1700 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

cachx wrote...
Have to agree here, they really don't need to be chilhood friends or have their house burned down by collectors to be part of the story. Having a couple directly or coincidentally related to the "main thread" of the plot is fine. When you have like, 12 or more, is just too much, almost Soap Opera worthy.

Next thing you know, Somebody is going to be somebody's twin brother.

More Soap Opera worthy than killing off a main character, then bringing him/her back after a couple of years?

As to the squad mates; they don't necessarilly have to have a connection to teh Collectors/Reaper right away.  We could see them develop one over time.  Grunt or Jack can comment about Horizon, and how they are starting to understand how high the stakes are.  Samara and Thane could show a little curiosity about the Collectors and their recent activities.  They could start out ambivalent about the  mission, then grow to become more enthusiastic supporters of the cause.

Of course, for this kind of thing, we'd probably need more missions where we actually encountered the Collectors...

[Getorex]

Jebel Krong wrote...

Getorex wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Getorex wrote...
As such, he cannot generate enough force/traction/inertia to resist a 2000 to 7000 lbs pile of muscle pushing against him. Can't. He would somehow have to transform his weight to about the equivalent of the SB to do so.

If only there were some kind of in-universe explanation for how Shepard could effect a change in his mass.

Really? You go there to BACK IN an explanation to make the inexplicable retroactively "reasonable"?

GAH! GAH!

More magic godd@mnit! Retroactive magic at that! GAH!

It all happens even if, as I do, you play your Shep as a soldier (not some mage biotic type). He doesn't glow (all characters using biotic powers glow, even Shep to some extent when getting all biotic-y). It STILL doesn't clear the issue. Simply nullifying the mass difference problem doesn't fix the strength issue.

Shep's melee abilities are midlin at best against all enemies in the game but they become the KEY to defeating the huge, strong rhino dude? Augmented Shep doesn't reach his all-powerful hand-to-hand augmented superhero retard strength until he hits the pinnacle in his melee against the Shadowbroker?

That PARTICULAR scene was very very comic booky. Superhero comic booky.

Hell, even in "Predator" (decent scifi action movie) Arnold Schwartzenegger can't physically handle the predator alien who kicks his @ss three ways to Sunday - and that alien was only about 50-ish+ % heavier than Ah-nold. Old Ah-nold had to resort to clever weapons tricks to take down the bigger, stronger, badder Predator. Man cannot defeat bigass aliens by roids alone!

first: your math is waaay off.

second: consider low gravity worlds.

thirdly intelligent apex predators are rare, and unlikely to be commonly massive except on lower-G worlds as the evolutionary pressures of developing intelligence with being a predator places high evolutionary strain on carnivorous organisms (dinosaurs never managed it and they were around 200+ million years) - they tend to be about catching/killing rather than thinking.

shepard has also had the chance of massive combat upgrades, not limited to simple cybernetics, but it's safe to assume he's a cross between a terminator and JC denton with all the upgrades (muscle, skin, bone) - if he can wield a widow he can take a normal person's head off with a punch.

the shadowbroker is bipedal - so would mass nowhere near that of a rhino or any quadraped - if you knew anything about bimechanics, you'd know that, so the match is far more even than you think.

Really? I guess all those bipedal dinosaurs were impossible. HUGE ****s. Massed much more than rhinos. Iguanodon, T rex, allosaurus, etc, etc, etc. All more massive than the biggest rhino, more powerful, all bipeds. And you want to say dinosaurs were failures? Mammals have been around a mere FRACTION of the time that dinosaurs were the pinnacle class. They are actually one of the most successful vertebrate classes in all earth history. This will be true in the 23rd century too. Humans have barely been around 200,000 yrs vs the 160+/- MILLION for the dinosaur line. Birds even more! Hell, birds are nothing but feathered dinosaurs and they're still around. Until the dinosaurs finally MOSTLY went away, mammals were merely smallish shrew-like rodents.

Then one more "REALLY?!" You honestly think the writers sat down with "Newton Rules Biology" (look up the title) and designed their SB to fit with the rules? They designed him regardless of biomechanics. They designed him for looks. Period. They designed him to be HUGE and powerful and fearsomely dangerous (his entire race, in fact, and I suspect we will see more of them in ME3. Recall, they put Krogans to shame as per the story from LotSB).

And no, I am NOT way off. Look at the relative size vs Shep, Liara, and 3rd member. Look at shoulders, look at overall bulk. Unless he has hollow bones (ala birds) and has unusually light/low density muscle tissue then the SB DOES weigh at least in the neighborhood of 2000 lbs. The "big reveal" when the SB stands up after Liara's "how am I doing" line makes the point graphically.

And the fight is NO WHERE NEAR EVEN, as you claim. Not a chance. Even if you did want to ignore the clear graphic intent and relative sizes, all you need to do is consider this: lets pussify the SB and merely make him an NFL lineman. He's got twice the mass of MALE Shepard, close to 3 times the mass of fem Shep. Mass cannot be overcome by simple strength (augmentation in the handwaving used here). Strength alone cannot overcome mass AND strength. Even if you handwaved WILDLY and granted the SB and Shep equal strength, the SB still far outclasses Shep in mass. Equal strength but disparate mass - goes to the larger mass. Every time.

Before you declare someone lacking in some form of knowledge, by the way, beware. The internet hides a lot.

I was primarily critiquing the parts where they veered off course into comic booky land and diverted further from realistic-y land (or, if you prefer, veered from "truthiness"). I would just as soon stay the hell away from comic book and superhero, thank you. Far too much of that stuff - no need to go there too.

Modifié par Getorex, 09 novembre 2010 - 11:01 .

[Googlesaurus]

CaptainZayesh wrote...

Something better than "lack of imagination", I guess.

 

Comparison of crew motivations between ME1 and ME2.

ME1

Shepard: I heard this Spectre guy led an attack on Eden Prime and killed his former student. No, I didn't actually see him there but this guy told me he was there.

Garrus: Saren disgraced my people by turning his back on his Spectre responsibilities. I haven't actually found any proof of this, but I will rage until I get that evidence. Also, I hate the way C-Sec does things and want to work outside the rules with a real Spectre. 

Wrex: I think you'll get into some pretty intense fights, Shepard. I want in.

Liara: Saren tried to kill me and turned my somewhat absent mom evil. I will never mention any of this as a possible motivation for me to join the Normandy. Instead, that dream-boat Shepard takes me on for protection and I figure my knowledge on the Protheans will make me a valuable asset as well. I'm supposedly shy and not inclined to large battles with huge consequences, but we will ignore that for the rest of the game.

Ashley: I'm a stand-in for that dead guy, literally! I want to remove the stain from my family's name and I feel guilty about my entire squad dying on my watch. 

Tali: I accidentally found evidence that convicts Saren of the attack on Eden Prime. Beyond this, Shepard thought I would be an addition to the team. 

Kaidan: ...you're my commander?

ME2

Miranda: It's my job to make sure Shepard does this mission successfully.

Jacob: Hi, I come with the Cerberus package.

Garrus: Me and Shepard go way back. Alternatively, you inspired me to fight crime on Omega. Did I mention you saved my ass from being merc bait? 

Mordin: I like challenges. Saving people is nice too. 

Jack: I hate who you work for, but I had to save my own butt. 

Grunt: I don't have any real motivations except the urge to break bones (the picture books didn't do squat!). As long as you promise ass-kicking and name-taking, I'll help you. Lucky thing you woke me up on your ship. 

Thane: Yeah, things are looking bad for me. Probably be dead by next year. Wife dead because of my job, estranged son who probably hates me. This sounds like a good chance to do something good and important before I croak. 

Samara: It sounds like an impossible mission for a great noble cause. Good. 

Zaeed: I get a big paycheck plus the chance to kill my former evil business partner. 

Tali: You work for Cerberus, but I will bizarrely go multiple-personality disorder on you during my second appearance and immediately accept your offer despite voicing my concerns earlier on. 

Kasumi: You get me the greybox, I help you out. 

Legion: We've been looking for you for a long time. You, a "mere" human, defeated Sovereign.

Both games are equally character-driven in that sense. ME1 differed in that we stumbled across characters who eventually became part of our crew while trying to stop Saren, while the plot of ME2 was mostly about finding and recruiting those characters in the first place. Not all the characters need to understand or care about the severity of the threat (notice how nobody in ME1 knew Saren was going to release the Reapers until late in the game) to serve as a motivation. Do you think Wrex or Ashley had to ponder on galactic extinction to make their involvement believable? Both krogan have the exact same reason for being on Shepard's team.

Modifié par Googlesaurus, 09 novembre 2010 - 10:39 .

[Jebel Krong]

Getorex wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

Getorex wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Getorex wrote...
As such, he cannot generate enough force/traction/inertia to resist a 2000 to 7000 lbs pile of muscle pushing against him. Can't. He would somehow have to transform his weight to about the equivalent of the SB to do so.

If only there were some kind of in-universe explanation for how Shepard could effect a change in his mass.

Really? You go there to BACK IN an explanation to make the inexplicable retroactively "reasonable"?

GAH! GAH!

More magic godd@mnit! Retroactive magic at that! GAH!

It all happens even if, as I do, you play your Shep as a soldier (not some mage biotic type). He doesn't glow (all characters using biotic powers glow, even Shep to some extent when getting all biotic-y). It STILL doesn't clear the issue. Simply nullifying the mass difference problem doesn't fix the strength issue.

Shep's melee abilities are midlin at best against all enemies in the game but they become the KEY to defeating the huge, strong rhino dude? Augmented Shep doesn't reach his all-powerful hand-to-hand augmented superhero retard strength until he hits the pinnacle in his melee against the Shadowbroker?

That PARTICULAR scene was very very comic booky. Superhero comic booky.

Hell, even in "Predator" (decent scifi action movie) Arnold Schwartzenegger can't physically handle the predator alien who kicks his @ss three ways to Sunday - and that alien was only about 50-ish+ % heavier than Ah-nold. Old Ah-nold had to resort to clever weapons tricks to take down the bigger, stronger, badder Predator. Man cannot defeat bigass aliens by roids alone!

first: your math is waaay off.

second: consider low gravity worlds.

thirdly intelligent apex predators are rare, and unlikely to be commonly massive except on lower-G worlds as the evolutionary pressures of developing intelligence with being a predator places high evolutionary strain on carnivorous organisms (dinosaurs never managed it and they were around 200+ million years) - they tend to be about catching/killing rather than thinking.

shepard has also had the chance of massive combat upgrades, not limited to simple cybernetics, but it's safe to assume he's a cross between a terminator and JC denton with all the upgrades (muscle, skin, bone) - if he can wield a widow he can take a normal person's head off with a punch.

the shadowbroker is bipedal - so would mass nowhere near that of a rhino or any quadraped - if you knew anything about bimechanics, you'd know that, so the match is far more even than you think.

Really? I guess all those bipedal dinosaurs were impossible. HUGE ****s. Massed much more than rhinos. Iguanodon, T rex, allosaurus, etc, etc, etc. All more massive than the biggest rhino, more powerful, all bipeds. And you want to say dinosaurs were failures? Mammals have been around a mere FRACTION of the time that dinosaurs were the pinnacle class. They are actually one of the most successful vertebrate classes in all earth history. This will be true in the 23rd century too. Humans have barely been around 200,000 yrs vs the 160+/- MILLION for the dinosaur line. Birds even more! Hell, birds are nothing but feathered dinosaurs and they're still around. Until the dinosaurs finally MOSTLY went away, mammals were merely smallish shrew-like rodents.

Then one more "REALLY?!" You honestly think the writers sat down with "Newton Rules Biology" (look up the title) and designed their SB to fit with the rules? They designed him regardless of biomechanics. They designed him for looks. Period. They designed him to be HUGE and powerful and fearsomely dangerous (his entire race, in fact, and I suspect we will see more of them in ME3. Recall, they put Krogans to shame as per the story from LotSB).

And no, I am NOT way off. Look at the relative size vs Shep, Liara, and 3rd member. Look at shoulders, look at overall bulk. Unless he has hollow bones (ala birds) and has unusually light/low density muscle tissue then the SB DOES weigh at least in the neighborhood of 2000 lbs. The "big reveal" when the SB stands up after Liara's "how am I doing" line makes the point graphically.

And the fight is NO WHERE NEAR EVEN, as you claim. Not a chance. Even if you did want to ignore the clear graphic intent and relative sizes, all you need to do is consider this: lets pussify the SB and merely make him an NFL lineman. He's got twice the mass of MALE Shepard, close to 3 times the mass of fem Shep. Mass cannot be overcome by simple strength (augmentation in the handwaving used here). Strength alone cannot overcome mass AND strength. Even if you handwaved WILDLY and granted the SB and Shep equal strength, the SB still far outclasses Shep in mass. Equal strength but disparate mass - goes to the larger mass. Every time.

Before you declare someone lacking in some form of knowledge, by the way, beware. The internet hides a lot.

I was primarily critiquing the parts where they veered off course into comic booky land and diverted further from realistic-y land (or, if you prefer, veered from "truthiness"). I would just as soon stay the hell away from comic book and superhero, thank you. Far too much of that stuff - no need to go there too.

Best not to argue dinosaurs with an actual palaeontologist, and guess what? - i am one dimwit!: even a t-rex wouldn't have massed much more than a rhino and those things grew to around 4.5m tall and 15 long so yeah is say the shadowbroker weighed substantally less not even counting body design mechanics (posture/weight distribution/limb proportions/tail counterbalancing etc). So STFU about subjects you obviously know nothing about.

Also, more relevant is the fact that, like in grunt's introductory scene, the SB's size is exaggerated for dramatic effect, in-game it's a lot smaller.

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 09 novembre 2010 - 11:29 .

[Getorex]

Googlesaurus wrote...

CaptainZayesh wrote...

Something better than "lack of imagination", I guess.

 

Comparison of crew motivations between ME1 and ME2.

ME1

Shepard: I heard this Spectre guy led an attack on Eden Prime and killed his former student. No, I didn't actually see him there but this guy told me he was there.

Garrus: Saren disgraced my people by turning his back on his Spectre responsibilities. I haven't actually found any proof of this, but I will rage until I get that evidence. Also, I hate the way C-Sec does things and want to work outside the rules with a real Spectre. 

Wrex: I think you'll get into some pretty intense fights, Shepard. I want in.

Liara: Saren tried to kill me and turned my somewhat absent mom evil. I will never mention any of this as a possible motivation for me to join the Normandy. Instead, that dream-boat Shepard takes me on for protection and I figure my knowledge on the Protheans will make me a valuable asset as well. I'm supposedly shy and not inclined to large battles with huge consequences, but we will ignore that for the rest of the game.

Ashley: I'm a stand-in for that dead guy, literally! I want to remove the stain from my family's name and I feel guilty about my entire squad dying on my watch. 

Tali: I accidentally found evidence that convicts Saren of the attack on Eden Prime. Beyond this, Shepard thought I would be an addition to the team. 

Kaidan: ...you're my commander?

ME2

Miranda: It's my job to make sure Shepard does this mission successfully.

Jacob: Hi, I come with the Cerberus package.

Garrus: Me and Shepard go way back. Alternatively, you inspired me to fight crime on Omega. Did I mention you saved my ass from being merc bait? 

Mordin: I like challenges. Saving people is nice too. 

Jack: I hate who you work for, but I had to save my own butt. 

Grunt: I don't have any real motivations except the urge to break bones (the picture books didn't do squat!). As long as you promise ass-kicking and name-taking, I'll help you. Lucky thing you woke me up on your ship. 

Thane: Yeah, things are looking bad for me. Probably be dead by next year. Wife dead because of my job, estranged son who probably hates me. This sounds like a good chance to do something good and important before I croak. 

Samara: It sounds like an impossible mission for a great noble cause. Good. 

Zaeed: I get a big paycheck plus the chance to kill my former evil business partner. 

Tali: You work for Cerberus, but I will bizarrely go multiple-personality disorder on you during my second appearance and immediately accept your offer despite voicing my concerns earlier on. 

snip

I think you underplay a few here. Liara melds in quite nicely. She has nothing to do with her mother (they are estranged) and is not aware, at the start, of her actual role. She is a prothean expert, and that's it. Shep brings her on board because she is such an expert and Prothean artifacts and visions/tech play a major part of the situation. Clean. Organic. Smooth.

Kaiden is a military man on the crew. He is organically on the mission same as any military squad is. That's the way the military works, ya know?

Ashley is brought on board after her entire squad is eliminated. She had direct contact with the enemy that Shepard is interested in. She could go back and be reassigned to another unit or join with Shep. She's military. He's military. Organic blending again the military way (though they skipped the paperwork necessary to transfer someone from one unit to another, but you understand). Her personal motivations behind her actions and attitude are separate from the fact that she was in direct contact, pre-Shepard, with the Geth on Eden Prime.

The eye witness to the Saren attack on fellow Spectre is perfectly valid for an investigation. Police use precisely the same sort of thing to begin their own investigations. In a military situation, eye witnesses are listened to and the story is checked out. SOP. Organic.

Tali joining the ME1 team is somewhat weak but not all that weak, but it does flow OK because she has acquired information directly implicating Saren with the Geth. She is a Geth expert. She gains the friendship and trust of Shep in ME1 that carries over to ME2 (she shouldn't have required a loyalty mission to be loyal to Shep after ME1 but that's another issue - and it allowed for an interesting diversion into the Quarian fleet). She rejoins Shep in ME2 because she trusts HIM implicitly. Doesn't really strain credibility there at all. Not really.

Don't recall Wrex's motivation enough from ME1 but it was more than "you are going to crack heads and I like to crack heads!" Though barely. Krogan don't need much motivation in the ME universe to get onto teams bent on cracking heads.

Garrus was investigating Saren anyway, Shep is now investigating Saren. Hey, let's join forces!

Modifié par Getorex, 09 novembre 2010 - 11:56 .

[Getorex]

Jebel Krong wrote...

Getorex wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

Getorex wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Getorex wrote...
As such, he cannot generate enough force/traction/inertia to resist a 2000 to 7000 lbs pile of muscle pushing against him. Can't. He would somehow have to transform his weight to about the equivalent of the SB to do so.

If only there were some kind of in-universe explanation for how Shepard could effect a change in his mass.

Really? You go there to BACK IN an explanation to make the inexplicable retroactively "reasonable"?

GAH! GAH!

More magic godd@mnit! Retroactive magic at that! GAH!

It all happens even if, as I do, you play your Shep as a soldier (not some mage biotic type). He doesn't glow (all characters using biotic powers glow, even Shep to some extent when getting all biotic-y). It STILL doesn't clear the issue. Simply nullifying the mass difference problem doesn't fix the strength issue.

Shep's melee abilities are midlin at best against all enemies in the game but they become the KEY to defeating the huge, strong rhino dude? Augmented Shep doesn't reach his all-powerful hand-to-hand augmented superhero retard strength until he hits the pinnacle in his melee against the Shadowbroker?

That PARTICULAR scene was very very comic booky. Superhero comic booky.

Hell, even in "Predator" (decent scifi action movie) Arnold Schwartzenegger can't physically handle the predator alien who kicks his @ss three ways to Sunday - and that alien was only about 50-ish+ % heavier than Ah-nold. Old Ah-nold had to resort to clever weapons tricks to take down the bigger, stronger, badder Predator. Man cannot defeat bigass aliens by roids alone!

first: your math is waaay off.

second: consider low gravity worlds.

thirdly intelligent apex predators are rare, and unlikely to be commonly massive except on lower-G worlds as the evolutionary pressures of developing intelligence with being a predator places high evolutionary strain on carnivorous organisms (dinosaurs never managed it and they were around 200+ million years) - they tend to be about catching/killing rather than thinking.

shepard has also had the chance of massive combat upgrades, not limited to simple cybernetics, but it's safe to assume he's a cross between a terminator and JC denton with all the upgrades (muscle, skin, bone) - if he can wield a widow he can take a normal person's head off with a punch.

the shadowbroker is bipedal - so would mass nowhere near that of a rhino or any quadraped - if you knew anything about bimechanics, you'd know that, so the match is far more even than you think.

Really? I guess all those bipedal dinosaurs were impossible. HUGE ****s. Massed much more than rhinos. Iguanodon, T rex, allosaurus, etc, etc, etc. All more massive than the biggest rhino, more powerful, all bipeds. And you want to say dinosaurs were failures? Mammals have been around a mere FRACTION of the time that dinosaurs were the pinnacle class. They are actually one of the most successful vertebrate classes in all earth history. This will be true in the 23rd century too. Humans have barely been around 200,000 yrs vs the 160+/- MILLION for the dinosaur line. Birds even more! Hell, birds are nothing but feathered dinosaurs and they're still around. Until the dinosaurs finally MOSTLY went away, mammals were merely smallish shrew-like rodents.

Then one more "REALLY?!" You honestly think the writers sat down with "Newton Rules Biology" (look up the title) and designed their SB to fit with the rules? They designed him regardless of biomechanics. They designed him for looks. Period. They designed him to be HUGE and powerful and fearsomely dangerous (his entire race, in fact, and I suspect we will see more of them in ME3. Recall, they put Krogans to shame as per the story from LotSB).

And no, I am NOT way off. Look at the relative size vs Shep, Liara, and 3rd member. Look at shoulders, look at overall bulk. Unless he has hollow bones (ala birds) and has unusually light/low density muscle tissue then the SB DOES weigh at least in the neighborhood of 2000 lbs. The "big reveal" when the SB stands up after Liara's "how am I doing" line makes the point graphically.

And the fight is NO WHERE NEAR EVEN, as you claim. Not a chance. Even if you did want to ignore the clear graphic intent and relative sizes, all you need to do is consider this: lets pussify the SB and merely make him an NFL lineman. He's got twice the mass of MALE Shepard, close to 3 times the mass of fem Shep. Mass cannot be overcome by simple strength (augmentation in the handwaving used here). Strength alone cannot overcome mass AND strength. Even if you handwaved WILDLY and granted the SB and Shep equal strength, the SB still far outclasses Shep in mass. Equal strength but disparate mass - goes to the larger mass. Every time.

Before you declare someone lacking in some form of knowledge, by the way, beware. The internet hides a lot.

I was primarily critiquing the parts where they veered off course into comic booky land and diverted further from realistic-y land (or, if you prefer, veered from "truthiness"). I would just as soon stay the hell away from comic book and superhero, thank you. Far too much of that stuff - no need to go there too.

Best not to argue dinosaurs with an actual palaeontologist, and guess what? - i am one dimwit!: even a t-rex wouldn't have massed much more than a rhino and those things grew to around 4.5m tall and 15 long so yeah is say the shadowbroker weighed substantally less not even counting body design mechanics (posture/weight distribution/limb proportions/tail counterbalancing etc). So STFU about subjects you obviously know nothing about.

Also, more relevant is the fact that, like in grunt's introductory scene, the SB's size is exaggerated for dramatic effect, in-game it's a lot smaller.

Dude, you are waving your hands insanely to make ME and ALL its conceits into something scientifically accurate! It is NOT. NOT AT ALL! It is contrary to science and reality in many ways. Are you one of those that state, "I love ME because it is possible! It does a good job of including real physics, astronomy, cosmology, and biology!"

No, it doesn't. It is not "hard scifi". The fight between a 190lbs human (male Shep)/120lbs human (Fem Shep) vs that Yagh (or whatever the spelling is) is NOT equal. Augmentation or not. Cannot be. His size (SB) is NOT due to him being from a low gravity planet, but more likely quite the opposite.

Now as for T. rex: "The larger T. rex specimen at the Manchester Museum in the U.K. may have weighed almost 9 tons, or about as much as the largest African elephant. The smaller T. rex from the Museum of the Rockies in Montana could have weighed anywhere between 6 and 7.7 tons ." Biped! A friggin 9 TON BIPED vs a 3.5 to 4 ton quadruped modern white rhino! But no, impossible to have a 9 ton biped.

Since we clearly had many examples of bipeds that massed more than modern rhinos, it is also clear that one can EASILY have a biped massing in at the mere weight of a rhino. Easy.

ME is MORE "truthy" than X-men, but X-men isn't even remotely truthy at all so the comparison is extorted. SOME of ME goes into X-men territory. That is the part I decry and wish wouldn't happen.

Modifié par Getorex, 09 novembre 2010 - 11:49 .

[AtrophyOffline]

KOTOR was ok. The combat system was hardly inspiring though. As for the story the only remarkable thing about it was that it had a plot twist in the middle - even still I'd hardly call it the most defining moment in rpg history.



Personally I'll take a ME game over a Kotor game any day of the week - I'd prefer a universe that hasn't already been beaten to death like a dead horse.

[Googlesaurus]

Getorex wrote...

I think you underplay a few here. Liara melds in quite nicely. She has nothing to do with her mother (they are estranged) and is not aware, at the start, of her actual role. She is a prothean expert, and that's it. Shep brings her on board because she is such an expert and Prothean artifacts and visions/tech play a major part of the situation. Clean. Organic. Smooth.

Plot motivation, not personal motivation. Zayesh is confusing the two. 

Getorex wrote...

Kaiden is a military man on the crew. He is organically on the mission same as any military squad is. That's the way the military works, ya know?

That's his duty. How is that "deeper" than the squadmate motivations in ME2? Answer: it isn't. 

Getorex wrote...

Ashley is brought on board after her entire squad is eliminated.

Exactly my point. She didn't volunteer, she wasn't recruited with the whole "rescue the galaxy" shtick. She was reassigned by Captain Anderson. 

Getorex wrote...

She had direct contact with the enemy that Shepard is interested in. She could go back and be reassigned to another unit or join with Shep. She's military. He's military. Organic blending again the military way (though they skipped the paperwork necessary to transfer someone from one unit to another, but you understand). Her personal motivations behind her actions and attitude are separate from the fact that she was in direct contact, pre-Shepard, with the Geth on Eden Prime.

Those aren't her motivations. 

Getorex wrote...

The eye witness to the Saren attack on fellow Spectre is perfectly valid for an investigation. Police use precisely the same sort of thing to begin their own investigations. In a military situation, eye witnesses are listened to and the story is checked out. SOP. Organic.

One eyewitness says that he heard Nihlus say the name "Saren" and relax his guard. How Shepard takes the leap from "According to the eyewitness' testimony, apparently there was another turian on Eden Prime by the name of Saren" to "OMG guilty guilty guilty LIES"  is only justified by the viewer actually seeing Saren there and pulling the trigger. Shepard the character doesn't know that.

Getorex wrote...

Tali joining the ME1 team is somewhat weak but not all that weak, but it does flow OK because she has acquired information directly implicating Saren with the Geth. She is a Geth expert. She gains the friendship and trust of Shep in ME1 that carries over to ME2 (she shouldn't have required a loyalty mission to be loyal to Shep after ME1 but that's another issue - and it allowed for an interesting diversion into the Quarian fleet). She rejoins Shep in ME2 because she trusts HIM implicitly. Doesn't really strain credibility there at all. Not really.

Plot motivation. Shepard doesn't pick up every person that may have seen Saren or fought some of his army. 

How could she be a geth expert when the geth hadn't even appeared beyond the Veil until that time?

She doesn't trust Cerberus, and she must be naive if she thinks that Shepard is running the show. Yet she's not like this when they first meet on Freedom's Progress. Her immediate acceptance of the offer is the inconsistency. 

Getorex wrote...

Don't recall Wrex's motivation enough from ME1 but it was more than "you are going to crack heads and I like to crack heads!" Though barely. Krogan don't need much motivation in the ME universe to get onto teams bent on cracking heads.

It's the same as Grunt's. There are even parallels between their relative lack of reasons to do anything else. 

Getorex wrote...

Garrus was investigating Saren anyway, Shep is now investigating Saren. Hey, let's join forces!

For a guy put in charge of an investigation because Udina pressed the Council, he's awfully convinced Saren is guilty even before he finds what he needs.

[Getorex]

Iakus...it appears that the Collector base at the center of the galaxy was actually destroyed a couple million years ago, while ****** erectus was still walking the earth. We humans missed all the fun a long time ago: http://www.nasa.gov/...-structure.html




Image/depiction of the structure:

The Collectors, the Reapers, etc, etc...all ready dealt with.

Ah well. ;-)

Modifié par Getorex, 10 novembre 2010 - 02:23 .

[Infinite Legend_]

My biggest disappointment with ME2 was the scars (or lack thereof) and how mine got replaced with that cheesy generic "light" "dark" spiderweb.

[Moiaussi]

Googlesaurus wrote...

How could she be a geth expert when the geth hadn't even appeared beyond the Veil until that time?

The Quarians did originally design and build the Geth. She presumably could know anything the Quarians knew from the Morning War. That is more of an expert anywhere this side of the veil other than other Quarians. Her father being an Admiral reinforces the reasonability. His research and drive to study the Geth in ME2 reinforces it further.

For a guy put in charge of an investigation because Udina pressed the Council, he's awfully convinced Saren is guilty even before he finds what he needs.

He was a gung ho detective before meeting Shepard, and the fact that the Council refuse to declassify anything that would confirm or deny his suspicians would reinforce his beliefs. He did find heresay evidence and the Council, despite having access to better information refused to release that information or give any indication they had reviewed it themselves.

[Lumikki]

NewMessageN00b wrote...

Be it as it may, but KOTOR just blew my mind away, offering variation I now understand ME1/2 barely even touched.

Period.

Kotor story was nice, but other ways it wasn't so good. Variation? what variation?

Getorex wrote...

I think you underplay a few here.

Actually no, it was alot more neutral than your view point.

If people like something they seem to find more postive to say about it. If they dislike something they seem to find more negative to say. This is about human nature. We all have selective needs, we only take what we want, what isn't allways how it really is.

Modifié par Lumikki, 10 novembre 2010 - 09:37 .

[RiouHotaru]

While we all want this legendary thing known as "character interaction" that is whispered about, we have to the face facts: It's just not that feasible.



Why? Because writing it is far more difficult than we think. Unless someone develops a computer program to procedurally generate each conversation and interaction tree, it remains up to writers to come up with this stuff. And they can't always put together what they want. All this character interaction inevitably winds up costing time and money. Also, they can't write for every possible change or outcome. While we point out what people should've/could've/would've said (and ditto fo Shepard) the fact remains that the writing staff is only human. There will obviously be some weaknesses, some mistakes Not every idea can be accounted for.

[Jebel Krong]

Getorex wrote...

Now as for T. rex: "The larger T. rex specimen at the Manchester Museum in the U.K. may have weighed almost 9 tons, or about as much as the largest African elephant. The smaller T. rex from the Museum of the Rockies in Montana could have weighed anywhere between 6 and 7.7 tons ." Biped! A friggin 9 TON BIPED vs a 3.5 to 4 ton quadruped modern white rhino! But no, impossible to have a 9 ton biped.

yeah, i'd get some data not dating back to the forties first, kiddo - most modern estimates (based on the fact that recent research on bone thickness/structure/area etc) place adult t-rexes in the 4.5-5 ton max range. i can even cite papers - as i said i actually am a palaeontologist moron.

Getorex wrote...

Since we clearly had many examples of bipeds that massed more than modern rhinos, it is also clear that one can EASILY have a biped massing in at the mere weight of a rhino. Easy.

....which renders this point moot, of course - and a t-rex is considerably bigger than the SB was. also t-rexes interestingly had the largest brain of any dinosaur (not in relation to body size), however 80% of that is devoted to sense processing (eyes - binocular vision and olfactory - noses were about as good as sharks) - hence as i previously said total predators tend to concentrate on being able to catch/eat rather than think.

[Getorex]

RiouHotaru wrote...

While we all want this legendary thing known as "character interaction" that is whispered about, we have to the face facts: It's just not that feasible.



Why? Because writing it is far more difficult than we think. Unless someone develops a computer program to procedurally generate each conversation and interaction tree, it remains up to writers to come up with this stuff. And they can't always put together what they want. All this character interaction inevitably winds up costing time and money. Also, they can't write for every possible change or outcome. While we point out what people should've/could've/would've said (and ditto fo Shepard) the fact remains that the writing staff is only human. There will obviously be some weaknesses, some mistakes Not every idea can be accounted for.

I agree with this and have often used it as a "defense" (of sorts) for the weaknesses of the game. That doesn't mean that recognizing this as a defense negates critique.

Unless the developers actually sit down and write out a coherent story FIRST and use that as a tight map for how they will develop each game in a series, then the weaknesses pointed at here will continue. I've mentioned it before but Babylon 5 was THE model for how to do this right: The creator/director of Babylon 5 had the entire series mapped out BEFORE he ever began shooting. The primary story was written in stone. That did leave room for "side missions" (so to speak) that worked to flesh out the universe or fill in gaps, but the main story was set from day one. This happens, then this, the response is this, etc, etc. From that map all else followed (including dialog, the nature and location and participants). Bioware and ME developers didn't do this (and NO game developer tends to do this). They are focused on profitability now and near term. They pump out what works and then brainstorm or build on the past to create a contingent future game with only a rough mental draft of what will happen or how it will end.

Modifié par Getorex, 10 novembre 2010 - 02:02 .

[Getorex]

Jebel Krong wrote...

Getorex wrote...

Now as for T. rex: "The larger T. rex specimen at the Manchester Museum in the U.K. may have weighed almost 9 tons, or about as much as the largest African elephant. The smaller T. rex from the Museum of the Rockies in Montana could have weighed anywhere between 6 and 7.7 tons ." Biped! A friggin 9 TON BIPED vs a 3.5 to 4 ton quadruped modern white rhino! But no, impossible to have a 9 ton biped.

yeah, i'd get some data not dating back to the forties first, kiddo - most modern estimates (based on the fact that recent research on bone thickness/structure/area etc) place adult t-rexes in the 4.5-5 ton max range. i can even cite papers - as i said i actually am a palaeontologist moron.

Getorex wrote...

Since we clearly had many examples of bipeds that massed more than modern rhinos, it is also clear that one can EASILY have a biped massing in at the mere weight of a rhino. Easy.

....which renders this point moot, of course - and a t-rex is considerably bigger than the SB was. also t-rexes interestingly had the largest brain of any dinosaur (not in relation to body size), however 80% of that is devoted to sense processing (eyes - binocular vision and olfactory - noses were about as good as sharks) - hence as i previously said total predators tend to concentrate on being able to catch/eat rather than think.

As I haven't called you names in the past to elicit your name calling, I will ignore your use of "moron" (you really don't know who you are writing this to and I am not going to flesh it out to counter your name calling either).

The data estimating T rex weight I mention dates all the way back to 2009! Ancient history using ancient technology like LiDAR. Sue, the famous T rex was one of the subjects of the study.

All you can point to, in this very diverged, in-the-sticks offy-topicy argument are ESTIMATES of T rex weights based on the apparent "sponginess" of vertebra resulting from T rex apparently having (big surprise) a very bird-like respiratory system vs LiDAR-based body mass estimates. The detailed bone structure that results from having the air sac respiratory system makes it possible that past higher weight estimates were a little too high (but the amount of possible overestimation are debatable). That's all. Not cut-and-dried at all. LiDAR tells the tale of heavier weight, bone detail suggests possibly lower weight. In each case, the point doesn't spell a ruling against MASSIVE bipeds (quite the opposite, in fact, which you accept contrary to your original argument against ACTUAL substantial mass for the SB).

Modifié par Getorex, 10 novembre 2010 - 02:14 .

[SimonTheFrog]

Getorex wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...
... snip ...

I agree with this and have often used it as a "defense" (of sorts) for the weaknesses of the game. That doesn't mean that recognizing this as a defense negates critique.

Unless the developers actually sit down and write out a coherent story FIRST and use that as a tight map for how they will develop each game in a series, then the weaknesses pointed at here will continue. I've mentioned it before but Babylon 5 was THE model for how to do this right: The creator/director of Babylon 5 had the entire series mapped out BEFORE he ever began shooting. The primary story was written in stone. That did leave room for "side missions" (so to speak) that worked to flesh out the universe or fill in gaps, but the main story was set from day one. This happens, then this, the response is this, etc, etc. From that map all else followed (including dialog, the nature and location and participants). Bioware and ME developers didn't do this (and NO game developer tends to do this). They are focused on profitability now and near term. They pump out what works and then brainstorm or build on the past to create a contingent future game with only a rough mental draft of what will happen or how it will end.

Well, i think this is quite unusual for TV series too. But anyway, game development is really high risk due to long production cycles and high costs! When they started ME they just didn't know if there ever going to be a ME2. The chances were probably not even that high. And if there is no ME2, than there will be no ME3. So, all the planning would have been in vain. 
Investing a lot of time and money on long term plans proved to be unwise in the gaming industry due to the high risks. It's not money well spent. 

But i agree that marketing a product as "trilogy" and then not being able to tell what the second installment will be about, lest not speak of the third, is a bit disappointing. Especially if many decisions in the first part (and the second too) should have huge impacts on the following parts. You shouldn't do that if you're not sure yet how that will work out because you might not be able to come up with a convincing explanation. 

Let's hope they make the best out of it.

Modifié par SimonTheFrog, 10 novembre 2010 - 03:13 .

[Jebel Krong]

Getorex wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

Getorex wrote...

Now as for T. rex: "The larger T. rex specimen at the Manchester Museum in the U.K. may have weighed almost 9 tons, or about as much as the largest African elephant. The smaller T. rex from the Museum of the Rockies in Montana could have weighed anywhere between 6 and 7.7 tons ." Biped! A friggin 9 TON BIPED vs a 3.5 to 4 ton quadruped modern white rhino! But no, impossible to have a 9 ton biped.

yeah, i'd get some data not dating back to the forties first, kiddo - most modern estimates (based on the fact that recent research on bone thickness/structure/area etc) place adult t-rexes in the 4.5-5 ton max range. i can even cite papers - as i said i actually am a palaeontologist moron.

Getorex wrote...

Since we clearly had many examples of bipeds that massed more than modern rhinos, it is also clear that one can EASILY have a biped massing in at the mere weight of a rhino. Easy.

....which renders this point moot, of course - and a t-rex is considerably bigger than the SB was. also t-rexes interestingly had the largest brain of any dinosaur (not in relation to body size), however 80% of that is devoted to sense processing (eyes - binocular vision and olfactory - noses were about as good as sharks) - hence as i previously said total predators tend to concentrate on being able to catch/eat rather than think.

As I haven't called you names in the past to elicit your name calling, I will ignore your use of "moron" (you really don't know who you are writing this to and I am not going to flesh it out to counter your name calling either).

The data estimating T rex weight I mention dates all the way back to 2009! Ancient history using ancient technology like LiDAR. Sue, the famous T rex was one of the subjects of the study.

All you can point to, in this very diverged, in-the-sticks offy-topicy argument are ESTIMATES of T rex weights based on the apparent "sponginess" of vertebra resulting from T rex apparently having (big surprise) a very bird-like respiratory system vs LiDAR-based body mass estimates. The detailed bone structure that results from having the air sac respiratory system makes it possible that past higher weight estimates were a little too high (but the amount of possible overestimation are debatable). That's all. Not cut-and-dried at all. LiDAR tells the tale of heavier weight, bone detail suggests possibly lower weight. In each case, the point doesn't spell a ruling against MASSIVE bipeds (quite the opposite, in fact, which you accept contrary to your original argument against ACTUAL substantial mass for the SB).

wait, wait: so when i point to something it's all "ESTIMATES", but when you point to something it's "FACT" that supports your argument.....?! i see.... LiDAR estimates (and they are still that) are flawed (by their own admission) because  so many assumptions have to be made regarding volume of the animal. even then, their heaviest weight for the t-rex was only just 6000kg, and at the other scale the min was closer to 5000 (the earlier modelling by hutchinson came out nearer 7000kg), which is the heavier end of the studies conducted using bone structure estimates.

seriously i'm done with you - rot in your own ignorance for all i care.

edit: oh and btw i never argued against massive bipeds (as should be obvious as i brought dinosaurs up in the same post), but in terms of carnivores + massive + intelligence = unlikely.

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 10 novembre 2010 - 04:16 .

[CaptainZaysh]

Jeez, Jebel. I hope you're a better palaeontologist than you are a conversationalist. You jumped down his throat and called him names for daring to have an opinion on the weight of a dinosaur, and when it turns out there is contemporary research supporting his idea you storm off in a huff. You having a bad day or something?

[Iakus]

RiouHotaru wrote...

While we all want this legendary thing known as "character interaction" that is whispered about, we have to the face facts: It's just not that feasible.

Why? Because writing it is far more difficult than we think. Unless someone develops a computer program to procedurally generate each conversation and interaction tree, it remains up to writers to come up with this stuff. And they can't always put together what they want. All this character interaction inevitably winds up costing time and money. Also, they can't write for every possible change or outcome. While we point out what people should've/could've/would've said (and ditto fo Shepard) the fact remains that the writing staff is only human. There will obviously be some weaknesses, some mistakes Not every idea can be accounted for.

But Bioware has had character interaction going on in its games for years.

Baldur's Gate
Baldur's Gate 2
Neverwinter Nights:  Hordes of the Underdark
Knights of the Old Republic
and of course, Dragon Age: Origins

Every game that allowed more than one companion at a time had character interaction.  Even Mass Effect 1, though admittedly it didn't have much.  Still as a plot-focused "save the universe" game, it didn't need much to be "adequate".  ME 2, as a more character focused "build a team" game, needed more and we got virtually nothing.  Not even elevator conversations.  For a game with ME2's story, it needs more interaction, not less.  If it proves to be infeasible due to time, money, or technological limitations, then Bioware should have gone another route with the story. 

[Getorex]

Kong...last statement on this whole shebang. I do not intend to impugn you in some way. I also fully realize that I provided ESTIMATES (based on LiDAR analysis) for weight vs bone-derived analysis coming up with different ESTIMATES for the weight. I am even willing to concede that the LiDAR estimates are probably a bit high...but then it is quibbling over TONNAGE and THAT totally negates the reasonableness of the origin of this whole silly argument (Let's see, is the SB merely a 2 ton behemoth or a 5 ton behemoth? In EITHER case, it means that a "realistic" HAND-TO-HAND fight and push contest between even an "augmented" human is way outside the realistic mark - which was my point originally anyway).



What was simply my personal preference (no comic book stuff, no superhero stuff) for ME3 (and by extension, the movie treatment) - that they NOT include any similar cartoonish/comic booky elements like Shepard swinging fists and pushing a creature that clearly outclassed him in physical strength AND, more importantly, MASS. I prefer less fancifulness and more realism. Simple really. I expressed that the whole physical mano o mano bit between an over-the-top Shepard ("I guess we have to do this the hard way" with knuckle cracking - very cartoonish) conflict with a foe for which such bravado was ridiculous on its face served to push me beyond "suspension of disbelief" and plop me into analytic mode DURING THE GAME. I was there thinking, "Oh now really. C'mon." Now a BELIEVABLY augmented Shepard that could have taken on the SB directly would have had him "augmented" like the combat exoskeleton gear in "Avatar" or like Ripley used in "Aliens" when she suited up in that cargo loader thing. Reasonable.



If the SB was "merely" the size of a Krogan (or there abouts) I would have had no automatic issue with it. It's reasonable and, within the context that it is a scifi game, "believable".



I get uneasy about people who SEEM to come at this as "OH it is just sooooo realistic and could REALLY happen!" (this is more disturbing when it involves alien/human 'romantic' relations...but then I'm a biologist in RL - and no, not a B.S. biologist either - so par for the course). Sure, I can enjoy the game, 'alien romance' stuff and all, with varying degrees of head shaking but I never ever mistake the game AS IT IS with reality as it is or even as it COULD be. Some have a problem in the latter.

Modifié par Getorex, 10 novembre 2010 - 06:45 .

[Getorex]

SimonTheFrog wrote...

Getorex wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...
... snip ...

I agree with this and have often used it as a "defense" (of sorts) for the weaknesses of the game. That doesn't mean that recognizing this as a defense negates critique.

Unless the developers actually sit down and write out a coherent story FIRST and use that as a tight map for how they will develop each game in a series, then the weaknesses pointed at here will continue. I've mentioned it before but Babylon 5 was THE model for how to do this right: The creator/director of Babylon 5 had the entire series mapped out BEFORE he ever began shooting. The primary story was written in stone. That did leave room for "side missions" (so to speak) that worked to flesh out the universe or fill in gaps, but the main story was set from day one. This happens, then this, the response is this, etc, etc. From that map all else followed (including dialog, the nature and location and participants). Bioware and ME developers didn't do this (and NO game developer tends to do this). They are focused on profitability now and near term. They pump out what works and then brainstorm or build on the past to create a contingent future game with only a rough mental draft of what will happen or how it will end.

Well, i think this is quite unusual for TV series too. But anyway, game development is really high risk due to long production cycles and high costs! When they started ME they just didn't know if there ever going to be a ME2. The chances were probably not even that high. And if there is no ME2, than there will be no ME3. So, all the planning would have been in vain.
Investing a lot of time and money on long term plans proved to be unwise in the gaming industry due to the high risks. It's not money well spent.

But i agree that marketing a product as "trilogy" and then not being able to tell what the second installment will be about, lest not speak of the third, is a bit disappointing. Especially if many decisions in the first part (and the second too) should have huge impacts on the following parts. You shouldn't do that if you're not sure yet how that will work out because you might not be able to come up with a convincing explanation.

Let's hope they make the best out of it.

You are absolutely right here too. It IS unusual for TV shows (and for movies). The BEST treatment of the story/trilogy was Jackson's "Lord of the Rings" trilogy - using the already written books as tight models for the movie. Outstanding.

Not as good but reasonably close was the original "Star Wars" trilogy - though I am not sure exactly how much of the trilogy Lucas actually had planned/written out before he was filming the first one.
I can't pay attention to the remainder of the franchise after the appearance of Jar Jar, Ewoks, and toddler Skywalker flying around in a ultra-high-speed Indy 500/demolition derby races (CHILD SERVICES! SEIZE THAT CHILD! HIS PARENTS ARE OFF THEIR NUTS!). Pandering to damn children, that was. Ruined the entire thing.

[RiouHotaru]

iakus wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

While we all want this legendary thing known as "character interaction" that is whispered about, we have to the face facts: It's just not that feasible.

Why? Because writing it is far more difficult than we think. Unless someone develops a computer program to procedurally generate each conversation and interaction tree, it remains up to writers to come up with this stuff. And they can't always put together what they want. All this character interaction inevitably winds up costing time and money. Also, they can't write for every possible change or outcome. While we point out what people should've/could've/would've said (and ditto fo Shepard) the fact remains that the writing staff is only human. There will obviously be some weaknesses, some mistakes Not every idea can be accounted for.

But Bioware has had character interaction going on in its games for years.

Baldur's Gate
Baldur's Gate 2
Neverwinter Nights:  Hordes of the Underdark
Knights of the Old Republic
and of course, Dragon Age: Origins

Every game that allowed more than one companion at a time had character interaction.  Even Mass Effect 1, though admittedly it didn't have much.  Still as a plot-focused "save the universe" game, it didn't need much to be "adequate".  ME 2, as a more character focused "build a team" game, needed more and we got virtually nothing.  Not even elevator conversations.  For a game with ME2's story, it needs more interaction, not less.  If it proves to be infeasible due to time, money, or technological limitations, then Bioware should have gone another route with the story. 

Compared to ME1, ME2 did have more interaction.  And using their older games like Baldur's Gate and the like I don't think qualifies.  When the technology you have only allows for that level of quality, then of course you've got more resources to use with things like dialog.  Remember, VAs do have to get paid for their work.  More lines means lots more money spent.  Better technology means higher quality, which means more money spent.  Older games often have more memorable qualities like music and dialog to compensate for the lack of visual appeal.  You want your game to be memorable after all right?

As as much as this "defense doesn't negate critque" argument gets tossed around, I think it DOES work.  I think that they did sit down and write out the story.  But what the writing staff comes up with doesn't always correspond to what the budget or technology or time will allow for.  Look at how much dialog was cut, but still present in the files.  Perhaps the original story allowed for the interaction you wanted, but it was simply too costly to pay all the VAs for all the lines in order to make that work, not to mention the amount of space the game takes up.

Now, ME2 may have less interaction than Dragon Age, but those are also two completely different games set in two completely different settings with two completely different ideas in mind.  To say that ME should've emulated DA isn't  a sound argument.  That's like saying an apple should try to taste more like an orange.  Sure, they're both fruits that come off trees, but that's about where the similarities end.  To say that one should be more like the other is a bit of a fallicious argument.

[Nightwriter]

RiouHotaru wrote...

While we all want this legendary thing known as "character interaction" that is whispered about, we have to the face facts: It's just not that feasible.

Why? Because writing it is far more difficult than we think. Unless someone develops a computer program to procedurally generate each conversation and interaction tree, it remains up to writers to come up with this stuff. And they can't always put together what they want. All this character interaction inevitably winds up costing time and money. Also, they can't write for every possible change or outcome. While we point out what people should've/could've/would've said (and ditto fo Shepard) the fact remains that the writing staff is only human. There will obviously be some weaknesses, some mistakes Not every idea can be accounted for.

Riou, face it: anytime we say we want anything, someone is going to come along and say there wasn't enough time or money for it.

We could say we wanted the sky of Illium to be bluer, and someone would say that there just wasn't enough time or money for it. We could say we wanted a few lockers in that empty cubicle between Mordin's lab and the CIC, and someone would say there wasn't enough time or money for it. We could say we wanted our cabin bedspread to be green, and someone would say there wasn't enough time or money for it.