[quote]Il Divo wrote...
Sounds contrived. Somehow, I doubt it would run so smoothly as you say. The Alliance has up until this point been fighting to seize power. In fact, that’s the spirit behind Udina’s speech at the end where he mentions the Reapers as a mere after thought. You also fail to mention what proof there is in those records that these imaginary beings called Reapers exist. Again: new council= new rules. They do not have to bend to where we may want the plot to go. [/quote]
I'm not saying that the new Council would completely swallow Shepard's tale (or the old Council, for that matter)
I'm saying that Shepard predicted a huge living starship creature was behind everything going on with the geth and Saren. Lo and behold, a huge spaceship docks with the Citadel rather than participate with much of the attack. Maybe Shepard is On To Something That Should Not Be Dismissed out Of Hand.
As to records. We're dealing with a a galactic beauracracy. There
are records somewhere of Shepard's exploits
[quote]
No, your argument still makes no sense. Your post earlier by listing the Thorian, the Rachni, Ilos, etc, stated that Shepard has been right on several different points so the Council should go along with his claims about Reapers in Mass Effect 2. Minus the Prothean base on Ilos, as of the lockdown everything you listed in that post Shepard has already done. By your own logic, the Council should at the very least be taking his words into account and considering what he says, instead of locking his vessel down (the complete opposite). [/quote]
I'm saying that Shepard's predictions should lend credence to his statements about the Reapers. You could say that by the time of the lockdown, they partially believed Shep. But still thought they knew best. They made the wrong move, so Shep had to come to the rescue . I'd call that a rather strong case for "See what happens when you don't listen to me?"
Or, to quote Gandalf:
"The burned hand teaches best. After that advice about fire goes to the heart."
[quote]So wait a minute...because Sovereign spoke these lines to the same group (Shepard + team) as whom he spoke to on Virmire, this proves the Reapers exist to the Council...how? Shepard told them he spoke to Sovereign on Virmire and they didn’t believe that. Why should they believe him that Sovereign spoke to him on the Citadel?
Anderson: Shepard, only you spoke to Sovereign. [/quote]
Why would Shepard lie? What purpose could it possibly serve? A geth invasion is major enough. Or Tali, Garrus, Kaiden, Ash, Liara, or Wrex for that matter? Are they all mentally disturbed or credulous? Did they all conveniently forget to record anything?
It's not direct proof, no. But the geth spoke to no one. So how do they know those were geth ships?
[quote]Do we have anyone here who is an expert on reverse engineering? They could feasibly tell us whether it's possible to reverse engineer some piece of technology while being unable to identify its precise age. Until then, this is a moot point. [/quote]
I'm not (necessarilly) referring to age. I'm talking about technology. Sovereign was far and away the most powerful vessel in the fight. Stronger than the Alliance, the Citadel, or the geth ships. Notice they reverse-engineered the thanix cannon and the hardware for EDI from Sovereign, not the geth ships.
Even if Sovereign shared tech with the geth, that would still be like putting modern guns on a 19th century ironclad, and that's being generous.
[quote]
Up until this point, anyone (excluding Chorban for some odd reason) who’s attempted to study a keeper has caused it to self destruct. Or, should we assume that this changed in the aftermath of the attack? [/quote]
They also had no real reason to study the Keepers. They were innocuous caretakers of the Citadel. Toss in a more sinister purpose, and maybe it would be a good idea to take a closer look, try to find a way to scan them without blowing them up. Knowing that it's possible would only make the process easier.
[quote]
[quote]
Oh, nothing. Except that there's a port there where you can gain control of the whole Citadel. [/quote]
Do we know this to be knowledge exclusive to Shepard?[/quote]
Unknown, but likely, given that the full purpose of the Citadel was still unknown to, well, anyone by ME 1. And Garrus specifically says he's never heard of a master control unit on teh Citadel.
[quote]
So, I’m confused. What data were they misinterpreting? Sounds more like they were denying the evidence of the Reapers, just like in Mass Effect 2. Or was Captain Kirahee/Commander Rentola unable to testify to the events on Virmire during the lockdown? Still results in an illogical scenario either way. [/quote]
The Council thought Saren was going to attack the Citadel directly. Which was true, though not the way they thought. At this point, the significance of the Conduit was not known, nor was it known that the Citadel was a dark space relay with an entire fleet of Reapers on the other side. Given this, the Council's failure to investigate Ilos was thier downfall. They thought they had all the pieces already. Oops.
[quote]
The fact that Vigil even exists should say something. The examined Sovereigns remains and came up with a lot more than nothing. They're just under the insane assumption that it's geth.
Even if there's little direct evidence crying "Reaper" there's a whole heap of circumstantial evidence saying there's something Reaper-like out there [/quote]
See alternate theory below. Vigil being a VI which knows how to operate the Conduit still fits within the theory. Again, burden of proof is on you. I don't have to prove Reapers do not exist. You have to prove that they do. As of now, with little to no direct evidence I’d say belief in Reapers is more insane than belief in Geth.
[quote]
Rachni: Krogan missed an egg during the Rachni wars. Binary Helix acquired this egg and began breeding rachni. The Council has had previous knowledge/experience with the Rachni. Verdict: believable.
Saren: Until provided with evidence to the latter, you presume faith in your tools (Saren). Shepard’s ‘evidence’ at the time amounted to the testimony of a terrified human dock worker which is not compelling evidence. New information surfaces which implicates Saren as the culprit behind the attack. Saren (as an organic) could theoretically go rogue; it is conceivable. Verdict: Believable.
Reapers: Up until this point, no direct evidence has been found to indicate there exists a race of all powerful machines which for reasons unknown to us exterminate all galactic life every 50k years who have also manipulated our entire existences. As of Mass Effect’s ending, there is still no direct evidence. Sovereign is conceivable as a geth vessel, which have not been seen beyond the veil in over 300 years. Verdict: Questioning of fundamental belief and not believable.
If I told you that your best friend is lying to you, you might not believe me, but you probably could conceive of the possibility of your friend lying to you. Believing it might entail some strong emotions, but it's possible. If I told you that you're plugged into the matrix, you probably couldn't fully conceive what that means for your existence as it questions a fundamental belief you hold. That is the comparison of Rachni/Saren to Reapers. [/quote]
Yes, everything you mentioned is believable. Hoever, these are all things that are
unlikely. Yes a Spectre, even a top-notch Spectre like Saren, can go rogue. And take Matriarch Benezia with him. But how likely is that to happen? Yes a rachni egg, even a queen egg, can survive the krogan. But how likely is that? The Mu relay, the Prothean beacon, the thorian Cipher, the genophage cure, all within the realm of possibility. But all unlikely events, which Shepard has exposed over and over again. After all that, Shepard throws an even bigger, even more unlikely event on top of everything else. Are you absolutely certain you'd think he was nuts? Or would you wonder if there just might be something to it?
[quote]
Your argument can (once again) be applied throughout Mass Effect. Excluding the Citadel, everything you’ve listed can be included as an attack on Mass Effect. The mere fact that they had a video recording of Sovereign landing on Eden Prime should have been regarded as enough evidence at that point that something was already up. [/quote]
It definitely makes you wonder where he got such a ship. But I confess, when I first played I did not suspect that it was an immortal, galaxy-destroying sentient star ship
[quote]
Either one works fine, depending on the theory. But it is up to you to prove why your theory (the more complicated scenario involving belief in Reapers) should be taken seriously. [/quote]
A) The geth built their own god
or
Saren dug up a ship so powerful it can take on the entire human fleet by itself and hold its own from... somewhere...
Even the thought that it's possible for someone, geth or an unknown entity, to have the Council on edge. Sentient or not. Yet they "dismiss that claim"?
[quote]
But we're not talking about building an invasion fleet, we're talking about an impending invasion. One which the Citadel Council has already had a taste of. There are 3 or 4 different ways the Council could have put Shepard off about it in ME 2 that would have made far more sense than the route they went down. [/quote]
Which route makes more sense? The alternate theory where they believe in the Reapers but think they are gone forever? Honestly, I'm less inclined to agree. If they fully acknowledge the existence of such a threat (if), how they could think that the Reapers would willingly allow organic life to continue?[/quote]
Because there's no one left to open the dark space relay. No Sovereign, no Keeper signal. The fleet has to take the long way home. It's not a permanent solution, as demonstrated by Shepard's closing speech in ME 1. But I could imagine it would be enough to satisfy a group of self-absorbed polititcans
[quote]
Umm no, if the Council is wrong they have to explain to the galaxy how they managed to let a mere human convince them that mutant space ships which no one has ever seen before are coming to kill us. So no, they do not ‘look prudent’. Even in a scenario where (as you say) they choose to keep the truth from the world at large, they have to explain why they decided to spend so many resources researching weapons and building the largest fleet ever seen in existence to combat a non-existent threat. Impeachment (or whatever process is used) is likely to follow. [/quote]
The Citadel was attacked! Led by a flagship that ran right over a turian dreadnaught without even slowing down! And took on the entire Arcturus fleet! The source of that ship, wherever it came from, is a clear threat. If it's the geth, they may just turn around and build another one, or more than one. Heck they might build a more advanced version. If it's from somewhere else (even dark space, as Shepard insists) the source needs to be determined. If nothing else, the Citadel Fleet (and the Alliance) needs to be able to defend themselves against another such attack. The existence of such a ship (let's call it a "Sovereign-class dreadnaught" for the sake of those who don't believe in Reapers) are a military game-changer.
[quote]
1. Direct Evidence: Thus far, you have been able to show little to no direct evidence of the Reapers’ existence. Circumstantial evidence doesn’t cut it. All circumstantial evidence does is allow us to say “Hmm, well there’s nothing to disprove the existence of Reapers…”. Your actions are going to affect galactic policy, whether they tell the populus about the Reapers or not. You are convincing the Council that we face the greatest threat of our existence against an unknown foe that has never yet failed in successfully completing its genocide. As such, telling them “Reapers could exist” does not meet your burden of proof. [/quote]
The direct evidence is (conveniently) not really direct. Remnants of Sovereign and hardsuit recordings. These either (conveniently) don't exist or are (even more conveniently) somehow not enough remaining to differentiate from geth technology. If I'm metagaming, then I'd say the developers are being at least as bad.
[quote]2. Acceptance of belief: Honestly Iakus, you do make it sound as if we are declaring war on some foreign country rather than understanding the full scope of what we are dealing with. This isn’t “Oh, Japan attacked us in World War II. We should attack back!”. In acceptance of the Reapers’ existence, you are changing a fundamental belief. Once more, this isn’t mere arrogance of the Council to say they wish to avoid being proven wrong. Let me make this quite clear:
you are convincing them that their existence and that of the galaxy’s is a lie. They are now questioning a fundamental idea that they have always held to be true and as such the question becomes: what other beliefs do I hold that could be false? Your direct evidence is already little to non-existent. As such, you honestly expect any individual to take you seriously on this point when the best evidence mustered is ‘Shepard has a great reputation’?[/quote]
"Shepard has a great reputation" should at least be enough to warrant looking into his claims. Maybe the Council doesn't believe in the Reapers, precisely. Butthey sure ought to believe in Sovereign, and the possibility that there are a lot more of them out there.
[quote]
3. Consequences of Belief: The basis of any belief is the formation of habit/action. If we accept the Reapers exist, obviously certain action must be taken. And you yourself have laid the groundwork for my counter as to why acceptance of that belief is so difficult with your example of uniting the Terminus Systems. You basically just laid out the difficulty of the task ahead. If I suddenly am forced to accept the Reapers are real, what other impossible tasks lie ahead? Should the Council order a mass-exodus from the Citadel? Should they order the mass relays to be abandoned? Reapers could potentially have the ability to manipulate all this technology against us. [/quote]
Which is why I don't specify what the Council does, or even that they necessarilly make Shepard privy to their plans. What I object to is the Council not doing
anything. And in fact "dismissing this claim" out of hand.
[quote]
Again, how is it a dark space relay? Prove that the data codes actually had the ability to activate the relay and not simply to keep control from Sovereign.[/quote]
"When you reach the Citadel's master control unit, upload it (Vigil's file) to the station. It will corrupt the Citadel's security protocols and give you temporary control of the station"
Okay, so maybe Vigil's data file is just a hacking program, but it does confirm that the console was in fact a "master control"
Wow, that was long.
Modifié par iakus, 12 novembre 2010 - 06:51 .
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