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[Getorex]

Nightwriter wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

I don't mind that the characters aren't tied into the plot (I don't think they need to be for this type of mission....they are here just to help Shepard stop the Collectors, and they can do this without their uncle being abducted)

The problem I have is after they get their '15 minutes of fame' via the loyalty mission, you don't hear from them again (unless you do a romance subplot). They don't speak to you anymore, they don't speak to others, they don't discuss the mission, nothing...they are just there and take up space (I forget about some of them eventually).

You know, I think you're right. More dialogue would just have made everything so much better. I'd like them to have some plot significance, but I'd settle for just seeing them actually react to the mission.

It's like the only time a character reacts to anything is in their loyalty mission.

Now c'mon now! They ARE reacting! Jack is down in the dungeon of the ship brooding on the mission (and other sh*t). Garrus is reacting by...doing some calibrations! Jacob is reacting by...I don't know what he's doing...is he cleaning rifles and pistols in there? Miranda is reacting by sending in reports to TIM. Samara is reacting by playing hackisack with a glowball. Thane reacts by staring into space (not unlike Jack). Grunt broods on smashing skulls. Kasumi, I gather, reacts by sneaking around the ship all cloaked up (and making invisable doe eyes at Jacob while he does crunches or cleans the weapons).

See, they all deal in their own solitary way!

[Getorex]

Kronner wrote...

Lumikki wrote...


I would like to know those games. So list some good scifi games what aren't FPS. I hate FPS games.

Deus Ex (First person view, but it is proper RPG)
StarCraft 1, expansions, 2
Freelancer
EVE Online

Ugh...

Eve is what I think about whenever someone says they want to see space combat in ME3.

Eve is ALL spacecraft with a little bit of texting thrown in. Texting from NPCs, texting back and forth to actual human players, etc. No PEOPLE ala ME. You are ALWAYS just a ship skating around mining or shooting.

Just sayin'

Deus Ex was fantastic - but is REALLY dated now graphics wise.

[Moiaussi]

For MMO's, Anarchy Online started well, but is now very dated. Tabula Rasa had potential too, but not enough depth and died.

[CaptainZaysh]

Moiaussi wrote...

It is not atoning for assassinations. It is atoning for a lack of discretion in choice of targets in those assassinations. Nearing death he has started to care where the gun is pointed. That is different from suddenly deciding the gun shouldn't be pointed at all.

And yet he jumps at the chance to assassinate some Collectors.  Doesn't seem like a man agonising over the right targets to me.

Moiaussi wrote...
Besides, if the Collectors (and therefore the reapers) win, his son dies, the hanar die, everyone and everything he cares about dies.

How is that not a 'personal connection?'

Because when he agrees to join he has no idea the Collectors are connected to the Reapers (nor is there any indication he even knows what they are), and no information that the Collectors are a threat to anyone except human colonists.

Moiaussi wrote...
Based on the 'no personal connection' complaint, noone must have actually fought in WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam, or pretty much any war anywhere. Most soldiers have no personal connection to the wars they fight in other than patriotism or similar emotions.

If you look at everybody who fought in those wars they will have had some motivation to do so.  Patriotism, fear of consequences of refusal, desire for adventure, etc.  None of those reasons apply to Thane (nor pretty much any other member of the crew bar the two Cerberus agents).

You want to know Thane's real motivation for joining Shepard?  Here it is: because the script said so.

That is s**tty writing, Mou.  I really love playing ME and ME2, and I think they are wonderful games, but having important characters make bizarre out of character decisions in order to make the story work is just straight up s**tty writing.

[Nightwriter]

Getorex wrote...

Now c'mon now! They ARE reacting! Jack is down in the dungeon of the ship brooding on the mission (and other sh*t). Garrus is reacting by...doing some calibrations! Jacob is reacting by...I don't know what he's doing...is he cleaning rifles and pistols in there? Miranda is reacting by sending in reports to TIM. Samara is reacting by playing hackisack with a glowball. Thane reacts by staring into space (not unlike Jack). Grunt broods on smashing skulls. Kasumi, I gather, reacts by sneaking around the ship all cloaked up (and making invisable doe eyes at Jacob while he does crunches or cleans the weapons).

See, they all deal in their own solitary way!

It's all clear to me now.

[Getorex]

[quote]Moiaussi wrote...

[quote]Getorex wrote...

[quote]Doesn't matter. Not THAT "cyber'd up" because...just look at how effective his melee skills are against husks, scions, collectors, various and sundry mercs, etc. Then you go several orders of magnitude up in the hardass scale and face a rhino! Even if you were a 300lbs NFL lineman, you would still get tossed and gored by a rhino in about 20 seconds, as above. I don't see Shepard in the game being even close in strength (or mass for that matter) to a 300lb lineman. Just a black or white rhino weights in the neighborhood of 6000 to 7000lbs! Hell, take a few fold masses downward and just consider the SB to be equivalent to a draft horse. Let's just say a Clydesdale: now were talking a mere 2000lbs +. Orders of magnitude greater strength STILL.

I'm just going on the apparent build and size of the SB. Clydesdale mass at least, black rhino at max. 2000 to 7000 lbs.

Fem Shep: 120lbs tops. Male Shep: 190lbs tops (even if you "muscle" him up max with the customization software). SB: at least 2000 - 7000lbs. See the problem? Even at 300lbs as an NFL lineman, it is nothin' vs that a midrange mass of 4500lbs and the simple physical power that naturally comes of that.

That hand-to-hand push fight and fist fight simply served to take me out of the illusion of reality for that period of time. Truly, the PUSH FIGHT was even more egregious than the punching. Really? Even with augmentation, Shepard cannot push a mass of 4500lbs that is actively pushing back (remember the part where he is pushing against the red shield thing the SB is carrying?). Physics rules the day, always.
[/quote]

A bullet or sword or mace are all a lot lighter than a human, but they allow a human to hit a lot harder. Weight isn't everything. Based on your arguements, a man could never move more than himself naked regardless of his strength.

As for Strength vs a husk vs str vs the shadowbroker, perhaps the husks have mass effect fields dampning the impact strength or something? Or perhaps it is just bad scaling...

It can be bad writing, but just pointing out that citing physics in a genre where physics is warped by psudoscience is problematic.[/quote]


Well, there's augmentation and then there's augmentation. I bet virtually no one here remembers the TV show "6 Million Dollar Man". Steve Austin, a man barely alive - astronaut/test pilot rebuilt after a horrendous crash in a test aircraft with cyber stuff. He was bionic. One arm was bionic, both legs, one eye. With those legs they had him running at 60 to 70 mph. OK, we'll suspend belief for that one however...BIG problem with that one arm. See, with ONE ARM, replaced from about the mid-bicep on down, with a bionic addition, they had him picking up cars with that one arm, ripping down walls or armored doors, etc.

The problem is physics. No matter how strong the actual bionic muscle is in the arm, the limitation is the flesh and bone to which it is fused to. Picking up a car is NOT simply a matter of having a strong ARM. It means a strong pair of legs, back, shoulders, stomach, and then arms. They all have to deal with the mass you are tossing around. Augmention cannot change that.

Shepard: weighs, AT MOST (as a male) 190 lbs. All the augmentation in the universe cannot make up for the fact that he only has enertia on his side commensurate with 190lbs. He is as limited as any NON-augmented human male of that mass, regardless of any cyber additions. As such, he cannot generate enough force/traction/inertia to resist a 2000 to 7000 lbs pile of muscle pushing against him. Can't. He would somehow have to transform his weight to about the equivalent of the SB to do so.

Think of tug-o-war. A 120 lbs female is no match for a single 190 lbs male. A single 190 lbs male is no match for a single 250 lbs male. It is more than just physical strength involved. It is mass and traction. They go together inseparably. A 120 lbs female (that's a fairly solid physically fit female) or a 120 lbs male (a very geeky dude) cannot hold the line against a 190 lbs dude. Too much mass difference - traction difference - inertia difference. The 190 lbs dude could literally just sit down and hold the rope while the chick or geeky dude strains, grunts, and struggles like mad to move the otherwise immovable object on the other end of the rope.

[CaptainZaysh]

Getorex wrote...
As such, he cannot generate enough force/traction/inertia to resist a 2000 to 7000 lbs pile of muscle pushing against him. Can't. He would somehow have to transform his weight to about the equivalent of the SB to do so.

If only there were some kind of in-universe explanation for how Shepard could effect a change in his mass.

[Getorex]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Getorex wrote...
As such, he cannot generate enough force/traction/inertia to resist a 2000 to 7000 lbs pile of muscle pushing against him. Can't. He would somehow have to transform his weight to about the equivalent of the SB to do so.

If only there were some kind of in-universe explanation for how Shepard could effect a change in his mass.

Really? You go there to BACK IN an explanation to make the inexplicable retroactively "reasonable"?

GAH! GAH!

More magic godd@mnit! Retroactive magic at that! GAH!

It all happens even if, as I do, you play your Shep as a soldier (not some mage biotic type). He doesn't glow (all characters using biotic powers glow, even Shep to some extent when getting all biotic-y). It STILL doesn't clear the issue. Simply nullifying the mass difference problem doesn't fix the strength issue.

Shep's melee abilities are midlin at best against all enemies in the game but they become the KEY to defeating the huge, strong rhino dude? Augmented Shep doesn't reach his all-powerful hand-to-hand augmented superhero retard strength until he hits the pinnacle in his melee against the Shadowbroker?

That PARTICULAR scene was very very comic booky. Superhero comic booky.

Hell, even in "Predator" (decent scifi action movie) Arnold Schwartzenegger can't physically handle the predator alien who kicks his @ss three ways to Sunday - and that alien was only about 50-ish+ % heavier than Ah-nold. Old Ah-nold had to resort to clever weapons tricks to take down the bigger, stronger, badder Predator. Man cannot defeat bigass aliens by roids alone!

Modifié par Getorex, 09 novembre 2010 - 07:22 .

[CaptainZaysh]

Combat exoskeleton. My femshep always wears one. It makes that smack in the chops she gave Saren on Virmire much sweeter.



And I think Shep is actually pretty lethal in melee. S/he kills most enemies in one or two blows, right? Wish I could do that in a scrap. I'd be pleased to put a guy on his ass with a nosebleed in two punches, let alone kill the guy. S/he's also a martial artist - observe the high kick she delivers to the face of a pouncing varren on that N7 mission with the quarians.

[jlb524]

RiouHotaru wrote...

But ME1 didn't have them interact with each other outside of the Elevators.  And most of those were the SAME conversations with slightly different answers/responses.  Aside from that...?

Also, there are moments during loyalty missions where characters will respond to each other's comments, and occasionally in missions themselves.  But it's usually only a single line or so.  Really, the character interaction in ME2 feels no more lacking than ME1, yet this wasn't raised as an issue back then?

ME1 wasn't a character driven plot either.  Besides, the 6 squad members seemed to fit in to the story more, and didn't feel like just a bunch of merchs recruited for one mission.  There reasons for wanting to help Shepard stop Saren seemed more personal, more sincere than most of the ME2 squad's desires to stop the Collectors.

[CaptainZaysh]

jlb524 wrote...

ME1 wasn't a character driven plot either.  Besides, the 6 squad members seemed to fit in to the story more, and didn't feel like just a bunch of merchs recruited for one mission.  There reasons for wanting to help Shepard stop Saren seemed more personal, more sincere than most of the ME2 squad's desires to stop the Collectors.

Exactly, commander.  Let's recap:
- Liara was an expert in the Protheans and her mother was working with Saren
- Ash lost her entire unit to Saren's geth
- Garrus was trying to take Saren down for his crimes
- Tali had discovered the proof that Saren was a traitor, and had nearly been killed for it
- Kaiden was in it for as long as Shep was, and knew the stakes
- Wrex joined Shep to complete an assignment, but had also tangled with Saren in the past

By comparison most of the ME2 characters had no reason to join the suicide mission or even care about its outcome.

[Getorex]

jlb524 wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

But ME1 didn't have them interact with each other outside of the Elevators.  And most of those were the SAME conversations with slightly different answers/responses.  Aside from that...?

Also, there are moments during loyalty missions where characters will respond to each other's comments, and occasionally in missions themselves.  But it's usually only a single line or so.  Really, the character interaction in ME2 feels no more lacking than ME1, yet this wasn't raised as an issue back then?

ME1 wasn't a character driven plot either.  Besides, the 6 squad members seemed to fit in to the story more, and didn't feel like just a bunch of merchs recruited for one mission.  There reasons for wanting to help Shepard stop Saren seemed more personal, more sincere than most of the ME2 squad's desires to stop the Collectors.

ME1 was story-driven with good characters. ME2 tried to be character-driven but was only modestly effective (as interesting or affecting as some of the character stories were they were not enough to carry the overall game really).

The characters of ME1 organically flowed into the game and mission. In ME2 it was all impersonal and check-boxy. Miranda and Jacob were kind of forced to flow into the whole thing organically by virtue or the freeze-drying of Shep at the beginning and their role in resurrecting him.

1) Shep should have been considered lost as he was held in some kind of emergency stasis rather than having him DEAD and dessicated. There'd have been no magic wierdness in resurrecting him with memories and personality intact as if nothing had happened.

2) He should have then gone back to the Alliance to try to verify TIM's spiel or to try to get official sanction to investigate or something (though as a SPECTER me thinks he has all the "sanction" he needs).

3) Reluctantly teamed up with Miranda and Jacob to do what is necessary - a fairly well used tool in spy fiction/action where otherwise enemy spies join forces against another mutual threat.

4) Gone from there...

[Moiaussi]

CaptainZaysh wrote...
And yet he jumps at the chance to assassinate some Collectors.  Doesn't seem like a man agonising over the right targets to me.

And what makes the collectors the 'wrong' target? They have a reputation for abductions and/or paid kidnappings.

Because when he agrees to join he has no idea the Collectors are connected to the Reapers (nor is there any indication he even knows what they are), and no information that the Collectors are a threat to anyone except human colonists.

And there is reason to believe they would stop with humans..... why? Not to mention whoever else they have 'collected' over the years, based on what is known of them. Above you suggest that accepting the collectors as a target is somehow bad in terms of morality, or at best amoral, yet you admit that the collectors are abducting humans. I take it you consider protecting humans is somehow wrong?

If you look at everybody who fought in those wars they will have had some motivation to do so.  Patriotism, fear of consequences of refusal, desire for adventure, etc.  None of those reasons apply to Thane (nor pretty much any other member of the crew bar the two Cerberus agents).

I am talking about those who volunteered, so consequences don't apply. You seem to feel that noone actually signed up because they thought German expansionism was wrong. You don't know many vets then.

You want to know Thane's real motivation for joining Shepard?  Here it is: because the script said so.

That is s**tty writing, Mou.  I really love playing ME and ME2, and I think they are wonderful games, but having important characters make bizarre out of character decisions in order to make the story work is just straight up s**tty writing.

Just because you can't understand Thane's motives does not mean people don't really feel that way in reality. And by the way, everyone's motives in fiction is 'because the script says so.' If you are too busy focusing on that, of course you will object to everyone's motives.

[Moiaussi]

Getorex wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Getorex wrote...
As such, he cannot generate enough force/traction/inertia to resist a 2000 to 7000 lbs pile of muscle pushing against him. Can't. He would somehow have to transform his weight to about the equivalent of the SB to do so.

If only there were some kind of in-universe explanation for how Shepard could effect a change in his mass.

Really? You go there to BACK IN an explanation to make the inexplicable retroactively "reasonable"?

GAH! GAH!

More magic godd@mnit! Retroactive magic at that! GAH!

It all happens even if, as I do, you play your Shep as a soldier (not some mage biotic type). He doesn't glow (all characters using biotic powers glow, even Shep to some extent when getting all biotic-y). It STILL doesn't clear the issue. Simply nullifying the mass difference problem doesn't fix the strength issue.

Shep's melee abilities are midlin at best against all enemies in the game but they become the KEY to defeating the huge, strong rhino dude? Augmented Shep doesn't reach his all-powerful hand-to-hand augmented superhero retard strength until he hits the pinnacle in his melee against the Shadowbroker?

That PARTICULAR scene was very very comic booky. Superhero comic booky.

Hell, even in "Predator" (decent scifi action movie) Arnold Schwartzenegger can't physically handle the predator alien who kicks his @ss three ways to Sunday - and that alien was only about 50-ish+ % heavier than Ah-nold. Old Ah-nold had to resort to clever weapons tricks to take down the bigger, stronger, badder Predator. Man cannot defeat bigass aliens by roids alone!

By this point, Shep is cybered up the wazoo. That may well mean mass effect generators to provide him more traction. Does that have to be explained in detail (retroactively or not) to be a valid possible answer?

[CaptainZaysh]

Moiaussi wrote...

And what makes the collectors the 'wrong' target? They have a reputation for abductions and/or paid kidnappings.

And Thane has no compelling reason to care about this.  It's like a mob assassin deciding to repent for his past actions by striking out against a militant Hindu group.

Moiaussi wrote...


And there is reason to believe they would stop with humans..... why? Not to mention whoever else they have 'collected' over the years, based on what is known of them. Above you suggest that accepting the collectors as a target is somehow bad in terms of morality, or at best amoral, yet you admit that the collectors are abducting humans. I take it you consider protecting humans is somehow wrong?

Imagine if ME2's plot had been about the disappearance of Drell colonies.  Just as Shepard would have no compelling reason to get involved in that, Thane has no compelling reason to go on a suicide mission to prevent the disappearance of human colonies.

Moiaussi wrote...
I am talking about those who volunteered, so consequences don't apply. You seem to feel that noone actually signed up because they thought German expansionism was wrong. You don't know many vets then.

I am a former soldier, and I think that very few people truly volunteer for war because of politics.  You're right that I don't know many vets of World War II (do you?) but I do have friends who fought in combat in Iraq and Afghanistan and I can tell you that most of them wouldn't be able to tell you whether Al Qaeda is Sunni or Shi'ite.  In reality the reasons they volunteered to fight are complex and personal and hard for them to express.

In fiction we don't want that kind of ambiguity.  Star Wars would have been hugely unsatisfying if Luke were fighting the Empire for reasons he couldn't really explain.  "Well...kinda patriotism, in a way.  I guess after the Alderaan thing lots of people joined up.  Plus my uncle was in the Rebellion so it's in my family I suppose."

Moiaussi wrote...
Just because you can't understand Thane's motives does not mean people don't really feel that way in reality. And by the way, everyone's motives in fiction is 'because the script says so.' If you are too busy focusing on that, of course you will object to everyone's motives.

Not true.  Liara has bags of motivation to fight Saren in ME1.  It's not true that she does it just because it's in the script.  Now compare her motivation with Thane's and you will see the point I am trying to make.

[Googlesaurus]

Zaysh, have you ever considered that Thane took the mission because he didn't have a clear idea how he would "make the universe a little brighter" before he died? Whether human or drell colonies were being abducted is irrelevant; the point was he was offered participation in something greater than what he may have done otherwise if Shepard never found him.

[CaptainZaysh]

Googlesaurus wrote...

Zaysh, have you ever considered that Thane took the mission because he didn't have a clear idea how he would "make the universe a little brighter" before he died? Whether human or drell colonies were being abducted is irrelevant; the point was he was offered participation in something greater than what he may have done otherwise if Shepard never found him.

Gods, what a weak motivation to go on a suicide mission in a space opera.  "I'd like to do something to improve the galaxy...not really sure what, though.  Attack the Collectors?  Well, sure, I guess.  They abduct people and stuff, right?  Why not."

[Googlesaurus]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Googlesaurus wrote...

Zaysh, have you ever considered that Thane took the mission because he didn't have a clear idea how he would "make the universe a little brighter" before he died? Whether human or drell colonies were being abducted is irrelevant; the point was he was offered participation in something greater than what he may have done otherwise if Shepard never found him.

Gods, what a weak motivation to go on a suicide mission in a space opera.  "I'd like to do something to improve the galaxy...not really sure what, though.  Attack the Collectors?  Well, sure, I guess.  They abduct people and stuff, right?  Why not."

What counts as a "strong" motivation for you? What reason does half the ME1 crew or half the ME2 crew have to join your mission?

Thane's going to die in a year. Does it really matter if he might die on this mission? It's not like he's not aware of the low survival possibilities. 

Modifié par Googlesaurus, 09 novembre 2010 - 09:28 .

[CaptainZaysh]

Googlesaurus wrote...

What counts as a "strong" motivation for you? 

Something better than "lack of imagination", I guess.

A good example is Liara's motivation to join the mission in ME1.  (Personally imperilled by Saren/mother working as his agent/chance to learn the truth about the Prothean extinction.)  It makes intuitive sense that she would join the crew.

Thane...not so much.

Googlesaurus wrote...

What reason does half the ME1 crew or half the ME2 crew have to join your mission?

CaptainZaysh wrote...
- Liara was an expert in the Protheans and her mother was working with Saren
- Ash lost her entire unit to Saren's geth
- Garrus was trying to take Saren down for his crimes
- Tali had discovered the proof that Saren was a traitor, and had nearly been killed for it
- Kaiden was in it for as long as Shep was, and knew the stakes
- Wrex joined Shep to complete an assignment, but had also tangled with Saren in the past

Modifié par CaptainZaysh, 09 novembre 2010 - 08:48 .

[Jebel Krong]

zaysh - liara's or anybody's reasons for joining or being recruited were just as thin in me1 as me2. she didn't know about saren or her mother till after and didn't seem bothered by the former at any stage. Garrus you didn't even need to bother recruiting....

Nightwriter wrote...

It's all clear to me now.

finally! no - wait - my sarcasm meter just exploded...

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 09 novembre 2010 - 09:08 .

[Jebel Krong]

Getorex wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Getorex wrote...
As such, he cannot generate enough force/traction/inertia to resist a 2000 to 7000 lbs pile of muscle pushing against him. Can't. He would somehow have to transform his weight to about the equivalent of the SB to do so.

If only there were some kind of in-universe explanation for how Shepard could effect a change in his mass.

Really? You go there to BACK IN an explanation to make the inexplicable retroactively "reasonable"?

GAH! GAH!

More magic godd@mnit! Retroactive magic at that! GAH!

It all happens even if, as I do, you play your Shep as a soldier (not some mage biotic type). He doesn't glow (all characters using biotic powers glow, even Shep to some extent when getting all biotic-y). It STILL doesn't clear the issue. Simply nullifying the mass difference problem doesn't fix the strength issue.

Shep's melee abilities are midlin at best against all enemies in the game but they become the KEY to defeating the huge, strong rhino dude? Augmented Shep doesn't reach his all-powerful hand-to-hand augmented superhero retard strength until he hits the pinnacle in his melee against the Shadowbroker?

That PARTICULAR scene was very very comic booky. Superhero comic booky.

Hell, even in "Predator" (decent scifi action movie) Arnold Schwartzenegger can't physically handle the predator alien who kicks his @ss three ways to Sunday - and that alien was only about 50-ish+ % heavier than Ah-nold. Old Ah-nold had to resort to clever weapons tricks to take down the bigger, stronger, badder Predator. Man cannot defeat bigass aliens by roids alone!

first: your math is waaay off.

second: consider low gravity worlds.

thirdly intelligent apex predators are rare, and unlikely to be commonly massive except on lower-G worlds as the evolutionary pressures of developing intelligence with being a predator places high evolutionary strain on carnivorous organisms (dinosaurs never managed it and they were around 200+ million years) - they tend to be about catching/killing rather than thinking.

shepard has also had the chance of massive combat upgrades, not limited to simple cybernetics, but it's safe to assume he's a cross between a terminator and JC denton with all the upgrades (muscle, skin, bone) - if he can wield a widow he can take a normal person's head off with a punch.

the shadowbroker is bipedal - so would mass nowhere near that of a rhino or any quadraped - if you knew anything about bimechanics, you'd know that, so the match is far more even than you think.

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 09 novembre 2010 - 09:10 .

[Moiaussi]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

And Thane has no compelling reason to care about this.  It's like a mob assassin deciding to repent for his past actions by striking out against a militant Hindu group.

More like a european mob assassin signing up to fight the Taliban. They see them as a threat, even if not as a direct threat to themselves or their country. Nevertheless, they seem them as a large enough threat to be worth their attention.

Imagine if ME2's plot had been about the disappearance of Drell colonies.  Just as Shepard would have no compelling reason to get involved in that, Thane has no compelling reason to go on a suicide mission to prevent the disappearance of human colonies.

1) What drell colonies?
2) Pardon? Shepard didn't know human colonies were vanishing until after being shot down. Regardless, as a Spectre, why wouldn't he care about non human colonies? Even as a non spectre, why wouldn't he care? Again, why would the assumption be that the Collectors would stop with the Drell, or the Hanar, or Elcor, or Asari, or whoever's colonies they were abducting? What's with this 'Oh its only them, who cares about them?'

I am a former soldier, and I think that very few people truly volunteer for war because of politics.  You're right that I don't know many vets of World War II (do you?) but I do have friends who fought in combat in Iraq and Afghanistan and I can tell you that most of them wouldn't be able to tell you whether Al Qaeda is Sunni or Shi'ite.  In reality the reasons they volunteered to fight are complex and personal and hard for them to express.

In fiction we don't want that kind of ambiguity.  Star Wars would have been hugely unsatisfying if Luke were fighting the Empire for reasons he couldn't really explain.  "Well...kinda patriotism, in a way.  I guess after the Alderaan thing lots of people joined up.  Plus my uncle was in the Rebellion so it's in my family I suppose."

Sadly the vets I have known from said wars have all passed away. WWII was a while ago now. WWI even further back. I haven't known any korean or vietnam war vets. I know a few people currently serving though.

I agree the reasons for volunteering are often complex, but you are actually making my point. It usually isn't 'Al Qaeda killed my family.' It might be 'Al Qaeda killed my kinsmen.' In many cases it is 'because my country tells me so' and in some it is 'it seemed like a great career, then war broke out' It is also true that we look on war differently these days. Few remember the casulty rates of either world war, or of Nam. We have gotten to the point where individual deaths are reported as great tragedies rather than accepting lists of names too long to read.

Which does sort of make the Council's paranoia about war somewhat believable... but the Asari should remember the Rachni and Krogan wars and know the importance of standing ready.

Not true.  Liara has bags of motivation to fight Saren in ME1.  It's not true that she does it just because it's in the script.  Now compare her motivation with Thane's and you will see the point I am trying to make.

But not everyone has to have the same motivations or motivation levels. What is Wrex's motivation, exactly, other than being befriended by Shepard? Not to mention, the Citadel war hasn't happened yet in ME1, so noone realizes the full threat yet, including Shepard.

[Iakus]

Jebel Krong wrote...

i agree re they could have done with a few less squadmates, but i'm kind of attached to most of them now, which says a lot about the game's success in this area, so i wouldn't like to be the one to suggest which ones should have been dropped in favour of more development for the rest.

I think we could easily have gotten by with half the squadmates we were given, and have made the remaining ones a whole lot more interesting.  Though I agree, I'd hate to have to choose which ones would go (hopefully to be held over into ME 3)  I generally like their concepts, even if I think the execution of the characters was badly flawed

[Jebel Krong]

iakus wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

i agree re they could have done with a few less squadmates, but i'm kind of attached to most of them now, which says a lot about the game's success in this area, so i wouldn't like to be the one to suggest which ones should have been dropped in favour of more development for the rest.

I think we could easily have gotten by with half the squadmates we were given, and have made the remaining ones a whole lot more interesting.  Though I agree, I'd hate to have to choose which ones would go (hopefully to be held over into ME 3)  I generally like their concepts, even if I think the execution of the characters was badly flawed

that may be the 2nd time you've semi-agreed with me, the apocalypse may well be upon us!