1700 réponses à ce sujet

[jlb524]

Lumikki wrote...

iakus wrote...

Overdone as too many strong, silent, superpowered bad****es in silly outfits.     I think it would take a lot to have too much talking in this game. 

For you maybe, but for me it's opposite. Too much talking is for me more annoying, than too little talking. When I play Mass Effect, I want to feel as been part of science fiction military. Not to get feel like I'm in some sims, what's is focus to some social aspect of the human nature. Too much social aspect make hole game just feel wrong. That's why I sayed, the talking should be more related the job what character do.

There are tons of games from other developers that lack the talking.  BioWare is known for the talking, so when a game like Mass Effect 2 doesn't have enough of it, people will be disappointed. 

[Nightwriter]

Yay! jlb posted in the thread! *throws confetti*

[Lumikki]

jlb524 wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

iakus wrote...

Overdone as too many strong, silent, superpowered bad****es in silly outfits.     I think it would take a lot to have too much talking in this game. 

For you maybe, but for me it's opposite. Too much talking is for me more annoying, than too little talking. When I play Mass Effect, I want to feel as been part of science fiction military. Not to get feel like I'm in some sims, what's is focus to some social aspect of the human nature. Too much social aspect make hole game just feel wrong. That's why I sayed, the talking should be more related the job what character do.

There are tons of games from other developers that lack the talking.  BioWare is known for the talking, so when a game like Mass Effect 2 doesn't have enough of it, people will be disappointed. 

I would like to know those games. So list some good scifi games what aren't FPS. I hate FPS games.

PS: I did not sayed lack of talking, I mean too much talking, can be as bad as not enough. That's two different thing.

[jlb524]

Lumikki wrote...

I would like to know those games. So list some good scifi games what aren't FPS. I hate FPS games.

I don't know...I'm not a shooter fan.   I'm just saying, there are certain expectations with BioWare games.

Lumikki wrote...

PS: I did not sayed lack of talking, I mean too much talking, can be as bad as not enough. That's two different thing.

Of course, but I don't think ME2 is in danger of having too much..it hardly has any.  I don't mean just interactions between Shepard and another, but just interaction between crew members...there's practically none in ME2, minus two confrontations.

[cachx]

Nightwriter wrote...
I want the characters to feel more involved in the plot. The best way to do this is to weave them into it somehow. Doesn't mean they each come prepackaged with a plot connection - they could develop one over the course of the game somehow.

Technically speaking, since every squadmate got through the Suicide Mission, now they're a part of the "main thread" plot, because they understand how real is the reaper threat and fought against it, and are connected to Shepard and stuff. It's almost like this game is part of an ongoing series or something! (well, we don't know if all of them will stick around for ME3, but hopefully you get what I mean, even Zaeed recognizes a galaxy shaking revelation when he hears it).

They form a part of the plot the second they were selected as possible candidates for the team. Or if you wish to believe Hudson "characters are the plot". In respect to their motivation for acception or staying, some are more flimsier than others, I agree on that.

Let's take Thane as an example. He's a dying man, and it's using his unique skillset by taking near-suicide missions to kill bad people and make the galaxy a better place before he goes. He takes Sheps offer (and then loyalty happens and so on...). Now let's take all that and say... I don't know, his wife was killed by Collectors looking for Drell genetic material. How does that help? nothing, nada. Is contrived and unnecesary for the character.

Maybe we could discuss the motivations for each character individually, but that could take some time...

[Kronner]

Lumikki wrote...


I would like to know those games. So list some good scifi games what aren't FPS. I hate FPS games.

Deus Ex (First person view, but it is proper RPG)
StarCraft 1, expansions, 2
Freelancer
EVE Online

Modifié par Kronner, 09 novembre 2010 - 04:25 .

[morrie23]

jlb524 wrote...

Of course, but I don't think ME2 is in danger of having too much..it hardly has any.  I don't mean just interactions between Shepard and another, but just interaction between crew members...there's practically none in ME2, minus two confrontations.

They cut a Mordin/Grunt confrontation for some reason, it would of literally increased the amount of interaction we see between squadmates by 50%

[Nightwriter]

cachx wrote...

Technically speaking, since every squadmate got through the Suicide Mission, now they're a part of the "main thread" plot, because they understand how real is the reaper threat and fought against it, and are connected to Shepard and stuff. It's almost like this game is part of an ongoing series or something! (well, we don't know if all of them will stick around for ME3, but hopefully you get what I mean, even Zaeed recognizes a galaxy shaking revelation when he hears it).

They form a part of the plot the second they were selected as possible candidates for the team. Or if you wish to believe Hudson "characters are the plot". In respect to their motivation for acception or staying, some are more flimsier than others, I agree on that.

Let's take Thane as an example. He's a dying man, and it's using his unique skillset by taking near-suicide missions to kill bad people and make the galaxy a better place before he goes. He takes Sheps offer (and then loyalty happens and so on...). Now let's take all that and say... I don't know, his wife was killed by Collectors looking for Drell genetic material. How does that help? nothing, nada. Is contrived and unnecesary for the character.

Maybe we could discuss the motivations for each character individually, but that could take some time...

I actually did not feel like any of the characters were "part of the plot now" after the suicide mission. We sort of all felt as disconnected as before...

Thane is actually one character whose motivations are explained fairly well. It's still a tad random for me - if someone else with a cause to die for had come along before me, would he have hopped on that train instead? - but I appreciated it. I wouldn't mind discussing some of the other characters' motivations, or lack thereof.

[jlb524]

I don't mind that the characters aren't tied into the plot (I don't think they need to be for this type of mission....they are here just to help Shepard stop the Collectors, and they can do this without their uncle being abducted)



The problem I have is after they get their '15 minutes of fame' via the loyalty mission, you don't hear from them again (unless you do a romance subplot). They don't speak to you anymore, they don't speak to others, they don't discuss the mission, nothing...they are just there and take up space (I forget about some of them eventually).

[AdmiralCheez]

Nightwriter wrote...

I actually did not feel like any of the characters were "part of the plot now" after the suicide mission. We sort of all felt as disconnected as before...

I disagree.  The suicide mission finally brought that crazy bunch together, giving them a connection to one another.  I DO wish there was a little more banter between members (elevator convos without elevators?) but it's too late to go back and fix it.

ME3.  Cross your fingers.

[CaptainZaysh]

cachx wrote...
Let's take Thane as an example. He's a dying man, and it's using his unique skillset by taking near-suicide missions to kill bad people and make the galaxy a better place before he goes. He takes Sheps offer (and then loyalty happens and so on...). Now let's take all that and say... I don't know, his wife was killed by Collectors looking for Drell genetic material. How does that help? nothing, nada. Is contrived and unnecesary for the character.

It would be much better if he were dying because of the collectors somehow.  Then it would make perfect sense for him to retaliate via the suicide mission.  As it is, I really don't understand why he joins Shep.

[CaptainZaysh]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

I disagree.  The suicide mission finally brought that crazy bunch together, giving them a connection to one another.  I DO wish there was a little more banter between members (elevator convos without elevators?) but it's too late to go back and fix it.

It's not something that could have been fixed with banter.  The team needed better motivations to join the suicide mission in the first place.  None of them got any kind of revenge.  Few of them seemed cognisant of the Reaper threat (and one who did, Liara, wasn't even motivated enough by that to join the team).  Far as I can tell only one of them actually got paid.  Why the hell did they do it?

[Moiaussi]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

cachx wrote...
Let's take Thane as an example. He's a dying man, and it's using his unique skillset by taking near-suicide missions to kill bad people and make the galaxy a better place before he goes. He takes Sheps offer (and then loyalty happens and so on...). Now let's take all that and say... I don't know, his wife was killed by Collectors looking for Drell genetic material. How does that help? nothing, nada. Is contrived and unnecesary for the character.

It would be much better if he were dying because of the collectors somehow.  Then it would make perfect sense for him to retaliate via the suicide mission.  As it is, I really don't understand why he joins Shep.

Because as an assassin by trade he is a solder, with a related code of honour and a desire to go down fighting (in this case atoning for his past). He sees helping save countless others from the collector threat as a means to do that, and potentially on a very large scale.

I am not sure when such concepts became cliched or out of style... 

[CaptainZaysh]

That explanation doesn't ring true to me, Moiaussi. I don't see how you can get from "atoning for the assassinations he carried out for the hanar" to "joining a suicide mission against the collectors" - the two just seem epically unrelated to me.

[Nightwriter]

jlb524 wrote...

I don't mind that the characters aren't tied into the plot (I don't think they need to be for this type of mission....they are here just to help Shepard stop the Collectors, and they can do this without their uncle being abducted)

The problem I have is after they get their '15 minutes of fame' via the loyalty mission, you don't hear from them again (unless you do a romance subplot). They don't speak to you anymore, they don't speak to others, they don't discuss the mission, nothing...they are just there and take up space (I forget about some of them eventually).

You know, I think you're right. More dialogue would just have made everything so much better. I'd like them to have some plot significance, but I'd settle for just seeing them actually react to the mission.

It's like the only time a character reacts to anything is in their loyalty mission.

[Jebel Krong]

Moiaussi wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

cachx wrote...
Let's take Thane as an example. He's a dying man, and it's using his unique skillset by taking near-suicide missions to kill bad people and make the galaxy a better place before he goes. He takes Sheps offer (and then loyalty happens and so on...). Now let's take all that and say... I don't know, his wife was killed by Collectors looking for Drell genetic material. How does that help? nothing, nada. Is contrived and unnecesary for the character.

It would be much better if he were dying because of the collectors somehow.  Then it would make perfect sense for him to retaliate via the suicide mission.  As it is, I really don't understand why he joins Shep.

Because as an assassin by trade he is a solder, with a related code of honour and a desire to go down fighting (in this case atoning for his past). He sees helping save countless others from the collector threat as a means to do that, and potentially on a very large scale.

I am not sure when such concepts became cliched or out of style... 

This. Zaysh what you suggest is so forced and so cliche it would have ruined the game...

[Moiaussi]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

That explanation doesn't ring true to me, Moiaussi. I don't see how you can get from "atoning for the assassinations he carried out for the hanar" to "joining a suicide mission against the collectors" - the two just seem epically unrelated to me.

It is not atoning for assassinations. It is atoning for a lack of discretion in choice of targets in those assassinations. Nearing death he has started to care where the gun is pointed. That is different from suddenly deciding the gun shouldn't be pointed at all.

Besides, if the Collectors (and therefore the reapers) win, his son dies, the hanar die, everyone and everything he cares about dies.

How is that not a 'personal connection?'

Based on the 'no personal connection' complaint, noone must have actually fought in WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam, or pretty much any war anywhere. Most soldiers have no personal connection to the wars they fight in other than patriotism or similar emotions.

Modifié par Moiaussi, 09 novembre 2010 - 05:42 .

[Getorex]

Moiaussi wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

cachx wrote...
Let's take Thane as an example. He's a dying man, and it's using his unique skillset by taking near-suicide missions to kill bad people and make the galaxy a better place before he goes. He takes Sheps offer (and then loyalty happens and so on...). Now let's take all that and say... I don't know, his wife was killed by Collectors looking for Drell genetic material. How does that help? nothing, nada. Is contrived and unnecesary for the character.

It would be much better if he were dying because of the collectors somehow.  Then it would make perfect sense for him to retaliate via the suicide mission.  As it is, I really don't understand why he joins Shep.

Because as an assassin by trade he is a solder, with a related code of honour and a desire to go down fighting (in this case atoning for his past). He sees helping save countless others from the collector threat as a means to do that, and potentially on a very large scale.

I am not sure when such concepts became cliched or out of style... 

Well...I would take exception to an assassin having any kind of code that falls into the same room as "honor". At least a soldier's oath is to (American) "to protect and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign or domestic" and basically willingly/consciously place their life on the line to do this so that others don't have to. What's the assassin's code? Where is it even close to equivalent? Especially in light of Thane's idea that he is beyond guilt in killing WHOMEVER his financier tells him to kill...no honor there. Just kill ANYONE because he was paid to do so.

I simply took it as he DOES feel guilt for what HE has done, regardless of his hollow and incoherent words, and since he's croaking anyway, why not atone somewhat by going on a suicide mission that has the goal of doing something good? In other words, sacrificing his life for something of value (finally) to make up for the murdering he's gone along with before.

[Moiaussi]

Getorex wrote...

Well...I would take exception to an assassin having any kind of code that falls into the same room as "honor". At least a soldier's oath is to (American) "to protect and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign or domestic" and basically willingly/consciously place their life on the line to do this so that others don't have to. What's the assassin's code? Where is it even close to equivalent? Especially in light of Thane's idea that he is beyond guilt in killing WHOMEVER his financier tells him to kill...no honor there. Just kill ANYONE because he was paid to do so.

I simply took it as he DOES feel guilt for what HE has done, regardless of his hollow and incoherent words, and since he's croaking anyway, why not atone somewhat by going on a suicide mission that has the goal of doing something good? In other words, sacrificing his life for something of value (finally) to make up for the murdering he's gone along with before.

Pardon, but killing whoever your target is regardless of who it and regardless of mission difficulty is is a code. You might not find that honourable, but you don't have the same sense of honour. Honour is only a subset of ethics.

You are right though, it is not the assassin's code that causes him to start caring. That does not mean though that his being basicly an honourable man doesn't play a role in him making such a committment to choosing targets more carefully.

[Getorex]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

I disagree.  The suicide mission finally brought that crazy bunch together, giving them a connection to one another.  I DO wish there was a little more banter between members (elevator convos without elevators?) but it's too late to go back and fix it.

It's not something that could have been fixed with banter.  The team needed better motivations to join the suicide mission in the first place.  None of them got any kind of revenge.  Few of them seemed cognisant of the Reaper threat (and one who did, Liara, wasn't even motivated enough by that to join the team).  Far as I can tell only one of them actually got paid.  Why the hell did they do it?

I was thinking this just yesterday as I finished (all the way finally) the LotSB (insanity level playthrough of ME1 and ME2 cut short a previous game on merely "hardcore" level). I was thinking that if they dispensed with Samara (preferably) they could have used the LotSB as Liara's "recruitment mission" with a loyalty mission being, I would expect and hope, totally unnecessary given her role with you in ME1. Put it about midway through the game and there you go, some continuity with ME1 and a GREAT story/mission to play as well - other than the RIDICULOUSNESS of Shepard, female OR big muscle-y male, actually getting into fisticuffs with the Shadow Broker who looked like he weighed in about the same as an adult rhino! Know what happens if you punch a rhino? 1. It shakes its head (maybe, if punch was truly solid); 2) swings its head and gores you at the same time it flings you like a rag doll; and 3) gores you again before trampling you into a pulpy red mass. Time from start to finish, perhaps 20 seconds. The SB didn't have a horn (or horns) with which to gore you but the rest applies. The end result in a physical altercation is: red pulpy mess for Shepard. Other than THAT I really loved it.

[Moiaussi]

You do realize that Shepard is heavily cyber'd up. He isn't strictly human any more...

[RiouHotaru]

Nightwriter wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

I don't mind that the characters aren't tied into the plot (I don't think they need to be for this type of mission....they are here just to help Shepard stop the Collectors, and they can do this without their uncle being abducted)

The problem I have is after they get their '15 minutes of fame' via the loyalty mission, you don't hear from them again (unless you do a romance subplot). They don't speak to you anymore, they don't speak to others, they don't discuss the mission, nothing...they are just there and take up space (I forget about some of them eventually).

You know, I think you're right. More dialogue would just have made everything so much better. I'd like them to have some plot significance, but I'd settle for just seeing them actually react to the mission.

It's like the only time a character reacts to anything is in their loyalty mission.

But ME1 didn't have them interact with each other outside of the Elevators.  And most of those were the SAME conversations with slightly different answers/responses.  Aside from that...?

Also, there are moments during loyalty missions where characters will respond to each other's comments, and occasionally in missions themselves.  But it's usually only a single line or so.  Really, the character interaction in ME2 feels no more lacking than ME1, yet this wasn't raised as an issue back then?

Modifié par RiouHotaru, 09 novembre 2010 - 06:18 .

[Getorex]

Moiaussi wrote...

You do realize that Shepard is heavily cyber'd up. He isn't strictly human any more...

Doesn't matter. Not THAT "cyber'd up" because...just look at how effective his melee skills are against husks, scions, collectors, various and sundry mercs, etc. Then you go several orders of magnitude up in the hardass scale and face a rhino! Even if you were a 300lbs NFL lineman, you would still get tossed and gored by a rhino in about 20 seconds, as above. I don't see Shepard in the game being even close in strength (or mass for that matter) to a 300lb lineman. Just a black or white rhino weights in the neighborhood of 6000 to 7000lbs! Hell, take a few fold masses downward and just consider the SB to be equivalent to a draft horse. Let's just say a Clydesdale: now were talking a mere 2000lbs +. Orders of magnitude greater strength STILL.

I'm just going on the apparent build and size of the SB. Clydesdale mass at least, black rhino at max. 2000 to 7000 lbs.

Fem Shep: 120lbs tops. Male Shep: 190lbs tops (even if you "muscle" him up max with the customization software). SB: at least 2000 - 7000lbs. See the problem? Even at 300lbs as an NFL lineman, it is nothin' vs that a midrange mass of 4500lbs and the simple physical power that naturally comes of that.

That hand-to-hand push fight and fist fight simply served to take me out of the illusion of reality for that period of time. Truly, the PUSH FIGHT was even more egregious than the punching. Really? Even with augmentation, Shepard cannot push a mass of 4500lbs that is actively pushing back (remember the part where he is pushing against the red shield thing the SB is carrying?). Physics rules the day, always.

Modifié par Getorex, 09 novembre 2010 - 06:22 .

[cachx]

Nightwriter wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

I don't mind that the characters aren't tied into the plot (I don't think they need to be for this type of mission....they are here just to help Shepard stop the Collectors, and they can do this without their uncle being abducted)

The problem I have is after they get their '15 minutes of fame' via the loyalty mission, you don't hear from them again (unless you do a romance subplot). They don't speak to you anymore, they don't speak to others, they don't discuss the mission, nothing...they are just there and take up space (I forget about some of them eventually).

You know, I think you're right. More dialogue would just have made everything so much better. I'd like them to have some plot significance, but I'd settle for just seeing them actually react to the mission.

It's like the only time a character reacts to anything is in their loyalty mission.

They also react on the recruitments .

The fact that "the third guy" only speaks a couple of sentences every mission is not really enough, I can agree on that. The thing I'm not so sure about is where do we draw the line if are just being unreasonable by asking for "moar stuff", taking into account the overlwhelming amount of variables you have to consider.

"they don't speak to you anymore". Well, they have to stop recording at some point !

[Moiaussi]

[quote]Getorex wrote...

[quote]Doesn't matter. Not THAT "cyber'd up" because...just look at how effective his melee skills are against husks, scions, collectors, various and sundry mercs, etc. Then you go several orders of magnitude up in the hardass scale and face a rhino! Even if you were a 300lbs NFL lineman, you would still get tossed and gored by a rhino in about 20 seconds, as above. I don't see Shepard in the game being even close in strength (or mass for that matter) to a 300lb lineman. Just a black or white rhino weights in the neighborhood of 6000 to 7000lbs! Hell, take a few fold masses downward and just consider the SB to be equivalent to a draft horse. Let's just say a Clydesdale: now were talking a mere 2000lbs +. Orders of magnitude greater strength STILL.

I'm just going on the apparent build and size of the SB. Clydesdale mass at least, black rhino at max. 2000 to 7000 lbs.

Fem Shep: 120lbs tops. Male Shep: 190lbs tops (even if you "muscle" him up max with the customization software). SB: at least 2000 - 7000lbs. See the problem? Even at 300lbs as an NFL lineman, it is nothin' vs that a midrange mass of 4500lbs and the simple physical power that naturally comes of that.

That hand-to-hand push fight and fist fight simply served to take me out of the illusion of reality for that period of time. Truly, the PUSH FIGHT was even more egregious than the punching. Really? Even with augmentation, Shepard cannot push a mass of 4500lbs that is actively pushing back (remember the part where he is pushing against the red shield thing the SB is carrying?). Physics rules the day, always.
[/quote]

A bullet or sword or mace are all a lot lighter than a human, but they allow a human to hit a lot harder. Weight isn't everything. Based on your arguements, a man could never move more than himself naked regardless of his strength.

As for Strength vs a husk vs str vs the shadowbroker, perhaps the husks have mass effect fields dampning the impact strength or something? Or perhaps it is just bad scaling...

It can be bad writing, but just pointing out that citing physics in a genre where physics is warped by psudoscience is problematic.