Moiaussi,
[quote]
Horizon is mostly abducted anyway, and the ground team could
have set down regardless. If the Collector vessel dashed off to chase
the Normandy, then they would have had more time. You are also assuming
that the Normandy would have to flee. That is only the worst case
scenario. As it turns out they likely would not have had to flee. It is
much more likely that they would have destroyed or badly wounded the
Collector vessel.[/quote]
I don't remember how much of Horizon was abducted exactly, but I'm not sure if it was 'most', but in any event it could not have been known going into things how much it would have been. You're continually assuming Shepard ought to have known the outcome and acted accordingly.
Here is the most likely scenario as viewed by any rational commander going into that situation: the Normany attacks and is easily repelled by the Collector cruiser which despite being stationary is far from helpless (your initial statements to the contary), leaving any ground teams very, very vulnerable, and further jeapordizing the remaining colonists. It doesn't matter what 'it turns out' happened. That's not what they would have been thinking going in.
[quote]It is not that I am not reading what you are saying. It is that you don't seem to be thinking the situations through.[/quote]
Heh. Well, your definition for that term seems to be, "Well this is what would have happened and somehow Shepard should have known that, therefore..."
[quote]
Given that they did not expect to be visible unless they went FTL
(in which case only the brief shift to FTL would have been visible), why
didn't they keep their distance?[/quote]
I don't understand your question.
[quote]
Sigh, you are not even trying to think this through. They got no
shots off the first time. They were blindsided. They didn't even turn
the ship in advance so that it would have been head to head. The fact
remains that if you never fire at the enemy, you never learn anything
about their strengths or weaknesses.[/quote]
Look, instead of just being insulting, could you actually point to where I am clearly not thinking things through - as I'm doing with you - instead of just saying I am? What happened in their first encounter was that they saw the ship on their sensors for a few seconds and thought their stealth systems would work. Perfectly normal response. Then they didn't work, and the Collectors engaged, and bam. That was it. As for strengths and weaknesses, so now the only ways to learn about their strengths and weaknesses are to shoot your likely vastly understrength frigate at their overpowered cruiser?
So if I'm Woody Allen and I want to know about how Mike Tyson fights, the best way to learn about that is to stroll up to the man and pop him one on the jaw by the logic you're using, right?
[quote]
When they did their so called suicide run, what would have happened
if the upgraded systems hadn't been enough? If they had fired at Horizon
they would have known in advance if they would have been sufficient, in
a situation they could easily flee from if need be.[/quote]
By the time of the suicide run they had prepared to the limits of their capabilities, though, for a ship to ship battle. You cannot by any standards say the same of the fight at Horizon. You just can't. That's very straightforward.
[quote]
I take it you didn't play ME1? It would explain your not knowing
Shepard's background. He is a Marine, and only a ship's captain by
virtue of having needed a ship assigned to him as a Spectre, taking over
from Anderson, who was promoted to a desk job at the Citadel.[/quote]
Dude, did you not even read the lines you actually quoted? I'm just about done discussing this with you if this is a sample of how closely you pay attention. I specifically said Shepard isn't a naval officer, but if you think that a 'marine' in the ME universe cannot possibly have any kind of naval combat experience, think again, because what exactly do we know about the specifics of how Alliance warships are commanded? Not much, moiaussi. Nice attempt to score points, though.
[quote]
Which is completely irrelevant in that the effect of both what
I remembered and the actual are the same. Hiding behind semantics now?[/quote]
No, it's not irrelevant, because what you said was radically different from what actually happened. That's not semantics.
[quote]
Ok, lets try this again. THE FACT THAT TIM IS DELAYING THE TURIANS GETTING THE SIGNAL IS
MY POINT. Now you are ignoring my question as to what is lost by
letting the Turians respond and coming back with some strange suggestion
that by not blocking the transmission TIM would be somehow leaking Cerberus info to the Turians? Pardon?[/quote]
First you were saying there were no Turians at all. Now you're suggesting there are Turians but they are delayed. Which is it, Moiaussi, do you even know what you think yourself?
[quote]
I point out questionable acts which could be considered insane,
and your defence has been 'he can't be doing that because he is sane.'
If you are going to claim TIM's sanity as your defence as TIM, then
rationalizing everything based on an assumption that he is sane, it is
back to you to prove his sanity.[/quote]
Here's the 'questionable act' you've pointed out: tIM has deliberately worked to keep knowledge of the Reapers and Collecters from the Council in order to ensure that Cerberus will be the organization that at the last minute saves the day and wins everything...this in spite of him openly but skeptically endorsing Shepard's effort to go to the Council and renew limited Spectre status, remember that?
Yeah, `nuff said. I completely forgot about that. tIM didn't even object to that. I think it's safe to say we can consider this idea of yours totally killed now. tIM is not attempting to keep the Council unaware of the Reaper threat, far from it. He would like, of course, to ensure humanity is at the forefront of fighting that threat.
[quote]If he is so sane and competent, why does he have so many operations go rogue on him?[/quote]
This is a tricky question. How many operations does he have, first of all, to determine the rate at which they go rogue? Second, is it really unethical to take mindless plant life, husks, and rachni and attempt to make shock troops out of them? I think the answer to these questions is 'yes', but I don't think with a threat as bad as the Reapers that it's a slam-dunk that is so simple the question doesn't need to be asked.
[quote]
He can't keep you away from a major world like Illium without
severely compromising his plans, but he certainly doesn't say 'Liara is
on Illium, perhaps you should use your old relationship to see if she
can help and/or provide useful information, even when Shepard asks him about her.
She has a reputation for being a skilled and successful information
broker, but he isn't pointing her out as a possible resource? And he
sends you to Illium to get that biotic and that
assassin. He doesn't say 'I suggest you get a strong biotic and a
talented assassin.' He says 'check out Samara and Thane, here are their
dossiers.' You are really going out of your way to find red
herrings.....[/quote]
And you're going out of your way to acknowledge what is pretty obvious: if tIM were as gung-ho as you are insistent to suggest he is to keep you away from your old team, he simply wouldn't send you right into Liara's home. He just wouldn't. Your point hinges on the notion that in all the galaxy, there cannot be found a really really skilled biotic and assassin who can be bought, blackmailed, or persuaded to sign on. Among untold trillions and trillions and trillions of beings, with all of Cerberus's resources spent over years of research brought to bear. C'mon. That's just an untenable suggestion, and you know it.
But then again, you are the fellow who says, "tIM is trying to hide the Reapers and Collectors from the Council even though he didn't do anything to stop Shepard when she said, 'I'm going to get Council support if I can and tell them about these things.'"
Disappointment With Mass Effect 2? An Open Discussion. Volume 2
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Darth Drago
, sept. 26 2010 02:17
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#177
Posté 01 octobre 2010 - 05:05
Merlin 47
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- Members
- 523 messages
Heldelance wrote...
Quick question...
What would be the reaction if they were to add jumping and crouching onto ME3 or subsequent games?
I had enough problems with crouching in ME 1.
No thanks.
#178
Posté 01 octobre 2010 - 05:15
Iakus
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- Members
- 30 293 messages
Turin_4 wrote...
threat, far from it. He would like, of course, to ensure humanity is at the forefront of fighting that threat.If he is so sane and competent, why does he have so many operations go rogue on him?
This is a tricky question. How many operations does he have, first of all, to determine the rate at which they go rogue? Second, is it really unethical to take mindless plant life, husks, and rachni and attempt to make shock troops out of them? I think the answer to these questions is 'yes', but I don't think with a threat as bad as the Reapers that it's a slam-dunk that is so simple the question doesn't need to be asked.
This I think I can answer:
According to EDI, Cerberus never has more than a dozen projects going on at once, because TIM likes to maintain personal oversight. Any more and he starts having problems multitasking.
Given he likes to maintain "personal oversight" and so many Cerberus projects end up "going rogue", losing teams, and generally having a lot of experiments get loose and endangering the surrounding countryside, asking if TIM is truly evil or simply incompetant is a fair question. THis comes up a lot in the "save the base or destroy it" threads.
#179
Posté 01 octobre 2010 - 05:46
Nightwriter
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- Members
- 9 800 messages
Once again, I agree with iakus.
Oh, I'd like that. I don't feel like we enjoy much freedom of physical movement in ME. Shepard is very stiff and unwieldy in this way.
I really would like Shepard to be able to perform more physical animations in general.
Crouching
Sitting in chairs
Grabbing enemies as shields
Jumping
Performing biotic melee
Heldelance wrote...
Quick question...
What would be the reaction if they were to add jumping and crouching onto ME3 or subsequent games?
Oh, I'd like that. I don't feel like we enjoy much freedom of physical movement in ME. Shepard is very stiff and unwieldy in this way.
I really would like Shepard to be able to perform more physical animations in general.
Crouching
Sitting in chairs
Grabbing enemies as shields
Jumping
Performing biotic melee
#180
Posté 01 octobre 2010 - 08:19
Moiaussi
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- Members
- 2 890 messages
[quote]Turin_4 wrote...
I don't remember how much of Horizon was abducted exactly, but I'm not sure if it was 'most', but in any event it could not have been known going into things how much it would have been. You're continually assuming Shepard ought to have known the outcome and acted accordingly.
Here is the most likely scenario as viewed by any rational commander going into that situation: the Normany attacks and is easily repelled by the Collector cruiser which despite being stationary is far from helpless (your initial statements to the contary), leaving any ground teams very, very vulnerable, and further jeapordizing the remaining colonists. It doesn't matter what 'it turns out' happened. That's not what they would have been thinking going in.[/quote]
Its really funny how you figure that would have been the worst case scenario. Worst case was "The cruiser shoots the Hammerhead on its way in, since it isn't even remotely stealthy, then catches the Normandy off guard, again, shooting it down, again.
The Normandy getting shot down again instead of disengaging in time is not a given, but it is only inexplicable writing that the Hammerhead was allowed to land. Instead, the Collectors conveniently allow it to land, and then send minimal troops against the landing party, since if they actually sent the ships marine complement, it would be anti climatic later going up against the same numbers just in a slightly different environment. They even conveniently leave a heavy weapon lieing about for Shepard to pick up and use even though they faced no resistance other than Shepard.
How is what actually happened more believable than the tactics I suggested?
[quote]Heh. Well, your definition for that term seems to be, "Well this is what would have happened and somehow Shepard should have known that, therefore..."[/quote]
No, if I was saying that Shepard should have known anything in advance I wouldn't have bothered to describe likely worst cases or fall back positions. Making reasonable predictions based on what is known is not the same as hindsight. If anything, you are completely ignoring the risk Shepard took in the game as I stated above, namely that the Hammerhead gets shot down with him on it, and/or the Normandy as it approaches to drop the shuttle off.
Having good odds simply because the writers say so is not good writing. Good writing is having good odds that are believable.
[quote]I don't understand your question.[/quote]
When the Normandy was ambushed, they could have immediately accelerated away and kept their distance. The stealth should only drop if they go right to FTL speeds. Instead, the Collector vessel got close. Unless it was simply exterme bad luck and the enemy just happened to come out behind the Normany in perfect position by chance....
[quote]Look, instead of just being insulting, could you actually point to where I am clearly not thinking things through - as I'm doing with you - instead of just saying I am? What happened in their first encounter was that they saw the ship on their sensors for a few seconds and thought their stealth systems would work. Perfectly normal response. Then they didn't work, and the Collectors engaged, and bam. That was it. As for strengths and weaknesses, so now the only ways to learn about their strengths and weaknesses are to shoot your likely vastly understrength frigate at their overpowered cruiser?
So if I'm Woody Allen and I want to know about how Mike Tyson fights, the best way to learn about that is to stroll up to the man and pop him one on the jaw by the logic you're using, right?[/quote]
Pardon, but it took two shots to take down the Normandy at point blank range. That cruiser hardly seemed overpowered. In fact, the first beam hit the Normandy square amidships. It was a direct hit. It did take out much of the astrogation section, but most of the ship was still relatively intact.
The enemy did come up directly behind them and took long enough to close that they could have disengaged if Joker hadn't been so intent on playing fighter pilot. When they were ambushed the second time by the powering up Collector vessel, they were away within 2 seconds of the crew being back aboard. In the initial ambush they had significantly more time than that. If the Normandy had simply gone immediately to FTL or near FTL as soon as the enemy came up behind them, they would have been fine. This is somewhat beleiveable due to reaction times... however that goes the other way if the Normandy gets the first shot in.
As for shooting first, you seem to be completely ignoring the fact that the Normandy isn't invisible to the Collector vessel. If the Normandy doesn't shoot first, then they are giving the Collectors the chance to do so or to chase them off. Instead, the collectors conveniently ignored them (both Normandy and Shuttle). There was no way to know they would react that way. If the Normandy had come in fast and hit first, the worst case is that they could have kept going to FTL, would not have been taking the risk of letting the collectors get the first shot at the Normandy or shuttle (again), and would have learned conclusively about the Collector's ship defenses.
By the way, you also are assuming that the Normandy is undergunned. Per Garrus, the Thanix cannon would have given her the equivalent of cruiser guns. That means with the upgrade, she is overgunned for her hull, not undergunned. You are right in that still might not have been enough, but testing would have been prudent since if neccessary the Normandy could have disengaged in the time it took the Collectors to get off planet.
[quote]By the time of the suicide run they had prepared to the limits of their capabilities, though, for a ship to ship battle. You cannot by any standards say the same of the fight at Horizon. You just can't. That's very straightforward.[/quote]
The only reason they had to go alone is that TIM was withholding evidence and going out of his way to set Shepard up. They still had no clue whether the upgraded systems would have been enough and were going in to a much less advantageous situation.
That was another plot hole, btw... Their hull was breached, twice by occulus that inexplicably toned down their firepower once inside the hull. Instead of firing with hull breaching power, they suddenly fired shots that didn't harm the interior at all.
[quote]Dude, did you not even read the lines you actually quoted? I'm just about done discussing this with you if this is a sample of how closely you pay attention. I specifically said Shepard isn't a naval officer, but if you think that a 'marine' in the ME universe cannot possibly have any kind of naval combat experience, think again, because what exactly do we know about the specifics of how Alliance warships are commanded? Not much, moiaussi. Nice attempt to score points, though.[/quote]
Look, we know he didn't serve as an officer on any ships because we are told so as part of his background in ME1. Anderson started as a Marine too, but at least was transferred to the navy and served as an XO on a frigate for a while before being given command of the Normandy. We know all this. You are the one making things up. Read the Wiki. Spacer shepards can have grown up on ships, but still not as crew.
[quote]No, it's not irrelevant, because what you said was radically different from what actually happened. That's not semantics.[/quote]
If you cannot explain how it being different is relevant (which you still are not doing) then it is semantics, quibbling over specific words or phrases as a red herring to distract from the actual arguement. I am giiving you the benefit of the doubt that you don't realize you are doing so.
[quote]First you were saying there were no Turians at all. Now you're suggesting there are Turians but they are delayed. Which is it, Moiaussi, do you even know what you think yourself?[/quote]
You are losing the benefit of the doubt. You do realize the concept of multiple scenarios, don't you? And presumably can understand 'if this then this, but if that then that?'
If TIM doesn't jam the transmission it is one scenario. If he does jam the transmission it is a different scenario. Presumably you can understand that jamming is jamming and different from not jamming?
[quote]Here's the 'questionable act' you've pointed out: tIM has deliberately worked to keep knowledge of the Reapers and Collecters from the Council in order to ensure that Cerberus will be the organization that at the last minute saves the day and wins everything...this in spite of him openly but skeptically endorsing Shepard's effort to go to the Council and renew limited Spectre status, remember that?
Yeah, `nuff said. I completely forgot about that. tIM didn't even object to that. I think it's safe to say we can consider this idea of yours totally killed now. tIM is not attempting to keep the Council unaware of the Reaper threat, far from it. He would like, of course, to ensure humanity is at the forefront of fighting that threat.[/quote]
Nice straw man. You completely ignore the fact that TIM is withholding information. Just what do you think jamming transmissions is? Full disclosure? What TIM says he wants to do, and even what he believes he is doing do not neccessarily equate to him actually doing those things.
[quote]This is a tricky question. How many operations does he have, first of all, to determine the rate at which they go rogue? Second, is it really unethical to take mindless plant life, husks, and rachni and attempt to make shock troops out of them? I think the answer to these questions is 'yes', but I don't think with a threat as bad as the Reapers that it's a slam-dunk that is so simple the question doesn't need to be asked.[/quote]
First of all, he defends those operations by telling Shepard that they were rogue operations, not but attempting to defend them on any merits. Second, how many of those experiments were only started after he became aware of the Reaper threat?
As for the 'but we don't know about the successful operations' arguement, he doesn't point out any to Shepard to keep Shep on board. There is no reason to believe he has anything resembling a good track record at anything other than fund raising.
[quote]And you're going out of your way to acknowledge what is pretty obvious: if tIM were as gung-ho as you are insistent to suggest he is to keep you away from your old team, he simply wouldn't send you right into Liara's home. He just wouldn't. Your point hinges on the notion that in all the galaxy, there cannot be found a really really skilled biotic and assassin who can be bought, blackmailed, or persuaded to sign on. Among untold trillions and trillions and trillions of beings, with all of Cerberus's resources spent over years of research brought to bear. C'mon. That's just an untenable suggestion, and you know it.
But then again, you are the fellow who says, "tIM is trying to hide the Reapers and Collectors from the Council even though he didn't do anything to stop Shepard when she said, 'I'm going to get Council support if I can and tell them about these things.'"
[/quote]
I have been making the case that he is insane, not that he is stupid. Keeping you away from prior teammates is not his primary goal, merely a secondary. It therefore does not follow that he would jeapardize the rest of the mission just for that. Again, he chose those operatives presumably on a set of criteria. You tell me why those instead of simply handing Shepard the criteria? Of all those others you mention, how many would be both psycologically suited for the mission and willing to go on the mission regardless of pay? Highly competant people are simply not that common, and of that, those willing to follow someone else's lead on what is billed as a suicide mission? And are free to simply go the minute they are asked?
Think about it.
Keep in mind though that I have also been making the case that the writing is simply bad.
I don't remember how much of Horizon was abducted exactly, but I'm not sure if it was 'most', but in any event it could not have been known going into things how much it would have been. You're continually assuming Shepard ought to have known the outcome and acted accordingly.
Here is the most likely scenario as viewed by any rational commander going into that situation: the Normany attacks and is easily repelled by the Collector cruiser which despite being stationary is far from helpless (your initial statements to the contary), leaving any ground teams very, very vulnerable, and further jeapordizing the remaining colonists. It doesn't matter what 'it turns out' happened. That's not what they would have been thinking going in.[/quote]
Its really funny how you figure that would have been the worst case scenario. Worst case was "The cruiser shoots the Hammerhead on its way in, since it isn't even remotely stealthy, then catches the Normandy off guard, again, shooting it down, again.
The Normandy getting shot down again instead of disengaging in time is not a given, but it is only inexplicable writing that the Hammerhead was allowed to land. Instead, the Collectors conveniently allow it to land, and then send minimal troops against the landing party, since if they actually sent the ships marine complement, it would be anti climatic later going up against the same numbers just in a slightly different environment. They even conveniently leave a heavy weapon lieing about for Shepard to pick up and use even though they faced no resistance other than Shepard.
How is what actually happened more believable than the tactics I suggested?
[quote]Heh. Well, your definition for that term seems to be, "Well this is what would have happened and somehow Shepard should have known that, therefore..."[/quote]
No, if I was saying that Shepard should have known anything in advance I wouldn't have bothered to describe likely worst cases or fall back positions. Making reasonable predictions based on what is known is not the same as hindsight. If anything, you are completely ignoring the risk Shepard took in the game as I stated above, namely that the Hammerhead gets shot down with him on it, and/or the Normandy as it approaches to drop the shuttle off.
Having good odds simply because the writers say so is not good writing. Good writing is having good odds that are believable.
[quote]I don't understand your question.[/quote]
When the Normandy was ambushed, they could have immediately accelerated away and kept their distance. The stealth should only drop if they go right to FTL speeds. Instead, the Collector vessel got close. Unless it was simply exterme bad luck and the enemy just happened to come out behind the Normany in perfect position by chance....
[quote]Look, instead of just being insulting, could you actually point to where I am clearly not thinking things through - as I'm doing with you - instead of just saying I am? What happened in their first encounter was that they saw the ship on their sensors for a few seconds and thought their stealth systems would work. Perfectly normal response. Then they didn't work, and the Collectors engaged, and bam. That was it. As for strengths and weaknesses, so now the only ways to learn about their strengths and weaknesses are to shoot your likely vastly understrength frigate at their overpowered cruiser?
So if I'm Woody Allen and I want to know about how Mike Tyson fights, the best way to learn about that is to stroll up to the man and pop him one on the jaw by the logic you're using, right?[/quote]
Pardon, but it took two shots to take down the Normandy at point blank range. That cruiser hardly seemed overpowered. In fact, the first beam hit the Normandy square amidships. It was a direct hit. It did take out much of the astrogation section, but most of the ship was still relatively intact.
The enemy did come up directly behind them and took long enough to close that they could have disengaged if Joker hadn't been so intent on playing fighter pilot. When they were ambushed the second time by the powering up Collector vessel, they were away within 2 seconds of the crew being back aboard. In the initial ambush they had significantly more time than that. If the Normandy had simply gone immediately to FTL or near FTL as soon as the enemy came up behind them, they would have been fine. This is somewhat beleiveable due to reaction times... however that goes the other way if the Normandy gets the first shot in.
As for shooting first, you seem to be completely ignoring the fact that the Normandy isn't invisible to the Collector vessel. If the Normandy doesn't shoot first, then they are giving the Collectors the chance to do so or to chase them off. Instead, the collectors conveniently ignored them (both Normandy and Shuttle). There was no way to know they would react that way. If the Normandy had come in fast and hit first, the worst case is that they could have kept going to FTL, would not have been taking the risk of letting the collectors get the first shot at the Normandy or shuttle (again), and would have learned conclusively about the Collector's ship defenses.
By the way, you also are assuming that the Normandy is undergunned. Per Garrus, the Thanix cannon would have given her the equivalent of cruiser guns. That means with the upgrade, she is overgunned for her hull, not undergunned. You are right in that still might not have been enough, but testing would have been prudent since if neccessary the Normandy could have disengaged in the time it took the Collectors to get off planet.
[quote]By the time of the suicide run they had prepared to the limits of their capabilities, though, for a ship to ship battle. You cannot by any standards say the same of the fight at Horizon. You just can't. That's very straightforward.[/quote]
The only reason they had to go alone is that TIM was withholding evidence and going out of his way to set Shepard up. They still had no clue whether the upgraded systems would have been enough and were going in to a much less advantageous situation.
That was another plot hole, btw... Their hull was breached, twice by occulus that inexplicably toned down their firepower once inside the hull. Instead of firing with hull breaching power, they suddenly fired shots that didn't harm the interior at all.
[quote]Dude, did you not even read the lines you actually quoted? I'm just about done discussing this with you if this is a sample of how closely you pay attention. I specifically said Shepard isn't a naval officer, but if you think that a 'marine' in the ME universe cannot possibly have any kind of naval combat experience, think again, because what exactly do we know about the specifics of how Alliance warships are commanded? Not much, moiaussi. Nice attempt to score points, though.[/quote]
Look, we know he didn't serve as an officer on any ships because we are told so as part of his background in ME1. Anderson started as a Marine too, but at least was transferred to the navy and served as an XO on a frigate for a while before being given command of the Normandy. We know all this. You are the one making things up. Read the Wiki. Spacer shepards can have grown up on ships, but still not as crew.
[quote]No, it's not irrelevant, because what you said was radically different from what actually happened. That's not semantics.[/quote]
If you cannot explain how it being different is relevant (which you still are not doing) then it is semantics, quibbling over specific words or phrases as a red herring to distract from the actual arguement. I am giiving you the benefit of the doubt that you don't realize you are doing so.
[quote]First you were saying there were no Turians at all. Now you're suggesting there are Turians but they are delayed. Which is it, Moiaussi, do you even know what you think yourself?[/quote]
You are losing the benefit of the doubt. You do realize the concept of multiple scenarios, don't you? And presumably can understand 'if this then this, but if that then that?'
If TIM doesn't jam the transmission it is one scenario. If he does jam the transmission it is a different scenario. Presumably you can understand that jamming is jamming and different from not jamming?
[quote]Here's the 'questionable act' you've pointed out: tIM has deliberately worked to keep knowledge of the Reapers and Collecters from the Council in order to ensure that Cerberus will be the organization that at the last minute saves the day and wins everything...this in spite of him openly but skeptically endorsing Shepard's effort to go to the Council and renew limited Spectre status, remember that?
Yeah, `nuff said. I completely forgot about that. tIM didn't even object to that. I think it's safe to say we can consider this idea of yours totally killed now. tIM is not attempting to keep the Council unaware of the Reaper threat, far from it. He would like, of course, to ensure humanity is at the forefront of fighting that threat.[/quote]
Nice straw man. You completely ignore the fact that TIM is withholding information. Just what do you think jamming transmissions is? Full disclosure? What TIM says he wants to do, and even what he believes he is doing do not neccessarily equate to him actually doing those things.
[quote]This is a tricky question. How many operations does he have, first of all, to determine the rate at which they go rogue? Second, is it really unethical to take mindless plant life, husks, and rachni and attempt to make shock troops out of them? I think the answer to these questions is 'yes', but I don't think with a threat as bad as the Reapers that it's a slam-dunk that is so simple the question doesn't need to be asked.[/quote]
First of all, he defends those operations by telling Shepard that they were rogue operations, not but attempting to defend them on any merits. Second, how many of those experiments were only started after he became aware of the Reaper threat?
As for the 'but we don't know about the successful operations' arguement, he doesn't point out any to Shepard to keep Shep on board. There is no reason to believe he has anything resembling a good track record at anything other than fund raising.
[quote]And you're going out of your way to acknowledge what is pretty obvious: if tIM were as gung-ho as you are insistent to suggest he is to keep you away from your old team, he simply wouldn't send you right into Liara's home. He just wouldn't. Your point hinges on the notion that in all the galaxy, there cannot be found a really really skilled biotic and assassin who can be bought, blackmailed, or persuaded to sign on. Among untold trillions and trillions and trillions of beings, with all of Cerberus's resources spent over years of research brought to bear. C'mon. That's just an untenable suggestion, and you know it.
But then again, you are the fellow who says, "tIM is trying to hide the Reapers and Collectors from the Council even though he didn't do anything to stop Shepard when she said, 'I'm going to get Council support if I can and tell them about these things.'"
[/quote]
I have been making the case that he is insane, not that he is stupid. Keeping you away from prior teammates is not his primary goal, merely a secondary. It therefore does not follow that he would jeapardize the rest of the mission just for that. Again, he chose those operatives presumably on a set of criteria. You tell me why those instead of simply handing Shepard the criteria? Of all those others you mention, how many would be both psycologically suited for the mission and willing to go on the mission regardless of pay? Highly competant people are simply not that common, and of that, those willing to follow someone else's lead on what is billed as a suicide mission? And are free to simply go the minute they are asked?
Think about it.
Keep in mind though that I have also been making the case that the writing is simply bad.
Modifié par Moiaussi, 01 octobre 2010 - 08:21 .
#181
Posté 01 octobre 2010 - 12:50
Turin_4
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iakus,
[quote]
According to EDI, Cerberus never has more than a dozen projects
going on at once, because TIM likes to maintain personal oversight. Any
more and he starts having problems multitasking.[/quote]
Two potential problems here. One, how compartmentalized is EDI's information and therefore how accurate is it? Two, how historically accurate is it? How far back does it go? I got the impression that she was speaking of the present; we know he has had several operations go rogue (or has claimed to have operations go rogue) in the past, leading to his current worried about his ability to multitask attitude in the present.
But it's quite possible EDI was supplied with that answer only to salve Shepard's doubts.
------
Moiaussi,
[quote]
Its really funny how you figure that would have been the worst case
scenario. Worst case was "The cruiser shoots the Hammerhead on its way
in, since it isn't even remotely stealthy, then catches the Normandy off
guard, again, shooting it down, again.[/quote]
I wasn't considering DLC re: Horizon.
[quote]
The Normandy getting shot down again instead of disengaging in time
is not a given, but it is only inexplicable writing that the Hammerhead
was allowed to land. Instead, the Collectors conveniently allow it to
land, and then send minimal troops against the landing party, since if
they actually sent the ships marine complement, it would be anti
climatic later going up against the same numbers just in a slightly
different environment. They even conveniently leave a heavy weapon
lieing about for Shepard to pick up and use even though they faced no
resistance other than Shepard.[/quote]
I didn't say it was a given. You're still clearly not listening. I said, repeatedly now, that Shepard and the Normandy had no reason to believe that they would have had a chance at successfully engaging the Collector ship in a direct fight ship-to-ship at that point in the game, at that time. They just didn't. Your entire basis for suggesting they should have initially lay on the fact that perhaps Garrus would have upgraded the guns already, so it would be easy. And then for some reason their shields would have been down, so it would have been easy. And then the Normandy could have run away if things were looking bad, so it would have been easy. On and on and on and at every branch of your hypotheticals completely ignoring the objectives they were at Horizon to accomplish in the first place: stop the Collectors and learn more about their abductions.
Inexplicable writing? It's pretty obvious if you use just a little imagination. The Collectors didn't know Shepard had landed until she started attacking their infantry. As for the Hammerhead, do they use that in Horizon, or am I much mistaken? Conveniently left behind a heavy weapon? That's 'inexplicable writing'? They were ambushed, moiaussi. When you're ambushed, sometimes you forget things.
[quote]How is what actually happened more believable than the tactics I suggested?[/quote]
Because the tactics you suggest all rely completely on throwing out the most likely expectactions beforehand and going with what we know the outcomes were having played the game and won it.
[quote]
Pardon, but it took two shots to take down the Normandy at point
blank range. That cruiser hardly seemed overpowered. In fact, the first
beam hit the Normandy square amidships. It was a direct hit. It did take
out much of the astrogation section, but most of the ship was still
relatively intact.[/quote]
...that hit went straight through the shields and armor, man. Going into the fight on Horizon, Shepard would have expected that every shot that lands on the Normandy would do instant, massive, critical damage to her ship is what it comes down to. And that is why your 'strategy' of 'why didn't she attack?! It's bad writing!' is pretty darn strange.
[quote]
The enemy did come up directly behind them and took long enough to
close that they could have disengaged if Joker hadn't been so intent on
playing fighter pilot. When they were ambushed the second time by the
powering up Collector vessel, they were away within 2 seconds of the
crew being back aboard. In the initial ambush they had significantly
more time than that. If the Normandy had simply gone immediately to FTL
or near FTL as soon as the enemy came up behind them, they would have
been fine. This is somewhat beleiveable due to reaction times... however that goes the other way if the Normandy gets the first shot in.[/quote]
Goodness, you can do everything better than everyone in ME2, can't ya!
If I remember right, it takes some few moments to engage the mass effect drives and rabbit on out of there, and you also have to be in a straight course for that duration. Meaning that Joker had to 'play fighter pilot'. Or are you now going to suggest that in addition to Shepard knowing nothing about naval combat, Joker knows nothing about naval combat?
Moiaussi, you are beginning to resemble the perfect Internet Critic.
[quote]
As for shooting first, you seem to be completely ignoring the fact
that the Normandy isn't invisible to the Collector vessel. If the
Normandy doesn't shoot first, then they are giving the Collectors the
chance to do so or to chase them off. Instead, the collectors
conveniently ignored them (both Normandy and Shuttle). There was no
way to know they would react that way. If the Normandy had come in fast
and hit first, the worst case is that they could have kept going
to FTL, would not have been taking the risk of letting the collectors
get the first shot at the Normandy or shuttle (again), and would have
learned conclusively about the Collector's ship defenses. [/quote]
Just because the Collectors have a method of defeating the Normandy's stealth systems doesn't mean they always know where the Normandy is everywhere. You were the one who suggested, "Why not just hide a fleet behind a planet?" Remember? Perhaps the Normandy used your own brilliant strategy to conceal itself against a time it would be needed by the ground team. As for learning about the Collector ship's defenses, ask yourself, which is more valuable: potentially learning about the Collector ship's defenses, or potentially learning about Collector infantry, tactics, methods, what they're doign with colonists, how they're doing it, numbers, weapons, how long it takes them to abduct, etc. etc. etc.
It's an obvious question. I know it's not an either-or situation, but from the outside looking in before it happens it might look like an either-or proposition, that if you engage the Collector ship with the Normandy, you put the other mission, the ground mission, at risk.
[quote]
That was another plot hole, btw... Their hull was breached, twice
by occulus that inexplicably toned down their firepower once inside the
hull. Instead of firing with hull breaching power, they suddenly fired
shots that didn't harm the interior at all.[/quote]
In order to breach the hull, the enemy ships had to ditch large portions of their exterior, becoming substantially smaller and less powerful.
[quote]
Look, we know he didn't serve as an officer on any ships because we are told so
as part of his background in ME1. Anderson started as a Marine too, but
at least was transferred to the navy and served as an XO on a frigate
for a while before being given command of the Normandy. We know all this. You are the one making things up. Read the Wiki. Spacer shepards can have grown up on ships, but still not as crew.[/quote]
So...'didn't serve as an officer' means 'has no naval combat experience or knowledge whatsoever', then. OK, gotcha. And I'm the one making things up, says Mr. 'their shields are down' and 'tIM doesn't want the Council to know' and 'tIM is clearly insane' etc. etc.
[quote]
If you cannot explain how it being different is relevant (which you
still are not doing) then it is semantics, quibbling over specific words
or phrases as a red herring to distract from the actual arguement. I am
giiving you the benefit of the doubt that you don't realize you are
doing so.[/quote]
*shrug* I said you made that part up, and you quoted a video which showed, hey presto, that I was right. It wasn't just semantics, tIM said something that was sort of in the ballpark of what you said, kind of, but not actually very close. But nice try. I realize you're trying to hide behind this semantics accusation, though.
[quote]
You are losing the benefit of the doubt. You do realize the
concept of multiple scenarios, don't you? And presumably can understand
'if this then this, but if that then that?'[/quote]
Here's what I realize: you've stopped talking about the scenario you were committed to at first, and haven't mentioned it since. Do you believe in it at all anymore, or have you dropped it? Were there ever any Turians, or weren't there?
Incidentally, I don't think you actually thought there were multiple scenarios, because I remember you said, "How could he have jammed the transmission without a ship nearby?" I think you're just covering your ass now.
[quote]
If TIM doesn't jam the transmission it is one scenario. If he does jam the transmission it is a different scenario. Presumably you can understand that jamming is jamming and different from not jamming?[/quote]
Why don't you tell us about how he couldn't have intercepted that transmission without a ship nearby?
[quote]
Nice straw man. You completely ignore the fact that TIM is
withholding information. Just what do you think jamming transmissions
is? Full disclosure? What TIM says he wants to do, and even what he
believes he is doing do not neccessarily equate to him actually doing
those things.[/quote]
Wait a minute. How in the hell is it a straw man, moiaussi?
You say that tIM is working hard to keep the Council from knowledge of the Reaper and Collector threat, that this is one sign that he is insane. That he is also working hard to keep Shepard from working with her old contacts. So when presented with the challenge to this point of him only having about two sentences worth of skepticism to Shepard of actually disagreeing with going to the Council with the Council and Reaper threat, and nothing about actually stopping her or even slowing her down, you say, "Nice straw man?"
tIM didn't stop that information from getting to the Turians, was the impression I got, he delayed it. It was never made clear, remember? But you go ahead and believe what you want. You will anyway, as is demonstrated very, very clearly by this last exchange here. I am done discussing this with you unless you can come up with a better response than 'nice straw man', because that is a completely chicken**** answer, and I can tell you know it by the weakness of your response.
[quote]
According to EDI, Cerberus never has more than a dozen projects
going on at once, because TIM likes to maintain personal oversight. Any
more and he starts having problems multitasking.[/quote]
Two potential problems here. One, how compartmentalized is EDI's information and therefore how accurate is it? Two, how historically accurate is it? How far back does it go? I got the impression that she was speaking of the present; we know he has had several operations go rogue (or has claimed to have operations go rogue) in the past, leading to his current worried about his ability to multitask attitude in the present.
But it's quite possible EDI was supplied with that answer only to salve Shepard's doubts.
------
Moiaussi,
[quote]
Its really funny how you figure that would have been the worst case
scenario. Worst case was "The cruiser shoots the Hammerhead on its way
in, since it isn't even remotely stealthy, then catches the Normandy off
guard, again, shooting it down, again.[/quote]
I wasn't considering DLC re: Horizon.
[quote]
The Normandy getting shot down again instead of disengaging in time
is not a given, but it is only inexplicable writing that the Hammerhead
was allowed to land. Instead, the Collectors conveniently allow it to
land, and then send minimal troops against the landing party, since if
they actually sent the ships marine complement, it would be anti
climatic later going up against the same numbers just in a slightly
different environment. They even conveniently leave a heavy weapon
lieing about for Shepard to pick up and use even though they faced no
resistance other than Shepard.[/quote]
I didn't say it was a given. You're still clearly not listening. I said, repeatedly now, that Shepard and the Normandy had no reason to believe that they would have had a chance at successfully engaging the Collector ship in a direct fight ship-to-ship at that point in the game, at that time. They just didn't. Your entire basis for suggesting they should have initially lay on the fact that perhaps Garrus would have upgraded the guns already, so it would be easy. And then for some reason their shields would have been down, so it would have been easy. And then the Normandy could have run away if things were looking bad, so it would have been easy. On and on and on and at every branch of your hypotheticals completely ignoring the objectives they were at Horizon to accomplish in the first place: stop the Collectors and learn more about their abductions.
Inexplicable writing? It's pretty obvious if you use just a little imagination. The Collectors didn't know Shepard had landed until she started attacking their infantry. As for the Hammerhead, do they use that in Horizon, or am I much mistaken? Conveniently left behind a heavy weapon? That's 'inexplicable writing'? They were ambushed, moiaussi. When you're ambushed, sometimes you forget things.
[quote]How is what actually happened more believable than the tactics I suggested?[/quote]
Because the tactics you suggest all rely completely on throwing out the most likely expectactions beforehand and going with what we know the outcomes were having played the game and won it.
[quote]
Pardon, but it took two shots to take down the Normandy at point
blank range. That cruiser hardly seemed overpowered. In fact, the first
beam hit the Normandy square amidships. It was a direct hit. It did take
out much of the astrogation section, but most of the ship was still
relatively intact.[/quote]
...that hit went straight through the shields and armor, man. Going into the fight on Horizon, Shepard would have expected that every shot that lands on the Normandy would do instant, massive, critical damage to her ship is what it comes down to. And that is why your 'strategy' of 'why didn't she attack?! It's bad writing!' is pretty darn strange.
[quote]
The enemy did come up directly behind them and took long enough to
close that they could have disengaged if Joker hadn't been so intent on
playing fighter pilot. When they were ambushed the second time by the
powering up Collector vessel, they were away within 2 seconds of the
crew being back aboard. In the initial ambush they had significantly
more time than that. If the Normandy had simply gone immediately to FTL
or near FTL as soon as the enemy came up behind them, they would have
been fine. This is somewhat beleiveable due to reaction times... however that goes the other way if the Normandy gets the first shot in.[/quote]
Goodness, you can do everything better than everyone in ME2, can't ya!
If I remember right, it takes some few moments to engage the mass effect drives and rabbit on out of there, and you also have to be in a straight course for that duration. Meaning that Joker had to 'play fighter pilot'. Or are you now going to suggest that in addition to Shepard knowing nothing about naval combat, Joker knows nothing about naval combat?
Moiaussi, you are beginning to resemble the perfect Internet Critic.
[quote]
As for shooting first, you seem to be completely ignoring the fact
that the Normandy isn't invisible to the Collector vessel. If the
Normandy doesn't shoot first, then they are giving the Collectors the
chance to do so or to chase them off. Instead, the collectors
conveniently ignored them (both Normandy and Shuttle). There was no
way to know they would react that way. If the Normandy had come in fast
and hit first, the worst case is that they could have kept going
to FTL, would not have been taking the risk of letting the collectors
get the first shot at the Normandy or shuttle (again), and would have
learned conclusively about the Collector's ship defenses. [/quote]
Just because the Collectors have a method of defeating the Normandy's stealth systems doesn't mean they always know where the Normandy is everywhere. You were the one who suggested, "Why not just hide a fleet behind a planet?" Remember? Perhaps the Normandy used your own brilliant strategy to conceal itself against a time it would be needed by the ground team. As for learning about the Collector ship's defenses, ask yourself, which is more valuable: potentially learning about the Collector ship's defenses, or potentially learning about Collector infantry, tactics, methods, what they're doign with colonists, how they're doing it, numbers, weapons, how long it takes them to abduct, etc. etc. etc.
It's an obvious question. I know it's not an either-or situation, but from the outside looking in before it happens it might look like an either-or proposition, that if you engage the Collector ship with the Normandy, you put the other mission, the ground mission, at risk.
[quote]
That was another plot hole, btw... Their hull was breached, twice
by occulus that inexplicably toned down their firepower once inside the
hull. Instead of firing with hull breaching power, they suddenly fired
shots that didn't harm the interior at all.[/quote]
In order to breach the hull, the enemy ships had to ditch large portions of their exterior, becoming substantially smaller and less powerful.
[quote]
Look, we know he didn't serve as an officer on any ships because we are told so
as part of his background in ME1. Anderson started as a Marine too, but
at least was transferred to the navy and served as an XO on a frigate
for a while before being given command of the Normandy. We know all this. You are the one making things up. Read the Wiki. Spacer shepards can have grown up on ships, but still not as crew.[/quote]
So...'didn't serve as an officer' means 'has no naval combat experience or knowledge whatsoever', then. OK, gotcha. And I'm the one making things up, says Mr. 'their shields are down' and 'tIM doesn't want the Council to know' and 'tIM is clearly insane' etc. etc.
[quote]
If you cannot explain how it being different is relevant (which you
still are not doing) then it is semantics, quibbling over specific words
or phrases as a red herring to distract from the actual arguement. I am
giiving you the benefit of the doubt that you don't realize you are
doing so.[/quote]
*shrug* I said you made that part up, and you quoted a video which showed, hey presto, that I was right. It wasn't just semantics, tIM said something that was sort of in the ballpark of what you said, kind of, but not actually very close. But nice try. I realize you're trying to hide behind this semantics accusation, though.
[quote]
You are losing the benefit of the doubt. You do realize the
concept of multiple scenarios, don't you? And presumably can understand
'if this then this, but if that then that?'[/quote]
Here's what I realize: you've stopped talking about the scenario you were committed to at first, and haven't mentioned it since. Do you believe in it at all anymore, or have you dropped it? Were there ever any Turians, or weren't there?
Incidentally, I don't think you actually thought there were multiple scenarios, because I remember you said, "How could he have jammed the transmission without a ship nearby?" I think you're just covering your ass now.
[quote]
If TIM doesn't jam the transmission it is one scenario. If he does jam the transmission it is a different scenario. Presumably you can understand that jamming is jamming and different from not jamming?[/quote]
Why don't you tell us about how he couldn't have intercepted that transmission without a ship nearby?
[quote]
Nice straw man. You completely ignore the fact that TIM is
withholding information. Just what do you think jamming transmissions
is? Full disclosure? What TIM says he wants to do, and even what he
believes he is doing do not neccessarily equate to him actually doing
those things.[/quote]
Wait a minute. How in the hell is it a straw man, moiaussi?
You say that tIM is working hard to keep the Council from knowledge of the Reaper and Collector threat, that this is one sign that he is insane. That he is also working hard to keep Shepard from working with her old contacts. So when presented with the challenge to this point of him only having about two sentences worth of skepticism to Shepard of actually disagreeing with going to the Council with the Council and Reaper threat, and nothing about actually stopping her or even slowing her down, you say, "Nice straw man?"
tIM didn't stop that information from getting to the Turians, was the impression I got, he delayed it. It was never made clear, remember? But you go ahead and believe what you want. You will anyway, as is demonstrated very, very clearly by this last exchange here. I am done discussing this with you unless you can come up with a better response than 'nice straw man', because that is a completely chicken**** answer, and I can tell you know it by the weakness of your response.
#182
Posté 01 octobre 2010 - 01:44
Iakus
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Turin_4 wrote...
iakus,According to EDI, Cerberus never has more than a dozen projects
going on at once, because TIM likes to maintain personal oversight. Any
more and he starts having problems multitasking.
Two potential problems here. One, how compartmentalized is EDI's information and therefore how accurate is it? Two, how historically accurate is it? How far back does it go? I got the impression that she was speaking of the present; we know he has had several operations go rogue (or has claimed to have operations go rogue) in the past, leading to his current worried about his ability to multitask attitude in the present.
But it's quite possible EDI was supplied with that answer only to salve Shepard's doubts.
1) Possible, but given that EDI seems to know everything about everything, it's unlikely this information is eroneous.
2) Pragia was destroyed perhaps a decade ago after being in place for who knows how long. Akuze took place eight years previous to ME 2, with similar methods used right up until the events in ME 1. Kahoku, rachni, etc, took place two years previous to ME 2 (during ME 1). Overlord was still ongoing as of ME 2. If TIM at some point chose to exert "personal oversight" on the projects, it's unlikely it changed anything.
Was EDI trying to ease Shepad's doubts? Unlikely, given she only supplies this information after she is unshackled.
Modifié par iakus, 01 octobre 2010 - 01:45 .
#183
Posté 01 octobre 2010 - 01:51
Turin_4
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1) Possible, but given that EDI seems to know everything about everything, it's unlikely this information is eroneous.
Well, it's unlikely EDI made an error, certainly, but again, it's definitely possible tIM kept information compartmentalized successfully from EDI, isn't it? That's all I meant.
As for easing Shepard's doubts, I don't remember, did she mention that bit about 'strains his ability to multi-task' before or after being unshackled?
#184
Posté 01 octobre 2010 - 02:18
smudboy
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Nightwriter wrote...
Once again, I agree with iakus.Heldelance wrote...
Quick question...
What would be the reaction if they were to add jumping and crouching onto ME3 or subsequent games?
Oh, I'd like that. I don't feel like we enjoy much freedom of physical movement in ME. Shepard is very stiff and unwieldy in this way.
I really would like Shepard to be able to perform more physical animations in general.
Crouching
Sitting in chairs
Grabbing enemies as shields
Jumping
Performing biotic melee
#185
Posté 01 octobre 2010 - 04:22
P3G4SU5
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Mind if I ask what the problems were exactly?Merlin 47 wrote...
Heldelance wrote...
Quick question...
What would be the reaction if they were to add jumping and crouching onto ME3 or subsequent games?
I had enough problems with crouching in ME 1.
No thanks.
#186
Posté 01 octobre 2010 - 04:32
theelementslayer
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Id rather they keep the whole gameplay thing the same. Crouching looked weird and always looks weird in 3rd person. As does jumping. I like the mantle the way it is.
#187
Posté 01 octobre 2010 - 04:51
Saibh
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theelementslayer wrote...
Id rather they keep the whole gameplay thing the same. Crouching looked weird and always looks weird in 3rd person. As does jumping. I like the mantle the way it is.
I always hate jumping. It's not like it's a broad multiplayer campaign where the terrain can be navigated. Vaulting works well enough for what Shepard needs to do in either game. It also usually looks completely ridiculous.
#188
Posté 01 octobre 2010 - 05:20
Moiaussi
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[quote]Turin_4 wrote...
Moiaussi,
I wasn't considering DLC re: Horizon.[/quote]
What DLC? Are you trying to say that Shepard should have know the Hammerhead couldn't be shot down because there is no game mechanic letting you fly it as a player? No clue what you mean here.....
[quote]I didn't say it was a given. You're still clearly not listening. I said, repeatedly now, that Shepard and the Normandy had no reason to believe that they would have had a chance at successfully engaging the Collector ship in a direct fight ship-to-ship at that point in the game, at that time. They just didn't. Your entire basis for suggesting they should have initially lay on the fact that perhaps Garrus would have upgraded the guns already, so it would be easy. And then for some reason their shields would have been down, so it would have been easy. And then the Normandy could have run away if things were looking bad, so it would have been easy. On and on and on and at every branch of your hypotheticals completely ignoring the objectives they were at Horizon to accomplish in the first place: stop the Collectors and learn more about their abductions.
Inexplicable writing? It's pretty obvious if you use just a little imagination. The Collectors didn't know Shepard had landed until she started attacking their infantry. As for the Hammerhead, do they use that in Horizon, or am I much mistaken? Conveniently left behind a heavy weapon? That's 'inexplicable writing'? They were ambushed, moiaussi. When you're ambushed, sometimes you forget things.[/quote]
So you figure it is believable that every merc in the Terminus systems can see a shuttle coming in towards their base, but the Collectors, whom we are told are much higher tech, and can see through the Normandy's stealth systems are completely blind to it?
More imporantly, that Shepard simply assuming it would land safely is ok, but Shepard talking a much less risky approach of simply shooting the Cruiser first is somehow innane simply because he couldn't be completely sure such a tactic would be safe? Hmmm, a hit and run strike on a grounded vessel by a ship specificly designed for such tactics vs flying straight into their guns in a much less defended shuttlecraft on the blind faith that they won't shoot you down.... and you figure the first would only be considered because of metagaming, but the latter is completely justifiable? Really?
[quote]Because the tactics you suggest all rely completely on throwing out the most likely expectactions beforehand and going with what we know the outcomes were having played the game and won it.[/quote]
For that to be a valid arguement you have to be able to show that there was a likelihood of failure. Equally important, you have to explain how Shepard would know that sending an unarmed shuttle in instead would be safer. Seriously. By the way, the last race that the Reapers used had ships that were nothing magical. Some of them were no match for small arms or ground vehicle guns (note that none of the Geth dropships in ME2 stick around long enough to be shot down, the writers seem to have covered for that at least). Why the assumption that the Collector's cruiser was somehow automatically superior, especially against the upgraded guns?
[quote]...that hit went straight through the shields and armor, man. Going into the fight on Horizon, Shepard would have expected that every shot that lands on the Normandy would do instant, massive, critical damage to her ship is what it comes down to. And that is why your 'strategy' of 'why didn't she attack?! It's bad writing!' is pretty darn strange.[/quote]
Straight through the armour and sheilds of a frigate..... at point blank range... from a cruiser's main gun. Why should that be surprising? Frigates are not designed to take major hits. They are designed to knife fight, to use speed and size. They also are designed to fight in close, and do pack a punch.
[quote]Goodness, you can do everything better than everyone in ME2, can't ya!
If I remember right, it takes some few moments to engage the mass effect drives and rabbit on out of there, and you also have to be in a straight course for that duration. Meaning that Joker had to 'play fighter pilot'. Or are you now going to suggest that in addition to Shepard knowing nothing about naval combat, Joker knows nothing about naval combat?[/quote]
You remember wrong. Go back and re-watch the scene of the Normandy fleeing the Collector's 'trap' (after fighting their way off their ship). They are gone almost instantly on getting back on board. Joker does know some things about naval combat, but has no command experience. His only combat experience was the battle at the Citadel (in which disengaging was not an easy option due to the nebula). Nevertheless he does seem adept at both hit and run tactics (the dropping the Mako on Ilos and the cut scenes of the battle at the Citadel both show examples). He is also adept at rapid disengagements in crisis. Hence my questioning the writing when he suddenly seems less completent.
And yes the Normandy seems to fly in a straight line to FTL but that makes no sense for that to be a neccessity. FTL in ME is simply a matter of going faster. There should be no reason it couldn't maintain an evasive pattern while accelerating to FTL.
[quote]Just because the Collectors have a method of defeating the Normandy's stealth systems doesn't mean they always know where the Normandy is everywhere. You were the one who suggested, "Why not just hide a fleet behind a planet?" Remember? Perhaps the Normandy used your own brilliant strategy to conceal itself against a time it would be needed by the ground team. As for learning about the Collector ship's defenses, ask yourself, which is more valuable: potentially learning about the Collector ship's defenses, or potentially learning about Collector infantry, tactics, methods, what they're doign with colonists, how they're doing it, numbers, weapons, how long it takes them to abduct, etc. etc. etc.
It's an obvious question. I know it's not an either-or situation, but from the outside looking in before it happens it might look like an either-or proposition, that if you engage the Collector ship with the Normandy, you put the other mission, the ground mission, at risk.[/quote]
Make up your mind. Either they see the Normandy coming in or not. If they do, then they should be able to see the Hammerhead the same way every merc in creation can. If they can't then the hit and run strike is that much safer. And ship tactics are always tremendously more valuable than ground tactics. With the ship taken out there would be fewer troops, they would be trapped on world, and could be taken out later without the risk of the ship itself becoming involved.
[quote]In order to breach the hull, the enemy ships had to ditch large portions of their exterior, becoming substantially smaller and less powerful.[/quote]
They are said to jettison armor not weapons, and why in blazes would they? What is the point of shooting up an interior when they are still too big for interior corridors and can't even shoot their way out of the cargo hold to anywhere vital? Also, if the armor isn't upgraded,Jack (who is in engineering) is the one killed, but somehow they kill her but miss the actual engines. Yup, definately good writing there....
I doubt I am the perfect internet critic, then you are making a good run for the title of perfect internet apologist.
[quote]So...'didn't serve as an officer' means 'has no naval combat experience or knowledge whatsoever', then. OK, gotcha. And I'm the one making things up, says Mr. 'their shields are down' and 'tIM doesn't want the Council to know' and 'tIM is clearly insane' etc. etc.[/quote]
In this case he really does have no naval combat experience. He was on the ground as a marine either on Akuze, Elysium, or Torfan depending on which background options you choose in ME1. He is still a marine at the start of ME1. As for your attempt to discredit me, I did acknowledge being wrong about the shields, but the other two are opinions which I stand by. Simply declaring me wrong does not make me wrong.
[quote]*shrug* I said you made that part up, and you quoted a video which showed, hey presto, that I was right. It wasn't just semantics, tIM said something that was sort of in the ballpark of what you said, kind of, but not actually very close. But nice try. I realize you're trying to hide behind this semantics accusation, though.[/quote]
You were right about something completely irrelevant to the arguement, which I hadn't taken the time to look up previously because it was irrelevant.
Continuing to pursue this without explaining any relevence other that what amounts to 'ha ha you were wrong' is just trolling.
[quote]
Here's what I realize: you've stopped talking about the scenario you were committed to at first, and haven't mentioned it since. Do you believe in it at all anymore, or have you dropped it? Were there ever any Turians, or weren't there?
Incidentally, I don't think you actually thought there were multiple scenarios, because I remember you said, "How could he have jammed the transmission without a ship nearby?" I think you're just covering your ass now.[/quote]
Ok, just dense or trolling then? What Turians are you asking about? I had said that if he jams the fake signal, which he knows to be fake, then the Turian government wouldn't know to investigate. It is unlikely they even have any warships anywhere near there, since it is the Terminus systems. If they did, they would simply contact them and find that out. So the only reason to jam the transmission is to keep the Turians from finding the Collector's ship, regardless of the risk to Shepard or the rest of the galaxy.
As for jamming the transmission, I was wondering how he could jam transmissions so easily. Your answer was that he can appearantly coopt any communications bouy he wishes to. What would that have to do with Turians actually being on the scene or not? If he didn't jam the transmissions and the Turians showed up there would have been no jamming to detect (since he didn't do any) and there would have been no risk of the Turians suddenly realizing someone can jam transmissions meant for them.
[quote]Why don't you tell us about how he couldn't have intercepted that transmission without a ship nearby?[/quote]
I don't remember saying anything about him having a ship nearby. My initial question was how he could jam the transmissions at all. You answered 'by hacking the com bouys' and have been doing your best to turn that into another red herring, inadvertatly pointing out more bad writing rather than less. If that is a secure Turian transmission, precisely whose com bouys is it travelling through? If it is not a secure transmission, merely a heavily encrypted one, why is it tight beam and jamable at all? Why wouldn't any ship in that area pick it up?
[quote]Wait a minute. How in the hell is it a straw man, moiaussi?
You say that tIM is working hard to keep the Council from knowledge of the Reaper and Collector threat, that this is one sign that he is insane. That he is also working hard to keep Shepard from working with her old contacts. So when presented with the challenge to this point of him only having about two sentences worth of skepticism to Shepard of actually disagreeing with going to the Council with the Council and Reaper threat, and nothing about actually stopping her or even slowing her down, you say, "Nice straw man?"
tIM didn't stop that information from getting to the Turians, was the impression I got, he delayed it. It was never made clear, remember? But you go ahead and believe what you want. You will anyway, as is demonstrated very, very clearly by this last exchange here. I am done discussing this with you unless you can come up with a better response than 'nice straw man', because that is a completely chicken**** answer, and I can tell you know it by the weakness of your response.[/quote]
What he told Shepard was that he was jamming it and feeding them false reports, but they would eventually figure that out. We learn later though that TIM was lieing through his teeth and there was no Turian patrol there, which means that he could have jammed the transmission indefinately without the Turians ever knowing and since the transmissions presumably ended when the ship powered back up, they will never know.
Regardless, delaying information getting through until you can send your own team to remove anything valuable (including any useful evidence) is withholding crucial information, which is exactly what I accused TIM of doing.
Moiaussi,
I wasn't considering DLC re: Horizon.[/quote]
What DLC? Are you trying to say that Shepard should have know the Hammerhead couldn't be shot down because there is no game mechanic letting you fly it as a player? No clue what you mean here.....
[quote]I didn't say it was a given. You're still clearly not listening. I said, repeatedly now, that Shepard and the Normandy had no reason to believe that they would have had a chance at successfully engaging the Collector ship in a direct fight ship-to-ship at that point in the game, at that time. They just didn't. Your entire basis for suggesting they should have initially lay on the fact that perhaps Garrus would have upgraded the guns already, so it would be easy. And then for some reason their shields would have been down, so it would have been easy. And then the Normandy could have run away if things were looking bad, so it would have been easy. On and on and on and at every branch of your hypotheticals completely ignoring the objectives they were at Horizon to accomplish in the first place: stop the Collectors and learn more about their abductions.
Inexplicable writing? It's pretty obvious if you use just a little imagination. The Collectors didn't know Shepard had landed until she started attacking their infantry. As for the Hammerhead, do they use that in Horizon, or am I much mistaken? Conveniently left behind a heavy weapon? That's 'inexplicable writing'? They were ambushed, moiaussi. When you're ambushed, sometimes you forget things.[/quote]
So you figure it is believable that every merc in the Terminus systems can see a shuttle coming in towards their base, but the Collectors, whom we are told are much higher tech, and can see through the Normandy's stealth systems are completely blind to it?
More imporantly, that Shepard simply assuming it would land safely is ok, but Shepard talking a much less risky approach of simply shooting the Cruiser first is somehow innane simply because he couldn't be completely sure such a tactic would be safe? Hmmm, a hit and run strike on a grounded vessel by a ship specificly designed for such tactics vs flying straight into their guns in a much less defended shuttlecraft on the blind faith that they won't shoot you down.... and you figure the first would only be considered because of metagaming, but the latter is completely justifiable? Really?
[quote]Because the tactics you suggest all rely completely on throwing out the most likely expectactions beforehand and going with what we know the outcomes were having played the game and won it.[/quote]
For that to be a valid arguement you have to be able to show that there was a likelihood of failure. Equally important, you have to explain how Shepard would know that sending an unarmed shuttle in instead would be safer. Seriously. By the way, the last race that the Reapers used had ships that were nothing magical. Some of them were no match for small arms or ground vehicle guns (note that none of the Geth dropships in ME2 stick around long enough to be shot down, the writers seem to have covered for that at least). Why the assumption that the Collector's cruiser was somehow automatically superior, especially against the upgraded guns?
[quote]...that hit went straight through the shields and armor, man. Going into the fight on Horizon, Shepard would have expected that every shot that lands on the Normandy would do instant, massive, critical damage to her ship is what it comes down to. And that is why your 'strategy' of 'why didn't she attack?! It's bad writing!' is pretty darn strange.[/quote]
Straight through the armour and sheilds of a frigate..... at point blank range... from a cruiser's main gun. Why should that be surprising? Frigates are not designed to take major hits. They are designed to knife fight, to use speed and size. They also are designed to fight in close, and do pack a punch.
[quote]Goodness, you can do everything better than everyone in ME2, can't ya!
If I remember right, it takes some few moments to engage the mass effect drives and rabbit on out of there, and you also have to be in a straight course for that duration. Meaning that Joker had to 'play fighter pilot'. Or are you now going to suggest that in addition to Shepard knowing nothing about naval combat, Joker knows nothing about naval combat?[/quote]
You remember wrong. Go back and re-watch the scene of the Normandy fleeing the Collector's 'trap' (after fighting their way off their ship). They are gone almost instantly on getting back on board. Joker does know some things about naval combat, but has no command experience. His only combat experience was the battle at the Citadel (in which disengaging was not an easy option due to the nebula). Nevertheless he does seem adept at both hit and run tactics (the dropping the Mako on Ilos and the cut scenes of the battle at the Citadel both show examples). He is also adept at rapid disengagements in crisis. Hence my questioning the writing when he suddenly seems less completent.
And yes the Normandy seems to fly in a straight line to FTL but that makes no sense for that to be a neccessity. FTL in ME is simply a matter of going faster. There should be no reason it couldn't maintain an evasive pattern while accelerating to FTL.
[quote]Just because the Collectors have a method of defeating the Normandy's stealth systems doesn't mean they always know where the Normandy is everywhere. You were the one who suggested, "Why not just hide a fleet behind a planet?" Remember? Perhaps the Normandy used your own brilliant strategy to conceal itself against a time it would be needed by the ground team. As for learning about the Collector ship's defenses, ask yourself, which is more valuable: potentially learning about the Collector ship's defenses, or potentially learning about Collector infantry, tactics, methods, what they're doign with colonists, how they're doing it, numbers, weapons, how long it takes them to abduct, etc. etc. etc.
It's an obvious question. I know it's not an either-or situation, but from the outside looking in before it happens it might look like an either-or proposition, that if you engage the Collector ship with the Normandy, you put the other mission, the ground mission, at risk.[/quote]
Make up your mind. Either they see the Normandy coming in or not. If they do, then they should be able to see the Hammerhead the same way every merc in creation can. If they can't then the hit and run strike is that much safer. And ship tactics are always tremendously more valuable than ground tactics. With the ship taken out there would be fewer troops, they would be trapped on world, and could be taken out later without the risk of the ship itself becoming involved.
[quote]In order to breach the hull, the enemy ships had to ditch large portions of their exterior, becoming substantially smaller and less powerful.[/quote]
They are said to jettison armor not weapons, and why in blazes would they? What is the point of shooting up an interior when they are still too big for interior corridors and can't even shoot their way out of the cargo hold to anywhere vital? Also, if the armor isn't upgraded,Jack (who is in engineering) is the one killed, but somehow they kill her but miss the actual engines. Yup, definately good writing there....
I doubt I am the perfect internet critic, then you are making a good run for the title of perfect internet apologist.
[quote]So...'didn't serve as an officer' means 'has no naval combat experience or knowledge whatsoever', then. OK, gotcha. And I'm the one making things up, says Mr. 'their shields are down' and 'tIM doesn't want the Council to know' and 'tIM is clearly insane' etc. etc.[/quote]
In this case he really does have no naval combat experience. He was on the ground as a marine either on Akuze, Elysium, or Torfan depending on which background options you choose in ME1. He is still a marine at the start of ME1. As for your attempt to discredit me, I did acknowledge being wrong about the shields, but the other two are opinions which I stand by. Simply declaring me wrong does not make me wrong.
[quote]*shrug* I said you made that part up, and you quoted a video which showed, hey presto, that I was right. It wasn't just semantics, tIM said something that was sort of in the ballpark of what you said, kind of, but not actually very close. But nice try. I realize you're trying to hide behind this semantics accusation, though.[/quote]
You were right about something completely irrelevant to the arguement, which I hadn't taken the time to look up previously because it was irrelevant.
Continuing to pursue this without explaining any relevence other that what amounts to 'ha ha you were wrong' is just trolling.
[quote]
Here's what I realize: you've stopped talking about the scenario you were committed to at first, and haven't mentioned it since. Do you believe in it at all anymore, or have you dropped it? Were there ever any Turians, or weren't there?
Incidentally, I don't think you actually thought there were multiple scenarios, because I remember you said, "How could he have jammed the transmission without a ship nearby?" I think you're just covering your ass now.[/quote]
Ok, just dense or trolling then? What Turians are you asking about? I had said that if he jams the fake signal, which he knows to be fake, then the Turian government wouldn't know to investigate. It is unlikely they even have any warships anywhere near there, since it is the Terminus systems. If they did, they would simply contact them and find that out. So the only reason to jam the transmission is to keep the Turians from finding the Collector's ship, regardless of the risk to Shepard or the rest of the galaxy.
As for jamming the transmission, I was wondering how he could jam transmissions so easily. Your answer was that he can appearantly coopt any communications bouy he wishes to. What would that have to do with Turians actually being on the scene or not? If he didn't jam the transmissions and the Turians showed up there would have been no jamming to detect (since he didn't do any) and there would have been no risk of the Turians suddenly realizing someone can jam transmissions meant for them.
[quote]Why don't you tell us about how he couldn't have intercepted that transmission without a ship nearby?[/quote]
I don't remember saying anything about him having a ship nearby. My initial question was how he could jam the transmissions at all. You answered 'by hacking the com bouys' and have been doing your best to turn that into another red herring, inadvertatly pointing out more bad writing rather than less. If that is a secure Turian transmission, precisely whose com bouys is it travelling through? If it is not a secure transmission, merely a heavily encrypted one, why is it tight beam and jamable at all? Why wouldn't any ship in that area pick it up?
[quote]Wait a minute. How in the hell is it a straw man, moiaussi?
You say that tIM is working hard to keep the Council from knowledge of the Reaper and Collector threat, that this is one sign that he is insane. That he is also working hard to keep Shepard from working with her old contacts. So when presented with the challenge to this point of him only having about two sentences worth of skepticism to Shepard of actually disagreeing with going to the Council with the Council and Reaper threat, and nothing about actually stopping her or even slowing her down, you say, "Nice straw man?"
tIM didn't stop that information from getting to the Turians, was the impression I got, he delayed it. It was never made clear, remember? But you go ahead and believe what you want. You will anyway, as is demonstrated very, very clearly by this last exchange here. I am done discussing this with you unless you can come up with a better response than 'nice straw man', because that is a completely chicken**** answer, and I can tell you know it by the weakness of your response.[/quote]
What he told Shepard was that he was jamming it and feeding them false reports, but they would eventually figure that out. We learn later though that TIM was lieing through his teeth and there was no Turian patrol there, which means that he could have jammed the transmission indefinately without the Turians ever knowing and since the transmissions presumably ended when the ship powered back up, they will never know.
Regardless, delaying information getting through until you can send your own team to remove anything valuable (including any useful evidence) is withholding crucial information, which is exactly what I accused TIM of doing.
#189
Posté 01 octobre 2010 - 05:30
Turin_4
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So, you've still got nothing on your ridiculous theory that tIM is attempting to stop the Council from learning about the Reaper and Collector threat, in spite of not attempting to stop or even dissuade, really, Shepard from going straight to them, right out of Freedom's Progress (or must you go to Omega first? Can't quite remember), and telling them everything you know thus far.
I'm done talking about this with you, since even for what amounts to a pretty silly Internet discussion, you can't discuss things in a straightforward and honest way. It's very obvious your theory that tIM is insane and wants to be the 11th hour savior, facilitated by keeping everyone else in the dark about the Reapers and Collectors is bunk, but you're backpedaling and dodging about it. You're simply unwilling to admit it.
Now please, go about declaring victory and changing the subject.
I'm done talking about this with you, since even for what amounts to a pretty silly Internet discussion, you can't discuss things in a straightforward and honest way. It's very obvious your theory that tIM is insane and wants to be the 11th hour savior, facilitated by keeping everyone else in the dark about the Reapers and Collectors is bunk, but you're backpedaling and dodging about it. You're simply unwilling to admit it.
Now please, go about declaring victory and changing the subject.
#190
Posté 01 octobre 2010 - 05:37
Moiaussi
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Turin_4 wrote...
So, you've still got nothing on your ridiculous theory that tIM is attempting to stop the Council from learning about the Reaper and Collector threat, in spite of not attempting to stop or even dissuade, really, Shepard from going straight to them, right out of Freedom's Progress (or must you go to Omega first? Can't quite remember), and telling them everything you know thus far.
I'm done talking about this with you, since even for what amounts to a pretty silly Internet discussion, you can't discuss things in a straightforward and honest way. It's very obvious your theory that tIM is insane and wants to be the 11th hour savior, facilitated by keeping everyone else in the dark about the Reapers and Collectors is bunk, but you're backpedaling and dodging about it. You're simply unwilling to admit it.
Now please, go about declaring victory and changing the subject.
Illium is in the second phase of recruiting. I don't think the game even allows you to go there before that... will check later though. You really do need to go back and re-listen to the initial discussion with TIM, though where Shepard asks him about his former crew. The tone is entirely dismissive of the idea.
It does sound like we likely have to agree to disagree though. Declaring victory would only be relevant if I had convinced you, which I failed to do.
#191
Posté 01 octobre 2010 - 05:38
Lumikki
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After Freedom's progress you can go directly to Citadel and speak with Council, if you did right choises in ME1. In my gameplay, I did explain situation to Council and talked about it. Council did not like it, but they did understand it, because where TIM was operating was out of they influense. Not part of Councils protected areas. They made me again Specter and I did go to back to Normady, to do the job what Specters do. TIM doesn't give the orders, I as Specter are using TIM's resources to get the job done.Turin_4 wrote...
So, you've still got nothing on your ridiculous theory that tIM is attempting to stop the Council from learning about the Reaper and Collector threat, in spite of not attempting to stop or even dissuade, really, Shepard from going straight to them, right out of Freedom's Progress (or must you go to Omega first? Can't quite remember), and telling them everything you know thus far.
Just confirming above posts info about Illium, you can't go in Illium before first round of recuirements. I tryed it ones, because shoping reasons. I think game opens sertain areas only after you got some missions related to them.
Modifié par Lumikki, 01 octobre 2010 - 06:01 .
#192
Posté 01 octobre 2010 - 05:54
Turin_4
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Illium is in the second phase of recruiting. I don't think the game even allows you to go there before that... will check later though. You really do need to go back and re-listen to the initial discussion with TIM, though where Shepard asks him about his former crew. The tone is entirely dismissive of the idea.
Lumikki has it right. You don't need to go to Ilium, you have to go to the Citadel, which you can do immediately. 'Tone is dismissive'? That's nothing. He tries to dissuade you with a skeptical tone of voice? That's your evidence in support of your theory that tIM is insane?
'Agree to disagree' indeed.
#193
Posté 01 octobre 2010 - 05:59
Merlin 47
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P3G4SU5 wrote...
Mind if I ask what the problems were exactly?Merlin 47 wrote...
Heldelance wrote...
Quick question...
What would be the reaction if they were to add jumping and crouching onto ME3 or subsequent games?
I had enough problems with crouching in ME 1.
No thanks.
It was too easy to crouch at times during a firefight, simply depressing the stick. Also, crouching to go into low cover was also very clunky to me. On my second playthrough of ME 1, I avoided crouching as much as possible. When I first played ME 2, I was rather glad to see they fixed how crouching worked when going to low cover and got rid of it altogether.
#194
Posté 01 octobre 2010 - 06:07
Moiaussi
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Turin_4 wrote...
Illium is in the second phase of recruiting. I don't think the game even allows you to go there before that... will check later though. You really do need to go back and re-listen to the initial discussion with TIM, though where Shepard asks him about his former crew. The tone is entirely dismissive of the idea.
Lumikki has it right. You don't need to go to Ilium, you have to go to the Citadel, which you can do immediately. 'Tone is dismissive'? That's nothing. He tries to dissuade you with a skeptical tone of voice? That's your evidence in support of your theory that tIM is insane?
'Agree to disagree' indeed.
Yes, you can go to the Council after TIM has done everything in his power to convince the Council not to trust you, including leaking that you are working with Cerberus even before you awaken on Lazerus.
#195
Posté 01 octobre 2010 - 06:17
Turin_4
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Moiaussi, you've won. tIM is clearly insane, and doesn't want the Council or anyone else knowing about the Reaper or Collector threat, or trusting Shepard when she warns them about it.
#196
Posté 01 octobre 2010 - 08:23
Iakus
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Turin_4 wrote...
1) Possible, but given that EDI seems to know everything about everything, it's unlikely this information is eroneous.
Well, it's unlikely EDI made an error, certainly, but again, it's definitely possible tIM kept information compartmentalized successfully from EDI, isn't it? That's all I meant.
As for easing Shepard's doubts, I don't remember, did she mention that bit about 'strains his ability to multi-task' before or after being unshackled?
This is all from after EDI is unshackled: EDI Unshackled The comments about the number of projects is about 1:15 in
Shepard would not have had access to any of this information if Joker hadn't released her, which was itself an act of sheer desperation.
This then brings us to the question: Is TIM truly evil, truly incompetant, or is ME 2 a truly bad retcon?
Modifié par iakus, 01 octobre 2010 - 08:50 .
#197
Posté 01 octobre 2010 - 08:36
Phaedon
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Max Payne.smudboy wrote...
Nightwriter wrote...
Once again, I agree with iakus.Heldelance wrote...
Quick question...
What would be the reaction if they were to add jumping and crouching onto ME3 or subsequent games?
Oh, I'd like that. I don't feel like we enjoy much freedom of physical movement in ME. Shepard is very stiff and unwieldy in this way.
I really would like Shepard to be able to perform more physical animations in general.
Crouching
Sitting in chairs
Grabbing enemies as shields
Jumping
Performing biotic melee
#198
Guest_Trust_*
Posté 01 octobre 2010 - 08:59
Guest_Trust_*
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One of the main reasons I'm disappointed with ME2 is because of the marketing. It was full of ****.
#199
Posté 01 octobre 2010 - 10:40
Frybread76
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Having biotic melee moves would be cool, since we hear about Kaidan doing a "biotic kick" and we see Jack perform a "biotic punch" on a YMIR during her prison breakout scene. Although it would be cool, the focus should still be on shooting and traditional biotic and tech powers.
#200
Posté 02 octobre 2010 - 01:26
December Man
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Vanguards should have biotic melee. Like a biotic roundhouse kick to the face.
