't really bad, for the most part.  I might have bought a game that focused on Thane, or Samara, or even Miranda (As long as these characters actually put some clothes on) 

The problem is none of these were the focus.  When we finish Thane's mission, if we go "What does that mean for the big picture?" we have nothing to point to except the "don't kill me" flag.  Sure it might have been a fun mission, but overall what was it but a momentary diversion?  How does this get you any closer to understanding the Collectors, or the Reapers?  I found myself asking that question over and over with no answer besides "momentary diversion, "don't kill me" flag"  with the overall story no closer to being advanced.

#1367
Lumikki

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Nightwriter wrote...

iakus wrote...

Yeah, if the game's about the charaacters, make the game about the characters.

I mean, how cool would it have been if, every once in a while, when you go into Zaed's compartment, you find Grunt sitting there too, listening to Zaed's war stories?

If Jack's loyalty mission was changed into a more "My Fair Lady" type story where she's trying to fit into society.  Maybe have  a scene where Shepard's escorting her through the Normandy and she's trying to actually talk to the crew, keeping her profanities to a minimum (With Engineer Donnelly so flabbergasted he blurts out something inappropriate, hunches his shoulders and mutters "pleasedontkillme")

If Samara and Garrus in in the squad together, they talk about past activities, with Samara clearly trying to decide if this turian vigilante needs killing

Jacob trying to get under Thane's skin.  Thane praying for patience

Miranda with Jack or Tali trading insuilts (particularly of one is the LI)

Morinth hitting on...everyone (possibly including Legion, much to his bemusement)

The possibilites go on and on.  Ah, wasted potential.  Posted Image


:( x 2.

There really is no price on character interaction. None. If they had set up interesting inter-character stories and relationships I wouldn't have even cared about the story. The game would've been carried by the characters and their interactions alone.

Interesting.

This is not what I would ever want, because it's phony, like over emotional behaviors. In reality people are not that emotional or interesting. I want more real life like people, not this over emotional acting to increase players interest. Meaning there is different between increase game enviroment feel more alive and over do it with unrealistic stuff.

It's little like DA2 is doing the graphics, the "cool" affect are over done there, the problem is that it doesn't feel anymore right. It's over done, exaggerated. The Normandy crew and squad members are not like family where everyone is close to each others, they just do they jobs.

My point is, I don't want, what you two seem to want, because it makes my gameplay experience worst. I do agree little bit more would be nice, more like they work related talk, but not like suggested here, it's just over done. Normal people don't behave that way, mostly people are very booring. Having so many not normal people in same place, makes hole situation unrealistic, extreme, phony.

Modifié par Lumikki, 08 novembre 2010 - 08:02 .


#1368
Jebel Krong

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Nightwriter wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

I'll agree that having some scenes of them working together and coming together would make sense, but then you also have to realize that many of them likely have personal reasons to steer clear of others.  For example, Jack definitely wouldn't get along with most folks besides Grunt, and in his case they'd likely try to kill each other just for kicks.  Zaeed and Samara would likely not get along socially either.


Now, do you see how you're considering how each of them would interact with each other?

That's enough to make my mouth water. That's what I craved, just for them to interact and show an awareness of each other. Them "coming together as a team" is just something that would be nice to find at the end of that road, but it's not my main desire. My main desire is just to see them acknowledge each other, because of how fascinating it would be.

97% of my complaints with ME2's story would totally evaporate if they just gave me a squad that wasn't so compartmentalized - a squad that interacted a la DA:O.


did the party banter in me1? answer: no more than in me2, so in that respect, yes, you were expecting too much. it would have been nice, but is it a game-breaking disappointment? - no, because it wasn't in the first i don't expect it in the second.

a lot of you talk about this big "disconnect" between me1/me2 and i'm sorry i just don't see it - overall they are so similar in tone/style/design etc it is clear one follows the other. sure some things have changed, for better and worse in some cases, but the disconnect is really in your minds when you consider the entire experience.

#1369
Terror_K

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The party would talk on elevators, each party member would have 2-3 things to say about each major location, they would comment more during missions, both main ones and on sidequests. Was it much more? No... but it made the difference.

#1370
Lunatic LK47

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Terror_K wrote...

The party would talk on elevators, each party member would have 2-3 things to say about each major location, they would comment more during missions, both main ones and on sidequests. Was it much more? No... but it made the difference.


Uh, except the elevator conversations become rarer after each completed side mission. By the time I'm done with them, the squadmates are mute in their entirety.

#1371
Il Divo

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iakus wrote...

Exactly.  If the Council is afraid of starting a panic, they don't have to tell anyone about the Reapers yet.  There's already one advanced enemy out there they can keep the people focused on while preparing to fight the real bad guys.  The Council had already demonstrated that they believed in the Reapers by the end of ME 1.  I'm showing there's no real reason to deny it to Shepard just because they "don't want to cause a panic"


And at the start of Mass Effect 2, they took a complete 180 on this position, as other characters can testify. Your judgment seems to be that the Council choosing to disbelieve in the Reapers is somehow nonsensical. Problems being:

1) Your judgment has no standing in any renegade scenario. Udina was the only one to make any positive claim regarding the Reapers. However, Udina's word is not law, he is not the human council. It's also completely within his character to stab you in the back, as he's done before, showing that he's not above lying to get what he wants. Any claims you can make regarding how the previous Council believed Shepard/understood his theory on the Reapers died with them.

2) There ultimately is no evidence of Reapers. Yes, the Council claims to have believed Shepard at the closing of ME1. But what new evidence came forth? They conceded Saren was a danger, that he was leading the Geth/using the Reapers to manipulate them, and that it was a priority to beat him to the Conduit. They also already possessed prior knowledge of Sovereign, which they mentioned before sending Shepard off to chase Saren. This was all at the start of your quest. So excluding the Prothean visions, conversation with Sovereign, and Vigil's beacon, which no one else has access to, what new evidence can you point to? There must be something if we can make the claim that the Council is acting stupid/out of character.

Right, but do it more.  Somehow I doubt the Council extensively intervierwed Liara about Shepard's visions, Vigil's warnings, or Liara's own theories. 


And yet, as Liara herself concedes, among the Asari she has obtained little respect due to both her theories and her age. And they don't need to interview her regarding Vigil's warnings as Shepard possesses all the same knowledge.
What ultimately could Liara provide as evidence? The best she could probably do is provide her own theories that there were advanced civilizations before the Protheans, but nothing to identify the Reapers as responsible.

Quarians and krogan are two.  There's also the batarians, the Terminus System governments, the various merc groups (the Blue Suns, Eclipse, and Blood Pack appear to be practically standing armies on their own).  PLus who knows how many other non-Council races are out there that simply haven't been mentioned yet? 


Then I wish Shepard luck in convincing these groups to stop killing each other. Whether or not it would be great to unite all these forces does not say whether it would be possible. It's true that groups tend to unite to face a common foe, but there's not even enough evidence to convince the Council, we can barely get the Citadel races to get along with each other, and now we're going to try convincing the anarchy that is the Terminus Systems? Obviously, once the Reapers arrive, I could see this as a possibility, but not any time before.

Vigil is a Prothean VI.  Even without the Reaper threat, that should have every archaeologist and engineer in Council space unable to speak for all the drool they're producing.  And it's functional!  It just needs a power supply!  And it's operating a Prothean research base!  Not the cast-offs left behind for other races to find, but top of the line technology.


But what kind of power supply? Do they possess the technology to do so? We know the Council couldn't get it active, but that's really it. This was in the past two years since Shepard's been gone. 

I'm not.  I'm expecting them to use the possibility (and until the discovery of teh true/heretic geth split, a very real possibility) as a reason to build up and expand their military for the coming war against the Reapers.  If the Council doesn't want to cause a panic by revealing the truth about the Reapers, then use the geth attack as a reason.  But completely denying it, especially to Shepard's face, makes them look like idots.


If the Council even believes in the Reapers, then they will declare war against them. Why shouldn't they deny what they no longer believe? As I said, war with the Geth makes sense. Preparing for war with the Geth also makes sense. Your position relies entirely on the grounds that the Council believes in the Reapers, which also requires some basis for saying that they are idiots for still not believing in the Reapers.

To keep this post from getting any longer than it already is, I'll just say that he's able to convince several of his squadmates awfully easily.  Particularly those less inclined to help others, or have other things to do.


Depends on the squade mate. Some, like Garrus and Tali, know Shepard fairly well. Others, like Samara (justicar) or Thane ( looking for redemption) already have a base motive for cooperation, and still others, Kasumi and Zaeed, are being paid. The only squad mate whose cooperation Shepard obtains far too easily seems to be Jack, whose chaotic nature is too much to control. I still say you are exaggerating how much influence Shepard should have in convincing a Galactic Government to declare war on imaginary creatures vs. convincing an old friend or a mercenary to assist with a mission.

Good thing they have a dark space relay Posted Image.  Though that's more of a long-term problem.  For right now, gotta get the weapons to wage the war to begin with.


Assuming they can get it active. It wasn't made entirely clear what was on Vigil's data disc beyond it being able to keep control away from Sovereign.

Modifié par Il Divo, 08 novembre 2010 - 01:47 .


#1372
Dean_the_Young

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Il Divo wrote...

iakus wrote...

Exactly.  If the Council is afraid of starting a panic, they don't have to tell anyone about the Reapers yet.  There's already one advanced enemy out there they can keep the people focused on while preparing to fight the real bad guys.  The Council had already demonstrated thta they believed in the Reapers by the end of ME 1.  I'm showing there's no real reason to deny it to Shepard just because they "don't want to cause a panic"


And at the start of Mass Effect 2, they took a complete 180 on this position, as other characters can testify. Your judgment seems to be that the Council choosing to disbelieve in the Reapers is somehow nonsensical. Problems being:

1) Your judgment has no standing in any renegade scenario. Udina was the only one to make any positive claim regarding the Reapers. However, Udina's word is not law, he is not the human council. It's also completely within his character to stab you in the back, as he's done on multiple occasions. Any claims you can make regarding how the previous Council believed Shepard/understood his theory on the Reapers died with them.

'Multiple' occassions? 

It's not even that I disagree with your point, but when did Udina stab you in the back more than the Normandy lockdown? I won't even argue about how he could have basis for that even.

#1373
Il Divo

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

It's not even that I disagree with your point, but when did Udina stab you in the back more than the Normandy lockdown? I won't even argue about how he could have basis for that even.


Hmm, in my passion, I may have overexaggerated a fair bit. I'll edit that sentence to be more accurate to the game. Thanks for catching that.

#1374
Jebel Krong

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er, they do explain in the council conversation that the prothean VI shut itself down after shepard's encounter. that is non-specific but probably only relevant to archaeologists.



the reaper itself - even small pieces should have been much more compelling evidence (unless the reapers have been somewhat misleading about their technological prowess).

#1375
Xeranx

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Jebel Krong wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

I'll agree that having some scenes of them working together and coming together would make sense, but then you also have to realize that many of them likely have personal reasons to steer clear of others.  For example, Jack definitely wouldn't get along with most folks besides Grunt, and in his case they'd likely try to kill each other just for kicks.  Zaeed and Samara would likely not get along socially either.


Now, do you see how you're considering how each of them would interact with each other?

That's enough to make my mouth water. That's what I craved, just for them to interact and show an awareness of each other. Them "coming together as a team" is just something that would be nice to find at the end of that road, but it's not my main desire. My main desire is just to see them acknowledge each other, because of how fascinating it would be.

97% of my complaints with ME2's story would totally evaporate if they just gave me a squad that wasn't so compartmentalized - a squad that interacted a la DA:O.


did the party banter in me1? answer: no more than in me2, so in that respect, yes, you were expecting too much. it would have been nice, but is it a game-breaking disappointment? - no, because it wasn't in the first i don't expect it in the second.

a lot of you talk about this big "disconnect" between me1/me2 and i'm sorry i just don't see it - overall they are so similar in tone/style/design etc it is clear one follows the other. sure some things have changed, for better and worse in some cases, but the disconnect is really in your minds when you consider the entire experience.


That's a flawed argument considering the stated fact that ME2 is about the characters and Mass Effect (ME1) wasn't stated to be character driven.  If I'm going to get a story that's supposed to be about the characters and is supposed to be character driven then the characters should have more say in anything that happens.