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[Revan312]

Jaysonie wrote...

Dosent that make him more of a realistic character though, with his conflicting beliefs.

To me it makes it seem like Bioware was trying to have a person that works for Cerberus but shares a Paragon Shepard's belief on how terrible they are.  His reasons for leaving the alliance and working for Cerb though come off as flat and unrealistic.

"The Alliance just sat around, not doing anything, they wouldn't help solve problems quickly enough, so I joined an organization that deals in terrorism, black market tech, horrific research, pro human/anti alien politics, back room under handed sabotage and just general murder, of which I don't agree with, but at least they do stuff."

He's, like I said, a righteous individual with a sense of what's right and wrong so it makes his current employment choice all the more implausible.  Miranda makes sense, she's completely pro human and sees the ends justify the means, Jacob is her foil, he see's things in reverse, which would be fine, if he still worked for the alliance and disliked her greatly.  As it stands, they have a working relationship and an implied previous intimate relationship yet they're absolute opposites on what they find are acceptable tactics.

I never bought his character, he's way to genuine about his beliefs to openly work for an organization like Cerberus, it just comes off as a stale attempt to integrate such an individual into a terrorist cell.  Many of the crew are the same way.

Jack hates Cerberus more than anything in the world, and she hates a lot of things, so why didn't she ditch the ship the first chance she got, or try to blow it up or try and steal it.

Tali despises them for their attempted sabotage of the flotilla, a subject Quariens take extremely seriously, yet she'll hop on board the new Normandy simply because Shepard is there? If Ashely wouldn't join, even though Cerberus holds a fair amount of the same beliefs as she does, why would Tali?

Cerberus goes against almost every belief and principle Samara has followed for nearly 500 years yet because Shepard gets the name of a ship she's after, oh, I'll just make myself comfortable. <_<

The fleshing out of Cerberus into what it is known by the player, a terrorist cell with unlimited resources and power, that perpetrates unbelievable horrors in the name of humanity, has created an unrealistic atmosphere for certain characters joining the cause, Jacob being numero uno.  It just fell like a rock in a lake to me and none of the reasons for characters joining seemed genuine enough to warrant working with Cerb.

Again, just my opinion..

[Iakus]

Turin_4 wrote...

And yet of the characters in ME 1 felt more "real" to me than most of the ones in ME 2

Really? Kaidan felt more real to you in ME1 than Jacob did in ME2, just as a for-instance? That's an example of a fair comparison, since of course we can't compare Tali to Tali, since in ME2 there's more story there, we need to compare one character in ME2 who didn't show in ME1, who doesn't show in ME2 (or almost not at all).

That's a good question.  Jacob is probably one of the more "grounded in reality" characters of ME2.  He's not a "superhero"  (despite his preference for spandex of course) like Thane, Grunt, or Jack.  In fact, he's probably the one closest to the character types in ME 1

What I wouldn't have given to hear how he got mixed up with Cerberus in the first place (I have not played ME Galaxy), be able to talk to him on how he handles walking such a morally grey line   He likely has an interesting story to tell.  He's seems to have a code of ethics, and a sense of honor, yet he has to go along with Cerberus, of all people.  Unfortunately, we don't go into that, nor he time in Cerberus, or the Corsairs, or even the Alliance.  (did he attend BAat?)  All we really get from him is his dissatisfaction with politics.


So in the end, Jacob, like most of the characters in ME 2 had a lot of potential.  But he sufferes from the same problem common in the other characters: he hardly interacts with anyone or anything.   I do give him extra points for being the "vanilla mortal" among the demigods Shep has to recruit for the Suicide Mission.  He would have made for a good character for Shepard to reflect on being caught up in TIM's machinations (Jacob makes it clear early on he's suspicious of TIM, but is willing to go along provided Cerberus continues to work on stopping the Collector atacks.  He's not a "true believer" like Miranda) But yeah,  you can't round up from two and a half dimensional.

I just can't give one sentence answers, can I?

[Iakus]

Revan312 wrote...

Jaysonie wrote...

Dosent that make him more of a realistic character though, with his conflicting beliefs.

To me it makes it seem like Bioware was trying to have a person that works for Cerberus but shares a Paragon Shepard's belief on how terrible they are.  His reasons for leaving the alliance and working for Cerb though come off as flat and unrealistic.

"The Alliance just sat around, not doing anything, they wouldn't help solve problems quickly enough, so I joined an organization that deals in terrorism, black market tech, horrific research, pro human/anti alien politics, back room under handed sabotage and just general murder, of which I don't agree with, but at least they do stuff."

He's, like I said, a righteous individual with a sense of what's right and wrong so it makes his current employment choice all the more implausible.  Miranda makes sense, she's completely pro human and sees the ends justify the means, Jacob is her foil, he see's things in reverse, which would be fine, if he still worked for the alliance and disliked her greatly.  As it stands, they have a working relationship and an implied previous intimate relationship yet they're absolute opposites on what they find are acceptable tactics.

I never bought his character, he's way to genuine about his beliefs to openly work for an organization like Cerberus, it just comes off as a stale attempt to integrate such an individual into a terrorist cell.  Many of the crew are the same way.

Jack hates Cerberus more than anything in the world, and she hates a lot of things, so why didn't she ditch the ship the first chance she got, or try to blow it up or try and steal it.

Tali despises them for their attempted sabotage of the flotilla, a subject Quariens take extremely seriously, yet she'll hop on board the new Normandy simply because Shepard is there? If Ashely wouldn't join, even though Cerberus holds a fair amount of the same beliefs as she does, why would Tali?

Cerberus goes against almost every belief and principle Samara has followed for nearly 500 years yet because Shepard gets the name of a ship she's after, oh, I'll just make myself comfortable. <_<

The fleshing out of Cerberus into what it is known by the player, a terrorist cell with unlimited resources and power, that perpetrates unbelievable horrors in the name of humanity, has created an unrealistic atmosphere for certain characters joining the cause, Jacob being numero uno.  It just fell like a rock in a lake to me and none of the reasons for characters joining seemed genuine enough to warrant working with Cerb.

Again, just my opinion..

Jacob could have been a really intersting study on how desperate things were getting in the coming war against the Reapers. A truly "paragon" character who, like paragon Sheps, finds himself working for the "bad guys" to stop even worse guys 'cause the "ggod guys" can't or won't act.  Unfortunately, with the "kinder, gentler" Cerberus, they took the easy way out and sidestepped the whole issue.

Porridge, anyone?

Jack:  This

Samara:  I always thought that her recruitment should have been based on how you played the last game:  Paragon and you've got enough "street cred" to convince her to join you.  Renegade and it gets much harder, and is maybe impossible (maybe could work in reverse with Jack?)  Nah, smacks too much of consequences

Concerning the crew:  I have a goofy theory about TIM:

He wanted there to be catastrophic losses to the Normandy crew.

Think about it, he puts all his "non-true believers" in one ship on an etremely dangerous mission:  disaffected Alliance types who simply joined Cerberus to escape the political apathy of the Council, and don't necessarilly believe in human supremacy.  Kelley Chambers, who "loves" all species, not just humans, Jack, who hates Cerberus and has a scary amount of biotic power, Zaed, who has lost track of however many Cerberus agents he's killed on his contracts over the years.  Miranda, who's rift with her father has cost Cerberus some powerful and wealthy backing.  Plus a bunch of powerful and potentially troublesome aliens. 

All of Cerberus' rotten eggs in one basket, ready to go out in a blaze of glory, furthering Cerberus' ends.

It makes as much sense as anything else in the game.

Modifié par iakus, 29 septembre 2010 - 11:13 .

[Lunatic LK47]

iakus wrote...

That's just it.  Ashley, Kaiden and the others are people.  Exceptional at what they do, flawed in their personalities,  Ordinary people in an extraordinary circumstance.  And they rise to the occassion.

I don't mind the "Ordinary people in extraordinary circumstances" angle, but the thing is I've been around someone like Ashley 24/7. What makes Ash so special compared to the other person I know in real life besides the "my family is blacklisted and I hate aliens as a result" angle?

I saw  Tali as a kid away from home for the first time.  She's intimidated and amazed at the galaxy around her.  Yes she's been taught about the outside world.  She knows and how to fight, and has a variety of skills.  But she's on her own for the first time ever.  There's a difference between theory and reality.  She's lonely and talks about home and family a lot.  OVerall, I got a "kid sister" vibe around her (maybe why I find this whole Talimancer thing slightly disturbing )

While we get the sense of independence and agree on the "lil sista" angle we never got much of a chance to know her as a person at all, and she ended up being the least-developed just like you mentioned in your earlier post. I have a hard time getting a strong attachment to her if she doesn't have any emotional vulnerabilities. No single person will be all "sunshine and bunnies" optimistic 24/7/365.

Interesting, given Kaiden is the character I most closely identify with.  In either game.  No I don't get migraines, nor have I broken anyone's neck with a kick (or otherwise), nor do I have anything resembling telekinetic powers

Just out of curiosity, how do you closely identify with Kaidan as a character? The only aspect of him I can relate to is being over-cautious, and that's about it. The only thing that makes me gag when around him is that his lines just feel unnatural due to sketchy writing (i.e. I know I wouldn't say *THAT* line if I were in his shoes.), and the only saving grace is it's not as bad as the Star Wars prequel trilogy, but that's not saying much.

And yet of the characters in ME 1 felt more "real" to me than most of the ones in ME 2

I'll concede that I hated Jack, Samara, and Grunt just because of their over-the-top nature, but on the other hand, almost little from the ME1 cast aside from Wrex and Garrus made me go "I want to keep an action figure/T-shirt/ I want to be friends with that character."

[Lunatic LK47]

iakus wrote...


What I wouldn't have given to hear how he got mixed up with Cerberus in the first place (I have not played ME Galaxy), be able to talk to him on how he handles walking such a morally grey line   He likely has an interesting story to tell.  He's seems to have a code of ethics, and a sense of honor, yet he has to go along with Cerberus, of all people.  Unfortunately, we don't go into that, nor he time in Cerberus, or the Corsairs, or even the Alliance.  (did he attend BAat?)  All we really get from him is his dissatisfaction with politics.

Coming from someone who did not play Galaxy myself and read the Wiki entry, you didn't miss much.  Jacob was only on vacation when he got involved with saving the Council, and was more of a regular soldier than a Biotic user. We can argue that Jacob got his Biotic powers duriring Galaxy since he does get exposed to Element Zero at some point during that game.

So in the end, Jacob, like most of the characters in ME 2 had a lot of potential.  But he suffers from the same problem common in the other characters: he hardly interacts with anyone or anything.   I do give him extra points for being the "vanilla mortal" among the demigods Shep has to recruit for the Suicide Mission.  He would have made for a good character for Shepard to reflect on being caught up in TIM's machinations (Jacob makes it clear early on he's suspicious of TIM, but is willing to go along provided Cerberus continues to work on stopping the Collector atacks.  He's not a "true believer" like Miranda) But yeah,  you can't round up from two and a half dimensional.

I just can't give one sentence answers, can I?

I'll have to agree with you. I got drawn to him at first when we talked for the first time on the station, but nothing else happened after that. To be honest, I wouldn't blame him if he's not too interested in airing out his issues. Hell, the scary thing is I'm almost like him personality-wise.

[Iakus]

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

I don't mind the "Ordinary people in extraordinary circumstances" angle, but the thing is I've been around someone like Ashley 24/7. What makes Ash so special compared to the other person I know in real life besides the "my family is blacklisted and I hate aliens as a result" angle?

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "special"  I could list moments wehre she says or does something I would consider "special" but that would just be my opinion.  I 'm not saying you should necessarilly like the character, just that she seems like a "real person" who provews willing to face an overwhelming threat.

While we get the sense of independence and agree on the "lil sista" angle we never got much of a chance to know her as a person at all, and she ended up being the least-developed just like you mentioned in your earlier post. I have a hard time getting a strong attachment to her if she doesn't have any emotional vulnerabilities. No single person will be all "sunshine and bunnies" optimistic 24/7/365.

Well she does have this near-irrational (to me) hatred of the geth, even though she admits the quarians struck first.  Though after centuries of exile, maybe it's not so irrational at this point.

I also found how the silence of the Normandy unnerved her, since on a quarian ship, machinary going silent is typically a sign of a Bad Thing.

But yes, she is the least-developed of the ME 1 lot.  Her overwhelming popularity kinda puzzles me.  But her charctarization in ME 1 is still at least as good as any of the characters in ME 2 outside their loyalty missions.

Just out of curiosity, how do you closely identify with Kaidan as a character? The only aspect of him I can relate to is being over-cautious, and that's about it. The only thing that makes me gag when around him is that his lines just feel unnatural due to sketchy writing (i.e. I know I wouldn't say *THAT* line if I were in his shoes.), and the only saving grace is it's not as bad as the Star Wars prequel trilogy, but that's not saying much.

What lines do you think were sketchy?

I identify with him because he's more of a thinker, not prone to impulsive acts.  He likes to get along and sees people as generally good.  He keeps his cool and doesn't lose his temper.  I normally try to keep an even keel and back up my statements. 

Oh and he gets a little tongue-tied around Femshep

You don't know how many times I've had to bite my tongue to keep from saying "That's...a little extreme, Commander" to more impulsive acquaintences just because they wouldn't get the reference

I'll concede that I hated Jack, Samara, and Grunt just because of their over-the-top nature, but on the other hand, almost little from the ME1 cast aside from Wrex and Garrus made me go "I want to keep an action figure/T-shirt/ I want to be friends with that character."

Don't forget Thane "super-duper assassin" Krios, Miranda the genetically engineered "perfect" krogan human (with perfection further emphasized via outfits at least two sizes too small) and Legion, the literal "army of one"   Even Garrus got a shot of the super-soldier serum.

Interesting concepts taken way over the top.  i don't "hate" them.  I just think they should have been dialed down to an 11.  We coould have recruited the best without recruiting the "bestest EVAR!"

Modifié par iakus, 30 septembre 2010 - 12:50 .

[Iakus]

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

I'll have to agree with you. I got drawn to him at first when we talked for the first time on the station, but nothing else happened after that. To be honest, I wouldn't blame him if he's not too interested in airing out his issues. Hell, the scary thing is I'm almost like him personality-wise.

Indeed.  Jacob is another af many, many wasted opportunities in ME 2.  I found myself kinda liking him.  As a paragon player, I saw him as being in a similar situation, not liking to work with Cerberus, but seeing no other way to save the galaxy.  I could have seen him as a confidant and kindred spirit of paragon-minded Shepard.  As long as he kept his shirt on, at least...

But in the end, it came to nothing.  Because he becomes one more lifeless windup toy, just like the rest of the squad.

[Turin_4]

AcRevan312,

Jacob is a Cerberus apologist that has strong opinions but never
exercises them, which makes him look like a coward to me. At least
Miranda stays pretty consistent in her adoration of Cerby, Jacob however
is cognitive dissonance at it's best

First of all, 'cognitive dissonance' is a very human trait, not that I agree it's really a trait of Jacob's.  What Jacob is is cognizant - careful choice of words there - of a truly desperate situation.  To go the **** route on the Internet but in a different way, sometimes when the ****s are bombing the House of Commons...you team up with the Soviets if it's possible.  You just do.  That's the real world, even for Paragon Shepard, Revan.  Are we seriously going to argue about whether or not it isn't, when the threat is actually worse than evil conquerers and is in fact organic-life-destroying exteriminators and the alternative is repeatedly proven incompetent untrustworthy leadership (ie Council/Alliance?)  Anderson is only one man.

"Oh I hate what Cerberus did, but they're different now and I had
nothing to do with those experiments so....... can you help me with my
dad?"

That's not his reasoning at all, but if you're just going to put words in his mouth, it will make things easier for you.

He's a shallow yes man that only serves to take up the minority
spot on the team. Also his random hatred of Thane for being an Assassin
even though he works for an organization that performed horrific
research under the banner of pro human progression is even more
ludicrous..

Actually, his 'hatred' is mistrust, and his reasoning for working for Cerberus is that they're the ones he thinks have the best shot at taking it to the Reapers.

[Turin_4]

Moiaussi,

I stand corrected on the shields. That said, the ship was there, an easy target, and in a situation where if it went badly the Normandy could easily disengage, no second guessing there. To never engage an enemy seems as problematic as to engage only when desperate.

Why was it an easy target, just because it was stationary? If the Normandy disengages, the ship can continue its collection or depart at its leisure, and the Normandy neither saves any of the colony nor gathers any intelligence, completely negating its purposes for being there. The idea for going there wasn't: destroy Collector cruiser, it was to gather information.

As for an Alliance task force, Ashley was deployed there and with a tip (which TIM refused to allow) they would have had reason to respond. What is the point of going to the expense of arming colonies if you aren't interested in defending them? Also the fleet would have been coming to the colony's rescue, earning political points with the colony.

Wait a second. Ashley/Kaidan is exactly one person and was only there on tIM's information anyway, so the Alliance can hardly take credit for that. tIM should have informed the Alliance, "Hey, have a fleet lurking nearby!" Do you think an entire fleet might have been more easily detected than, say, an incredibly stealthy single frigate?

EDI made it clear that the distress call was fake. If there was an attack, why wouldn't the Turians investigate, distress call or not? And if TIM didn't block the transmission (how do you block such a transmission anyway without a ship near?) then the Turians would presumably have realized it was fake, and might suddenly have had reason to consider the threat real, and to take Shepard seriously.

EDI did not make it clear the entire transmission was a complete fabrication. As for how you block it, such a transmission would have to travel through FTL relays in the ME universe, and such things would of course be partially suborned by tIM, that's how. Having a ship nearby would not be necessary, just a program throughout FTL networks. It was never made clear the Turians didn't investigate, just that they hadn't investigated as of the time of the Normandy's arrival.

With TIM withholding important information, and deliberately keeping the other races out of the loop, he is ensuring that they have no reason to prepare for the coming threat.

Again, what would his possible motive for that be? That's just insane.

Until he offers that info, he doesn't even suggest Liara. He still tells you it was unexpected that Tali is cooperative. Before that he tells Shepard that she, like the other former crew, are not available and will not even tell Shepard where to contact them, even as a friend.

He did say she was involved with the Shadow Broker, possibly, and dubiously trustworthy.

And your answer explains TIM deliberately withholding information, how? If friendly ships were too distant to respond, then why the need to withhold the information from them?

First of all, you're changing the subject and again avoiding the fact that your objection has been answered. Second, you don't know that no information was forwarded, but you do make a good point: there ought to have been options after every Collector encounter - in fact after every encounter with everyone, really - to forward information to the Alliance and Council. Would have made things more plausible for a Paragon Shepard.

And we know that we hit the home base... how? It had one cruiser assigned to it. Where are all the other Collector ships based? We know there are others. That ship was identified as Collector, but an unknown hull, despite there being other encounters with said race in the past.

So you think that their home base was some other base, not the one behind their impregnable Mass Relay where they were building a gigantic human reaper and had taken tens of thousands of abducted humans? Really, moiaussi, really? I don't think it unlikely they have no other bases, I just think it extremely unlikely that this wasn't their home base. And I think you're dodging around an awful lot to avoid getting pinned down.

What, you figure Shepard should lead some sort of anti-alliance revolution to set Cerberus up as government or something?

Not at all, I'm just saying that the ME universe has lots of options available for what 'should' be done that could be more viable to fight the Reaper threat. Earth is 'united', but still with desparate, teeming poverty if I remember the codex properly. Shepard could correct that or something, harness all that human capital, etc.



But that kind of thing, and your pirate realm, honestly it's the realm of fanfiction.

[Lunatic LK47]

iakus wrote...

What lines do you think were sketchy?

I identify with him because he's more of a thinker, not prone to impulsive acts.  He likes to get along and sees people as generally good.  He keeps his cool and doesn't lose his temper.  I normally try to keep an even keel and back up my statements. 

Really hard for me to pinpoint the problematic areas exactly at the moment. I'm on the boat of "it's either how Kaidan's lines were written" or "Ralph's voice inflections give off the wrong type of acting.".  I'll post back when I can pick up very specific examples when I fire up Mass Effect 1 again, for sure (gotta love me restarting my data transfers again. >_>).

Oh and he gets a little tongue-tied around Femshep

Good thing I'm stiff dead-silent in that department right now, though I wish the Men in Black neuralyzed my high school days.

You don't know how many times I've had to bite my tongue to keep from saying "That's...a little extreme, Commander" to more impulsive acquaintences just because they wouldn't get the reference

I know Kaidan says that line when Manuel gets the punching pill. Is that what you're referring to?

Don't forget Thane "super-duper assassin" Krios, Miranda the genetically engineered "perfect" krogan human (with perfection further emphasized via outfits at least two sizes too small) and Legion, the literal "army of one"   Even Garrus got a shot of the super-soldier serum.

Just wondering, what really threw you off about Thane? Is it because of his entire backstory as "The Master Chief: Assassin Edition?" (in case you're wondering what I'm referring to: Master Chief was a soldier since six years old in the Halo novels [endorsed by Bungie])

Miranda: Okay, I'll admit the outfits are too ridiculous.

Legion: No comment.

Garrus: Just wondering, how did he get the super-soldier serum in your eyes? Is it because of him popping out head-shots like a stack of dominoes?

Interesting concepts taken way over the top.  i don't "hate" them.  I just think they should have been dialed down to an 11.  We coould have recruited the best without recruiting the "bestest EVAR!"

I can understand what you're saying and when you put it that way, I'm inclined to agree.

[Revan312]

Turin_4 wrote...

First of all, 'cognitive dissonance' is a very human trait, not that I agree it's really a trait of Jacob's. What Jacob is is cognizant - careful choice of words there - of a truly desperate situation. To go the **** route on the Internet but in a different way, sometimes when the ****s are bombing the House of Commons...you team up with the Soviets if it's possible. You just do. That's the real world, even for Paragon Shepard, Revan. Are we seriously going to argue about whether or not it isn't, when the threat is actually worse than evil conquerers and is in fact organic-life-destroying exteriminators and the alternative is repeatedly proven incompetent untrustworthy leadership (ie Council/Alliance?) Anderson is only one man.

That's not his reasoning at all, but if you're just going to put words in his mouth, it will make things easier for you.

Actually, his 'hatred' is mistrust, and his reasoning for working for Cerberus is that they're the ones he thinks have the best shot at taking it to the Reapers.

I call BS on your explanation of him teaming up with Cerby because they'll defeat the reapers, as when he joined, he didn't even know the Reapers existed. He was head of security and he says quite frankly that "They don't tell me much" so I'm inclined to believe that he doesn't really have a clue about the reaper threat until after Lazarus is completed. He says he was disillusioned with the bureaucratic mess that is the Alliance and decided to join an organization that would actually help humanity rather than sit on their laurels.

Because of his strong belief in what's right and wrong, his employment under Cerberus doesn't make sense at all. All of the Alliance pretty much hates Cerberus and they're considered a terrorist cell, let alone the council. Every time he hears about an experiment, or some piece of info on a Cerberus research facility he acts as if that's in the past, they're different now yet "they don't tell him much". <_<

Either he's super ignorant as to what Cerberus really stands for and what they have done in the past or it's simply bad writing because his character, backstory being what it is, does not fit with a group like Cerberus. It would be like Captain America joining Blackwater because they're not weighed down by bureaucracy.. It's a weak explanation and one that was obviously hastily constructed because Bioware didn't know who he was supposed to be so he was relegated to the "yes sir!" role in ME2.

Modifié par Revan312, 30 septembre 2010 - 02:29 .

[Moiaussi]

[quote]Turin_4 wrote...

Moiaussi,

Why was it an easy target, just because it was stationary? If the Normandy disengages, the ship can continue its collection or depart at its leisure, and the Normandy neither saves any of the colony nor gathers any intelligence, completely negating its purposes for being there. The idea for going there wasn't: destroy Collector cruiser, it was to gather information.[/quote]

A moving target can evade and be generally harder to predict and therefore target. A stationary target cannot. If taking out an enemy warship is bad tactics, why arm the GAURDIAN weapon systems? With the ship taken out, the ground forces would have been stranded and it might have even been possible to capture some of them.


[quote][quote]Wait a second. Ashley/Kaidan is exactly one person and was only there on tIM's information anyway, so the Alliance can hardly take credit for that. tIM should have informed the Alliance, "Hey, have a fleet lurking nearby!" Do you think an entire fleet might have been more easily detected than, say, an incredibly stealthy single frigate?[/quote][/quote]

Pardon, but the Vermire survivor isn't putting the guns in place on TIM's request. If a fleet was lurking though (and fleets can hide in the shadows of planets), the Cruiser could have been taken out shortly after it landed, and the majority of the colony could have been saved.

Also keep in mind that when the Normandy was shot down, it was spotted. The Collectors already have the means to counter its stealth.


[quote][quote]EDI did not make it clear the entire transmission was a complete fabrication. As for how you block it, such a transmission would have to travel through FTL relays in the ME universe, and such things would of course be partially suborned by tIM, that's how. Having a ship nearby would not be necessary, just a program throughout FTL networks. It was never made clear the Turians didn't investigate, just that they hadn't investigated as of the time of the Normandy's arrival.[/quote][/quote]The transmission was using protocols that the Turians had abandoned, and TIM knew that. You figure TIM can coopt com bouys to that degree with noone noticing? If so, I am not sure the reapers need the citadel. They could coopt the bouys and cripple CEC that way.

[quote]Again, what would his possible motive for that be? That's just insane.[/quote]

The motive would be that he somehow thinks he could come in as the 11th hour savior, and win all the cookies. Yes, it is insane. That is my point. It is not like it is the only insane plan out there....


[quote][quote]He did say she was involved with the Shadow Broker, possibly, and dubiously trustworthy.[/quote][/quote]Except it wouldn't have taken much digging to realize she was investigating the Shadow Broker rather than working for him. The point is that he acts that way regardingevery one of the former squad, again isolating Shepard from potential resources.


[quote][quote]First of all, you're changing the subject and again avoiding the fact that your objection has been answered. Second, you don't know that no information was forwarded, but you do make a good point: there ought to have been options after every Collector encounter - in fact after every encounter with everyone, really - to forward information to the Alliance and Council. Would have made things more plausible for a Paragon Shepard.[/quote][/quote]
Agreed. In particular the intact beacon recovered from the Blue Suns, which could have provided conclusive proof of the visions.


[quote][quote]So you think that their home base was some other base, not the one behind their impregnable Mass Relay where they were building a gigantic human reaper and had taken tens of thousands of abducted humans? Really, moiaussi, really? I don't think it unlikely they have no other bases, I just think it extremely unlikely that this wasn't their home base. And I think you're dodging around an awful lot to avoid getting pinned down.[/quote][/quote]

Yes. That base seemed dedicated to the one project. We know for an absolute fact that the collectors have other ships out there, and that they collect any and all exotic races or artifacts. There was no indication of anything of that nature on that base other than the human reaper project. Multiple bases also avoids the vulnerability issue.

[quote]Not at all, I'm just saying that the ME universe has lots of options available for what 'should' be done that could be more viable to fight the Reaper threat. Earth is 'united', but still with desparate, teeming poverty if I remember the codex properly. Shepard could correct that or something, harness all that human capital, etc.

But that kind of thing, and your pirate realm, honestly it's the realm of fanfiction.[/quote]

Actually that 'pirate realm' is not that far fetched. There are plenty of examples in science fiction that equate to just that, and even to some degree in RL. Afghanistan's resistance against the Russians, for example, or in ME, the Skyllian blitz. Check your ME history.

Modifié par Moiaussi, 30 septembre 2010 - 02:43 .

[Iakus]

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

You don't know how many times I've had to bite my tongue to keep from saying "That's...a little extreme, Commander" to more impulsive acquaintences just because they wouldn't get the reference

I know Kaidan says that line when Manuel gets the punching pill. Is that what you're referring to?

Yup, one of my favorite lines in the game

Just wondering, what really threw you off about Thane? Is it because of his entire backstory as "The Master Chief: Assassin Edition?" (in case you're wondering what I'm referring to: Master Chief was a soldier since six years old in the Halo novels [endorsed by Bungie])

Only vaguely familiar with Master Chief.  But in Thane's case, he just seems to be an ultimate killing machine.  Not a good assassin, not a great assassin, but the Platonic Assassin which all others are but a pale reflection.

But he's a nice guy, really

Garrus: Just wondering, how did he get the super-soldier serum in your eyes?  Is it because of him popping out head-shots like a stack of dominoes?

In ME 1 he was a talented, but hotheaded C-Sec agent.  In ME 2 he's a super-vigilante that can hold off three armies of mercs + a bunch of freelancers, + gunship + mechs.   All.  By.  Himself. 

[Lunatic LK47]

iakus wrote...

In ME 1 he was a talented, but hotheaded C-Sec agent.  In ME 2 he's a super-vigilante that can hold off three armies of mercs + a bunch of freelancers, + gunship + mechs.   All.  By.  Himself. 

To be fair, Garrus used only actual skill just to outlast these impossible odds unlike Grunt and Jack, not to mention he also had the luxury of military training before C-Sec. Sure, as over-the-top Garrus's situation may have been, how is it any different than Shepard with a War Hero background (who incidentally held off PLATOONS [i.e. Platoon being composed of 30 to 50 soldiers. Multiply that with any number) of invasion forces)?

[Moiaussi]

iakus wrote...

In ME 1 he was a talented, but hotheaded C-Sec agent.  In ME 2 he's a super-vigilante that can hold off three armies of mercs + a bunch of freelancers, + gunship + mechs.   All.  By.  Himself. 

As long as Shepard isn't there to distract him into standing in the middle of an open space with a gunship flying about, in a manner that begs the question how he survived anywhere near that long....

[Nightwriter]

iakus wrote...

Turin_4 wrote...

So, wait, you're telling me they failed in that concept because they didn't include squad banter even though they did include the concept of the suicide mission, loyalty missions, and members-vs.-members in a few circumstances?  C'mon, man, you're going over the top.

I don't think I am.

The suicide missions itself was an interesting idea, but overall was just...okay...The choices made were asburdly easy, and you only really needed a few of the squad members.  Plus "loyalty" turned out to be a simple on/off switch for whether they died or not.  And there's exactly two arguments.  One each Jack/Miranda and Tali/Legion.  I expected to be breaking up fights between Jack and Miranda pretty much every time I got back on board the Normandy.

Squad banter adds a third dimension.  Sure they interact with Shepard, but they don't interact with their enviroment much, or other people at all.  They certainly don't interact with the missions they're on.  Like I said in a previous post, what do other squad members have to say about killing Sidonis?  How do they feel about TIM setting them up with the Collector Ship trap?  It's these things, and the lack of interactivity between them, that keeps them as interesting concepts, but overall flat characters.  Windup toys

I don't think you're going over the top either.

A character focused game should have through the roof character focus. That means having the characters interact and form connections with each other, speak up outside of their loyalty missions, and generally make you feel like they're aware of each others' existence.

I find it most ironic that the one game that purports to be character based is the one game that feels the absolute loneliest in regards to character interaction.

[Zulu_DFA]

Nightwriter wrote...

I don't think you're going over the top either.

A character focused game should have through the roof character focus. That means having the characters interact and form connections with each other, speak up outside of their loyalty missions, and generally make you feel like they're aware of each others' existence.

I find it most ironic that the one game that purports to be character based is the one game that feels the absolute loneliest in regards to character interaction.

I've been replaying StarCraft 2 campaign recently and couldn't help thinking that there is much more life aboard the Hyperion going than on the Normandy. I guess it's because she's a huge battlecruiser.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 30 septembre 2010 - 10:51 .

[Turin_4]

Revan312,

I call BS on your explanation of him teaming up with Cerby
because they'll defeat the reapers, as when he joined, he didn't even
know the Reapers existed. He was head of security and he says quite
frankly that "They don't tell me much" so I'm inclined to believe that
he doesn't really have a clue about the reaper threat until after
Lazarus is completed. He says he was disillusioned with the bureaucratic
mess that is the Alliance and decided to join an organization that
would actually help humanity rather than sit on their laurels.

He didn't?  Sovereign attacking the Citadel was a pretty public spectacle, and do you really think Shepard's many conversations and investigations all over the galaxy were kept completely under wraps?  Of course not.  Certainly not from someone who wanted to find out the truth, and particularly not from someone who had people who were inclinded to tell him what actually happened as is obviously the case with Jacob and Cerberus.  It's much, much more likely that Jacob was incredibly disillusioned (with good reason, let's be honest) with the Council and the Alliance and very concerned about the 'geth' attack, and then along comes tIM telling him the truth about what happened.

Because of his strong belief in what's right and wrong, his
employment under Cerberus doesn't make sense at all. All of the
Alliance pretty much hates Cerberus and they're considered a terrorist
cell, let alone the council. Every time he hears about an experiment, or
some piece of info on a Cerberus research facility he acts as if that's
in the past, they're different now yet "they don't tell him much". ../../../images/forum/emoticons/angry.png

What does his belief about right and wrong tell him about working with the organization with the best crack at taking out the things that are attempting to cull the galaxy of all sapient organic life?

Either he's super ignorant as to what Cerberus really stands for and
what they have done in the past or it's simply bad writing because his
character, backstory being what it is, does not fit with a group like
Cerberus. It would be like Captain America joining Blackwater because
they're not weighed down by bureaucracy.. It's a weak explanation and
one that was obviously hastily constructed because Bioware didn't know
who he was supposed to be so he was relegated to the "yes sir!" role in
ME2.

It's funny you should cite Captain America, because you know what it'd be like?  It'd be like Captain America being allied with the Soviet Union.  Funny, that.

----

Moiaussi,

A moving target can evade and be generally harder to predict and
therefore target. A stationary target cannot. If taking out an enemy
warship is bad tactics, why arm the GAURDIAN weapon systems? With the
ship taken out, the ground forces would have been stranded and it might
have even been possible to capture some of them.

Again, first of all this assumes Shepard has some reason to know that her single armament upgrade will be enough to take out the Collector ship in just a few attacks before it can lift off, remember?  Why would Shepard know that?  You're taking the knowledge gained from the end-of-game fight - knowledge that was useful only after the shielding and armor upgrades protected you, bear in mind - and saying, "Ha!  She could have used the gun upgrade much, much sooner, obviously!"  The Collector tech is ahead of Alliance and Cerberus, and the last time the Normandy went head to head with the Collectors, they got smeared easily.  You're being critical of ME2 for not having Shepard do exactly the same thing under slightly different circumstances.

Will you just admit that it's not reasonable for Shepard to assume that her (possible-she may not even have had it at that point) one armament upgrade) would have given her the edge needed to take on the Collectors in a ship-to-ship battle?

Pardon, but the Vermire survivor isn't putting the guns in place
on TIM's request. If a fleet was lurking though (and fleets can hide in
the shadows of planets), the Cruiser could have been taken out shortly
after it landed, and the majority of the colony could have been saved.

Also
keep in mind that when the Normandy was shot down, it was spotted. The
Collectors already have the means to counter its stealth.

No, but he's putting those guns there on tIM's information, which amounts to the same thing.  C'mon.  So now you're really going to suggest it's just as easy to hide an entire fleet as it is to hide one single frigate, moiaussi?  I just want to be clear here.  Because you can 'hide it behind a planet'?  tIM didn't know the Collectors would hit Horizon.  As for the Normandy's stealth systems, we still don't know much about exactly how vulnerable its stealth is to Collector tech.  Still, be reasonable, which would you say is more likely to be detected, moiaussi?  An entire fleet or one possibly stealthed frigate?

The transmission was using protocols that the Turians had abandoned, and
TIM knew that. You figure TIM can coopt com bouys to that degree with
noone noticing? If so, I am not sure the reapers need the citadel. They
could coopt the bouys and cripple CEC that way.

Now you're just making stuff up.  Nowhere was anything said about 'protocols the Turians had abandoned'.  And who said anything about no one noticing?  tIM never said nobody would notice.  The impression I got was that this effort would be costly to Cerberus, but that in the prosecution of the war against the Collectors and the Reapers, it was deemed worth it.

The motive would be that he somehow thinks he could come in as
the 11th hour savior, and win all the cookies. Yes, it is insane. That
is my point. It is not like it is the only insane plan out there....

OK, well, the guy's obviously not insane.  We can get some traction on him being the bad guy, the villain, definitely, but he's just not insane.

Except
it wouldn't have taken much digging to realize she was investigating
the Shadow Broker rather than working for him. The point is that he acts
that way regardingevery one of the former squad, again isolating
Shepard from potential resources.

He was right, though.  Liara as presented was totally unreliable, focused exclusively on revenge and completely disinterested in helping Shepard, despite even a potential love interest.  I swear, this feels like an episode of House.

Actually that 'pirate realm' is not that far fetched. There are
plenty of examples in science fiction that equate to just that, and even
to some degree in RL. Afghanistan's resistance against the Russians,
for example, or in ME, the Skyllian blitz. Check your ME history.

This discussion shows I'm pretty well versed in ME history, and so far showing up a bit better than you on that score to be honest.  That's not what I meant.  I meant 'rally the pirates' would change ME into a radically different kind of game, that's all.  It's far-fetched in [i]that sense.

[Turin_4]

Just wanted to say, there's lots of interesting things being said, too many for me to reply to, really. Sorry. I'm not trying to ignore anyone.

[Moiaussi]

Turin_4 wrote...

Moiaussi,

Again, first of all this assumes Shepard has some reason to know that her single armament upgrade will be enough to take out the Collector ship in just a few attacks before it can lift off, remember?  Why would Shepard know that?  You're taking the knowledge gained from the end-of-game fight - knowledge that was useful only after the shielding and armor upgrades protected you, bear in mind - and saying, "Ha!  She could have used the gun upgrade much, much sooner, obviously!"  The Collector tech is ahead of Alliance and Cerberus, and the last time the Normandy went head to head with the Collectors, they got smeared easily.  You're being critical of ME2 for not having Shepard do exactly the same thing under slightly different circumstances.

Will you just admit that it's not reasonable for Shepard to assume that her (possible-she may not even have had it at that point) one armament upgrade) would have given her the edge needed to take on the Collectors in a ship-to-ship battle?

The Normandy would have gotten the first shot in and could easily have fled if it was ineffective. What you are suggesting is that the Normandy, a warship, should never engage an enemy. We learn later that even unupgraded the Normandy is a match for the Collector cruiser, albiet at risk.

Last time the Normandy didn't go 'head to head.' They went tail to head with the Collector vessel on their six at point blank range.... and the enemy got the opening shot, about as bad a situation as possible. When the Normandy catches the Collector's ship on the ground like that, the situation is almost the reverse with the advantage going to the Normandy. Seriously, pay attention to the relative tactical situations.

No, but he's putting those guns there on tIM's information, which amounts to the same thing.  C'mon.  So now you're really going to suggest it's just as easy to hide an entire fleet as it is to hide one single frigate, moiaussi?  I just want to be clear here.  Because you can 'hide it behind a planet'?  tIM didn't know the Collectors would hit Horizon.  As for the Normandy's stealth systems, we still don't know much about exactly how vulnerable its stealth is to Collector tech.  Still, be reasonable, which would you say is more likely to be detected, moiaussi?  An entire fleet or one possibly stealthed frigate?

The information was only leaked to get the Vermire survivor there, and there was a suggestion that they might be doing similar with other colonies regardless. I would say that since the Collectors were able to come up that close to the SR1 without it being able to simply go to FTL that not only were the Normandy's stealth systems completely ineffectual but the Collectors but the Collectors might even have some sort of cloak too...

There is the point though that Shepard is a grunt, not a naval officer, and Joker has all of one battle worth of experience, and even then was under Alliance CEC.

Now you're just making stuff up.  Nowhere was anything said about 'protocols the Turians had abandoned'.  And who said anything about no one noticing?  tIM never said nobody would notice.  The impression I got was that this effort would be costly to Cerberus, but that in the prosecution of the war against the Collectors and the Reapers, it was deemed worth it.

Quote at 6:27: "Turian emergency channels have secondary encryption. It is corrupted in the message. It is not possible the Illusive Man would believe the distress call was genuine."



If TIM would know it was fake, presumaby the Turians would know too. Where do you get any impression that this effort would be costly to Cerberus (other than potentially losing Shepard and the Normandy sending them into a trap unaware)?

OK, well, the guy's obviously not insane.  We can get some traction on him being the bad guy, the villain, definitely, but he's just not insane.

And your evidence of his sanity is what, exactly? Wishful thinking?

He was right, though.  Liara as presented was totally unreliable, focused exclusively on revenge and completely disinterested in helping Shepard, despite even a potential love interest.  I swear, this feels like an episode of House.

He didn't even want Shep talking to her. He didn't really want Shep talking to any of the former crew. He openly discourages such in the initial meeting. Why? He somehow knows they all would stick with whatever they are doing rather than joining Shep how, precisely? More importantly, they don't have to join Shepard to be useful to him. Liara was, for example, and provided information despite Cerberus, not because of Cerberus. TIM didn't enlist Liara to help with Samara or Thane's recruitment missions, and certainly not to wave the docking fees.

She may have been after the SB, but she still helped.

This discussion shows I'm pretty well versed in ME history, and so far showing up a bit better than you on that score to be honest.  That's not what I meant.  I meant 'rally the pirates' would change ME into a radically different kind of game, that's all.  It's far-fetched in that sense.

First of all, isn't this thread all about what kind of game ME2 turned out to be? More to the point though, why would rallying the pirates have made it 'radically different?' I take it you also object to rallying the Quarians (Tali's Loyalty mission), the Geth (accepting Legion and his loyalty mission), and reestablishing ties with Wrex (which TIM also discouraged)? Rallying any given naval power or source of troops does not mean ME has to become some sort of stategic RTS. Presumably there would still be the same degree of ground team special missions work.

For example, some of the pirates and/or merc bands might have needed more forceful persuasion, and some would resist outright. In other words, the fights against mercs could have been to a higher purpose than just "OMG, merc activity!"  We already take down clan Werloc, which even though it is done for Mordin (and to prevent a possible second Krogan uprising) also helps solidify clan Urdnot.

The seemingly complete disregard for the bigger picture in favour of chasing a single ship which is much weaker than Sovereign just is baffling.

The actual gameplay is definately improved, but the plot seems to have been tossed out the window in favour of filler.

Modifié par Moiaussi, 30 septembre 2010 - 07:30 .

[jimmyjoefro]

Still disappointed with the "cooling clips", the move to more of a third-person shooter experience over RPG, and the whole taking 3/4 of the game to find a new crew instead of simply continuing with the one from ME1.

[Iakus]

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

iakus wrote...

In ME 1 he was a talented, but hotheaded C-Sec agent.  In ME 2 he's a super-vigilante that can hold off three armies of mercs + a bunch of freelancers, + gunship + mechs.   All.  By.  Himself. 

To be fair, Garrus used only actual skill just to outlast these impossible odds unlike Grunt and Jack, not to mention he also had the luxury of military training before C-Sec. Sure, as over-the-top Garrus's situation may have been, how is it any different than Shepard with a War Hero background (who incidentally held off PLATOONS [i.e. Platoon being composed of 30 to 50 soldiers. Multiply that with any number) of invasion forces)?

In the Skyllian Blitz, War Hero Shepard led the colony's defense against the attack.  This would be any marines stationed there and/or on shore leave, plus any civilian forces there.  At one point in the fighting he/she personally plugged a hole in the colony's defenses.  Certainly not a small accomplishment by any means.  But Shep was not playing John McClane from Die Hard.  Nor taking on entire pirate armies single-handedly.  Not literally at least.

If Garrus had been holding them off with his whole team, then pushed them back with Shepard's help, only to have the gunship annihilate Garrus' team, that might have been one thing (depending on the circumstances.  Garrus doing it all by his lonesome puts him in thh "cape and cowl" range.  To me, at least.

Modifié par iakus, 30 septembre 2010 - 08:01 .

[Turin_4]

Moiaussi,

The Normandy would have gotten the first shot in and could easily
have fled if it was ineffective. What you are suggesting is that the
Normandy, a warship, should never engage an enemy. We learn later that
even unupgraded the Normandy is a match for the Collector cruiser,
albiet at risk.

OK, so the Normandy flees.  Horizon is successfully abducted, which is terrible, and no intelligence is obtained which is even worse.  Two very likely complete failures from Shepard's and tIM's perspective going into that situation.  Also, where did I ever say that the Normandy ought never engage the enemy?  I said that it was inadvisable right then.  Moiaussi, it really doesn't feel like you're actually reading what I'm saying, man.

Last time the Normandy didn't go 'head to head.' They went tail to
head with the Collector vessel on their six at point blank range.... and
the enemy got the opening shot, about as bad a situation as possible.
When the Normandy catches the Collector's ship on the ground like that,
the situation is almost the reverse with the advantage going to the
Normandy. Seriously, pay attention to the relative tactical situations.

Actually, what happened is that the Normandy relied on their stealth systems to protect them and permitted the Collector ship to line up a shot which they took, if we're going to 'pay attention to the relative tactical situations', man.  The situations weren't 'reversed', because even with the Normandy's armament upgrades - which Shepard had no way of knowing would be so effective - they still would not have gone through the Collector ship as quickly as the Collector's guns did the Normandy!

The information was only leaked to get the Vermire survivor there,
and there was a suggestion that they might be doing similar with other
colonies regardless. I would say that since the Collectors were able to
come up that close to the SR1 without it being able to simply go to FTL
that not only were the Normandy's stealth systems completely ineffectual
but the Collectors but the Collectors might even have some sort of
cloak too...

There is the point though that Shepard is a grunt,
not a naval officer, and Joker has all of one battle worth of
experience, and even then was under Alliance CEC.

What?  Shepard is a Commander, not a 'grunt'.  Though we don't know what her actual naval combat experience is, because she certainly seems to be more of a marine than a naval officer.  As to how close the Collecters were able to approach the Normandy, if I remember my Codex right, you're able to get quite close indeed if you simple use your drive and gun it really fast until you're right on top of them which is what the Collectors did.

Quote at 6:27: "Turian emergency channels have secondary
encryption. It is corrupted in the message. It is not possible the
Illusive Man would believe the distress call was genuine."

Which is different from what you said.  I remembered that line, having heard it under a week from the time you posted it.

If TIM would know it was fake, presumaby the Turians would know
too. Where do you get any impression that this effort would be costly to
Cerberus (other than potentially losing Shepard and the Normandy
sending them into a trap unaware)?

If I'm not mistaken, when you investigate that dialogue further, tIM reveals that he is delaying and obfuscating the distress signal's tramsission to the Turian Hierarchy.  Not that they somehow received it yet didn't recognize their own encryption, moiaussi.  The effort would be costly to Cerberus because it involves revealing to the Turians that their communications network is compromised, something that must certainly have cost them a great deal of money and trouble.

And your evidence of his sanity is what, exactly? Wishful thinking

Generally the person proposing something as unlikely as a character's insanity, the ball is in your court to show something that indicates insanity, since it's much, much easier to demonstrate insanity than to demonstrate sanity, man.  Nice try, though.  So far there isn't much of anything you've said that demonstrates he's insane.  The closest you've come is that he doesn't want the Council to suit up against the Reapers, a case you haven't even come close to making.

He didn't even want Shep talking to her. He didn't really want Shep
talking to any of the former crew. He openly discourages such in the
initial meeting. Why? He somehow knows they all would stick with whatever they are doing rather than joining Shep how,
precisely? More importantly, they don't have to join Shepard to be
useful to him. Liara was, for example, and provided information despite
Cerberus, not because of Cerberus. TIM didn't enlist Liara to help with
Samara or Thane's recruitment missions, and certainly not to wave the
docking fees.

Wait a second.  He doesn't want you talking to Liara, so in the entire galaxy, he sends you to Ilium?  Is that what you're selling now, moiaussi?  Really?  Or are we now going to say we couldn't possibly have gotten extremely skilled assassins and biotics anywhere else except Illium?

[Heldelance]

Quick question...

What would be the reaction if they were to add jumping and crouching onto ME3 or subsequent games?

[Moiaussi]

Turin_4 wrote...

OK, so the Normandy flees.  Horizon is successfully abducted, which is terrible, and no intelligence is obtained which is even worse.  Two very likely complete failures from Shepard's and tIM's perspective going into that situation.  Also, where did I ever say that the Normandy ought never engage the enemy?  I said that it was inadvisable right then.  Moiaussi, it really doesn't feel like you're actually reading what I'm saying, man.

Horizon is mostly abducted anyway, and the ground team could have set down regardless. If the Collector vessel dashed off to chase the Normandy, then they would have had more time. You are also assuming that the Normandy would have to flee. That is only the worst case scenario. As it turns out  they likely would not have had to flee. It is much more likely that they would have destroyed or badly wounded the Collector vessel.

It is not that I am not reading what you are  saying. It is that you don't seem to be thinking the situations through.

Actually, what happened is that the Normandy relied on their stealth systems to protect them and permitted the Collector ship to line up a shot which they took, if we're going to 'pay attention to the relative tactical situations', man.  The situations weren't 'reversed', because even with the Normandy's armament upgrades - which Shepard had no way of knowing would be so effective - they still would not have gone through the Collector ship as quickly as the Collector's guns did the Normandy!

Given that they did not expect to be visible unless they went FTL (in which case only the brief shift to FTL would have been visible), why didn't they keep their distance?

Sigh, you are not even trying to think this through. They got no shots off the first time. They were blindsided. They didn't even turn the ship in advance so that it would have been head to head. The fact remains that if you never fire at the enemy, you never learn anything about their strengths or weaknesses.

When they did their so called suicide run, what would have happened if the upgraded systems hadn't been enough? If they had fired at Horizon they would have known in advance if they would have been sufficient, in a situation they could easily flee from if need be.

What?  Shepard is a Commander, not a 'grunt'.  Though we don't know what her actual naval combat experience is, because she certainly seems to be more of a marine than a naval officer.  As to how close the Collecters were able to approach the Normandy, if I remember my Codex right, you're able to get quite close indeed if you simple use your drive and gun it really fast until you're right on top of them which is what the Collectors did.

I take it you didn't play ME1? It would explain your not knowing Shepard's background. He is a Marine, and only a ship's captain by virtue of having needed a ship assigned to him as a Spectre, taking over from Anderson, who was promoted to a desk job at the Citadel.

Shepard has prior experience riding in ships, but none running or commanding them prior to ME1, and isn't even on the Normandy SR1 in its sole combat mission in ME1 (the Citadel Battle).

Which is different from what you said.  I remembered that line, having heard it under a week from the time you posted it.

Which is completely irrelevant in that the effect of both what I remembered and the actual are the same. Hiding behind semantics now?

If I'm not mistaken, when you investigate that dialogue further, tIM reveals that he is delaying and obfuscating the distress signal's tramsission to the Turian Hierarchy.  Not that they somehow received it yet didn't recognize their own encryption, moiaussi.  The effort would be costly to Cerberus because it involves revealing to the Turians that their communications network is compromised, something that must certainly have cost them a great deal of money and trouble.

Ok, lets try this again. THE FACT THAT TIM IS DELAYING THE TURIANS GETTING THE SIGNAL IS MY POINT. Now you are ignoring my question as to what is lost by letting the Turians respond and coming back with some strange suggestion that by not blocking the transmission TIM would be somehow leaking Cerberus info to the Turians? Pardon?

Generally the person proposing something as unlikely as a character's insanity, the ball is in your court to show something that indicates insanity, since it's much, much easier to demonstrate insanity than to demonstrate sanity, man.  Nice try, though.  So far there isn't much of anything you've said that demonstrates he's insane.  The closest you've come is that he doesn't want the Council to suit up against the Reapers, a case you haven't even come close to making.

I point out questionable acts which could be considered insane, and your defence has been 'he can't be doing that because he is sane.' If you are going to claim TIM's sanity as your defence as TIM, then rationalizing everything based on an assumption that he is sane, it is back to you to prove his sanity.

If he is so sane and competent, why does he have so many operations go rogue on him?

Wait a second.  He doesn't want you talking to Liara, so in the entire galaxy, he sends you to Ilium?  Is that what you're selling now, moiaussi?  Really?  Or are we now going to say we couldn't possibly have gotten extremely skilled assassins and biotics anywhere else except Illium?

He can't keep you away from a major world like Illium without severely compromising his plans, but he certainly doesn't say 'Liara is on Illium, perhaps you should use your old relationship to see if she can help and/or provide useful information, even when Shepard asks him about her. She has a reputation for being a skilled and successful information broker, but he isn't pointing her out as a possible resource? And he sends you to Illium to get that biotic and that assassin. He doesn't say 'I suggest you get a strong biotic and a talented assassin.' He says 'check out Samara and Thane, here are their dossiers.' You are really going out of your way to find red herrings.....